Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Brinton and Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Brinton]

It would be very helpful for other Members of the Grand Committee to be able to see the Minister’s letter to the noble Lord, Lord Monks, and any other replies that are circulated.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, before the noble Baroness rises to make her final decision, I intervene to make the point that there is sympathy around the Grand Committee for the case that she has been putting forward. I have only once been involved in legal proceedings. It was an industrial tribunal. I was advised that once the person who was taking us to the industrial tribunal had instituted proceedings, I should not be involved in giving her advice, against the possibility of misunderstanding, but I was very strongly of the view that she was making a mistake. Our barrister was the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, before he ascended to that role, and his pupil, who accompanied him, was the future Prime Minister. They were effective in arguing our case, and the tribunal found that there was no proper cause for compensation to be offered. The irony of the whole thing was that the fees of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, and whatever he provided to the former Prime Minister exactly equalled the money that we had been prepared to give her before she instituted the proceedings against us.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, I have listened with great care to everything that was said by the Official Opposition in this context. I do not understand why the Lord Chancellor should feel in any way moved to make use of this clause if he was not going to add appointed members to the proceedings. It states that it is for a particular kind of case, but why would he do it if he had no intention of making use of the opportunity to provide the extra advice?

[Baroness Brinton]

Might it not be helpful to consider which proceedings ought to have a panel rather than a judge sitting alone? Picking up the point I made earlier about diversity, particularly where there is a claim of discrimination or of inequality of pay, it seems to be an obvious example of where diversity on a panel might provide sage advice as well as reassurance to both parties that diversity is being taken into account.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Brinton]

I am sorry, I am trying to stand up but I am not very fast. I want to add to the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, about matters other than straight salary. The pension pot is one of them, but there are others that need to be taken into account, and I wonder if this has been overlooked or if it is intentional. If it is intentional, I would have real concerns, particularly about some of the pension issues.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, I hope the Minister will regard this as a late contribution to his consultation, but since the academic research on which it is based is 50 years old, and I have no idea whether it has been updated, he does not need to take it very seriously. I recall that when I set out in business 51 years ago, some very detailed academic research had been done in the context of executives—I am not necessarily talking about the shop floor—which found that each employee had a particular gradient for the ascent of their salary. If they went above a figure, whatever the figure was on the line, they were highly likely to fail. If they went below it, they were highly likely to seek another job. The research was sufficiently comprehensive to be an interesting observation and contribution to the process.