Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Lord Bishop of Hereford

Monday 17th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, I also support the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. As she said, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester regrets not being able to be here this evening. As the noble Baroness made very clear, and as the noble Lord, Lord McColl, made clearer still, the amendment we are considering is a natural development of other legislation, other exemptions and other conscience clauses, and provides protection that I, along with others, think would be helpful and an improvement to the Bill.

The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, said that the absence of protection for registrars in the civil context contrasts markedly with the protection from compulsion that is given to the clergy or others within religious organisations. This protection has the potential to generate conflict between religious individuals and religious organisations, which will always be resolved in favour of individuals because the Bill will accord the religious freedom of individuals greater weight than the institutional autonomy of religious organisations.

The Bill effectively makes it impossible for religious organisations that have opted in to providing same-sex marriage to compel their members to conduct the ceremonies. If this conscientious objection clause was broader and protected individuals in circumstances where the state is involved, the interference would be justified. The fact that this protection applies only within religious organisations and interferes only with the inner workings of religious organisations seems to me unreasonable. Therefore, the interference cannot be justified. It is to that effect that I was very grateful that both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord McColl, made reference to five examples—if I was counting correctly—of exemptions already in law. Conscience clauses exist, as we have heard, in the Abortion Act, for doctors; in the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act; in National Health Service contracts; in the law on motorcycle crash helmets; and for atheist teachers.

Only last week, there was a report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which was addressing the legal scrutiny of this Bill. It included the following comments:

“We have heard significant arguments about whether existing employment and equality law provisions provide sufficient protection for employees who may wish to manifest their belief about same-sex marriage in the workplace. We note the particular concern for the position of teachers and civil registrars. Although we do not come to a final conclusion on whether additional protections are required, in part due to the complexity of the issues involved and the divergence of opinion upon them in the evidence we have received and in other material which we have considered during our scrutiny of this Bill”.

It went on to say that,

“we recommend that the Government reconsider these issues with a view to bringing forward amendments in the House of Lords to put in place transitional arrangements which deal with these concerns for those in post as registrars at the time any legislation is passed”.

I would be very grateful to hear the Minister’s comments on this recommendation.

Reference has been made already by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, to the national panel for registration. Quite a few of us will have received a briefing about that, which includes two paragraphs about a conscience clause. The first says:

“We are strongly opposed to any ‘conscience clauses’ enabling Registrars to ‘opt out’ of marrying same sex couples. We consulted widely within the LRS”—

the local registration service—

“during the consultation on equal marriage and we want to assure you that no member of the LRS has called for a conscience clause”.

Again, I would be very grateful if the Minister would let us know how that consultation was held, how many people were consulted and what proportion responded. I wonder whether some of those who might have wished to respond in another context or in another survey might have felt disinclined to do so because there is no conscience clause at the moment and because they did not therefore want, as some might put it, to put their head above the parapet.

In the second paragraph, the advice from the National Panel for Registration was:

“Registrars are local authority employees and are expected to carry out all the function that their role covers. At present this includes delivering civil partnership ceremonies. We do not believe that delivering equal marriage ceremonies will be any different. Allowing some Registrars to opt out of civil marriage for same sex couples would be discriminatory and cause serious administrative difficulties in delivering services”.

I have to say that that paragraph puzzles me in two regards. The first is when it states:

“We do not believe that delivering equal marriage ceremonies will be any different”.

That makes me wonder what we are all doing today and what this Bill is about if the panel is correct. Secondly, I am puzzled because, on the one hand, the panel is saying that it is not aware of any registrars wanting a conscience clause, yet, on the other, it is saying that if there were to be a conscience clause it would,

“cause serious administrative difficulties in delivering services”.

Yet, in areas where there are only a few registrars or even, as the panel might think, none, it is hard to see quite how it would be so difficult to deliver the services. That is rather contradictory.

I shall also quote the evidence given to the Commons Public Bill Committee on 14 February. Among the witnesses was the Dean of St Albans, the Very Reverend Jeffrey John. Jim Shannon asked him:

“Do you feel that registrars should have equal protection?”.

The reply of the Dean of St Albans was:

“I would not be against that, personally, I have to say. I think it would be sensible if local councils and so on made individual provision for registrars who seriously find that a difficulty, rather than simply sacking them. I would want to treat that on a humane, ad hominem basis”.—[Official Report, Commons, Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill Committee, 14/2/13; col. 151.]

I am delighted to agree with him on those points. That is another reason why I hope your Lordships will agree to ask the Minister to respond warmly and positively to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege.

Perhaps I may also refer to Amendment 53 and simply say how much I appreciated the Government making matters expressly clearer on that issue and going a long way in the direction that I and a number of others in this Committee would wish, for clarity’s sake. I hope that over this issue we will have a conscience clause and be able to establish a category. Even if the registrars are correct, there may not be many people in it. What is at issue is the category itself and protection for people, even if it is only a few people. We need to protect them and this seems to be the right way of doing it.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I have some hesitation in following the three very able speakers, with all of whom I have previously entirely agreed on almost every subject. However, there is a difficulty here. There should be a distinction between those who are in post now and those who will be in post. The transitional arrangements suggested by the human rights committee seem to be the right way forward and an appropriate compromise.

We have to recognise that one of the major jobs of a marriage registrar is to marry people, whereas, for doctors, abortion would not be a major part of their work. For atheist teachers and so on, it is not so difficult to come to arrangements. However, it is a particularly difficult situation if a new marriage registrar says, “I come in on terms whereby I am not prepared to do part of my job”, particularly in areas where there may not be many of them. However, there is a wholly different argument for those registrars who are already in post. The amendments we are considering have gone too far but the Government ought to look at some form of protection for registrars who are currently in post and who joined their local government service at a time when the idea of same-sex marriage was pie in the sky. I urge the Government to provide for a halfway, compromise situation that would meet what was specifically needed here.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Lord Bishop of Hereford

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, I support the amendment. Notwithstanding the comments that we have just heard from the noble Lord, I see his arguments as supporting the amendment rather than opposing it. He asked how one person can know the whole of the West Midlands area. I totally concur. How can they? Of course they cannot. That underlines the need to ensure that there is as broad a base of involvement with our chief constables as possible, with either a panel, a committee or some other grouping. The wider the grouping, the better it will be. If we accept the argument that no one person can possibly be representative, as is obviously the case, then surely this is an instance where we need to be as collaborative as possible. To put the PCC there, as the Bill does, as yet another focus on an individual, seems to undermine the very point that the noble Lord was just making.

We therefore support this amendment, because putting the power in the hands of another individual is to move it yet further away from being representative. As the PCC can be only one person he or she will not have the broad constituency that exists for panels or committees. I also wonder whether the noble Lord who has just spoken heard the same speech as I did at the beginning. I did not hear the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, say that the present system works perfectly; rather I heard her say that she is ready for amendments and changes but questions, as I do, whether these are the right changes. I am not saying that any system is perfect—none of us would make such a claim as clearly is would not be true. However, that is all the more reason for us to have such safeguards in place as we can.

If we go for the path which the Bill suggests of locating the authority in just one person, I would have strong concerns, which I am sure many other noble Lords will share, about the processes for appointing our chief constables and about what would happen in situations—which we all hope never arise, but which occasionally will—where there are suspensions or disciplinary issues. Nothing in the Bill addresses these issues, and putting the power in one person’s hands seems an unnecessary and unjustified risk. If we are to walk this path, and I hope that we do not, then surely this path, at the very least, needs to be piloted, tested and tried so that there is an evidential base showing it will improve a system which we all agree could be improved but we do not agree is broken. In that sense, it does not need fixing at any price. I hope that others will want to support the amendment and allow us to have as broad a base of representation and support as possible.

If we locate authority over our chief constables in one person, the police and crime commissioner, how will that individual spend his or her time? Locating the role in an individual without the clarity of processes for appointments and other things is a recipe for interfering with the role of the chief constable. If we are to have PCCs, we want these posts to be filled by people who are hugely able and talented, with energy and ability. Where is that energy and ability to be focused? How are PCCs to use their energy and time? Is there not a great risk that they will use it in a way that not only does not work collaboratively with the chief constable but threatens to interfere? The boundaries are not neatly drawn and we do not know exactly how the role would work out. We would want it to be a good working relationship, but, as we know, that level of power and authority risks being lived out and acted upon in a multitude of different ways. I fear that some of those ways would not be to the benefit of policing within our nation. I therefore ask noble Lords to support the noble Baroness’s amendment.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

We have been discussing this for some time but I want to add a few points. The first one is that Mr Bookbinder, whom many of us will remember, was of course elected from an area where one would wonder what sort of police commissioner would have been elected at that time.

I very much support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, for the reasons that have been given by so many Members of this House, but I should like to add one or two points. First, I also was very impressed by Ms de Grazia, in particular because she pointed out that, in the United States, the FBI monitors the elected police authorities. There is no body such as the FBI to monitor the new police and crime commissioners. Secondly, I have put my name to the first of the amendments proposing pilot schemes. I have done that very much as a second option, as I much prefer the option proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris.

It is suggested that the police commissioner would reconnect with the people. I live in the Devon and Cornwall Police Authority area, which the Minister knows very well because she was my MP, and I very much welcome her in her new capacity as a Minister in this House. She will know that the Devon and Cornwall Police Authority has 19 members, who represent areas ranging from the Isles of Scilly—for those of you who know what the south-west is like—right the way through to east Devon. In their way, they represent all corners of this part of the country where I live.

I suggest that we really ought to consider, with this pause that I would very much like to see, whether the police panel should not be elected. In electing the police panel, we would be creating an organisation very much like the police authority but which would have teeth and which would, under Amendment 31, appoint the police and crime commissioner. We would then have the connection with the public and we would have democratic elections, but we would not be putting all the power in one person.

I urge that we support the amendment and have a pause. I am very concerned that we should not plunge into very deep water without buoyant life jackets.