Stonehenge

Baroness Andrews Excerpts

Thursday 23rd July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, that this is a complicated and difficult situation. Certainly, when Stonehenge became a world heritage site, one of the commitments was that we would do something about the road. However, Highways England has done an enormous amount of work around the archaeological elements of the area and continues to employ archaeologists to make sure that we could not only build the tunnel, if it is appropriate, but also preserve the site.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, Stonehenge is our global heritage flagship. In recent years, it has been brilliantly transformed by English Heritage, which has integrated the wider archaeological landscape with the stones and their significance. English Heritage is supportive of a tunnel, but is the Minister aware that all our 32 world heritage sites need urgent help to recover from the impact of Covid-19? If our heritage assets are to help in the rebuilding of Britain, their custodians need sustainable funding to do so. When will they know what share of the DCMS cultural package they will get?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

That question is slightly beyond my remit today, I think, but I will encourage DCMS to be in touch with the noble Baroness with further details.

Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Baroness Andrews Excerpts

Thursday 10th July 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, there is a lot to be said for the amendment. Indeed, it follows from what I said earlier this afternoon about the need for more local authority development corporations. I will not repeat that, but it was in the context of local housing estates, which the amendment is not specifically addressing.

My point in a sense supports the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. This country has learnt a great deal about planning of new towns. I lived for some years not far from Harlow and, even 20 or 25 years after it was founded, there was still talk of what had become known as “new town blues”. I am looking at the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, who knows much more about this than I do. However, the new town blues were caused not just by the separation of families, when they went from crowded urban areas to rural areas outside the cities, but because those rural areas were designed with enormous spaces between different little bits of housing. Harlow was a very good example of that. There really could be almost no interaction between little local communities, which felt themselves very much cut off. No one had cars in those days; they relied on foot and bicycle, and whatever public transport might be provided. We have learnt an enormous amount since then. The design of more recent developments is, if I may put it this way, very much more user-friendly. I hope that we shall see that very much at Ebbsfleet. That helps local committees to gel and to develop a local identity. They left that behind when they moved from the cities and, often, city communities were divided as some went to some new towns and some to others.

I saw this a bit in Liverpool, where a lot of the Liverpool council development was in large, out-of-town housing estates that were often quite hideous, with a lot of huge, tall concrete blocks. I hope that I was instrumental in securing something for a group that was eventually called the Eldonians, a tight-knit community of people who were absolutely determined that that was not going to happen to them. Yes, there needed to be redevelopment, but we were able to secure that in a single site, fairly close to where they were already living. I was helped by the fact that the Tate and Lyle sugar factory had closed and that we therefore had a readily available site. To the fury of the Militant Tendency, as it then was, within the leadership of the Liverpool City Council, I was able to insist that that site went to the Eldonians. They have been very kind in their recognition of that ever since, and that community is still going strong.

This is what one has to do: to try to preserve communities, so that they can retain and build their identities to become what one would like to see—a really flourishing social unit. This country has learnt a lot about that. Regarding the development corporations in new towns to which this amendment speaks, I was urging earlier the inclusion of development corporations with the power to initiate substantial housing estates, with the necessary accompanying infrastructure. We are now much better at understanding this, and the planners and other people who have been involved with this deserve great credit. I hope that the Bill will lead to more of the same.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. He has said much more eloquently than I could what an extraordinarily important new clause this could be, were the Government to accept it. It really does reflect a very different approach to the creating of communities from the ones that inspired the new towns of the past. Those were, essentially, pragmatic attempts to rehouse populations which were in distress or in stress. We have a much more humane and intelligent appreciation of what it is to create communities these days. The noble Lord spoke eloquently about Liverpool but, in the case of new towns, one is of course creating a community. That means creating a sense of identity and belonging from the first steps up. In my opinion, it should begin with the nature of the community and the sort of infrastructure that sustains the community once it is in place.

That is why there is emphasis in this clause on key words such as, for example, “sustainable development”. That is one big change from the world that we were in 30 or 40 years ago when we were talking about growth and new towns. The notion of sustainability should underpin everything that we construct, whether in the demography that needs to be housed, the way in which we build or what sustains the community in terms of its well-being, such as the emphasis here on cultural and artistic provision, which is vital for creating a sense of belonging and opportunities for people to get to know each other and share a culture and indeed many different cultures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 79D, I will speak to the other amendments and on whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. In so far as there are issues to address about the discharge of planning permissions, it is suggested that these can be dealt with in another way than that provided for in the Bill. As it stands, the clause is yet another example of central government disempowering local planning authorities.

The ability to impose conditions is an important part of the planning process. They are an alternative to outright refusal of planning permission and therefore an aid to development. By potentially mitigating the adverse effects of the development, they can enable it to proceed. If conditions are imposed, it is important that they are properly discharged, otherwise the system is undermined. Of course, conditions should not be spurious; they should be carefully justified and relate to clear planning issues and policy. They are usually an interlocking set of measures designed to ensure that the development does not harm the public interest.

The NPPF states that:

“Planning conditions should only be imposed where they are necessary, relevant to planning and to the development to be permitted, enforceable, precise and reasonable in all other respects”.

The Planning Portal has compiled a set of model planning conditions. There is a right of appeal against what might be considered an inappropriate condition. By way of example, conditions might include requirements for a development to be completed in accordance with lifetime homes standards; for a commercial premises to have cleaning and extraction equipment approved by the LPA; for a restriction on the activity that can be carried out in or from particular premises; or for the protection of, say, an archaeological site. To have these conditions unfulfilled could materially affect the well-being of individuals and negate the planning process.

Of course, local planning authorities should not be entitled to sit and ignore and not sign off situations where conditions have been properly fulfilled, but the route of deemed consent is a heavy-handed and dangerous remedy. We have no idea how it is to be implemented. For a start, the deeming process will proceed by way of a development order, which is subject only to the negative parliamentary procedure. There does not appear to be any provision requiring an applicant to have attempted or succeeded in discharging the conditions for the deeming to be applied—hence Amendment 80. No judgment is required of the Secretary of State as to whether any adverse consequences for the community would arise from a discharge—hence Amendment 81. There are lessening opportunities to mitigate the adverse impacts on public amenities, health and well-being—hence Amendment 79D. There seems to be the prospect that the applicant himself may be given the opportunity to decide when the deemed discharge is to take effect, and no rationale is offered for this—hence Amendment 82. There is no certain relief from the deeming or any delays in the local planning authority responding within the given period that are wholly or partly caused by statutory consultees, the applicant or indeed anyone else. In short, we have no idea how this proposition is to be applied, and we trust that the Minister will be able to give us at least some comfort today.

If a development has been frustrated by unreasonable conditions in the first place, and a failure to address their discharge in the second, it is of course reasonable that the matter is addressed. But the work of the LGA, in conjunction with the BPF, the Planning Officers Society and the Home Builders Federation, should clearly be given a chance before these draconian measures are taken.

In conclusion, perhaps I might ask some questions of the Minister. Could this lead to conditions not having to be implemented or acted on? If so, in what circumstances can that happen? For example, in response to the Killian Pretty report, the then Government identified the use of approved contractors and a fast-track appeals process for matters concerned only with the discharge of conditions. Have the Government given any further consideration to that route, rather than the one adopted in this clause? What research have the Government undertaken to determine why local authorities are not responding to the application for consent, agreement or approval in due time? What is the extent of this failure? In how many local planning authorities has this happened, and how frequently? What consideration have the Government given to the potential negative effect of this clause in discouraging some essential conditions on the basis that the local planning authority has the capacity to deal only with other, fewer conditions—thereby impacting on the quality of development? What is the Government’s assessment of the capacity of local planning authority departments to deal with this, given the huge reductions in funding that local authorities have had to endure?

These are hugely important issues that go to the heart of our planning process, and I look forward to the support of other noble Lords and the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

[Baroness Andrews]

My Lords, it is with some concern that I rise to address these amendments and to support the thoughtful and measured way in which my noble friend has introduced them, including the debate on whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. I shall focus on a specific aspect that comes within the scope of the clause stand-part debate.

I am very concerned about this, and I speak, in part, on behalf of a wide range of heritage organisations. I no longer have a hat on, and therefore no longer have an interest to declare. I am, however, still very engaged with the work of organisations ranging from English Heritage and the Heritage Alliance to the British Archaeological Association and many others. Their concerns exemplify some of the major concerns that have been raised by noble Lords about the impact of the clause as a whole. These organisations understand very well how easy it is to destabilise the planning system. They were engaged first-hand with the creation of the National Planning Policy Framework, with all the checks and balances that took a long time to work out. It is, in fact, an important and delicate balance, which we would be wise to ensure that we stick to. Of course, they are also concerned, not just with the monuments, but with the everyday, ordinary environments in which we live in this country: our towns, villages and everywhere else. The fact that Clause 20 has raised such profound concerns among these senior organisations should give the Government pause for thought.

I see in this clause yet another attempt to wrench the planning system around in a way that is deeply inappropriate. Over the past few years we have seen the Government reach for the planning system as a recourse and sometimes as a first resort, to try to tackle problems which are far more fundamental, being rooted in economic and social problems. Planning is not the problem. I am afraid that I see this as another casual, Pavlovian response to problems which have their roots in the lack of capacity of local authorities and the complexity of what it takes to have a balanced planning system. This clause will have very perverse—even disastrous—consequences, and my noble friends are quite right to speak with seriousness about it.

I understand the frustration that comes from delays in the system and that the provision is intended to address the stalemate of “no response” from local authorities. But my goodness, what a hammer has been picked up here. It is so broadly cast at the moment, as my noble friend said, and it is not at all obvious what safeguards are to be put in place. I say to the Government: given what local authorities, developers and communities are facing in the maelstrom of planning at the moment, yet another element of uncertainty is really bad news.

I will explain how I think that will affect what happens to what we call heritage protection, which is shorthand for ensuring that our historical environment is accommodated within our future plans and contributes to them in an economic and social way. Much of our heritage protection is effected through conditions attached to outline planning permission, because it is detailed work. Archaeological surveys and design detailing of extensions and new buildings—for example, to cathedrals or to some of our historic monuments—are very often secured by conditions. The department knows this very well. They are fundamental to heritage protection—to what we end up with: what it looks like, what it feels like and what it will do. That is what is at risk here. I therefore ask the noble Lord: what will be the situation vis-à-vis outline planning permission? Can we take it that the situation will be different in the future in relation to both outline planning permission and conditions? Can I please have a clear answer on that?

Of course, we are aware of the need for best process. However, we have to ensure that the process does not sacrifice the best outcomes for what we all want by means of the outcome of the eventual planning decision. Therefore, while it is the applicant’s right to have their application for discharge of the condition dealt with fairly and expeditiously, clearly the historic environment agencies would be very concerned by a provision that meant simply that if the applicant heard nothing back, the condition was discharged.

We all know what it means to be overwhelmed by work. The volume of letters and e-mails we get in this House alone is not as great as it is for Ministers but we know what the noble Lord means when he says that things get overlooked and slip by. As my noble friend said, we are looking at issues of capacity here. Perhaps the Minister could write to tell me how many planning officers have been lost from local authorities across the country. That is a bit onerous, but I know that surveys have been carried out by the Local Government Association, for example, and by English Heritage. Perhaps the Minister could help us to focus on exactly what lack of capacity we are looking at. We know that they have lost many senior and deeply experienced staff; there has been a sharing of jobs; and altogether, a huge strain has been placed on planning departments in recent years. I am not making that an excuse for shoddy work, but it is all too easy for planning departments simply not to be able to do things in the time allocated these days, and there is a huge amount of pressure on them—we must realise that.

The sector would certainly like clarification that safeguards will be put in place to protect the historic environment from any unintended consequences arising from this clause. Any system that allows decisions by default on such important matters is very perilous. Our historical environment is extremely fragile. Once it is gone, it is gone. The safeguards put forward in some of these amendments are certainly worth looking at. They include allowing the LPA to extend time for consideration where there is reasonable justification, or a second notice requirement from the applicants subsequent to the application to invoke the default provision if they have heard nothing back. The latter is to reduce the risk of the application having been overlooked.

We are determined to pursue this clause and its implications, for very serious reasons. I have spoken about the historic environment, but the same problems apply to the natural environment and many other aspects of decision-making where everything depends on the quality of the judgment and the detail that is set out in conditions, because that is what makes the difference between good planning and bad planning, good design and bad design and places that are worth living in and places where we think, “Why on earth did they let that happen?”. I hope the Minister will take that seriously.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Andrews]

I am very grateful for that useful information, and it is good news about the consultation process, but in relation to the question I asked about the number of planners who have been lost, the Minister put a great deal of emphasis on the Killian Pretty review, which was published five years ago. When she comes back to me with those statistics, will she break them down so that we can see the rate of attrition among planners, before and after Killian Pretty, and have some sort of time series? In relation to the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, about the evidence, did the Killian Pretty review say why it thought these delays were occurring? There is an absence of hard evidence of what is going wrong in the system. What is the problem we are trying to solve? That is what the Committee is keen to get to the bottom of. Did the Killian Pretty review recommend this as a solution, or is it a solution that has been generated by the department?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I shall see what further information I am able to provide to the noble Baroness following today’s debate. I do not know how much I can provide.

[Baroness Andrews]

I am very happy for the Minister to write to me.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I will certainly see what is available. Fundamentally—not to pre-empt the further research I shall do—I think the evidence we have gathered is that a huge amount of effort goes into the process of deciding whether something should receive planning permission, but the conditions post that planning permission are not attracting the priority and importance that we need them to have once it has been decided that something should be built. It is as basic as that. We have already talked about the way we all share a common interest in seeing supply coming through more quickly. This is an area where we think there is scope for improvement. With proper safeguards in place, the measures that we are putting forward will go a long way to address a problem that clearly exists.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Andrews Excerpts

Thursday 5th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, in this debate, I want to focus on one of the most understated aspects of the gracious Speech, which has already been referred to in passing by my noble friend Lord Adonis and the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor. It is, of course, housing. We were told that one of the themes of this year’s Queen’s Speech was to be aspiration. There is one thing to which we all surely aspire and that is decent homes for ourselves and our children. That aspiration has never been so far out of the reach of so many people, and the Queen’s Speech, I am afraid, does very little to make it a reality.

We were also told that this was to be a bold Queen’s Speech. There are very welcome references to garden cities, and isolated initiatives such as selling high-value government land and more Help to Buy, but they require close scrutiny and certainly do not add up in terms of scale, investment or coherence to what is so obviously needed. If this were to have been a bold strategy, it would have had to set out a full and proper vision and strategy for housing the nation—a clear prospectus for meeting the needs and ambitions of all communities, all tenures and all ages. To match the national mood of anxiety about housing, it should have been at the core of the text of the Queen’s Speech—not a series of marginalia—recognising the frustration in so many families as they watch prices and rents spiral out of control.

I had hoped today that we could debate housing within the wider context of the economy. It was disappointing that the Minister made such passing reference to housing, not even mentioning it in his list of infrastructures that drive the economy and should be prioritised. The noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, has wisely drawn attention to the real fears that by stoking the housing bubble in London there is a threat to a very fragile economic recovery. The London housing crisis exemplifies with brutal clarity the extent to which we have a not only dysfunctional but dangerous housing market, fuelled by policies focused largely on demand that have not impacted sufficiently on supply. Without being at all partisan, surely we can all agree that there is something seriously wrong with a housing policy whereby £23 billion is spent on housing benefit to subsidise housing costs and only £1.5 billion is spent on capital investment in social housing for those in greatest need.

“Crisis” is an overworked word but is justified in the context of London. Every day, as the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, said, we see absentee millionaires’ flats rising on every available space in central London. I hope the Government will not only listen hard to the call for monitoring that process but think about the actions required to reduce it. Less visible are the families being driven out of London by the bedroom tax, or the young and professional families who are stuck in insecure and overpriced rented accommodation, with no hope of buying into the market or moving out of London. Young people are paying a fortune for the most appalling, shared rented accommodation. We in the last Government thought we had come close to solving the problems of homelessness and evictions by investing in homeless hostels and improving conditions. It turned out not to be the case. The national association of ALMOs reflected only yesterday that the percentage of rent arrears in households affected by the bedroom tax had increased from 37% to 69% by the end of June 2013, and is now about 27% above the base position.

To date the Government have tackled the housing crisis primarily through welfare restrictions and advantageous mortgage take-up. A fair and effective housing policy needs to plan to restore the balance of the housing market to meet the totality of housing needs. The fact is that while Help to Buy can help the few, help to build is the only way in which to help the many. What might a policy focused on help to build consist of? We need clarity and certainty around the number—an accelerated number—of new homes that we need to build, and how they would be financed and distributed across tenures. There is no mystery to the figures. By 2021 we will need to house an additional 221,000 households each year. We also know the price of failure. Almost 10 years ago to the day, Kate Barker spelled out the problem in her review of housing supply:

“I do not believe that continuing at the current rate of housebuilding is a realistic option, unless we are prepared to accept increasing problems of homelessness, affordability and social division … hampering our economic success”.

How very right she was, and she recommended an annual target of 230,000 new homes. In 2007, the last Government were building 170,000 a year, the highest rate for 19 years.

I would therefore be grateful if the Minister could clarify the agreed government target for housebuilding. Is it 200,000, as I understand the Housing Minister to have said, or is it 300,000, as some of her Liberal colleagues are saying? Does she agree that even the lower figure would demand a significant input from public and social providers? What proportion of that housebuilding target will be social housing? Does she agree that there is an indisputable economic case for social housing? This was reinforced recently by no less than PricewaterhouseCoopers, working with the London and Quadrant housing association, in a report called The Numbers Game. It clearly shows that, for those on lowest incomes and in the greatest need, housing at social rents offers the best deal, not just for tenants but for taxpayers and providers. That sort of evidence lends further volume to the chorus that is calling for the Government to remove the cap on the housing revenue account, which stops local authorities from building. That chorus is not just the usual suspects: it includes the Home Builders Federation and the CLG Select Committee. It is not a minority argument. In fact, the Government have already conceded the case: borrowing limits have already been raised by £150 million. That is a welcome recognition that the system is not fit for purpose. The logic is to abolish it altogether. Very handily, the Deregulation Bill is coming down the track into this House shortly. It is an obvious vehicle for doing this, which would kick-start more social housing.

The right reverend Prelate has called for more co-operation and partnership working at local level. How right he is. We need to see the LEPs working across boundaries. We need to see the sub-regional partnerships planning systematically for housing. We are making up so much ground that was already in place when we had regional spatial planning. It is a tragedy that we have to reinvent some of that.

Let me suggest a few more things the Government can do quickly, in the next year, to make help to build a reality. My heart sank when I heard of another reform of the planning system. We have only just had the guidance on the National Planning Policy Framework. More than anything else, planners need certainty in the system. They need to know what they will be able to invest in. Why do the Government not look, for example, at legislation to identify and free up land banks, which are deliberately being held back for long periods, to create the range of new delivery vehicles needed if the Government are serious about garden cities—not just garden cities, but good, high-quality, well designed urban extensions? Why do the Government not acknowledge that the new homes bonus has not led to an increase in building? They should go back and have a look at the housing and planning delivery grant, which was really effective.

Help to build also means taking the long view on the demography of this country and planning for a society that is growing older and occupying a lot of housing stock. There are not sufficient decent, high-quality homes for older people to move into. If we made that a priority, recognised that we are dealing with the whole community’s housing needs and integrated housing as the front line for decent health and care for elderly people, we would have a much more intelligent approach to housing and health and care.

The most urgent action is to help what Ed Miliband has called Generation Rent. My noble friend Lord Adonis referred to it as a lost generation, living in insecurity and with soaring costs in the private sector. These are young, vulnerable and exploited people, often in very low-paid jobs or unemployed. Despite being a supposed free market, private renting is a major cost to the taxpayer. It benefits from a patchwork of subsidies, guarantees and tax reliefs. It is the main driver behind the huge escalation in housing benefit. The next Labour Government have committed to build a modern rented sector, with sensible reforms around the core rights of consumers. We can look to other successful countries that are doing that, such as Germany. We can look to New York, where Mayor Bill de Blasio plans to build no fewer than 200,000 affordable units to rent. He has the support of the Real Estate Board of New York behind him, because it knows that a regulated market, properly done, has the self-interested support of the whole market. Why can we not do that in London, instead of letting the market rip?

Finally, there is time to do two things that can make a big difference. Legislation can still be brought forward this year to regulate letting agents and to extend the powers available to deal with rogue landlords. Those two immediate changes would help the most vulnerable. We have a year before the election. It is not too late to do any of that. Somehow I suspect we will have to wait for another Government to do it. I hope that will be a Labour Government, who will put different values and priorities into place.

Local Government Finance Bill

Baroness Andrews Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Shipley]

I will make three very brief points on these two amendments. The first is simply to acknowledge that, given that council tax support is to be localised, it should therefore follow that local councils have the responsibility for deciding what their schemes entail. That seems a very important principle. We will debate later the role of the Secretary of State in defining any exclusions at all.

Secondly, a scheme agreed by a local authority would be inappropriate if it did not have regard to disabled people and carers, not least for the reason that it would not meet the need of an equality impact assessment if due regard had not been given. However, the list is not exclusive, and we shall shortly go further into the definition of vulnerability. One weakness of the Bill at the moment is that it does not actually define vulnerability adequately.

I agree absolutely with the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on the cumulative impact and the Government’s understanding—and this is not a particular criticism of this Government, because it has always been the case. Governments are not very good at seeing the cumulative impact of their legislation and the whole picture. A number of us have become very reliant upon the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation for pointing out some of these things to us, sometimes one would hope before the event but occasionally after the event as well. Governments should be smarter at understanding the cumulative impact of what they are doing.

However, in all this there is another option for local councils, which is to maintain their current schemes effectively and to make the cost of that a general charge on council tax. I might come back to that when we talk about vulnerability, because, where council tax will be localised, vulnerable people will have to be protected. How nice it would be if we had more than one additional band in the council tax banding—not just band I but maybe some further ones—because there is a real risk of redistribution occurring from those who are less well off to those who are better off, as the IFS and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation keep pointing out to us.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Andrews)]

My Lords, there is a Division in the House and we will adjourn for 10 minutes.

Localism Bill

Baroness Andrews Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Andrews]

My Lords, I spoke briefly on the topic in Committee and I was very glad that it reappeared on the Marshalled List, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best, as I thought that pre-emption might possibly mean that we would not have the opportunity to discuss what is a really important element of the Bill. I commend both the amendments. The questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, were absolutely pertinent, and I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to answer them in some detail. They go to the heart of what local authorities are trying to do at the moment.

The only thing that I want to say is that we should reflect on what is happening on the ground. These may sound like extremely technical issues, but in fact local authorities, a few of which I have seen in the past week, are wrestling with all manner of different states of maturity in relation to their planning policies: some have completed LDFs, but they do not know what will constitute an up-to-date LDF because of the need to accommodate with the national planning policy framework; some have not completed their LDFs but are quite close to doing so, but they are finding, for example, that their original planning assumptions on housing are being challenged by local people and local developers. Developers are challenging some of the decisions based on the premises that preceded this situation. There is genuine confusion on the ground and a real problem with uncertainty. We all know that the most crucial elements in delivering a proper planning system are certainty and clarity.

The noble Lord was right to raise the issue of planning guidance. When we reflect back on PPS5, one of the reasons why it was such a successful planning statement was that it had a great deal of clear and useful planning guidance, so there is a precedent.

On the transitional period, I know that the Government must have at the back of their minds the fact that almost half of local authorities have not yet completed their LDF in the time available. It was a very difficult challenge that the previous Government imposed on local authorities to take on board for the first time the notion of spatial planning. Too many demands were made on the nature of the conceptualisation and on the nature of the documents, so we cannot easily extrapolate from the time that that took to the time it will take to accommodate the transitional changes. I would ask for a transitional period, but possibly not for as long as two years. I know that clarity and speed are really important and that people need to get on with it and remove the uncertainties.

Finally, we need to bear in mind the fact that all this is happening at a time when local authorities are losing planning staff, conservation staff and some of their most important expertise while being faced with a bank of rolling fog around how to go forward. Anything that the noble Baroness can say to reassure local authorities, and not least noble Lords, will be extremely welcome if it deals with some of these difficult issues on the absence of transitional arrangements.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who talked about clarity and speed. I think that both the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Greaves, have performed a service by tabling these amendments. They are a prescription not for foot-dragging but for orderly progress, and it is essential to have that. Clarity, yes; speed, up to a point; but orderly progress is absolutely essential. There has to be a transitional period. I am sure that my noble friend the Minister will accept that. Whether or not she accepts the amendments, it is incumbent on the Government to explain to us that there will be proper transition and that we are not plunged from one situation into another. The fact that so many authorities do not have plans gives us all cause for concern. There has to be proper time to put those plans together.

The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, was right to indicate that this is not the easiest of times for local authorities. Many have laid off staff and have not replaced conservation officers and people who did a vital job. In my local authority of South Staffordshire, which had an admirable record on these matters, the absolutely first-class conservation officer took early retirement in the early part of last year and has not been replaced. The local authority is trying to replace the work that he did, but without him it is not easy. For every possible reason, therefore, I ask the Minister to let us have a period of orderly transition and progress, so that if we are trying to create a better situation, we do not confound our own efforts by over-haste. Once again, there is good sense in the motto that I have quoted in this House before: festina lente.

Localism Bill

Baroness Andrews Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

I do not think that anyone would accuse me of not being committed to sustainable development. Indeed, I declare my interest in helping others throughout the world to promote this issue. However, I have a warning about this amendment. We are trying to change the planning system in order to achieve a number of ends including ensuring that Britain is able to grow in a sustainable way and that the time taken by the process should not be such that we avoid all those good ends. I started being concerned about a detailed definition of this sort when I realised how many people will use it to take the courts into consideration. I hope that the Government will recognise that there are two elements to this: there is the natural desire of those of us who are concerned with sustainable development to ensure that no future Government with less concern should be able to use this Act to avoid some of the necessary decisions which we are making while on the other hand not wanting a definition that brings sustainable development into disrepute because it is used as the mechanism for yet again holding up decisions. I hope that the Government, in considering this amendment whose spirit I wholly support, will think hard about how we do this in a way that does not open this whole thing up to a kind of justiciable approach where every person desiring development will be able to find something here which they can use to try to overturn what a local authority has done.

Secondly, I am concerned about the definition. I know it draws from all sorts of learned and worthy bodies, but the truth is that sustainable development is two words: “sustainable”, and “development”. An awful lot of green people talk about sustainability as if development is not in it, and a lot of people who are keen on development talk as if it does not have sustainability in it. It is necessary to stick these two together. If you read this definition, there is a great deal about sustainability, but I am not sure that there is a tremendous amount about development. Yet my noble friend Lord Jenkin, who taught me these things when I was his PPS, is absolutely right to say that these two things come together. They either fuse together, or neither is able to operate on the other side. I hope that in consideration we will take that into account as well.

The third thing we have to take into account is something very fundamental. It is that we ought to move to a stage in which you do not need both words. We ought to move to a stage in which the very word “development” inevitably means that you are going to develop in a sustainable way. Here I have to say something a bit hard about the Government. It does not help when the Government say things for convenience which suggest that they do not have their heart where it ought to be. It does not help when the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggests that we are going to move at a slower speed in dealing with our emissions than the law says we have to and proposes something illegal. It does not help us when those things happen because then others can doubt our fundamental support for these beliefs.

I say to the Minister that it is crucial that we go further than we have gone so far in making sure that people understand that we mean business. The first Prime Minister to use the words “sustainable development” was John Major. I know that because I wrote that bit of the speech but, in the end, people do not give speeches unless they are happy about them—at least, if they have anything about them. He used those words because he believed fundamentally—this has to be said—that it is in the nature of conservatism that we develop sustainability. That is what the country party, on which we are based, had as its heart. We conserved; we believed in handing on to the next generation something better than we received from the previous one. There is much in this Bill which will help us to do that. We need the speed to do it, but we also need the clarity to ensure that people do not fail to recognise the two elements of sustainability and development until it becomes so much second nature that we need only one word because it means both because we have redefined it properly.

[Baroness Andrews]

My Lords, there is much that the noble Lord has said with which I agree. I must put on my English Heritage hat and declare an interest. One of the disappointments that we have tried to address in this Bill is the need to get greater clarity about the nature of sustainability. While I see the point that the noble Lord is making, that sustainability and development are two words, it is sustainability that raises greater confusion and there has been a marked lack of clarity about the whole notion. The debate that we have seen in recent weeks about the nature of sustainability in relation to development has exemplified the search for general agreement about the content of sustainability.

It is difficult because there are competing definitions, but I support the noble Lord’s amendment. I spoke at some length in Committee about this and will not repeat it, but we have inclusivity in this definition, in terms of the lifetime issue of how we must address sustainable developments in future. It also specifies content and that gets us a long way down the track. It is also a definition that is fairly familiar, so we might be able to get some agreement on it. Whether it is workable, practicable and applicable raises enormous questions about the way that the planning system operates.

I also have a great deal of sympathy with what the right reverend Prelate has said about what else might go into a definition of sustainability. I may be drifting into the danger of a list, but I feel strongly that one of the elements that is not in this amendment—and the Minister might take this away and consider it—is including something about our vital cultural and heritage needs, including those of future generations. That is an important guiding principle for what we mean by sustainability in many different ways. It would also fit alongside this expression of a strong, healthy and just society.

I do not want to draft an amendment on my feet, but one might add, for example, “meeting the diverse social, cultural, heritage needs of all people in existing and future communities and promoting well-being and social cohesion and inclusion”. This is important, because if we are to take this definition of sustainability seriously, this is a moment when we might be able to agree and implement something. It has been debated for goodness knows how long in this Chamber and I believe that our culture and heritage fit this Bill. They feed our sense of belonging, of pride, identity and resilience and they feed into our roots of personal and community life. They express, as the right reverend Prelate said, our sense of community. They help us to know who we are and what we are capable of. All that is about sustainability for future generations, for the future shape and feel of our country.

I hope that, if we are to debate the amendment—and maybe I should bring it back at a further stage—the Minister will consider whether she can be flexible in her approach to it and maybe include the new elements of the definition.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises some extremely important points, wearing as she does proudly and properly her hat as chairman of English Heritage. I want to say one thing: sustainable development, as my noble friend Lord Deben has talked about eloquently, is not something of itself. We are talking about the context in which that development takes place. It is crucially important—if we are concerned about our heritage, the beauty of our landscape and the balance of it in this country—that what is added to our environment does not detract from it. For instance, if we are to have development in or near a historic town, village or particularly important building, that development should enhance the environment into which it is going and not spoil it.

That is my underlying concern about the Bill and some of the interpretations that have misguidedly been placed on it. I was greatly reassured after one conversation with my noble friend the Minister last week. I am utterly convinced that her heart is in the right place and that she does not wish to despoil any more than I do. But we have an opportunity as we debate this Bill to make it clear beyond any doubt that where there is to be an addition or development it must not only be sustainable in itself but must further sustain the environment into which it comes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Andrews]

Perhaps I can buy the Minister some time while she looks at her notes by asking another question about the nature of the order. Why is an order necessary? Does this help to deal with the issues we raised in Committee about transitional arrangements that would have involved saving part of the regional strategies where they were relevant to the LDFs, so that local authorities would not have to repeat all the work that went into making that part of whatever strategy had been located in the regional strategy? If so, it would be very welcome.

[Baroness Hanham]

In reply to the noble Baroness’s question, the noble Lord, Lord Best, has an amendment on transitional arrangements that we will get to later, so perhaps we can deal with that when we get to it.

I will answer as many questions as I can and then, if the noble Lord will forgive me, I will write on those I have not answered. The public consultation is 12 weeks. Local enterprise partnerships will be able to respond if they wish. They are not required to, but they will be consulted as one of the organisations that will be expected to have an interest. It is an environmental assessment from the regional strategies, exactly as it says it is. Initially, if there is a major objection with one strategy that has to be looked at under the environmental assessment, it will not be able to go forward in a bulk order. At the moment, the expectation is that that order will come forward separately or they might all come forward on the same day. It is the negative process at the moment.

The intention is to revoke the regional strategies and all eight strategies as soon as possible after Royal Assent to stop muddle of any sort occurring. We can do it separately or together. The face of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, always delights me because it is so revealing. I know when I am saying something he does not agree with. The provisions are simply to make sure that those orders can be revoked. The local development frameworks still have to conform to the regional spatial strategies until they are revoked. Anything in them that is required, even if they are developing them at the moment, will have to be taken into account.

I did not pick up all the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I will make sure that he gets an answer. He has the puzzled look of one who is going to ask me again.