Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Berridge and Baroness O'Loan

Committee stage
Friday 27th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

For the accuracy of the record, I am grateful that my noble friend referred to a story that I presented to him at lunchtime because it was relevant to Suffolk. Marie Curie’s overnight nursing service—the part of the service that offers palliative care in Ipswich and Suffolk—will end after the NHS withdrew funding. The service supported 470 patients and delivered 15,385 hours of vital care in the last financial year. It relates to my noble friend’s particular area of the country. I know I was not here at the start of the group but, for the accuracy of the record, I have intervened.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, for these amendments. There is a very serious issue here, evidenced by the nature of the conversation we are having, because it is a conversation about realities. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, said that it was time we started using the language that described exactly what we are doing. I think that is what we are doing now. We are talking about how this is going to be paid for and who should pay for it. How should it be managed?

We have seen the Canadian experience. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, spoke about wheelchair access. In Canada, it is regularly reported that people who cannot get wheelchairs are offered assisted dying instead. I grant you that that would not necessarily apply in this particular Bill, but you can see how, with mission creep and with changes, this could happen. We could end up in a situation in which we are making the kind of decisions that the noble Lord just referred to in this matter.

I must declare that I have an interest, because I am a trustee of a hospice—an unpaid trustee, I would add, and it is not in my register of interests for that reason, but it is relevant to this debate.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, defined the variety of costs attached to the proposals quite clearly. I have to ask, following the noble Lord, Lord Deben, if the estimate of £2,000 is in any way realistic for providing a service which requires for each individual the cost of clinicians, the commissioner, panels, admin staff, communications, monitoring and audit, et cetera. That is to say nothing of maybe a national help service, independent advocates and all sorts of other things. We know that to die at Dignitas and places like that costs an average of £10,000, not £2,000. I would like the noble and learned Lord to ask the Minister if we can have a proper assessment of what is currently planned might cost and where it is to come from.

I have another question for the noble and learned Lord, because it is not the Government who pay; it is us. It is taxpayers who pay. If the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, rejects these proposals or something which approximates to taking the cost away from the National Health Service—as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, says, it is in such a parlous state that palliative care services are being extinguished or diminished very significantly—does he think that the public and the voters will think well of a Government who fund suicide while not funding hospices properly? Does he think it will enhance trust and confidence in the Government?

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Berridge and Baroness O'Loan

Committee stage
Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O’Loan (CB)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that helpful intervention, but we do not know what the outcome of that meeting will be. I think I have the right to make my remarks.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to the amendments in this group. I did not table one in my name about a group of people who are also subject to deprivation of liberty safeguards. I am pleased to hear the noble and learned Lord repeat his offer of a meeting, which was made last Friday. I was disappointed not to receive an invitation to a group meeting to discuss the various groups of vulnerable people who may need additional conditions. Had there been such a meeting, I would not be taking up time today or on the later group, where I had offered to withdraw amendments had a meeting taken place.

There is another group of people under deprivation of liberty safeguards who are not under the Mental Capacity Act. These are young people who are under the High Court jurisdiction of deprivation of liberty safeguards—called High Court DoLS. I thank the President of the Family Division for ensuring that there is research available on this group and the Children’s Commissioner, who has visited very many of them. Those young people are so troubled that their liberty needs to be restricted, but they cannot currently be detained under Section 25 of the Children Act in a secure children’s home. That was for a variety of reasons. One was that we ran out of places, but another was that some of them were in such a situation that they could not even bear a communal secure environment like that.

I did not table an amendment also because under the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill these young people will possibly be brought under the statutory jurisdiction of the Children Act, though it would not be all of them. There were 1,280 applications made last year, and around 90% of them were granted, so this is not, as was originally envisaged, a handful of young people. Are any of those young people also ill? Are noble Lords content that at 18 years and one day old they should have assisted suicide raised with them? Are they also happy that if a child has been under mental health treatment but is also physically ill, at 18 years and one day they come under the jurisdiction of this Bill? The same applies to those detained in a young offender institution. Sadly, due to the Private Member’s Bill process, I do not believe that there has been any consultation, a White Paper or pre-legislative scrutiny to flush out the details and data that we need to properly legislate.

I am grateful to the Children’s Commissioner for attending the Select Committee, but I was surprised that the Public Bill Committee in the House of Commons did not hear from her.

In addition to the issue of those who are 18 years old and one day, some of whom are still under the jurisdiction of the Children’s Commissioner until they are 25 and under the jurisdiction of the local authority, it is not wrong to say that there will be enormous societal change that affects children. I would be grateful to know, whether now or in the meeting that the noble and learned Lord has promised, whether he is aware of this group of children and what meetings he has had to establish how many would be affected at 18 years old, how many are in this group and how they can be protected by additional conditions and safeguards.