Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Berridge and Lord Dobbs

Committee stage
Friday 21st November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

I will just follow up my noble friend’s remarks. He is a noble friend; I campaigned for him several times in his constituency when he was an MP, and I will remain a friend of his, I hope. I want very quickly to follow up on his remarks about what we might call the “Pannick paradox” between the decision to ask for an assisted death and the decision to refuse any further medication or help that will continue your life for a short time. My noble friend is right. They are not the same: a decision to ask for a death when you know that death is inevitable, and one simply to deny any further help or sustenance, with starving yourself to death the only way of achieving that end, are very different. The difference is that if someone is able to ask for a calm, assisted death, they will die with dignity and not in squalor, having forced the system to cut off any hope of further life. My noble friend knows that I do not agree with him on this, but I absolutely believe he is right in saying that there is a fundamental distinction. That is one reason why I support the Bill.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

It might help noble Lords to know that we are being followed on Twitter. This issue—I am aiming to save time—of the Pannick dilemma has been commented on by Philip Murray, who is a law lecturer at Robinson College in Cambridge. He said the following, and we may wish to seek his advice:

“I find it astonishing that various Lords”—


forgive me for the embarrassment—

“including those who should know better (Lord Pannick …), keep conflating withdrawal of treatment and assisted suicide. The act/omission distinction has underpinned morality and law for millennia”.

I hope that either of the noble Lords, Lord Pannick or Lord Dobbs, will reach out to this gentleman to aid all noble Lords so we will not spend any further time on that dilemma.

Schools: Return of Students

Debate between Baroness Berridge and Lord Dobbs

Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, the Secretary of State meets the education unions weekly, and officials and other Ministers are in touch regularly with the unions. We have worked closely with them, particularly on developing the guidance. In the next two weeks, guidance will be issued to make it clear what is expected of schools regarding curriculum and attendance in September, so that they will have time to plan before the end of the summer term.

[Lord Dobbs (Con) [V]]

My Lords, six children have, sadly, died with Covid, yet nearly 2,000 children are killed or seriously injured every year in traffic accidents, which suggests that children suffer more harm from being driven to school than being in school. Does my noble friend agree that the scare stories circulated by some, including teaching unions, about the dangers of returning to school are as dangerous as the anti-vaccine lobby? Does she also agree that much more long-term harm will be inflicted on children from not going back to school than there could possibly ever be from them receiving their education?

[Baroness Berridge]

Indeed, my Lords. Away from the flurry of the headlines and speaking to academy trust leaders, I know that they do not just want their children back in school but are desperate for them to be back in school, because they know that it is the best place for them to be educated. They also know that it is best for their mental well-being to be in a school environment. They have been working tirelessly, many through the school holidays, to ensure that young children are in school. They are particularly concerned about vulnerable children who have not been in education. I agree with my noble friend: we want and look forward to welcoming all our children back to their education settings in September.

Public Health England Review: Covid-19 Disparities

Debate between Baroness Berridge and Lord Dobbs

Monday 8th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge [V]]

I assure noble Lords that the excellent work of Professor Sir Michael Marmot over the last 10 years or so will be reviewed and worked on by the Minister for Equalities, looking at all the different impacts and inequalities the virus has exposed in our communities.

[Lord Dobbs (Con) [V]]

My Lords, to judge the risks on both sides of this very difficult question we need precise information. I hope my noble friend will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the statistics show that the 40,000 Covid deaths cover not only those who died from Covid as a primary cause but those who died with Covid as a secondary cause—in the same way that many men will die with prostate cancer but not necessarily from it. The distinction is crucial. Can my noble friend give a clear breakdown distinguishing between primary and secondary Covid deaths and say how many of those deaths would have been expected to occur within the next two years even without Covid? If she does not have that information, would she be kind enough to place it in the Library at the first possible opportunity?

[Baroness Berridge [V]]

My Lords, the Office for National Statistics has analysed the death certificates: on the death certificates where Covid is mentioned as a cause of death, over 95% had it as a primary or underlying cause. That does not exclude other underlying conditions; in March and April this year, over 90% of deaths from Covid had one other underlying health condition mentioned on the death certificate.