Covid-19: Response

Baroness Brinton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for not repeating the Statement, which I have read.

First, I want to ask about these Covid-19 symptoms: lack of taste and smell. The Minister will know that many healthcare specialists and the World Health Organization were making these warnings eight weeks ago, so can he explain why there has been a time lag in updating the definition?

I start by referring back to the question, on testing and tracing and the NHSX app, which I posed to the Minister yesterday and which he did not answer. I asked him whether it was true that in a Downing Street briefing that morning it was announced that the rollout of the app has been delayed until June. Is that true? When can we expect the rollout? Indeed, will we see the rollout of this app at all? If the Government will not use the app any time soon, does that mean that testing, tracking and isolating have to work smoothly and effectively at local level? That raises many questions.

We on the Benches welcome the wider rollout of testing, of course. Can the Minister update the House on whether the screening of all healthcare workers, whether they are symptomatic or not, has been successfully rolled out? What proportion of healthcare workers have been tested so far? Will they be tested every week? If not, how often? This is important, because it has been reported that 20% of hospital patients got Covid-19 while in hospital for another illness or treatment. So if routine NHS work is to be restarted, patients must be confident that they are in a Covid-free environment.

Can the Minister inform the House of the progress on antibody testing? Are these tests now widely available? If so, for whom? If they are not yet available, when will they be available? I gather from a widely available advertisement that I could have what is said to be a PHE-approved antibody test right now for about 100 quid. Would the results of that test be acceptable if I wished to use it to prove to an employer that I could got to work, go to school or teach at school?

On tracing, we on these Benches have long argued that the safe way to transition out of the lockdown is by having a test, trace and isolation strategy in place. Can the Minister tell us the current median time for test results to be received by someone when the test is carried out by Deloitte and other private sector testing facilities? More crucially, how soon do directors of public health and GPs receive the results of those tests?

Is that how it works: that the test is nationally organised and carried out, and the results are fed back locally? Who are they fed back to, and are those people responsible for tracking and tracing? Are they people the experienced local public health tracers or are they some of the 21,000 tracers who, we are informed, have been recruited? To whom are any or all of them accountable for tracking down people who are infected? As the Minister knows, we on these Benches believe that the Government should have made better use of local public health services. Who will inform people who have been in touch with a person with Covid-19 to isolate? Who is responsible for what happens to those people who must isolate, and for whether their families are supported in doing so? Where does the national call centre delivered by Serco fit in to this system? Can the Minister tell us by what date tracing and tracking services will be operational? Will they be operational by 1 June? I have raised with the Minister the issue of isolation. Why is that not mentioned as one of the key elements of the test-and-trace strategy?

Turning to care homes, I note what the Secretary of State said about social care last week: that he had thrown a “protective ring” around care homes. What constitutes a protective ring? The spread of coronavirus in care homes has become a crisis within a crisis. It was reported by the Guardian on 13 May that during the period coronavirus has been spreading in the UK, there have been as many as 19,938 excess deaths in care homes, well above the figure attributed to coronavirus by the ONS, leaving an urgent question about the causes of these deaths. None of this suggests anything remotely protective.

The reality is that there was no early lockdown of care homes, which was needed, and no early testing of people transferring from hospitals to care homes until mid-April. Prior to 15 April, the Government’s care home advice said:

“Negative tests are not required prior to transfers/admissions into the care home”.


That was not rescinded until mid-April, when the Government eventually issued their care homes strategy. Today, the CQC report says that 36% of care homes have Covid-19. That seems to be a greater proportion than that being admitted by the Government. Weeks later, do we yet have full testing of all residents and care home staff? No wonder Age UK say that this is “too little, too late”. When will they all be routinely tested? What is the date for that?

Turning to the R number, can the Minister guarantee that every easing of restrictions—such as asking children to return to school—is accompanied by a government statement on the expected impact on the R number and the underlying prevalence of the infection? If the R number rises to be greater than one in a region or local area, how will the Government deal with that?

Finally, I want to be clear that we on these Benches are desperate for the Government to succeed in beating this virus. We will and have supported the Government. In return, we expect transparency, as everyone does. Let us see the science. Give us clarity about what people are expected to do, truthfulness when things go wrong, as they inevitably will, accurate communication on all occasions and regular accountability to Parliament. We deserve no less.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement. The ONS statistics this morning showed that over 44,000 people have lost their lives, with the Financial Times estimating that the total figure is now well over 60,000 when a percentage of excess deaths is taken into account. From these Benches, we send our sympathies to all bereaved families and friends, and our thanks and support to the amazing front-line staff in the NHS, social care and community sector, and to others in key roles working to save lives and keep people safe.

The Secretary of State began his Statement by talking about flattening the curve, but yesterday an article in the British Medical Journal said:

“What is clear is that the UK’s response so far has neither been well prepared nor remotely adequate … Above all, the response to covid-19 is not about flattening epidemic curves, modelling, or epidemiology. It is about protecting lives and communities most obviously at risk in our unequal society.”


We agree.

I echo the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, about the acceptance, at last, by the Government of a third symptom, anosmia, but many other countries have more symptoms. France says that you should self-isolate if you have any symptom on a list of 10. Why do our Government still refuse to increase that list?

The Secretary of State has repeated his claim that he has prioritised testing in care homes, yet he still repeats that testing for everyone in care homes, whether staff or residents, will be only “offered” by 6 June. The Adult Social Care APPG is still hearing of care homes waiting for that “offer” of tests, and of others that have had tests but results still going astray or taking 10 to 14 days to be returned. On that basis, if Ministers are really prioritising care homes, why does the Statement announce testing for members of the public over the age of five now while people at the heart of the firestorm of Covid in care homes still have to wait up to two weeks before being offered a test?

Still on testing, can the Minister tell us the percentage breakdown of PCR testing results versus antibody testing results? If not, can he tell the House when this information will be publicly available? We need as many PCR tests as possible as part of an effective test, trace and isolate programme. How many of those carrying out testing are paid roles versus volunteers? A couple of weeks ago, the Minister told your Lordships’ House that testing would be extended through, among other things, a deal with Boots. Five days ago, Boots had an advertisement seeking volunteer testers taken down after public outrage that a company that had been given a commercial contract with the Government was relying on volunteers to carry out the work. Was using volunteers part of its tender to government? If so, does the Minister approve of companies using volunteers while pocketing public money in a contract?

On tracing, it is encouraging to hear that more than 21,000 tracers have been recruited, but today there are reports of people recruited receiving multiple emails congratulating them on being successful or attending online training that has completely fallen over and failed technically. Can the Minister say what percentage of those 21,000 have received full training and are now working as tracers? Last week, the Secretary of State said that local tracers would be used, whether local health or environmental health tracers, as well as central ones. Can the Minister say how many local tracers—that is, not Serco call-centre tracers or central NHS tracers—there will be from the 21,000?

The Statement asserts that the Government now have all the elements to roll out their scheme of test, track and trace, but I repeat that there is no focus on isolation for those who have to quarantine. Test, trace and isolate is used not just by the WHO but by many countries. What plans are in place to support people isolating, whether at home or in a quarantine unit, once lockdown is lifted? They will feel much more vulnerable at that point, when everyone else is moving back into their normal lives. Experience from Taiwan, Germany and South Korea shows that community health support for those in quarantine is more likely to make it successful. Again, countries that have been successful in containing the virus all had fully operational test, trace and isolate programmes up and running from day one. Given that each new venture the Government have undertaken during this crisis, as outlined in the BMJ article—from expanding PCR tests from a low base to manufacturing ventilators, supplying PPE and now the tracer app—has had a very problematic start, to put it kindly, are the Government starting to run full contact tracing now, using new staff in an area that has sufficient cases of coronavirus, before lockdown starts to be lifted but particularly by 1 June? It would be inappropriate for schools to return and people further to return to work without such a system in place.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses for their penetrating and searching questions. I will go through them systematically.

First, I want to say a few words, partly in response to the appeal for transparency from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and partly in response to some of the suggestions about the performance of the Government in their response to Covid. I assure the House that the Government approach this epidemic in a spirit of openness and transparency, and we would like to work in partnership with other parties. I simply reject the suggestion, consistent in some of the questions, that the projects undertaken by the Government have in any way been characterised by failure or disappointment.

I bear testimony to the huge achievements of those who have worked extremely hard to throw up remarkable schemes which have been enormously successful and massively mitigated the effect of this disease. The testing network, the ventilators, the lighthouse labs and the nightingale hospitals were all hugely ambitious ventures, greeted with scepticism when launched and accompanied by complaints while being thrown up. But their achievements have been enormous: they have had a huge impact.

I would therefore like to turn around the tone of this debate, to be a little more positive, and celebrate the huge achievements of those who have thrown their heart and soul into the response to coronavirus. I pay tribute to their achievements and to the personal sacrifices many of them have made by giving up their time, and even putting their lives at risk, to conduct these important roles.

Quite reasonably, both noble Baronesses asked whether the Government regard isolation as part of the programme. I can reassure them that isolation is absolutely the key point. The way to stop transmission is for those who have symptoms, and especially those who have tested positive, to shield themselves from the rest of society in order to prevent the spread of the disease. Everything that we do in the test and trace programme is ultimately to promote good behaviours by the British public, so that people who have symptoms will distance themselves from the rest of society, putting a brake on the disease. It is absolutely imperative, and at the heart of all our communications.

I pay tribute to the British public, who have made huge personal sacrifices during this lockdown. The culture of isolation will be an essential part of keeping a lid on the disease. The Government are committed to providing mental health support, and practical and cultural support, for those who are in a state of isolation. I thank both noble Baronesses for throwing a spotlight on that.

I want to convey to the House the enormous complexity of identifying the key symptoms of this disease. By any common sense, it would seem incredibly obvious how to spot Covid, but I have sat in numerous meetings running through the data and know how difficult it is to have a consistent set of symptoms that can be understood clearly and communicated simply to the public. The data on this disease is extremely complex. As I have said to the House before, this disease is a very difficult adversary, as characterised by the way in which symptom checking is so difficult. We have moved to a new and upgraded set of symptoms, and we may well have to move again. However, we are seeking to encourage absolutely anyone who has any symptoms to declare them and seek a test.

Perhaps I may move quickly through the questions put by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. I reassure her that the NHSX app is very much part of our plans. The Isle of Wight programme has been enormously successful and take-up rates have been huge. But it did teach us one important lesson: that people wanted to engage with human contact tracing first, and quite reasonably regarded the app as a supplementary and additional automated means of contact tracing. We have therefore changed the emphasis of our communications and plans to put human contact tracing at the beginning of our plans and to regard the app as something that will come later in support.

I reassure the noble Baroness that the testing of NHS and care staff is an absolute priority. Testing by the NHS of both groups is well under way. As announced by the Secretary of State, we are looking carefully at bringing in antibody testing to answer the question from staff who may query whether they have had the disease in the past, and to understand better what the role of immunity might be. The science is not firm; the lessons are not clear; but we need to understand the role of antibody testing and find out how it can help us combat this disease.

I advise the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, to be very wary of private tests. They vary enormously in quality, as I know through my own experience. The time after having the disease when you take the test impacts enormously on the test and the assumptions one can make about a positive test are not proven. You cannot currently share with an employer any impression that you might have immunity, on the basis of a test.

I reassure both the noble Baronesses that our involvement with local groups in the tracing operation is being energetically promoted. We have appointed Tom Riordan, the chief executive of Leeds City Council, to lead this part of the programme. He is running an excellent programme to work with local authorities, directors of public health, environmental health officers and local resilience forums to ensure that our tracing system is as local as it possibly can be. It cannot all be done locally: some of it is better done digitally, and the highly automated routines of the app are very good. Some of it must be done at scale on a national basis by the massive call centres that we are throwing up, but some of it is best done by local groups. Those processes are being put in place energetically and I thank GPs, local directors of public health and all those who are engaged in them. We will be putting together local Covid plans that will be implemented by the relevant local authorities. These will form an important part of keeping a lid on this contagion.

I also pay tribute to those who are helping to organise the major test centres, including Serco, and those who have stepped up to take roles as contact tracers. They are going through complex training at the moment; it is a challenging task. No one wants to hit the phone and tell someone that they have to isolate; it is a tough message to have to deliver. I have no doubt that there will be problems with this complex and difficult task, but I pay tribute to those involved and express my gratitude to those running the programme.

On care homes, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, rightly described, every death is a source of great sadness. However, I pay tribute to all those who have put their safety on the line by delivering tests in care homes. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that there is a website where any care home that wants a test can register their interest and get a response promptly. Any care home worker who wants an individual test can access a site where, as a key worker, their test will be prioritised. There should be no reason why any care home or care home worker should wait two weeks, as suggested in the question.

I put my hand up and explained that mistakes were made 10 days ago when, due to problems with our Northern Irish test laboratory, some care home tests were either delayed or voided. That was an enormously regretful situation, but, when you put together an operation of this scale at such pace, some mistakes will be made. We have done an enormous amount to rectify those mistakes. Bringing in the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, to run the operational side of our testing regime is a great step forward.

I will also say a word in defence of the volunteers who are working at our drive-in test centres. These are often furloughed workers who do not need paid employment, but they are spending their time usefully and are often committed and have a sense of public service. I bridle at the thought that they would be sneered at or in any way insulted. The role of Boots in recruiting them is entirely honourable, legal and appropriate for the times we are in, and I very much thank those volunteers who have dedicated their time and risked their personal safety to do this difficult and possibly risky job. It is not appropriate to suggest that there has been public outrage at this arrangement—quite the opposite. The British public support this kind of individual public service.

The recruitment of tracers is going extremely well indeed: 21,000 have been put in place, which is way beyond our initial expectations, and the training is going well.

This programme is developing very quickly. We will seek to make announcements about it later this week and there will be a further rollout next week. I am extremely proud of the achievements that we have made, and I thank everyone who is involved very much indeed.