Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th March 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I take the noble Baroness’s point. Indeed, the Bill has been drafted in a technology-agnostic way to cover all forms of energy infrastructure.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for her response and for the interventions on the points that I raised. A moment ago, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, appeared in the uncharacteristic role of being a protector and defender of the Government on these matters, and I am sure that that will be bankable by the Government at some stage. This is not a party-political point because it is not party politics; I am speaking on my behalf, as my own party has divisions on these issues. Over the past 30 years, we have had “stop-start-stutter” with regard to nuclear; if you do not want nuclear, perhaps “stutter” and “stop” are good options. But if nuclear is going to play a role, it has to be treated in a serious and coherent manner. It needs to be transparent, and we will be coming on to questions of transparency in a number of later amendments.

Returning to the core of my amendment—

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[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Will the Minister clarify her response on Amendment 20? If the cost of decommissioning, including of the site, goes beyond that which has been built in to the financial agreement at the origin of the scheme, is she saying that the Government would pick up the bill in those circumstances and that there is already a provision to provide for that, or is she saying that in no circumstances would the Government use public money for that purpose? If she is saying the latter, getting a nuclear power station such as Wylfa off the ground does not have a snowball’s chance in hell. There has to be a guarantee that ultimately the public purse will pick up the cost.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

All I can say is that all these issues will be negotiated up front in the agreement that we make with the potential operator of a new nuclear site.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I am sorry to press this further, but of course there will be negotiations and some sort of a deal will be made with those developers, but if the circumstances change, as happened at Trawsfynydd, and there are immense additional costs beyond what was anticipated, surely there has to be a public guarantee to those communities. Those communities have supported nuclear power on the basis that such an understanding exists. If it is not there, there will be a volte-face, and there will be a reaction against nuclear power. This assurance has to be given one way or the other. If the Government want to go away, think about what mechanism is appropriate and come back on Report, I accept that, but to say that in no circumstances would the Government pick up the tab is to kill off the prospect of those locations.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I entirely accept what the noble Baroness is saying, but circumstances will change and there will be costs that have not been anticipated. Those will be picked up either by the local community or by someone else. If it is someone else, who else can it be but central government?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

What I can say is that the Government will meet all our obligations to communities in decommissioning the site.

Subsidy Control Bill

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I think the noble Lord might have to declare an interest on that front, but we will let that lie. I will have to write to him with the specifics on this. Obviously, recruitment is an ongoing process that will continue throughout the next year.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Before the Minister sits down, I have what is meant to be a helpful question. Given that there may be a need for expertise in certain areas in the work of the CMA—expertise it does not have in house—could staff be taken on on a secondment basis to overcome the restriction in subsection (4) referred to earlier? This would provide the expertise for the duration necessary in undertaking specialist areas of investigation. I do not expect an immediate answer, but perhaps the Government might consider it.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very interesting point. It does have operational independence, and I am sure that is something it would be able to consider.

Subsidy Control Bill

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Committee stage
Monday 7th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I am grateful to the Minister for her response on the points that I raised, but does she accept that agriculture is a very different industry from the others covered by this sort of Bill and should have its own legislation? She mentioned consultation. What was the response to consultation from the agriculture industry and the farming unions?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

While I absolutely accept that the agriculture industry is completely different from others that will be covered by the Bill for many of the cultural reasons that have been brought up by others, I do not have the information that the noble Lord requests, but we will write, because we undoubtedly have it back in the department.

Subsidy Control Bill

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Committee stage
Monday 31st January 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, for tabling Amendments 1, 13, 16, 17 and 20, and all other noble Lords who participated in this debate. I say at the outset, in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that the use of the Moses Room is not intended to minimise the importance of this Committee stage. We agreed through the usual channels that this would be the best use of time.

Before I discuss each amendment in turn, I start by saying that the proposed UK subsidy control regime empowers public authorities, including the devolved Administrations, to award subsidies flexibly and quickly to meet their policy objectives. As noble Lords have said, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 amended the relevant devolution Acts to make the regulation of subsidies a reserved, or in Northern Ireland an accepted, matter. The devolved Administrations are, and will remain, responsible for spending decisions on devolved subsidies within any subsidy control system.

As the Minister in the other place clarified, the devolved Administrations have standing to challenge UK Government or any other subsidies in the Competition Appeal Tribunal in instances where the interests of people in the areas in which they exercise their responsibility are affected. Some provisions of the Bill engage the legislative consent Motion process, as they alter executive competence; for example, they confer new functions on DA Ministers. We hope that the devolved Administrations will agree with us on the importance of the Bill and be able to give us their legislative consent for the relevant provisions. Those discussions are continuing and I will keep the Committee updated.

We have engaged closely with the devolved Administrations throughout this process at ministerial and official level, not only on the LCM process but on our policy development ahead of the Bill’s introduction, in advance of our publication last week of the illustrative documents, and as we continue through the parliamentary process in the run-up to implementation. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, I confirm that the Minister for Small Business met the Welsh Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans, last Thursday—27 January. The meeting discussed the Bill as part of ongoing engagement to understand concerns on it and to provide reassurance.

I will begin with Amendment 1. Clause 1 provides an overview of what each part of the Bill will cover and establishes its application to other legislation. Clause 1(7) and (8) specify that if a subsidy is granted, or a scheme is created, using powers contained in either primary or secondary legislation, the subsidy control requirements will apply, unless an Act of Parliament specifies otherwise. The specific reference to an Act of Parliament here is solely to clarify that nothing in the Bill should be interpreted as conflicting with the fundamental principle that no Act of Parliament may bind a future Parliament; in other words, it reflects the constitutional reality and does not create any further exemption or special treatment.

Amendment 1, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, extends this clarificatory statement to cover the Senedd and the Scottish Parliament. In doing so, it fundamentally changes the character of this statement from a clarification to an exemption from the subsidy control requirements. The amendment would allow the Senedd and the Scottish Parliament to set aside the subsidy control requirements set out in the Bill, not only for the purpose of subsidies given directly in primary legislation, for which specific provision is made in Schedule 3, but for subsidies given by means of a power in that legislation; in other words, for all devolved spending powers in Scotland and Wales.

The discrepancy highlighted here between the Parliament of the United Kingdom and the legislatures in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales is not a matter of government policy but a reflection of constitutional reality. The subsidy control regime differentiates between devolved legislatures and Parliament in a way that respects the devolved legislatures and reflects this Parliament’s status as the supreme legislative body of the United Kingdom. The devolved legislatures have a unique constitutional status and we have ensured that the requirements placed on subsidies given directly in devolved primary legislation are proportionate and respectful of their status and processes. Schedule 3 sets out the specific arrangements that take account of this. None the less, it is important that the subsidy control requirements apply comprehensively and that we do not create exemptions.

As for subsidies given through powers conferred by Parliament or the devolved legislatures in secondary legislation or otherwise, it is essential that these are compliant with the subsidy control rules without exception. As it stands, the clause simply clarifies that express or implied repeal by a future Act of Parliament remains a possibility. It does not suggest that the Government will, on a whim, propose legislation that exempts a particular project or power from the subsidy control requirements.

It is absolutely right that subsidy control is a reserved matter: by its very nature, it affects how all public authorities in the UK, including devolved authorities, may exercise their spending powers. That is because its purpose is to establish common rules for different authorities with different interests and policy objectives to protect UK competition and investment. The Bill will also facilitate our compliance with our international obligations, including those set out in the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, which reflect exactly this constitutional reality.

I turn to Amendments 13, 16 and 17. Clause 10 concerns the making of subsidy schemes and streamlined subsidy schemes. Public authorities using a streamlined subsidy scheme will not have to access any subsidies they award under the terms of the scheme against the subsidy control principles. Streamlined subsidy schemes will have parameters for use that must be complied with by the public authorities using them, and can be made by a Minister of the Crown. Two illustrative streamlined subsidy schemes were published by the Government last week; I trust that they provide practical examples for noble Lords of the possible terms of these parameters for use.

Together, Amendments 13, 16 and 17 would have the effect that a Scottish Minister, a Welsh Minister or the Northern Ireland department would have the power to make streamlined subsidy schemes and lay them before their relevant devolved legislature. I will therefore take them together. The first amendment would allow streamlined subsidy schemes to be made by Ministers in Scotland or Wales or the Northern Ireland department. The second and third amendments would require such streamlined subsidy schemes to be laid before the relevant devolved legislature when made or amended.

Related amendments on this matter, regarding the role of the devolved Administrations, were made in the other place. The position of the Government remains that we will create streamlined subsidy schemes for public authorities across the UK to use to award subsidies that help UK-wide priorities. Streamlined subsidy schemes will therefore function best when they apply across the length and breadth of the United Kingdom. The Government will design these streamlined subsidy schemes such that they are fit to be used by public authorities in all parts of the United Kingdom.

Given that these streamlined subsidy schemes will be part of the UK-wide subsidy control regime, the appropriate place for them to be laid is in this Parliament. We have published two illustrative streamlined subsidy schemes and an accompanying policy statement that sets out for Parliament how the Government intend to use these schemes. We have worked with the devolved Administrations while developing this policy at both official and ministerial level. Officials will continue their close engagement with the devolved Administrations as the regime continues to develop. Finally, it is important to note that Scottish Ministers, Welsh Ministers or a Northern Ireland department, as primary public authorities, can also make schemes for use by other public authorities where that is within their existing functional powers; for example, the Scottish Government may choose to make a scheme for use by local authorities in Scotland.

On Amendment 20, Clause 11 sets out the terms for making regulations to define subsidies and schemes of interest or schemes of particular interest. The amendment would require the Secretary of State to seek the consent of each of the devolved Administrations before making regulations on subsidies, schemes of interest or schemes of particular interest under the clause. If this consent was not forthcoming, the Secretary of State would be required to make a statement to the other place explaining why they had chosen to proceed with the regulations without DA consent.

This amendment was also raised in the other place; the Government’s position on it remains the same. Regulations made under Clause 11 will define subsidies, schemes of interest and schemes of particular interest to ensure that the work of the subsidy advice unit is focused on subsidies and schemes that are most likely to cause negative effects on competition and investment in the United Kingdom, or which may do the same to our trade with other countries.

These regulations are key to the functioning of a reserved policy area. It is right, therefore, for the regulations to be debated and voted on here in the UK Parliament. I simply do not believe that it is appropriate to require the Secretary of State to seek consent even when the Secretary of State may ultimately proceed without that consent from the devolved Administrations on a reserved matter. A requirement to seek the consent of the devolved Administrations each time regulations are made under Clause 11 also risks introducing significant delays into the process, particularly if regulations need to be amended quickly in the future, such as in the event that economic conditions change rapidly. In such cases, the Government may need to legislate rapidly without consent, so the amendment would not achieve its aim.

The Government have had numerous discussions with Ministers and officials in the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive and we are committed to continuing to engage regularly with them. We have published illustrative regulations on subsidies and schemes of interest and of particular interest, in addition to the accompanying policy statement outlining the Government’s approach to this important question. Ahead of publication, officials have discussed the approach to these regulations with each of the DAs, taking on board their comments and suggestions as the policy has developed. We have also provided early sight of the draft regulations for comment ahead of publication. I assure noble Lords that this engagement will continue as we prepare for implementation of the regime. I also welcome any comments or questions that my noble friend may have regarding the illustrative products. Indeed, I welcome any further comments or questions from the devolved Administrations. I therefore humbly request that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her response, which I will come back to in a moment. First, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this short debate. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, spoke of respect and co-operation between Westminster and the devolved Administrations. That goes to the heart of what we are talking about. We need a regime, as far as these aspects of business are concerned, that has mutual respect and co-operation between all parties; otherwise, we are bound to find ourselves in a position where one body is trying to outdo the other and perhaps to gain political kudos for doing so. That is not what this should be about.

The noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, whose support I was grateful to receive, spoke about the Bill giving no consideration to the issues that arose in respect of earlier Westminster Bills taking powers from the devolved Administrations. That is the feeling that exists, certainly in Cardiff Bay and the Senedd and, as I understand it, in Edinburgh as well.

I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan of Partick, for her comments. She highlighted the failure of Westminster to adequately consult in good time. That, again, is an element of this lack of respect. By properly consulting in time, there is an opportunity to be able to amend proposals taking such consultation on board. But it is done at the last moment. I understand that one consultation took place last Saturday—not from this department, I think—on something that is happening today. That is no good. There has to be an active engagement between the Governments of our three nations, or four nations if we include Northern Ireland—I have not included Northern Ireland in this because of the complex situation there, but of course the principles apply equally.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, spoke of the need to have proper respect for devolved Administrations. That should run through every Bill. I noted the strong feelings that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who spoke mainly to Amendment 20, had concerning the consent of the devolved Administrations. The parity of esteem that the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, talked about goes to the heart of this issue.

The other amendments in this group will no doubt be taken at later stages in different guises, because they touch on subjects that arise in different parts of the Bill, but the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, said that the question of the relationship between the Governments in Cardiff, Edinburgh and here at Westminster “reflects the constitutional reality”—those are the words that she used. Those words will create a reaction in Edinburgh and Cardiff that will cause even greater problems.

We need to seek a new partnership approach. If the unity of purpose within these islands is to mean anything, it must be on the basis of respect between all three or four partners and not the idea that because Westminster was the original one and the all-powerful one, it can overrule or ignore what is felt in Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast. I believe that it is possible in the general context to get a formula that can reflect that need for recognition and respect, but it is not going to be achieved in the way that the Bill is drafted. The reaction in Cardiff and Edinburgh was totally foreseeable and it could have been avoided—and it needs to be avoided.

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[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I think I said that an equity investment is still considered a direct transfer of funds from one entity to another. The whole point of not putting in an exhaustive list is to avoid worry about what you leave out of a list, rather than what you have in it. I believe this is already covered by the Bill.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am grateful to everybody who has participated in this short debate. I am not sure whether the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, is happy with the response he got, but no doubt there will be opportunities to pursue that further. I also noted the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont. There is clearly an issue here that needs some further consideration.

I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord German, for his contribution. He was Minister for Economic Development in the Welsh Government. Was it 20 years ago?

Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Wednesday 17th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

Of course, it is for the commission itself to decide how to engage and conduct its inquiry, and whom to invite to participate in the process. As I have said, the UK Government will welcome the opportunity to provide evidence and to continue to make the case for the union. We shall continue to make sure that constitutional arrangements remain fit for purpose and enable our institutions to work effectively together to deliver for all citizens in all parts of the UK.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that Professor McAllister, who along with Rowan Williams is leading this commission, has made it clear that it will be receptive to any evidence in support of independence for Wales. If, in the light of that, the Welsh Government were to propose a referendum on independence, would the UK Government accept the result of that referendum?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

Of course, I could make the point that Professor Laura McAllister has stood twice as a Plaid Cymru candidate, so I am not surprised that her comments in the Senedd were very different from those of the First Minister, who said that this would not be a consideration of the commission. While we are, of course, interested in its work, it would not be right for us to pre-empt any possible recommendations. I remind the noble Lord that, in a St David’s Day poll this year, 80% of respondents expressed their support for the union.

Electricity Supplies from Europe

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

Undoubtedly, emotions ran high following the introduction of the new licensing regime in Jersey, but we believe that the measures that Jersey has put on its fishing licences are entirely consistent with implementing access under the Trade and Co-operation Agreement. Our strong and healthy reciprocal energy relationships with neighbouring countries have been based on good will for many years; it is in the mutual interest of all parties that we continue to uphold these positive relationships.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, will the Minister tell the House the anticipated timescale for more interconnectors between Britain and Ireland? Does the UK have any plans to set up a domestic cable manufacturing capability?

Ynys Môn: Economy

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Tuesday 2nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

The noble Lord raises an important point in an area of concern. Freight through all Welsh ports is down more than 50%, unlike freight through most UK ports, which have now recovered to pre-Brexit levels. We have no obvious answer as to the question why, as the landbridge between Ireland and Wales remains a vital transport artery, with significant cost and time advantages over maritime routes. The Minister for Wales in the other place has a meeting scheduled with the relevant freight transport association to discuss these issues and what we can do about them.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome today’s announcement of government backing for the hydrogen hub at Holyhead put forward by Menter Môn and Anglesey Council, and indeed proposed in the Senedd a year ago by Ynys Mon MS Rhun ap Iorwerth. Given the aspiration of Anglesey, seen as the “energy island”, what steps will the Government take in partnership with the Welsh Government to ensure that the Wylfa labour force, with its huge skill base in energy-generation technology, is retained in the local energy sector and is not lost to the region?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an extremely good point about trying to preserve the corporate knowledge within Wylfa and I will certainly take back this concern and proposal to the department. Wylfa still has the potential to be part of the north-west nuclear arc, along with the national thermal hydraulic research centre, the Trawsfynydd site for SMR, AMR and, potentially, medical radio isotopes, alongside Bangor University, which is a centre of excellence for nuclear studies.

National Grid: Capacity

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Monday 11th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

The noble Baroness asks, on the surface of it, a perfectly straightforward question, to which I would love to be able to give an equally straightforward answer. The most I can say is that following the long-awaited but much-welcomed energy White Paper, an energy Bill will be introduced as soon as parliamentary time allows. The measures will intend to realise the ambitions and policy commitments set out in the White Paper, as well as to drive forward the transition to net zero.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

Will the Minister confirm that the Government are standing by their earlier commitment—of central relevance to these issues—namely, to locate the proposed national thermal hydraulics facility in Anglesey?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely correct; the commitment to build the national thermal hydraulics facility was made when we launched the nuclear sector deal in November 2018. It remains the Government’s ambition to do so. The issues recently identified, which have resulted in conversations about this, relate to the need of the Rolls-Royce-led UK SMR consortium to have a slightly larger facility delivered sooner than had been proposed in Ynys Môn. The UK and Welsh Governments are in discussion about how to resolve the planning and timing issues quickly, and they may be able to start the construction of just the facility needed for the Rolls-Royce machine before they proceed with the rest of the site.

Hydrogen Sector

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Monday 30th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right to point out the progress that we have made on buses. The Government have supported the use of a range of low-carbon bus technologies, including the deployment of 62 hydrogen buses and supporting infrastructure. Our £23 million hydrogen for transport programme is increasing the uptake of other fuel cell electric vehicles and growing the number of publicly accessible hydrogen refuelling stations. We have also been supporting public and private sector fleets to become early adopters, through the £2 million fuel cell electric vehicle fleet support scheme. This initiative is very important to the Government in trying to provide a number of different strategies and support mechanisms, not just financial ones.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the reference to hydrogen in last week’s 10-point plan. The Minister will be aware that the energy sector has a long track record in Gwynedd and Ynys Môn. Can she give some indication of how the 10-point plan will help the many relevant industries in Wales play their part in supporting the UK’s commitment on net zero?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that great interest and activity have already been shown across Wales in low-carbon hydrogen production and use, from research all the way through to application. Low-carbon hydrogen could play a key role in decarbonising heavy industry, particularly in Wales. I know that this is being actively looked at through the Welsh Hydrogen Reference Group. I point the noble Lord particularly towards the net-zero hydrogen fund, which will provide £240 million of capital support alongside industry investment to increase low-carbon hydrogen production right across the four nations of the United Kingdom.

Agriculture Bill

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 17th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for his amendment, and I am very grateful to him for his advance notice of the points that he made. I will deal with Amendment 68A, in the name of my noble friend the Duke of Montrose, at the same time.

As the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, rightly observed, Clause 32 provides that the Secretary of State may assign functions to a body relating to, first, collecting, managing and making available information regarding the identification, movement and health of animals, and, secondly, the means of identifying animals. These functions are vital for the purposes of disease control, for complete movement traceability of all animals across UK borders and for UK trade negotiations with international partners. The meat and livestock sectors have championed this new service and are strongly supportive of it.

In Committee, we introduced a government amendment providing that the Secretary of State secure approval from the devolved Administrations for orders assigning functions exercisable in relation to Wales, Northern Ireland or Scotland to the AHDB, such as the handling of movement data shared with the AHDB by those Administrations. We have always said that we would engage intensively with the devolved Administrations prior to making any UK-wide orders.

The wording in Section 89A(2) of the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006, as inserted by Clause 32, requires the Secretary of State to seek approval from the devolved Administrations for making orders assigning functions exercisable in those Administrations. Where any such function is assigned, it will be following full discussion with, and approval from, the devolved Administrations. These discussions will give the opportunity for any further concerns to be raised. Therefore, any appropriate limitations on species covered or geographical extent for any function relating to identification and traceability of livestock will be specified in the order and, I repeat, subject to approval from the devolved Administrations.

Regarding how livestock traceability will work between UK Administrations, each Administration will run its own multi-species traceability service. Currently, there is a GB-wide service for cattle and a service for pigs in England and Wales, but in the future, traceability will be fully distributed. The Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board needs to be able to process movement data on animals that are not in England, or that have crossed borders within the UK, to provide a complete picture of an animal’s lifetime traceability in disease-control situations. This is termed “the UK view”. It will enable livestock identification and movement data collected by each Administration to be seen by others and to be available to veterinary officials in all UK Administrations. I hope that this reassures my noble friend the Duke of Montrose.

I take issue with the assertation by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that this Government do not do devolution. As the Lords’ spokesperson for Wales and someone who is proudly Welsh, I assure him, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, that we pay careful attention to preserving the devolution settlement in all three departments of which I am Whip.

The AHDB will also run the livestock unique identification service on behalf of England and Wales. This controls the issuing of official individual identification numbers to animals. All data will be handled in accordance with data sharing agreements and protocols agreed by all UK Administrations. No Administration will be able to use data outside the terms of that agreement.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering asked about the status of the negotiations on the common framework. In the last debate, my noble friend the Minister said that the UK Government have been working closely with the Welsh Government, the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland, and the Scottish Government, to develop a UK agriculture support framework. We expect to be able to agree this soon and we will update the House shortly.

I believe that this provides the assurance that the assignment of functions by the Secretary of State under this clause will be fully accountable to the devolved Administrations. With these assurances, and my belief that there is genuinely no clearing up necessary, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for her response, and to the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh, Lady Northover and Lady Wilcox, and the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for their input in this debate.

Quite clearly this is not a subject area where one is seeking controversy; rather one is seeking to resolve a practical problem which might arise if it is not planned for in a way that avoids such eventualities. There must be clear demarcation of responsibility for all four bodies within the UK that have various responsibilities in these fields. They have to know what their responsibilities are and how far they go. To the extent that from time to time there has to be some cross-border activity, by the nature of the market, there must be clear ground rules on who does what and who communicates with whom.

To the extent that the Welsh Government have indicated that they see a way forward on this, that is fine, provided that it is the same interpretation on the other side of Offa’s Dyke, and in Scotland and Northern Ireland in relation to their powers. If we can get a situation in which it is clear to all what their responsibilities are—where they start and where they end—we can avoid difficulties. If we do not, we will find ourselves in quite a complex situation with a lack of clarity with regard to responsibility.

I conclude with this. There is a saying, particularly in the farming fraternity, that good fences make good neighbours. In this instance, there has to be clarity, understood by all, on who is responsible for what fence and for what function. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Nuclear Power Stations

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Monday 24th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist]

The noble Lord is quite right to introduce other forms of energy generation. The truth is that we need everything. If we are to reach zero carbon by 2050, we need a combination of renewables, energy conservation, carbon capture and storage, and battery technologies, as well as nuclear. As far as I know, the energy White Paper will address a number of these issues. Overall, the nuclear strategy will fall into three cross-cutting themes, as set out in the paper, that will result in greater economic opportunity: nations, regions and places; mobilising capital; and harnessing innovation.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to the SMRs. Did the answer that she gave on the involvement of nuclear power stations in 2035 assume that no SMRs will be active by that time? Is that the Government’s policy and, if not, when will the SMRs come on stream?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist]

The Government’s policy is firmly to encourage the development of both AMRs and SMRs in a number of sites, including—the noble Lord’s own passion—Trawsfynydd and the site in Cumbria. He will have seen the announcement that Rolls-Royce is looking at both sites. We are still investing a lot of R&D money in consortiums that aim to provide small nuclear reactors that contribute to the national grid, although my original Answer did not include the contribution that they could make.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist and Lord Wigley

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, I have spent much of the past five years involved with energy matters both here and abroad, albeit specifically interconnection and the generation of green energy. A nation's energy supply is so important a part of both industrial strategy and national security that in many countries the energy ministry is second in importance only to the Prime Minister’s office. It is surely right therefore that central government retains responsibility for determining the strategy that will ensure the security of supply for the whole nation through our common national grid.

The Silk commission recommended an increase in the threshold for devolved energy consenting for new projects from 50 to 350 megawatts—and this level I thought was agreed by all parties. Further, the Energy Act 2016 granted localised decision-making for all onshore wind projects. Surely the two together strike the necessary balance between devolving authority for many renewable energy schemes, for example the Swansea tidal lagoon, and allowing the Government to retain responsibility for larger schemes of more strategic significance to electricity infrastructure stretching beyond the confines of Wales.

Most of you will be aware that this is the first Bill that I have seen coming through this House. What a meaty one it is. I cannot hope to match the eloquence of the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Elystan-Morgan, but it did bring to mind the final two lines of the poem commissioned from the national poet for the opening of the fifth Assembly in Cardiff this year:

“Sooner may two men meet than two mountains”.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, once again it is a delight to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist. I had the pleasure of speaking after her when she made her maiden speech a few weeks ago on an earlier stage of this Bill. On this occasion, I am afraid that we shall not see exactly eye to eye on the question of the limitation, since I shall speak briefly to Amendments 99 and 101, which seek to remove the 350 megawatt limit on the devolution of energy projects to Wales.

Having given Scotland complete control over its natural resources—with no limits, so for those looking for a United Kingdom policy, that has already been given away—the Government are proposing to devolve energy in Wales only up to a limit of 350 megawatts, with anything above that threshold being reserved to Westminster. This arbitrary constraint on the ability of Wales to control its own natural resources has stirred many emotions in Wales. It seems archaic and contrary to the spirit of devolution that Whitehall will still decide how and when Wales can harness many of its most precious natural resources.

I shall outline what this means in practical terms by reiterating an example highlighted by my colleagues in another place. Responsibility for the 320 megawatt Swansea Bay tidal lagoon would be devolved under the current Bill. However, the proposed Cardiff and Colwyn Bay tidal lagoons, which are identical apart from scale, will be reserved to Westminster. This does not stand up to any test in logic.

The Government have chosen to use the cover of the Silk commission’s recommendations—which, I recognise, also suggested a possible limit of 350 megawatts. However, if they are going to do so, does the Minister not agree that all of the Silk recommendations must be treated with the same respect? The Government most certainly are not doing this in other instances, so why pick out this one? As the Minister will undoubtedly recall, the 350 megawatt limit was agreed to in a cross-party Silk commission discussion on the understanding that other parties would support the devolution of policing and broadcasting. Does he recall that meeting? I have the references.

I conclude by noting that this is once again an example of how we are asked to accept second best in terms of devolution of energy. We are asking only for the same deal that is afforded to other nations. The 350 megawatt limit that the Bill imposes stops Wales effectively harnessing its world-class renewable resources —its wind, its coastline and sometimes even its sun. As my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas emphasised, these are important ingredients for the future of the Welsh economy. Our resources belong to the people of Wales and now is the time for the law of the land to recognise that.