Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Lord Griffiths of Burry Port

Report stage
Wednesday 28th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I have also put my name to most of these amendments. I agree with every word that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has said, and I do not propose to say anything more about them, this being Report. I just want to make two extra points.

As noble Lords know, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and I got back from Warsaw today. I was chairing 14 countries discussing how Ukraine could be helped against exploitation and modern slavery. I had to deal with questions from so many other countries among the 14 as to what on earth the United Kingdom was doing in the Illegal Migration Bill. To my shame—and I admit that I was ashamed of what is happening— I could not for one moment support the Bill to those MPs from other countries; because this was a parliamentary meeting, everyone was an MP. It was really very distressing for me to stand up unable to support my own country.

The other point is that not only will victims not leave traffickers—the traffickers will say, with perfect truth, “Either you stay with us or you go to Rwanda. Which is worse? We suggest you stay with us”—but it will have a marked effect on prosecutions. There are already far too few prosecutions, and I think the impact on prosecutions of perpetrators and the extent to which modern slavery will increase over the years as a result of this Bill will be enormous.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I spent the whole of last week in Strasbourg, where there was a very similar response from the 47 nations of the Council of Europe towards what we are doing here, with bewildered questions about it put in debate. I simply add that to what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said about her experience in Warsaw.

Church of England (Miscellaneous Provisions) Measure

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Lord Griffiths of Burry Port

Thursday 30th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I agree entirely with what the right reverend Prelate has said. The Measure came before the Ecclesiastical Committee, of which I am the chairman, and I am happy to inform the House that the committee deemed it expedient—that has been the word we have used since 1912—that this Measure should come before Parliament. Consequently, I am happy to report that to the House.

The matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, is an important issue that will need to be resolved at some stage. I agree entirely with what the right reverend Prelate has said about it. I hope that the Government will listen and that there will be some flexibility. I share her view that, when you are married, you look forward to all the good things and do not want to have to carry a piece of paper to the register office to get your marriage certificate. This is something that needs to be looked at, but in fact it has nothing whatever to do with the Measure currently before the House. I very much support the right reverend Prelate and hope that the Measure will be accepted.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I am totally unsure about procedures at this point, but I hope that I am in order to address a word to this amendment. I approve of, entirely agree with, and understand perfectly—which is even more important—the explanation given by the right reverend Prelate. I also understand the concern that has been raised in the tabling of this amendment. Having heard both statements, I feel—a Methodist always likes to pontificate about Church of England affairs—that we on these Benches can take note of the fact that this has been raised as a genuine concern and look forward to those measures that will be taken subsequently to address it in a more appropriate context.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Lord Griffiths of Burry Port

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued) & Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I cannot really think that that is how things will play out. Yesterday I heard that an agreement had been made, meaning that there would be no vote that evening. On the strength of that, I arranged to take my wife out for dinner at last. Then everything changed, and there was to be a vote— indeed, there were to be two votes. I slipped out before any of that happened to phone my wife and say, “Dinner’s off.” I simply make the plea that we distinguish between what is in the marriage contract and the conventions that we create for ourselves that help marriages, and other relationships, to flourish.

This is a convention; it is not a law. But in granting this convention and incorporating it in the Bill, we will improve the relationship between us and the people in the devolved Administrations. It is so simple. We have heard arguments about things being set in stone, and about the thin end of the wedge. Who remembers reading FM Cornford’s Microcosmographia Academica? One or two—these are the educated people. It was an argument about what happens in academic circles, where there is always a body of people who are resistant to change. They resist change on the grounds that it may be the thin end of the wedge, or set things in concrete, and all the other things I have been hearing in these wretched debates. Please let us realise that the softer acknowledgements of relationships, as well as the hard ones, help the debate, and the relationships, forward.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak, but over the last week I have listened to the various representatives of the devolved Administrations in this union of ours. Speaking as a totally English person, without any relationships in any of the three devolved areas—other than being married to an Ulsterman—I think that we English ought to be very careful and listen to what the devolved areas are saying to us. It was said earlier that the Government, and indeed many English people, might not really appreciate what devolution has meant. Perhaps it is time we did.

Church Representation and Ministers Measure

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Lord Griffiths of Burry Port

Thursday 6th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I am chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee and confirm what the right reverend Prelate said. We heard oral evidence from Church House and were satisfied that this is a non-controversial Measure, which I am happy to commend to the House. As the right reverend Prelate said, we held that it is expedient, which is our duty.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

It may be unusual for someone who has had no part in the proceedings until now to speak in such a debate. There were some sentences that the right reverend Prelate said that were perhaps lengthier and more convoluted than the report to which he was referring—but I congratulate the Church of England on taking into its systems procedures that seem to bring Methodism and Anglicanism much closer together.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Lord Griffiths of Burry Port

Friday 7th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

Yes, that seems to me to present one of the problems with the Bill.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, may I offer something at this stage? The ground has been well worked in the past and I have here some of the hearings that took place 10 years ago, when we discussed this matter. The whole question of the psychiatrist was raised then. Again and again, in discussing competence, it is the psychiatrist who seems to be claiming that someone lacks it. Making a judgment about people near to death is very difficult. Some 25% to 40% of patients at the time of diagnosis, and a similar percentage at other times on the cancer journey, suffer from depression or despair, but those conditions can be reversed. It depends on when you take the decision. Indeed, a neurologist suggested that in some conditions the whole issue of cognitive impairment must be taken note of. For example, patients to the lay person might appear relatively normal but could have severe cognitive impairment and therefore be unable to give informed decisions in such an area.

The training is not just for the people that these provisions have in mind. Once we move the debate, as we have consistently through this day, into the hands of experts, we are removing from ourselves the recognition that the experience of death and dying belongs as much to the non-experts as it does to the experts. With great timidity, I have stood up to speak at this moment, having heard in this morning’s debate from some of the leading lawyers and medical people in the land, and from people with a long experience of public life. I wonder whether it is true, for example, that a judge is, at the end of the day, the person in whom we can deposit all our confidence.

I remember the debates in my childhood that took place around the movement towards the abolition of capital punishment. You have a judge and a jury in that case, counsel for the defence and the prosecution, due process and forensic evidence—justifiable or not. You have the whole process of the law brought to bear on one case and one person, guilty or not guilty. The reason we went forward to abolish capital punishment was because of the possibility of an error of judgment—that with all that happening we might have got it wrong. As a simple lay person, I simply want to say that in this area it is infinitely more likely that we might get it wrong. It is for that reason that I stand against this Bill: because of the high possibility of getting it wrong, even when judges and the top medical people are involved.

My life sees me alongside dying people from first news to last rites and, indeed, beyond last rites—I have dealt with the people with whom one has to deal when they feel that they have not done everything that they might have done for mum. These are unhealed wounds that pastoral people have to deal with on and on, beyond the moment of death.

To think of the autonomy of the person as if that alone constitutes where this debate centres is, in my experience, utterly wrong. Consequently, when I saw the amendment that refers to,

“capacity to make the decision”,

I wondered whether the capacity we were talking about was that which pertained to the decision-makers rather than to the person dying. This is an immensely complicated area and it seems to me that we must question these rather forensic points that are being made about the capacity of this person, that person or the other person. Death and dying are individual in every case, and sometimes a friend can do more good than an expert.