Agriculture (Miscellaneous Amendments) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Baroness Byford

Wednesday 16th October 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, may I add a couple of comments? I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jones, for his comments. My understanding of these statutory instruments is that they make no basic change to what there already is. Again, this relates EU law to UK law, so a lot of the language—which, to be honest, is tedious to work through—is very simple in what it is trying to do. I follow the noble Lord’s passion; some of our upland farmers, and other farmers elsewhere, will be challenged, particularly when we look at tariffs and trade. However, that is not to do with the SI that we are dealing with today.

I would love to think that the noble Lord was going to speak in tomorrow’s debate, which gives us all the wonderful opportunity to talk about things that we think are hugely important. I agree with much of what he said.

I would like to support these statutory instruments, so in some ways it is a shame that we are doing some of them twice. We dealt with some of this earlier, but are having to deal with it again, as changes take place. The instruments will probably give greater flexibility, which will give much help to the Government and the Ministers. I have nothing else to add on that, but I have one query. In introducing the instruments, the Minister referred to the import of eggs, but the one topic that always gets dodged is that of dried eggs and powdered milk—probably because it is a difficult one to deal with. The buying and selling of fresh eggs is very clear and easy, but a lot of the eggs and egg content that go into manufacturing come through on the dried side. I do not know whether that applies to this SI but, in the meantime, I support the instruments.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for so clearly setting out the issues in these five statutory instruments, which make minor adjustments and corrections to previous SIs that we debated earlier in the year, as most noble Lords have said. I am delighted that we are debating all five together and not separately. I thank the Minister for his time and that of his officials in providing a briefing for these SIs.

All the SIs cover small details and technical amendments, but they are quite complicated. The reserved matter in the first SI covers areas concerning trade import of hops and agricultural processed products, and a minor amendment on the import of eggs and the whole list that the Minister gave us. The SI covers anti-competitive practices and helps to protect sugar beet growers, and milk and milk products. Although there are no policy changes and it will remove redundant legislation post Brexit, it is important to get these matters right so that we are not debating the same things fairly regularly.

I was intrigued by the subject of the import of rice. I understand that the issue is how much rice might be contained in a processed product, such a tin of rice pudding or baby food. Nutritional content on these products is extremely important, especially if they are to be consumed by children.

The second SI concerns CMO operability amendments and, as has been said, transfers functions from the EU to the devolved Administrations. The majority of issues have been carried over from March. The SI again includes eggs, but also poultry meat. Given this, can the Minister can say where poultry breeders fit specifically in the list of six consulted stakeholders that the noble Lord, Lord Jones, listed for us, since it is not immediately apparent from the list?

It is interesting that not all matters in the SI apply to Wales, which is doing its own thing, yet marketing standards are the same across all the devolved Administrations. Are the regulations being applied in Wales better than those that will pertain in the rest of the UK, or worse?

The third SI is about import and export licences and is a reserved matter. I note that changes are very minor to ensure operability after EU exit, including changes from the euro to the pound, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and are being set and calculated on 2018 conversion rates. Will this have a negative effect should the exchange rate alter dramatically? The Rural Payments Agency will manage the process, which remains the same. Export repayments will be made only in circumstances of crisis. Can the Minister indicate examples of crisis that might qualify for payment?

The fourth and fifth SIs are similar, except that the first is reserved and the second devolved. They are all about transitional arrangements. Again, they amend existing EU SIs made in March this year but which, since we failed to leave, have to be amended because the transition dates were for a fixed two-year period relating to March. It is a very sensible alteration to move the date to relate to when an actual deal finally transpires, should one ever be negotiated. Hence the words concerning coming into force two years from Brexit date are an excellent catch-all solution.

In the fourth SI there are technical changes on products not produced here—at the moment, that is: olives, olive oil, tobacco and rice. In the last SI there are some alterations related to labelling, which I believe is for 21 months, but the import-export licences are for two years. Again, all this was debated last March and is being amended and tidied up today.

I have no substantive comments to make on any of these SIs, which I support, and I am sure there will be others shortly.

Kew Gardens (Leases) (No. 3) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Baroness Byford

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 5th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, as the Minister said, Kew does not have access to unlimited resources, and I welcome the recognition of this by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I fully support his amendment, and am pleased that the Government have decided to accept it. Like my noble friend Lady Kramer, I am pleased we have had the opportunity for a contribution from the noble Lord, Lord True, given that this was his Bill in the first place. The amendment before us strengthens the Bill and I am pleased to support it.

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, as somebody who is not based near Kew but who has really appreciated my visits there, I am delighted that this very small Bill will secure Kew’s future. I understand the questions raised about Clause 1, but, having looked at the amendments in this second group, I think they will reinforce it and give us a good balance. We will be able to look at future developments that may happen, because otherwise it will not be sustainable in the long term. The most important thing is the valuable work that goes on at Kew. With climate change and everything else that is coming along, Kew is a precious commodity that we need to keep in hand, without restricting it from developing in ways that we do not yet know will be possible in the future. I am delighted with this, and very supportive of it, as I have been throughout the passage of the Bill.

Zoonotic Disease Eradication and Control (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Baroness Byford

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument, which I welcome. I have a couple of questions for her, but I declare an interest of long ago—50 years—as an ex-poultry farmer, producing eggs for a very well-known breeding company which hatched the eggs and then sold the chickens to farmers commercially; I was a parent stock breeder. It is hugely important that imports are considered on the same basis as they are now; they need health certificates, so that is a very welcome confirmation.

The egg industry is hugely important and, from time to time, has had some great challenges over those years. We remember the egg scare during a certain lady’s time—Edwina Currie—which did the industry no good at all. The industry needs to know that it is batting on an even level, so I welcome this statutory instrument.

If I may, I shall raise again the question again that I previously mentioned briefly, but I did not come back to the Minister. We were having a conversation on salmonella before we started this debate, but the use of antibiotics falls within this ground. Some countries use antibiotics in a way we certainly would not here. There is not a direct link at the moment, but it may be—I would have to look to colleagues for confirmation—that it can be transposed from livestock to humans because of its excessive use. I am not sure of my ground on this, but I would not like the occasion to go by without raising this with the Minister again. I realise that this statutory instrument looks primarily to getting proper monitoring and control over salmonella, which is a hugely difficult disease within the industry if it is allowed to take hold. As a former-poultry farmer, I am well aware of the challenges that the industry faces. The one thing that it needs is to be able to trade fairly, and therefore the regulations are very welcome.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her comprehensive introduction to this fairly non-controversial statutory instrument. As has been said, it provides the protection of EU standards in UK law, particularly in relation to salmonella. I accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, said: this is really important for our poultry farmers and egg producers.

The trade in live animals and hatching eggs between member states and third countries includes vaccination and antimicrobials to reduce disease transmission between the animals themselves and animal-to-human transmission of disease. It is important to ensure that the Government introduce legislation to keep health standards at the highest possible level in order to protect both animals and humans. Paragraph 2.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum indicates that animal health is a devolved matter, and therefore the power to amend targets on zoonotic diseases is also devolved.

There will be a UK-wide national control programme but each Administration will have their own targets for the reduction of salmonella. There is, therefore, the possibility of targets being reduced or increased. Northern Ireland, understandably, will have the same targets as Ireland and therefore will have the same targets as the rest of the EU. Can the Minister confirm that the regulations will be the same across the UK but that the targets could be different, especially in Northern Ireland? Can she also say what safeguards will be in place should a devolved Administration seek to reduce their target on salmonella?

The British Veterinary Association has expressed the view that maintaining surveillance networks with the EU should be a priority. Can the Minister detail the provision that is in place with the EU to ensure that intelligence will be shared to protect our biosecurity? Those comments apart, I am happy to support this SI.

Rural Development (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Baroness Byford

Wednesday 13th March 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, I follow my noble friend on her various questions; she touched on some of the things I wished to raise. The question of the timescale is hugely important because, in the past, some agricultural schemes have run for 10 years and some for seven years. The timescale that she has just referred to—between 2022 and 2027—is a span of only five years, so that ongoing question needs to be resolved.

We have talked about the question of active farmers and of who receives payments in the future in many of our discussions on agriculture. I particularly wonder whether that could, in the future, include youth projects and retirement projects, or whether that is outside the particular instruments that we are looking at. It may well be so and if I am told that it is, I will perhaps be happier than I am with it not being mentioned here.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh spoke about tenant farmers and graziers, or commoners, but if I am right, I would also raise the whole question of contractors with the Minister because so many farms—as indeed ours are—are now contracted out. It was easier in the past to always refer to tenant farmers, but I think one will find that there are many more contracted arrangements now between farmers.

I, too, would like to raise paragraphs 3 and 4 of the report from the Scrutiny Committee’s Sub-Committee B. These refer to the deficiencies but the Minister has covered many of them in his presentation. If there is anything he wants to add to it, it would be good for the Committee to hear that. Also, what is happening with the financial analysis that has taken place?

Returning to the European structural and investment funds regulations, page 3 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to the,

“special interest to the Joint Committee”.

I understand that the House of Lords sifting committee did not think it was necessary to have a debate. However, the House of Commons recommended that we should, which is why we are debating it here. It would be interesting to know what it was unhappy about and what steps the Government have taken to rectify that, but overall, these instruments are obviously welcome. They are very technical, and allow systems to keep going as they are.

Moving to rural payments, we have talked about money being made available for rural development. Can the Minister say if that will also be defined as, for example, making it possible for groups of people to come together to enhance businesses and make that food chain shorter? That is not clear here. One of the big challenges that we face as a nation is how to contain the costs of producing food. The Minister, who is so knowledgeable on these things, knows very well the great advantage one has in fruit growing, or whatever it is, if there is a chain that links everything together. Money has been put aside in the past for that sort of work and I wonder whether that would fall within these regulations. It is not defined but it would be of great help.

Once we have accepted these instruments and moved on, perhaps there will be greater freedom for the UK to develop more ideas of its own as to how money could be used better to ensure that we produce food to our very high standards while reducing the chain. That way, the actual cost to the consumer could be contained in a better way than it perhaps has been in the past—it has been a bit fractioned in some areas. Pigs and poultry are not falling into that but there are some other areas, particularly horticulture, where the coming together of business would bring great benefits. However, having read through this, I am not clear whether that falls within the category of the thinking behind these regulations.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to the first two of these four statutory instruments that are being taken together. I thank the Minister and his officials for their very helpful briefing session on what is, as the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, has already indicated, a very complex subject.

The European agricultural fund for rural development provides rural development programmes which run under the multiannual financial framework. This SI allows funded programmes to run allegedly unhindered after exit date, until their natural end in 2020.

Annexe 2 of the Explanatory Memorandum lists the six legacy regulations affected by the SI, two more in which deficiencies will be remedied and four where the devolved Administrations have had programme amendments approved. This will ensure that structure fund programmes continue to run smoothly. As I understand it, these programmes will continue to report in the same way as previously but will report to the rural development programmes of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as the relevant devolved Administrations, instead of direct to the EU.

The aim of these SIs is to ensure operability of schemes and the continuity of investment in rural areas, which is the key element for me—it is really important. I wish to ask about the specifics of reporting mechanisms. The EU was very stringent on the information that was required by those who had received structure funds. Being involved with an organisation that had some of their money, I am aware of just how stringent it was. Can the Minister assure us that the UK will get good value for public money? This is especially necessary now that the Exchequer will pick up the funding instead of the EU.

As someone who comes from a rural community, I have a keen interest in the effect of these SIs. Last Friday I took part in a rural conference whose chief aim was to press the Government to produce a rural strategy. The Government have produced an Industrial Strategy which addresses the needs of urban communities and their economy. Now it is time to produce a strategy to address some of the huge disadvantages that rural communities face. These include lack of infrastructure, lack of transport, significantly less pupil funding, lack of affordable housing and poor access to services. I am concerned that the lifeline of rural development funding will be cut off by 2021, to be replaced by a nebulous undertaking that this will in future be covered by the Agriculture Bill.

The Agriculture Bill as published makes some significant changes to the way funding for farming and the environment would take place—as has already been said, public money for public good—but the Bill has become stuck in the Commons after Committee. I am concerned that a large gap in funding for rural areas is opening up before us. As the noble Lord has indicated, Sub-Committee B of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee estimates that the value of EU funds that will need to be replaced is between £400 million and £450 million a year of the European agricultural fund for rural development programmes for the remainder of the period to 2020. The loss of this investment will be keenly felt by many in deep rural areas.

Paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum states:

“After EU Exit, no new rural development programmes will need to be approved and from 2021 new agricultural and environmental schemes will be delivered under the Agricultural Bill”.


The Agriculture Bill will therefore need to be in place by 2021. It should have been in place by the 29th of this month, so that rural communities could plan ahead and have confidence that they were not going to suffer from a severe lack of resources. I know that the Minister understands these issues, but I am not sure the rest of the Government do.

Paragraph 12.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum, under “Impact”, states:

“Beneficiaries will continue to receive rural development funding as before EU exit”.


I am not confident that this will happen and am very concerned about the fate of rural communities.

Water Abstraction Regulations

Debate between Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Baroness Byford

Monday 15th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for putting down this Motion to Regret. I am able to support all of her arguments in this vital matter. The use and retention of water is key to the way in which the country is able to function, both in terms of domestic properties, farming and business.

As the noble Baroness said, the 10th report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee back in November made it very clear that the Government have taken an exceedingly long time to reach the point where they feel they can move forward with secondary legislation—some 14 years after the parent Act. Currently around 5,000 significant water abstractions are exempt from licensing, while some 20,000 abstractions have licences. There does not appear to be any substantial reason why licences should not apply to all abstractors. This is clearly inequitable.

Keeping our rivers flowing must be a priority as overabstraction is damaging diverse wildlife populations. It would seem, from the Prime Minister’s speech last Thursday, that the Government have now woken up to this fact. Analysis shows that the economic and social costs of drought far exceed the costs of addressing the problem and that the rate of return on investment of improving river health is high.

Nearly a quarter of rivers in England are at risk from unsustainable water abstraction, with 14% classified as overabstracted, meaning that water removal is causing rivers to drop below levels required to sustain wildlife. Some 9% are overlicensed, meaning that the river would be overabstracted if licence-holders took all the water they were entitled to. This situation is critical and should not have had to wait 14 years to be addressed.

As we heard, the Government conducted a consultation in 2009 and then again in 2016. I wonder if having consulted in 2009, the incoming Government did not like the responses and shelved the document. I have looked at the responses to the 2016 consultation. Farmers and the mining and quarrying industries were the highest responders, but some responders did not reply to all questions, as they did not all apply to them. Somerset has farming, mining and quarrying industries that are highly dependent on water abstraction. I found the responses of the water level management contributors most interesting, as I live close to the Somerset Levels. The internal drainage boards are only a small section of responders, but they are extremely important.

I was also interested in the response to Question 3 on excluding compensation provisions for future abstractors, with all six environmental groups agreeing with the proposal and all seven in the quarrying and mining sector disagreeing. I understand the Government’s dilemma in trying to please everyone. But water, as we know, needs to be both harvested and protected for the environment. The Government must transpose the water framework directive in full, establishing mechanisms and sanctions to enforce its implementation, even if we leave the EU. The 2027 deadline to increase the proportion of water bodies in good ecological status should be upheld.

The Government’s Brexit White Paper guaranteed that this important piece of legislation and its 2027 deadline would be transposed into UK law. Will the Minister now confirm that this will happen? In its Water for Life White Paper, Defra set out its intention to reform the abstraction regime to ensure sufficient water for wildlife and economic growth. The resulting legislation to make this a reality was due this spring. But in April 2017, the Minister confirmed that new legislation was on hold due to insufficient parliamentary time to take it forward.

In 2016-2017, Britain experienced the driest winter and early spring for more than 20 years according to the Met Office. But Parliament appears not to have been able to allow time for the Government to implement the vital legislation covered in the Water for Life White Paper.

As well as wildlife and biodiversity, water abstraction featured in last week’s 25-year environment plan. The Government aim to amend licences in cases of unsustainable abstraction; encourage water trading and storage; introduce more low-flow controls to protect the environment; and replace seasonal constraints to allow extra abstraction at high flows. They will be extremely busy and it will be good if all that comes to pass.

In many parts of the country, severe drought is a real issue, but in others, the problem is flooding. Managing water flow, storage and movement is key to all those areas affected. Not taking action on the directive for 14 years seems to these Benches to be dilatory in the extreme. I look forward to the Minister’s response on this important matter.

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, I should perhaps declare an interest as a farmer in Suffolk. I do not think that we use any irrigation on our crops because the land is pretty heavy and wet—but I will correct that in the future if I am wrong.

Tonight is a slightly odd circumstance for me and for the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who is in his place opposite. He and I took the Water Bill through the House back in 2003. I remind noble Lords who are contributing today that one of the things that we did with that Bill was to exclude small businesses from having to have a licence control certificate if they took less than 20 cubic metres a day. I think that that is still the position today.

I, too, pay tribute to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. When I was in the same position as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, as shadow Minister with the agriculture brief for 10 years, I relied on the committee a lot and I was very grateful to it for bringing certain things to my attention. The delay that it referred to at the end is certainly accepted as far as I am concerned—and I am sure will be by my noble friend the Minister when he comes to respond.

I will refer to one or two things within the section that we are dealing with. In fact, the Act came into being in 2003. If one were casting aspersions at the present Government taking a long while, I cannot remember why on earth in 2003 we did not move it on quicker and have the consultation earlier. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will be able to remind me. There was quite a long time between the Act coming into being and going out to consultation in the first place. Again, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, or the noble Lord will have more information than I do.

Water Bill

Debate between Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Baroness Byford

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has beaten me to the point that I wish to raise. Over the years, during consideration of whichever water Bill, we have had this debate on how you cope with those who are well able to pay but who choose not to do so. My noble friend is quite right: for various reasons, water is never cut off while, unfortunately, electricity can be. It is an unusual situation in that the water industry is the only one in which that position still exists.

I have some questions for the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on his amendments. First, how would he balance that situation with what he is proposing? Secondly, does he have his own definition of what minimum standards might be, because he has clearly said that it would be for the Government of the day or officials to come up with them? It would be a good idea if the Official Opposition had some direct input themselves into that. Thirdly, the noble Lord said, “We can refer the matter to secondary legislation”. I have sat here on many occasions when we have all said, “Secondary legislation is all right but we do not have any control of it”. We have control of the Bill at this stage and it is essential to deal with this matter in the Bill rather than leave it to secondary legislation, if that were possible.

This is an important issue. When we were considering the Water Bill many years ago, it was difficult to decide who would qualify for being a special case and the circumstances that would be taken into account. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will put a little more meat on the bone, other than what he has done so far in these two amendments.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I fully support affordability schemes but regret that I do not believe that they should be a statutory requirement.

The new social tariff guidance from Defra is to be welcomed, as this means that from this year more companies can introduce social tariffs. It is, however, disappointing—as has been pointed out—that so few companies have so far introduced social tariffs or seem to be preparing to do so. It is right that water companies are best placed to come up with the most suitable scheme for their customers, given their own regional circumstances. Any government regulations could end up being overly prescriptive, instead of allowing sufficient flexibility.

I am lucky enough to come from the West Country where Wessex Water is a major supplier and a forward-thinking company. Over the past 10 years, it has developed its own affordability scheme called Tap. Wessex Water recognises that every household is unique and has adapted Tap to ensure that its services are right for each individual’s situation. Through Tap, Wessex Water offers customers an extensive range of schemes and low-rate tariffs to enable them to afford their ongoing water charges and repay any debts they have accumulated. This runs in conjunction with practical help to reduce water and energy use. Wessex Water delivers this help through successful partnerships with the debt advice sector and other organisations supporting vulnerable customers. Customers are signposted so that they can receive holistic debt advice and income maximisation, as well as make proposals for a sustainable offer of payment, however small.

Wessex Water currently has around 14,000 customers benefiting from one or more of its schemes, with around 8,000 on its very low-rate tariff, Assist. The company is doing a lot of work out in communities to raise awareness and promote Tap, particularly the Assist tariff. It is a scheme for those unable to afford ongoing water bills. Working with debt advice agencies, the customer’s personal finances are assessed and a lower bill than normal is agreed, based on their ability to pay. The range of services covered by Tap, as well as Assist, includes Water Direct, which is for people on benefits, who are able to have payments for water taken from their benefits before they receive them.

A second scheme is WaterSure Plus for those who are on one of the main social benefits and who have either a medical need for extra water or three or more children under the age of 19 living at home. In this case, the annual bill is limited to the average annual bill for metered customers in that region, so they pay less than the bill would have been for the amount of water used. Lastly, the scheme includes Restart and Restart Plus for those who are already in debt with their water bill payments. This allows a payment plan to be agreed and, if the plan is kept to for the first year, the debt is reduced by an equivalent amount in year two. If in year two the payment plan is adhered to, the remaining debt is cleared and the customer has a fresh start.

There will be similar schemes—but not many, I agree—run by other water companies in the country, each developed with knowledge of their customers and their customers’ needs. To ignore all this hard work and impose a statutory affordability scheme is to stifle innovation and enterprise.

Therefore, although I accept that affordability schemes are essential, I believe it is far better for each water company to develop its own scheme rather than have the possible straitjacket of a national scheme imposed on it. However, a government review of the situation in 2015 would identify just how many water companies had failed to implement a scheme. Government encouragement to water companies to enter discussions with the Consumer Council for Water to come up with affordability schemes is essential. They would not have to do the hard work; the evidence is out there for them to utilise and access. Just as essential is clear communication of just how much paying customers are subsidising those who refuse to pay. The subsidy for low-income families struggling and willing to pay is very small compared with that for wilful bad debt. Wessex Water is a shining example of best practice which others would do well to emulate. I regret that I will not be supporting Amendment 55.