Environmental Policies: Timeliness and Effectiveness

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Lord Benyon

Monday 22nd January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

When we came into government, we knew about 10% of the sewage outflows from water companies into rivers. We now know 100%, because we require them to report them. Technology is our friend here: we are able to use telemetry, which can now do the work of hundreds of people in real time, producing a message to a phone requiring an instant response. I think we are much better equipped to deal with it. Is it perfect? No.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government and my noble friend, who I know is passionate about protecting the environment and the need to do so. I support his claim that this is the most environmentally friendly Government we have had. Before 2010, no Government took this matter particularly seriously. However, will he take on board some of the issues that have been noted about resourcing, particularly of the Environment Agency? It is apparently not attending all the sewage outflows, so it could well be that significant numbers are happening without us knowing. Will he take the issue of resourcing back to the department?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. In my absolute belief in what we have achieved over the last decade and a bit, I am absolutely not complacent—none of us is. The OEP’s report is really important. We set up the OEP to hold this Government and future Governments to account on this. On the issue my noble friend raises, we have increased the number of Environment Agency officers who should and must respond to all such reports. On water quality as a whole, we have put in place, through our plan for water, the most comprehensive list of measures possible to make sure that not only water companies but farmers, home owners and others who are responsible for the quality of the water in our rivers are held to account when they get it wrong.

Water Companies: Licences

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Lord Benyon

Monday 24th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

There was no information on this until 2013, when I required water companies to publish a full list. We now have—or will have in a matter of weeks—100% of all the monitors. The Environment Agency investigates anywhere a fault is not being correctly measured. The telemetry will exist to measure the quality of water in all these outflows, above the outflow and below it, so accurate comparisons can be taken. That sharing of information, which was lamentably woeful but which we have corrected, will be a key part of our attempts to successfully clear up our rivers.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, the Government can be extremely proud of their record on the environment with regard to the Environment Act and a number of the measures to ensure improvement that I know my noble friend the Minister is personally committed to. Can he explain to the House whether he believes that Ofwat has sufficient powers to deal with this enormous problem that is exercising the public so much across the country?

Water Companies: Pollution Penalties

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Lord Benyon

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, apologises for being absent today as he is on a parliamentary delegation to Madrid. On his behalf, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my farming interests as set out in the register. Defra is preparing to consult on plans to expand the use of, and raise the cap on, penalties that the Environment Agency can impose on water companies for serious breaches of rules, as the Prime Minister and our Secretary of State have made clear. All options are on the table, including a £250 million cap. The Environment Agency’s chair supports the review of penalties and is working closely with Defra as the consultation progresses. We will ensure that our regulators have all the powers they need to hold polluters to account.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his Answer. The noble Duke would like to ask: is the department contemplating resiling from the Government’s current position stated at the Dispatch Box that water companies will incur very heavy fines of up to £250 million for breaking the law on illegal discharges? My noble friend will recall that two years ago Southern Water was fined £93 million for serious illegal discharges; there were warnings at the time that the fine was too low, and indeed the company was not deterred from continuing to discharge sewage. Does my noble friend think it appropriate for the chair of the Environment Agency to state publicly that a proposed £250 million fine is “crazy”, and does he share my concern that the chair of our main regulator should express such lack of confidence or belief in the regulatory regime that he oversees?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I think that if the chair of the Environment Agency was here, he would hope that I could voice more clearly his views and the distinction that is understood between unlimited fines, which the EA can pursue through the courts, and penalties which can be delivered by the Environment Agency and Ofwat. We are absolutely not resiling from anything that has been announced. It is right, for example, to look at the variable monetary penalties. They are currently capped at £250,000, which we do not believe is a significant enough deterrent. However, very serious fines can and should be a sanction for water companies that knowingly break the law. There is the criminal sanction as well.

Water Companies: Environmental Pollution

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Lord Benyon

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Strangely, no. The investment that water companies put into our water infrastructure is agreed with Ofwat. They cannot go away from that in their five-year plan. If the noble Baroness can give me evidence of where they have broken the requirements of the independent regulator, I will be very happy to take it up.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I commend the Government on accepting much of the thrust of the amendment tabled by the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, to the Environment Bill, but I hope the Minister will agree with me that we need to go further and need urgent action. At a meeting with Ofwat, I was pleased that it seemed to be taking this issue more seriously. I would be grateful if my noble friend can confirm that, first, the scale of the fines needs to be larger so that it does not become an acceptable cost of doing business rather than a deterrent to bad behaviour. Secondly, might the Government support Fleur Anderson’s Private Member’s Bill to tackle upstream causes by banning plastic wet wipes which cause such problems for the sewage network?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. She makes very good points. The independent Sentencing Council review will, I hope, tackle her first point. I entirely agree about the problems imposed on customers and us all by wet wipes. We have announced a call for evidence which will explore a possible ban on single-use wet wipes containing plastic. I am very happy to work with Fleur Anderson on that.

Wet Wipes: Disposal

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Lord Benyon

Tuesday 25th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I hope I can. This issue is an absolute priority for us and fits in very well with a string of measures that the Government have taken in recent years to tackle plastics and the pollution effects that they have caused. In some cases the plastics in wet wipes are polyester, in some cases they are viscous—that is, they bind the fabric together—and sometimes they are spun into it.

Concerns have been raised by health organisations that wish to continue to use wet wipes because they see them as fundamental to hygiene in hospitals and other places. I hope that this year we will find a solution that reflects the results of our call for evidence, that we will move forward and that everyone supporting the Bill in the other place and here, and everyone who shares my concerns about this pollution problem, will find a solution that we can all be happy with.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, with 11 billion wet wipes being used every year in this country and 90% of them containing plastic, the public are understandably in need of better and clearer information. Indeed, the flushable standards are voluntary. Can the Minister reassure the House that the flushable standards and the lack of use of plastic will be an urgent priority? Can he give us any timeline for when that might happen?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Currently, Water UK defines plastic as

“synthetic organic material (e.g. petro chemical derived plastic fibres)”.

Water UK has said that that Fine to Flush, the standard that it is applying, contains the flexibility to change within the evolving definition of plastics and that the standard is awarded only for a two-year to three-year period to enable it to be up to date. The Government are working with the industry to find solutions, but ultimately it is for the Government to regulate and we will do so.

Water: Sewage

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Lord Benyon

Wednesday 1st December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am full of admiration for how the noble Lord manages to find a Brexit angle on even quite a domestic matter. There is currently no disruption to the supply of water, its treatment or the treatment of wastewater. There was a contingency measure put in place but it has not been required by any water company.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, further to my question on Monday regarding a ban on wet wipes, can my noble friend comment on whether, with wet wipes being a significant cause of sewage blockages or overflows, the Government might support the Bill being debated on Friday in the other place to ban wet wipes? Could such a ban be introduced by secondary legislation through the new Section 141A, inserted by the Environment Act, to “prepare a plan” to reduce these discharges?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The Storm Overflows Taskforce is considering wet wipes because they can be a contributing factor, as my noble friend so rightly says, to the overflows at treatment works. Defra has announced a call for evidence, which will explore a possible ban on single-use wet wipes containing plastic. We will be looking closely at the Private Member’s Bill to see whether the Government and the Member of Parliament concerned can work together on this.