Health: Stroke Care

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 13th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I can give the assurance that the noble Lord seeks. The NHS Commissioning Board authority has made it very clear that stroke networks have been immeasurably helpful to patients and there is every intention of continuing with them.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, have the Government monitored the impact of individual health budgets which were introduced by the previous Labour Government? What effect have individual health budgets had on the commissioning and delivery of stroke services?

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend is right: individual health budgets have enormous potential in the case of stroke patients. I do not have any specific data on that in my brief, as it is still relatively early days for the personal health budgets. However, if I have further information to give her, I will gladly write.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, my name is not on these amendments, but I want to make a couple of points, partly because I have a longstanding interest in this and partly because in recent weeks it has been a very personal feature in my life.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner, is absolutely right to keep pressing the Government to come up with a definition of integration. Like him, I struggle to know what it is. I know the factors that should be focused on, which create or prevent integration. One is the overall sense of purpose in your work. For many of the health and well-being boards, the key role will be in the prevention of illness. The biggest challenge for hospitals and the acute sector, which perhaps they have not yet woken up to, in the way in which they are going to have to work with health and well-being boards is about discharge from hospital and ensuring that people who have been ill, particularly older people, have access to nursing care in the community that enables them to live with long-term conditions.

One of the most important factors is money. The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, made me flash back to many a meeting that I have been involved with, but one in particular in a borough in south London where the local Age Concern had an excellent handyperson scheme. They worked with the OTs to dramatically speed up the process of older people being assessed and given aids and adaptations that enabled them to live with long-term conditions. I well remember sitting in the meeting when somebody from the health service announced that the health service were going to start their own rival service. Why? Because a pot of money had come along and they were going to use it. Patterns and flows of money have been the bedevilment of integration, very often.

Integration can work well, particularly when both parties take a strategic view of what they are supposed to be doing. I cite again the case in Islington, when my colleagues were running the council. The local authority took the decision that it would do everything related to children and the PCT decided that it would take responsibility for adults and long-term care. That is a very imaginative way to start addressing problems at a strategic level. If you address them properly at strategic level, the greater the chance that when it comes to individual cases, you will indeed get integration of services around a person.

I am therefore pleased to see Amendment 336, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. I would just query one point with him on drafting. As drafted, there is a slight problem, because it seems to imply that any move towards integration has to be approved by the commissioning board. I know that is not what he intends. Small-scale schemes should just go ahead without reference up the line, so I think he needs to look at the wording, but that is very helpful.

The noble Lord, Lord Patel, is absolutely right. Three different outcomes frameworks setting the agenda for the three different parts of what will make up a health and well-being board is wrong. It is only when people in the NHS understand that they have to help social care outcomes to happen that we are really going to move forward towards integration as a mindset for professionals and a reality for patients.

[Lord Warner]

Could I just clarify for the noble Baroness that I do not claim that my wording is perfect? I brought the National Commissioning Board in—slightly against my better judgment, I have to admit—because it has the responsibility for, in a sense, approving the commissioning arrangements and spending the money. My instincts were that it would not support this unless it had been consulted and was satisfied with the commissioning arrangements.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, I shall be brief but, as always, my noble friend Lady Masham was very persuasive. I have always felt, as indeed she does, that there is a powerful case to be made for the statutory regulation of healthcare assistants not only in hospitals but in homes, particularly old people’s homes. As we heard during the debate on the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lady Emerton, the Government are entirely persuaded that at present the regulation of such individuals could not be done by statute. I must say that I feel uncomfortable about that.

Is there any means by which the Government can suggest a mechanism whereby, perhaps in consultation with the Care Quality Commission, the terms of voluntary registration of healthcare assistants could be based on a set of agreed principles which were accepted generally by all the professions concerned? As it exists at the moment, voluntary registration is not adequate or strong enough and needs to be strengthened. Therefore, while I support in principle the ideas put forward by my noble friend Lady Masham, I think that for the present we will have to be satisfied with voluntary registration, which should be strengthened by whatever mechanism can be introduced.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Walton, has said. If noble Lords look at A Vision for Adult Social Care, a document published by the Government last year, they will see that the principles underpinning health and social care have been set out perhaps more clearly than they have been for some considerable time. I do not think the problem is that the principles are not there or are not known; it is that the training that brings those principles to life for a practitioner is not there.

I am torn on this issue. I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and I was persuaded by what she said. I know of organisations which use staff who are not registered but who are exceptionally well trained and have very high standards. If the Government are reluctant—I am sure that my noble friend will again say that they are—to go down the path of full registration, I would understand that position if my noble friend would give a commitment to the development of training. That would go a long way to meeting the point to which I think all noble Lords are trying to get; namely, that the training of people involved in the direct care of those who, usually, have long-term conditions is of a high-enough quality. That is the most helpful thing that my noble friend might be able to say.

[Baroness Pitkeathley]

My Lords, in response to the two noble Lords from the Cross Benches who have spoken, the thinking of CHRE, which is to become the Professional Standards Authority, on the accreditation of voluntary registers is quite well developed. We would be very happy to participate in any meeting of the kind suggested.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Emerton]

My Lords, I support the amendments, first, because I totally agree with them. The second reason takes me back in history—I think it was 1976 or 1978—to when the Government had a Bill proposing that learning disability clients should be taken out of mental handicap hospitals and placed in the community. I had the privilege and lovely responsibility —this is when old age comes into experience—of managing that project. I worked with the noble Lord, Lord Warner, who was then director of social services. I also worked with Lambeth, Lewisham, Southwark and all the London boroughs, which were absolutely against having patients transferred to the community.

If there is something in the Bill and it is government policy, everybody will work towards it and understand that there must be integration. We have mentioned the word “culture”. I found this issue absolutely fundamental. It runs through the whole issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, was also part of this exercise. She was in Brighton at the time and some clients went to Brighton. It was extremely difficult to get local authorities to understand the needs of some of these clients. Some had special needs and difficult behavioural problems. However, we got there because we had target dates by which we had to do it and also because we had trained staff. We have not yet spoken about the workforce, except in terms of carers and social care. We need to have a workforce that will be able to supply the level and standards of care that will be required.

My noble friend Lady Greengross has just mentioned the fact that dementia care in hospitals is not good. That is probably very true, although it is good in some places. We must look at training needs for social care as well as for transferring patients to secondary care. The culture issues are important and once they are included in the Bill, one can get to work on them.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of the amendment and answer the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. Since 1948, we have had a system whereby there has been an agreed national settlement on a person's entitlement to healthcare. It is delivered to national criteria and demand is managed largely by waiting times. Running in parallel is social care, where there is no national entitlement and demand is managed by eligibility criteria. The two systems are administered in parallel by completely different people, side by side. Successive reports have set out for us all the different ways in which the two systems do not work together. People have analysed the reasons why the systems do not work together.

The most telling thing for me is that we have known for a very long time, because we have evidence to prove it, that if older people are discharged from hospital and are supported through the period of discharge, the likelihood of them being readmitted to hospital is very low. We also know, because of that, that the cost to the NHS decreases. I am afraid to say that those of us who work in the charitable sector also know how impossible it is to get the NHS to run a hospital discharge system. The noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, is absolutely right. I do not want to throw blame about, but it leads to my point about why I think the amendment is important. The biggest single thing that will make an impact on the NHS is cultural change. There are a lot of barriers in the NHS to that change. We have heard the point echoed in our debates over the past few weeks. Some of our most eminent clinicians have made the point very glibly that there is very little evidence about what works in social care. That is true; social care has some way to go in developing an evidence base. However, we have some evidence and it still gets ignored because social care is not up there with healthcare.

Noble Lords have talked throughout our debates about specialist nurses and how important they are. I have come to the conclusion that the greatest asset of a specialist nurse is that they know their way around social care and can explain it to people in the NHS. I do not wish to denigrate specialist nurses in any way; they do a fantastic job. However, part of me thinks that if they are the only ones who understand the system, are they letting the rest of the NHS off the hook? The biggest single thing that will make the Bill work or not work is whether everyone in the NHS sees it as their responsibility to understand and work with social care.

The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is cleverly worded. I congratulate him on that. It is based on Dilnot and the Law Commission, although he has crafted it using general terms so that it is not specific to those two reports. I commend him for that. On balance, the most important part of the amendment is proposed new subsection (2)(b), which reflects the Law Commission report. Until we get nationally agreed standards of eligibility, assessment and charging policies, it will be impossible for anyone who works in the NHS to know what it is they are supposed to be integrating with. That is the key point. I understand that Dilnot is important in terms of funding, but the Law Commission report is the important one.

I listened very carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said. I always do. It is a very good report; I agree with that. However, he said that all these local developments in integrated care depend on funding. He is right, but there is a huge amount of wastage of resources throughout the health service. I pick up on this at local level. It comes down to two things: data are not shared and there is no understanding of common assessment of needs. Those two things cost the NHS and social care a fortune. Proposed new subsection (2)(b) of the amendment is so important because it covers the key area on which we have to work.

Perhaps noble Lords have been slightly pessimistic about the Bill. The existence of health and well-being boards is important. It will be possible, locally if not nationally, to begin to work on these issues. It will be possible for some areas to do highly innovative stuff. Noble Lords have talked about the work done in Torbay. When my colleagues were in charge of the borough of Islington, they had a very interesting approach. Social services took responsibility for everything that was to do with children and the NHS took responsibility for everything that was to do with older people, which included social care. I would like to see more of that and I hope that health and well-being boards will bring it about.

Presumably the noble Lord, Lord Warner, was told to have a go at the Liberal Democrats today. I was surprised that he asked about our attitude to the Dilnot report and the Law Commission report. At our conference in September we passed a resolution to the effect that we welcomed the reports and wished to see the Government implement them quickly. We have not come up with a series of bureaucratic provisions to hold up implementation. I pay tribute to Paul Burstow. He came into government when the previous Labour Government had not resolved the issue in 13 years. He found extra funding for social care and went out of his way to make sure that the Dilnot review was set up. He laid down a challenge to us that I pass on to noble Lords. He challenged us to campaign on social care with all the passion and vigour that we do on the NHS. I challenge noble Lords to do that. Actually, I would like to challenge 38 Degrees and everybody else to do that, because there are an awful lot of people who are willing to be as vociferous as you like on the NHS but are suddenly silent when it comes to social care. Some of us have had enough of that. I commend the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Lord Warner]

I was not doubting the enthusiasm on the Liberal Democrat Benches regarding this area. I just wanted to provoke the noble Baroness into giving the kind of excellent speech that she has given. I was hoping that we would hear from her. I also join her in paying tribute to Paul Burstow, and indeed Norman Lamb, for the very supportive way in which they have approached this issue.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I was heartened by a lot of what my noble friend said about maternity services, but it seems that the variations will be reduced through NICE quality standards. I understand that NICE has a very long queue of services to be considered for quality standards and I wonder whether my noble friend and the Government have any influence over which services have priority to have their standards set early and which will have to wait. As maternity involves a tremendous number of women who are giving birth, it is really important to get it in the front of the queue, as far as possible.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me where in the legislation it is made clear, if a CCG were to have a conflict—that is, a disagreement—with the commissioning support organisation, where and how that conflict would be resolved?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, in the interests of time I suggest that I write to noble Lords on those questions, and I am happy to do so. However, I say to my noble friend Lady Cumberlege that I recognise the particular importance of the maternity quality standard. I will try to find out for her what stage NICE has reached or is likely to reach within a certain timescale, and if I can provide her with any further information I will be happy to do so.

Funding of Care and Support

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, not only for the characteristically thorough way in which she introduced the debate but for securing it in the first place. She is absolutely right that the timing is of the essence. Many noble Lords have buried themselves deep in the Health and Social Care Bill. I was going to observe that perhaps today was light relief for some of us—but it is not. Everything that we will discuss today has an impact on the National Health Service. We have known for so long—and it has been confirmed by every report that the noble Baroness talked about—that if we do not sort out the system of social care, which we know does not work, it will inevitably build up costs for the National Health Service. As ever, it is a great shame that while people are passionately vocal about changes in the NHS, there has been something of a silence on social care, which never gets the same level of reaction despite being so important.

I will not go into great details on the reports. I will focus for my seven minutes on things that have to happen now. It is clear that the public know that they are likely at some point to need social care. However, they do not know the likelihood of that happening to them. We know that for people aged 85 and over, of whom there are a growing number, the figure is three out of four. According to an ABI survey, 51 per cent of the public do not know who will pay for their care; 21 per cent think that their family might pay for it; and 19 per cent think that the Government might pay for it. They have no idea where to go for independent advice. Those are the key issues that we must work around.

We must recognise that this is a generational issue. One’s ability to afford social care depends entirely on whether one has property. That is the determining factor. There is also an age factor. People aged 85 and over at the moment will have to pay for social care from their savings or capital. Those who are 65-plus and already retired will have to try to secure an annuity. As we know, the private market so far has failed to develop appropriate products. People of working age who want to plan for their future social care needs will either have to come to some kind of annuity arrangement or hope that in future insurance products will be made available.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said, it is crucial that politicians come together now to agree which parts of the Dilnot report they will accept, and the criteria and level of funding, so that individuals can know with some degree of certainty what the likely state contribution to their care will be, and private companies can come up with forms of insurance that are sustainable. That will take considerable time and is an urgent matter.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, mentioned in passing the Law Commission. She is absolutely right. The Law Commission report is critical to this. It calls for two things: a new statute and regulations that set out community care criteria and eligibility, and the process of assessment for individuals. The importance of community care assessment is something that people in the world of community care understand, but nobody outside it does. It is fundamental to this issue. If individuals cannot tell at what point their care needs will be recognised, accessed and taken forward, we cannot begin to build insurance products that will help people to plug the funding gap.

I will make a further point that has not come out in either of the documents. It is crucial that there is a system of care assessment that runs alongside but is completely independent from any form of financial assessment. In future, people will have to undergo both processes, but one must not contaminate the other.

I mentioned property. It is inevitable, given the generational distribution of property ownership, that equity release and the ability of individuals to release resources that are tied up in capital will become increasingly important. At the moment we do not have equity release products that are deemed to be safe. Nobody who wishes to go down the route of funding their own care in that way knows where to go for reliable advice. I ask the Minister whether the work done on equity release by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation in 2006 is being revisited, and whether the Government are engaging with the FSA on how they might build an equity release market in future that people will be able to trust.

Members of your Lordships' House conducted a seminar in which Andrew Dilnot introduced his report. He spoke to a pretty tough crowd. One political point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, who is not in his place. He challenged Andrew Dilnot on whether his report was not a subsidy to people who were well off. That is the outstanding political point. Andrew Dilnot made the fair rebuttal that healthcare in the NHS is a system of pooled risk and we do not draw the distinction. That is the only substantive political point that was raised against the Dilnot report. I hope that if the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, agrees that the system that has been devised is equitable across the piece, all parties should be able to agree.

We have been here before. We have been very close to reaching agreement. Some weeks ago Ed Miliband said that he would be willing to take part in cross-party discussions. It is very easy to make such a statement and then find some reason, process or proposal that you cannot agree with. This requires political consensus and courage from all parties. It will take a degree of sustaining. It requires all politicians to convince the media that this is the correct way forward. If we do not agree this now, we will be back in 20 years debating the same issues, and the situation will be worse for the individuals concerned.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley for initiating this debate and pay tribute to Andrew Dilnot and his colleagues, including my noble friend Lord Warner, for the report which they produced in July this year. I am sorry that no Conservative Members on the Benches opposite are present to take part in this debate because the band of “usual suspects” to which reference has been made includes members of the Conservative Party. Their voices have been missed in this debate.

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate for their insights. We felt that it was important that those on these Benches should initiate this debate as we seem to be at a standstill, or making slow progress, on many social care fronts, and in some areas are possibly moving backwards. That is a matter of grave concern. I echo the final words of my noble friend Lord Warner that we cannot afford not to do anything.

We can all agree that the need to secure a sustainable funding settlement for social care has never been more urgent, with local government and NHS finances under significant pressure and demand for services increasing as the population ages. We all agree that the NHS will never work properly without a sustainable approach to social care funding. The Dilnot report therefore offers a credible and costed way forward. We believe that the Government must move quickly to undertake detailed work on the report’s recommendations and honour their pledge to publish a White Paper, followed by legislation in 2012.

The adoption of the capped cost framework recommended by Dilnot offers a fairer and more transparent way of sharing the costs of care between the individual and the state. This will make it easier to tackle the deeper problem of underfunding that has led to the tighter rationing of services and escalating levels of unmet need, which have also been mentioned by several noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Lipsey and Lord Warner, and the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland.

The much mentioned budget deficit is no reason for delay. The questions of affordability go beyond the current economic situation, and the additional public spending needed to fund the proposals, as we have noted, is less than 0.25 per cent of GDP. The social care system is widely regarded as inadequate, unfair and unsustainable. Under the current means-testing arrangements, anyone with assets of more than £23,250 must pay the full cost of their care. This leaves one in 10 people over 65 facing costs of more than £100,000. Eligibility criteria for council-funded services have been tightened whereby in most areas only those with very high needs now qualify for help.

The squeeze on local authority budgets over the next four years will widen the gap between needs and resources, despite the additional £2 billion announced in the spending review and the best intentions of all local authorities to protect social care. As my noble friend Lord Warner mentioned, the King’s Fund estimates that a funding gap of at least £1.2 billion could open up by 2014 unless all councils can achieve unlikely and unprecedented efficiency savings.

In addition, only this week, the report of the EHRC, led by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, shone a light on the too often invisible experiences of older people receiving care at home. It reveals a service stretched to the limit and older people denied the dignity and respect they deserve. It is shameful and unacceptable for elderly people to be left for hours without food and drink and not properly cleaned.

We know that the Dilnot report called for the improved integration of health and social care. Evidence suggests that this can improve outcomes for individuals and deliver cost savings. We know all this, and we have been talking about it not only for the past 40 years but in the past few days during the proceedings on the Health and Social Care Bill. However, despite notable successes, the progress has been limited, with less than 5 per cent of NHS and social care budgets being subject to joint arrangements and wide variations across different parts of the country in the quality and achievement of joint working. Indeed, part of our scrutiny and testing of the Health and Social Care Bill is whether it will make that situation better or worse.

Nor should we forget that Dilnot did not claim to have the whole answer to the challenges that we face. He claimed that his report was part of the process and addresses very importantly, among other things than those I have mentioned, the injustices of portability of care assessments. The Government’s response to the Law Commission report is most important and was mentioned by my noble friend Lady Wilkins and the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch. The Minister should be able to respond that progress is being made on this and other matters.

The proposals for carers are also important in the Dilnot report, as is the establishment of a national source of advice. The commission recommends that better advice should be complemented with a national awareness campaign on the cost of care and a new funding system. I look for that to be part of the Government’s response to this report. Indeed, the assessment and provision of services will be available using the same system as for older people, but the funding cap will work differently for younger adults and the report sets out how this might be achieved.

We must not forget that the need for timely, effective social care not only involves the long-term disabled, those in old age and people with long-term conditions. I thank Macmillan for its briefing and for reminding us that integration across health and social care is also vital in helping to meet the practical, emotional and financial needs of people living with cancer and those reaching the end of their lives. Macmillan welcomes the findings of the Dilnot commission, as it believes that the report also represents the foundation for a fairer funding system for social care.

I have mentioned all the things on which we agree, and I have done so quite deliberately. We all agree that we urgently need a long-term solution for the funding of social care, and that is why Labour offered cross-party talks on this issue from the outset. I urge the Government to get round the table so that we can tackle the care crisis and find a fair and sustainable solution for the future.

I hope that what I have to say now may help the scepticism of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. Indeed, when I explain how we would like to proceed, I hope that she will nudge her own Government into conceding on this and making faster progress than they have done so far.

As the Minister will recall, when the Dilnot report was launched in early July, my right honourable friend the leader of the Labour Party welcomed it and offered cross-party talks on the future of social care, using the report of the Commission on Funding of Care and Support as a stepping stone to secure a better, fairer system of care for older people and the disabled. I understand that there was an exchange of letters in September and October, and most recently a letter to the Secretary of State dated 8 November.

There are some outstanding questions that the Government need to address in their commitment to this process, and I should be grateful if the Minister would indicate to the House whether progress on them has been made. There are four points. First, securing agreement on funding and implementing the Dilnot proposals clearly goes beyond the remit of the Department of Health and the Secretary of State for Health—it should involve all the departments affected. Given the public spending implications of both the Dilnot proposals and the rising costs and needs, the engagement of the Treasury in this process is crucial. Does the Minister agree with that, and is there agreement that that is how we need to proceed?

Secondly, the Government should nominate an independent person to chair the talks. Again, does the Minister agree with that, and when might it happen? Thirdly, we would like to see established an independent secretariat with the specialist expertise to provide equal access to the negotiations as required. Fourthly, there should be a party leaders’ meeting to agree a clear timetable to demonstrate that we are all equally and seriously committed to talks at the highest level.

Those commitments do not stand in the way of the process: rather, they will facilitate it. I put them on the record now, as they have been put to the Secretary of State for Health, and say that I think it would help the House and the process if the Minister would take the opportunity to respond on this matter. Finally, I thank all noble Lords for taking part in the debate.

[Baroness Barker]

I thank the noble Baroness very much—I did not know about the correspondence. However, can she explain why an independent chair is necessary for the process? I understand the other three points but I do not understand that one. What is the reason?

[Baroness Thornton]

We think that having an independent chair is a sensible way to move forward. We have not suggested that we should appoint the chair; we have asked the Government to suggest the name of the person who might chair those talks. I do not think that any of those things is a barrier to progress in this matter.

Finally, we on these Benches think that this is one of the most important issues facing our society today. It is one that we cannot neglect or leave in the long grass, and it is one that we are determined to resolve.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 14th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top]

My Lords, I rise briefly to lend support to the amendment. I work with charities for the homeless and for children. If the Government’s ambition is to enable the NHS to work with the patient on the full pathway—rather than work being done in little bits by different organisations—then making the playing field level for the voluntary sector is absolutely critical to developing those pathways. In my experience, the voluntary organisation is frequently the glue in making sure that the pathway for the patient works for the patient.

I remind the Minister that when this works well there are often savings for the National Health Service. I have experienced that in homelessness, where we have been able to work with the PCT to get a community matron. That has reduced the number of expensive admissions to hospital and A&E for the most disadvantaged—the homeless. I have also seen that work well with, for example, children with disabilities and children who are very ill. They have been enabled to remain at home with the proper support instead of being frequently admitted to hospital.

It is to the advantage of the NHS that we get this right. What will the Government do to bring forward in the Bill comfort and encouragement for the voluntary sector? After the pause, that sector has been left with a rather large amount of confusion.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, for over 25 years I have worked either in or as a consultant to voluntary organisations. Consequently, my eyes lit up at the sight of an amendment that said VAT and charities. In my time, I have sat with wet towels around my head trying to figure out this, one of the most complicated subjects. I have attended seminar after seminar with the Inland Revenue at which people with bigger brains than me have come away with their heads reeling from trying to understand the issue of VAT and charities. It is infinitely more complicated for charities than it is for the private or public sectors. That is not new. As various people have said, this issue has been running for some considerable time.

I want to correct two impressions that might have been given inadvertently in the debate. First, there is the impression that there is a view in the charitable sector on this issue. There is not, because the issue effects different organisations disproportionately. While there may well be a consensus among hospices that it would be advantageous for them to make such a change, it may not be and indeed is not for other, smaller charities. That is the first thing.

Secondly, we have this new generation of social enterprises. These organisations are not charities but businesses. They are intended to be big players in the provision of services. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, has been clever here in not asking for the Government to take a particular step. He simply asks for a report on a subject that will fascinate some of us quite deeply. Were the Government to take on board the point that the noble Lord makes, apart from looking at a whole range of different charities—not just hospices—would they also consider the effect on social enterprises? I do not think that it is possible to come up with a set of legal proposals that relate simply to health and social care. By definition, they would have to go across the whole of public services. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would accept that an exercise of this kind should do that.

Finally, be careful in the questions that you ask of HMRC. As someone who advised charities, I was always brought up never to ask a question of HMRC unless I was pretty confident that I would get back the answer that I wanted. This may be an answer that the hospices want but I would wish to be pretty clear that it worked for charities across the board. I simply finish by saying that if this subject were straightforward, it would have been sorted out a long time ago—but it is not and that is why it has not been.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for what she just said about the complexity of the question. However, I would like to go back to what the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said about what charities do well. Particularly important is their face-to-face concern with the whole needs of whole persons rather than the abstract application of principles. I would add two things that some charities offer that intersect with other bits of our social agenda at the moment. One is the passion of those volunteers who work particularly for local, small charities. A lot of energy is sapped by precisely the issue that we are discussing this afternoon. If we are concerned for what might be called in the most general way the big society, how you engage people in maximum participation at a local level in concerns and charities—particularly small ones, which are very close to the action—is extraordinarily important, it seems to me. Passion and localism are two aspects of this that must not be forgotten.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 14th November 2011 Lords Chamber

I lived through the process of dealing with financial meltdown in the NHS in 2005-06. One of the main causes of that meltdown was that the NHS could explain to hardly anybody collectively the relationship between the level of activity and the cost of that activity. It had two streams of data—one about money and one about activity—and they were not related to each other. If we repeat that approach in clinical commissioning groups, we will end up in the same place as we ended up in 2005-06.

[Baroness Barker]

I shall speak to Amendment 92ZZA, which stands in my name and those of my noble friends. At this time of night, brevity is of the essence. This amendment addresses a crucial point.

The whole structure that the Bill sets up for the NHS depends on a number of things to work efficiently. It depends on the clarity of responsibilities and on different bodies having a clear understanding not only of their own role but of their role in relation to each other. One of the most important parts of the process underlying the structure is integrity. Although there has been much exaggeration about potential conflicts of interest in some of the things that I have seen, there is one—the one that I have highlighted in this amendment.

One commendable thing about this Bill is that in relation to acute care and hospitals we are stopping the process by which organisations—in this case acute trusts—are rewarded for the volume of the procedures they do rather than the quality of their outputs. It is important in commissioning that we stick to that same principle. There must be no possibility whatever that anybody who is involved in the commissioning of services stands to gain by the provision of those services, or their volume. That is why I have drafted this amendment. It may be imperfect in some way or another but its intention is to say that those commissioning decisions must be completely separate from the derivation of any benefit—or pecuniary benefit—as a result of that.

I have absolutely no problem whatever with people who either work for or are shareholders of commissioning support organisations advising CCGs on what to do. If they are, as we have been led to believe, experts in commissioning and clinical commissioning groups want to bring in their expert advice, that is absolutely fine. I do not have a problem with that at all, as it could be a much more efficient and effective way in which to do it. However, it would be unacceptable if those same people had any role whatever in the decision-making processes of the CCGs, either by being a member of a CCG board or by being a member of one of the CCG sub-committees. My amendment attempts to remove that potential conflict of interest. It is probably one that the Government had intended to remove, but they have not done so in the Bill as it stands, and so there is a loophole which needs to be closed in order that there is complete integrity about the process.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, this group of amendments and this debate are incredibly important. The risk of conflict of interest relating to general practitioners is particularly high because they are independent contractors—they are not NHS employees and therefore are not answerable in the same structure as an NHS employee would be within an organisation. Independent contractor groups may be small or they may be as large as practices.

I have been a GP myself and have had to go through the business of partnership agreements. I know only too well from colleagues of mine how disastrous the break-ups in partnership agreements can be and the degree of animosity that can occur. When we talk about GPs being on commissioning groups, there is a real problem in terms of how much they are going to get paid for undertaking commissioning decisions. If they are commissioned from an organisation with which they have a link—because they are a GP with a special interest and they work in another organisation—what are they being paid for? The content of their general and medical services contract is not closely defined. If they have a special interest, which their practice then refers to one of the partners in the group who is providing a service as part of another provider group, there is a risk that people in that practice will be getting double-paid under the organisation of that arrangement.

To try to explore this, I telephoned Assura, a group which is providing dermatological services in an area. I tried to explore the situation with regard to their internal governance arrangements and commissioning arrangements if they have a GP working there and how those arrangements are monitored. I was reassured by what I was told by the person on the phone, who was most helpful. However, it did not take away my anxiety. This provider was being careful and making sure that clinical governance structures were in place, but I have not been able to understand where the controls are on a clinical commissioning group. Will they be only on people who are GP principals on it, or will they apply to all the doctors who are working in general practice? Where will the GPs sit if there are a small number of principals, a large number of salaried GPs in an area who are doing all the clinical work and who know what needs to be done, and a senior partner who is taking the profits out of the business which is the business of the general practice?

Where coterminosity links to this is that, if you have coterminosity between the commissioning group and other services—local authority services, education services and so on—you at least have another organisation, or two others, which will be seeing what is happening. If you take a complex family—perhaps a single parent with one child with developmental delays, another with complex conditions such as epilepsy, diabetes or whatever, and another child who might be being neglected—then, by having triangulation between local authority services, education services and those services being commissioned, the gaps in the commissioning process may emerge. However, if you do not have coterminosity, I can see each group saying, “It falls outside our area”, and the children or the patients will fall through the gaps. With regard to the commissioning group, poor decisions in commissioning or decisions which involve a conflict of interest may not be revealed for a very long time.

Therefore, I urge the Government to look closely at these amendments, particularly the one tabled by my noble friend Lord Kakkar on the Nolan principles, because, unless we tighten up on the processes that will monitor and provide governance over the way that members of the clinical commissioning group behave, we run a risk. I wish that I could share the optimism of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that the conflict of interest will lie only among those supporting commissioning decisions, but I do not.

Hospitals and Care Homes: Hydration

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I asked my officials that very same question. I thank my noble friend. My advice is that all preregistration training for nurses contains instruction and information about hydration and how to make sure that people have enough to eat and drink while in a care setting.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, the Minister said that the CQC has enforcement powers. How long after a CQC inspection reveals abuse of vulnerable people is it required to take enforcement action?

[Earl Howe]

I think that my noble friend asked about the period of time after an inspection. The CQC has flexibility depending on what it finds. As my noble friend will know, there is a whole succession of increasingly strong measures that it can take, depending on the concern. It can mandate immediate action to be taken, and in those circumstances it will return, typically, for a further inspection within a fairly short space of time to ascertain whether the action has been carried out.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker]

I follow on from the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, by raising a question for the noble Lord, Lord Patel. Does he accept that if his amendments were accepted, for some of us that would run the risk of medicalisation of long-term conditions? I agree with him when he says that there needs to be a change in culture—culture is all important. What this Bill seeks to do is to break down a lot of the barriers between health and social care so that the health and well-being, in the broadest sense, of individuals, are improved. That is an enormously important step forward, not least because much of the preventive work needs to be done with the population, in terms of lifestyle and so on, to decrease admissions to the NHS. That is what has traditionally been carried out not by healthcare but by other agencies.

I throw the noble Lord a somewhat philosophical question. If his amendment were to be accepted, would that be an acceptance by the medical profession that health and social care need to work in a far more integrated fashion than they have ever done before to achieve what he would term health and clinical outcomes, to which I would add well-being outcomes?