Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Debate between Baroness Brinton and Baroness Blake of Leeds

2nd reading
Monday 7th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who has participated in this very rich debate. I pay particular tribute to our three excellent maiden speeches. Well done to all three noble Lords. The reputation of the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, on the London Assembly comes before her; I know that she is a fearsome scrutineer, and I very much look forward to working with her.

I have to be honest: the noble Lord, Lord Grayling, has brought back some very painful memories. The last one concerned Leeds Bradford Airport—he was so positive about us getting a station next to it. Unfortunately, as I am sure he is aware, it is still on the drawing board. It reminds me that when I became leader of Leeds City Council, I had no idea how much of my time would be taken up discussing rail. Transport, yes, but rail: it was quite an extraordinary time.

I really welcome my noble friend Lord Cryer and thank him for his wonderful speech. Of course, coming from West Yorkshire, I took my kids on the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway. I worked very closely with my noble friend’s mother, for whom I have the hugest admiration; she is such a strong and powerful advocate of support for vulnerable women in particular.

Before I move on, I want to reference the narrow scope of the Bill. Of course, we will explore many of the issues in Committee, but I ask for patience: a lot of the debate will take place on the main Bill when it comes forward. As we have heard, this is one of the first major pieces of legislation from this Government, delivering a manifesto commitment, and I feel very privileged to speak for the Government at Second Reading. I am very grateful to all Members who have given their support to the Bill, while raising very pertinent questions. I welcome the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, my noble friends Lord Faulkner and Lord Liddle, and many others. Of course, I am also very grateful for the support of my noble friend Lord Hendy.

Going back to the beginning of the debate, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for exposing the problems and all the good points he made. I thank my noble friend Lord Faulkner for recognising that the Bill’s being introduced so early in the legislative cycle is a real demonstration of the Government’s commitment. Obviously, we would like to continue the briefing sessions we have had thus far. Several speakers have questioned the case for public ownership, and we acknowledged and expected that. I will keep making the point that the privatised railways are simply not delivering for passengers or taxpayers. We cannot keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

I am afraid that a culture of failure has been tolerated, although I acknowledge that there are exceptions, as raised by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe. Our approach has clear public support. Just last month, a YouGov survey found that 66% of people nationally agree that railway companies should be run by the public sector, and only 12% favoured private operation, as referenced by my noble friend Lord Browne. As we have heard, there is broad consensus about the need to end the current fragmentation and refocus the whole railway system on serving passengers and freight users. The Williams Rail Review, which we have heard about, commissioned by the noble Lord, Lord Grayling, shared these aims, and Keith Williams himself agrees that public ownership should deliver better integration.

My noble friend Lord Liddle hit the nail on the head regarding the delays in implementation: simply too many years have gone by with no action. We have had so many reviews, and now I am delighted that we are here talking about how we can start to move things forward. I have outlined some of the progress that has already been made in public ownership, turning around the performance of franchises that have failed in private hands. Public ownership means that the whole railway can pull together for the benefit of passengers, instead of different companies, as we have discussed. Public ownership will also pave the way for the wider railways Bill and for Great British Railways, properly integrating track and train. I do not think we can repeat this point enough. This would simply not be possible under franchising, or even under the concession model operated by Transport for London, as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott.

I shall give a few examples of what an integrated, publicly owned railway might mean in practice. First, we are looking at decisions about when to close the railway for essential maintenance—this can be so chaotic. It needs to be planned in a joined-up way, taking account of the needs not only of the engineers and those doing the work, but also the needs of passengers, minimising both the cost and the disruption involved.

Secondly, it will allow us to fix the delay attribution regime, which has created a wasteful industry of arguing over who is to blame for delays and moving money between Network Rail and train operators to compensate. Great British Railways will focus on identifying and tackling the causes of delay, making services more reliable.

Public ownership will allow us to address the overcomplicated fares system. We have heard several comments about the fares system today. It confuses passengers, erodes trust and actually turns people away and prevents them taking the services that they could and should take. It will help us avoid repeating the unintended consequences of franchising. As an example of the waste and inefficiency, I point out that at least four passenger train operators each has its own train crew depots in Newcastle alone, duplicating the costs of mess-rooms, management teams and other overheads. Keith Williams’s review found that there were around 75 different types of passenger train. This is an inefficient way to run any transport system and means that there is no consistency for the passenger. Such examples are repeated right across the system.

My noble friend Lord Faulkner gave a great exposé of what needs to be done to achieve modal shift: how we actually persuade people to get out of their cars or not to take the domestic flight. On integration, railways have been in a difficult environment for so long. Again, I was very pleased to meet my noble friend in Leeds for the first time, at the Middleton heritage railway—his passion for that came through in the debate today.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, raised important points about the accessibility of the railway and the inconsistent assistance offered by different train companies. I have heard the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, speak on the subject before: her passion and determination to make progress are touching and informative, and I really that hope everyone stopped to listen. Another unintended consequence of the fragmented system is that it can be so much more difficult than it needs to be, especially for disabled people. She raised important points about accessibility and, most importantly, the inconsistent assistance offered by different train companies.

Although there has been some improvement over the last few years—for example, the new two-hour booking window for assistance and the Passenger Assistance app—the proliferation of different booking systems means that, too often, customers still do not get the assistance that they have booked, and certainly do not get the assistance they deserve. This issue exists across all areas, including the number of different train designs, which all require different adjustments from disabled people. Over time, public ownership will allow us to meet passengers’ needs in a more coherent, consistent way.

I was disappointed that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, was unable to attend the beginning of this Session, but I am delighted she is here today. Her extraordinary commitment is a testament to the power required to bring the change we need. I know the Rail Minister has met with her about her recent experience, and I pay tribute to her for raising the public profile through what happened to her. It is so important that these stories are told, heard and, most importantly, acted on. As we know, the train operator concerned, LNER, is conducting a formal investigation into that specific issue. I also know that the Secretary of State and the Rail Minister will take a keen interest in ensuring that the findings are fully and swiftly acted on.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

Will the Minister agree to meet both of us to discuss other issues, such as the apps and the inconsistencies between the train companies? Things are not quite as shiny and rosy as she was describing them.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My apologies. I was not trying to make things out to be shiny and rosy; I was just trying to say there was a proliferation of different types. I would be delighted to meet with both noble Baronesses.

I also reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that Clause 2 simply provides that services must be secured by awarding a contract to a public sector company. It does not prevent us from improving services or terms if needed. There is nothing to prevent services being changed for the better when they come under public operation.

We have heard a great deal about actual performance. I will pick up on the aspects raised by several Members today. The noble Lord, Lord Young, made comments about strikes, for example. Every time the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, speaks, I think we pay tribute to his experience with the unions and the issues they bring. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, also asked questions on this subject. The approach has to be to work with the trade unions rather than against them. As the experience of the last few weeks has shown, we have already drawn a line under two years of industrial action, allowing train operators to get on with delivering the improvements that are so badly needed. It is not rocket science and it needs to be recognised and taken seriously.

We have heard about the impact on private investment. The noble Earl, Lord Effingham, raised his concerns about this. I do not believe the premise that the approach will stifle private sector investment. Since the start of the Covid pandemic, the costs of operating franchise passenger services have been borne by Government, not by private train operators. That means that private operators no longer fund their own running costs or investments. We have to really ask ourselves how much real private investment is coming in at the moment, and of course we need to encourage it where we can. I have already highlighted the financial savings to the taxpayer from no longer paying fees to private operators. Public ownership will improve services while reducing the cost to the public purse. I absolutely acknowledge my noble friend Lord Berkeley’s comments about value for money.

I draw attention to my noble friend Lord Liddle’s comments about transparency, oversight and scrutiny. I reassure him that the contrast is published so it can be seen. I am more than happy to circulate a copy to anyone who would like to see it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, raised the issue of staffing when services transfer. To operate services successfully in the public sector, it is vital that existing staff transfer with them. The regulations—commonly known as TUPE—are designed to achieve this outcome, preserving key terms and conditions for staff as they transfer. These regulations will apply to future transfers from private to public operation, as they have done previously. There might just be a small number of people who do not transfer, as we have heard—for example, if they are seconded into a train operator from another employer. This process, combined with the expert staff already working in DOHL, will ensure that both strategic and operational roles are filled by people with the right experience to succeed. We have heard fears expressed around continuity, and I hope my answer undermines that point of view. Continued access to the railways pension scheme will also be assured, as it has been in previous transfers to public sector operation.

Many points have been raised in the debate about the Government’s plans for reform beyond this short Bill, including the arrangements for Great British Railways. I know that Ministers will enjoy debating these issues further with noble Lords and others as we develop our plans and once the further railways Bill is before your Lordships’ House. Although that debate is for the future, I am grateful for the views expressed today. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that the appetite for this debate is real and urgent; we can feel the great enthusiasm for moving the agenda forward.

I also reference the comments made by my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe around growth and how we can bring all these issues together. The issues that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, raised about sustainability, ecology and other environmental matters will be fundamental.

I will give some more reassurance: Great British Railways will be operationally independent, with day-to-day decisions made by professionals and experts, not politicians. It will not mark its own homework. Our proposals will ensure sound oversight, and we will consult on them so that noble Lords and others can consider them and share their views. The Office of Rail and Road will continue in its role as safety regulator, building on its world-leading record in this area.

Let me also reassure my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that we are proceeding with this Bill first so that we can start the process of bringing train services in-house. As I have said, it is expected that the Bill will come forward in this Session when parliamentary time allows. It is a priority. Again, I reassure my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe of the wider issues that will come together when we discuss this.

There has been a great deal of concern about freight. The Bill sets out specifically to end the franchising of passenger services, so it has no impact on rail freight. However, there is a crucial future role for freight businesses, so the railways Bill will require Great British Railways to enable the growth of rail freight. The Secretary of State will set an overall freight growth target to ensure that it remains a key priority.

Many issues were raised about this not being centralised and the fact that devolution is absolutely critical. I will comment on my noble friend Lord Whitty’s concern about passengers as consumers. The proposed passenger standards authority should help to reassure the voice of passengers, as we have said all the way through.

I think we have dealt with the constraints of the contracts put in place for poorly performing operators, such as Avanti. I assure the House that the Secretary of State will not hesitate to act if the contractual conditions for early termination are met. We cannot burden the taxpayer with the cost of compensating private operators for otherwise ending their contracts early.

I am absolutely sure that we will come back to discussing rolling stock in Committee. I recognise the concerns raised and comments that have been made. I thank my noble friend Lord Hanworth for his contribution and reassure my noble friend Lord Snape that we are not bringing rolling stock back into public ownership.

Once again, I thank all those who have spoken today for their thoughtful contributions. It has been encouraging to hear the broad consensus in favour of industry reform to put the passenger and freight user back at the heart of our railways. I am pleased to be here today to get the reform on track. This Bill will allow us to start bringing services back into public hands, providing the strongest possible foundation for our wider programme of reform.