Environment Bill

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Lord Adonis

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 26th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, on his determination and persistence on this issue. Equally, I thank my noble friend the Minister, my honourable friend Rebecca Pow and the officials who have engaged so sincerely and robustly with us in exploring ways forward.

I am grateful for the progress we have made so far. However, before the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, laid amendments to this Bill, the Government seemed reluctant to place an actual duty on companies. I am hopeful that we can be extremely proud of the changes that we in this House have made in bringing this issue to the forefront of public opinion and prompting action from the Government.

I too express my abhorrence for any vitriol levelled against honourable Members in the other place. Have we not learned in recent weeks the dangers of that type of discourse and personal abuse? I implore noble Lords and those who may still have significant concerns about this Bill to accept that the progress we have made has been made in good faith by Ministers and officials who sincerely wish to make this a landmark piece of legislation—I believe it will be—and are committed to the environmental causes that are so important to so many of us.

Without the duty that the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, proposes, it is entirely possible that little or nothing would happen. That is not safe for public health. I declare my interests as in the register. I recognise the importance of private water utilities to many pension funds and institutional portfolios, which rely on their generous dividends. I have no interest in seeing these companies pushed into bankruptcy or public ownership, but I believe they have neglected their sewage overflow problems for years. They have failed to invest sufficiently to limit the problem and have even played fast and loose with the requirements to report overflows and allowed many illegal discharges. It is time to legislate to force them to spend significant sums to make up for past underspending and egregious behaviour, rather than relying on further promises which leave us with horribly polluted waters.

As the Rivers Trust said—I commend it on its work—more than half of Britain’s rivers are in poor ecological condition due to sewage discharges. This amendment does not call for the immediate elimination of sewage discharges but for ongoing reductions. Clearly, this will take time, but a new duty is so important as we have not really even started.

I noticed this afternoon that the Government have just announced and released on the Defra website plans to further strengthen the Bill with their own amendment to be enshrined in law, which I am led to believe will ensure that water companies have a duty to progressively reduce the adverse impact of sewage discharges from storm overflows. I sincerely hope that that is the case. For that to happen we will need to pass this amendment in this House tonight. I also congratulate my right honourable friend Philip Dunne and my honourable friend Richard Graham and others in the other place who have been working so hard behind the scenes to ensure that we move to a much better place on this amendment.

I therefore hope that noble Lords will support the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, in this important amendment, and I hope and believe that the Minister and the Government will take us to the right place very soon.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, in view of the Minister’s remarks, I should intervene briefly. The noble Baroness just made the crucial point that there appears to have been a major change of government policy. Let us not delude ourselves: that is because of the strength of parliamentary and public opinion. We have been doing our job in making it clear that the disgraceful situation which my noble friend Lord West, the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and others have referred to, should not continue.

The Minister was so busy criticising me that he did not say explicitly that he is accepting the amendment in the name of the noble Duke. Are the Government accepting it? I see that the noble Baroness is shaking her head. Is it the case that they are not accepting the amendment? So we will have to vote. That is quite a significant point. The Government are still not in a situation where they are clearly accepting what the noble Duke said. The Government could, procedurally, accept the amendment in the name of the noble Duke, it would go back, and they could then move a further amendment.

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill

Debate between Baroness Altmann and Lord Adonis

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 17th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I echo the words of previous speakers. I have added my name to Amendment 61 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, but I also support the amendment of my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. As the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has said, either approach would at least give a fighting chance of avoiding the sort of gaming of creditors that we have seen so often in the past. Indeed, when I was first involved in the pensions system in the early 2000s, the insolvency restructuring that pre-packs have sometimes engaged in was widespread as a means of dumping the defined benefit pension liabilities.

I fear that this Bill will pave the way for the same type of activity, to the detriment of the Pension Protection Fund and all employers sponsoring defined benefit pension schemes. Therefore, I urge my noble friend to take these amendments seriously; I plead that he look at the activities of the Pre Pack Pool and move to a mandatory approach, which, as has been so well described, would clearly better protect against the sorts of corporate activity that have so often brought capitalism into disrepute.

[Lord Adonis (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I have two specific questions for the Minister. Is it the case, as reported in the Times on 26 May, that the Pre Pack Pool’s oversight committee has written to the Minister specifically, notifying him that it will be “unsustainable” unless referrals of pre-pack sales are made mandatory? Secondly, could he confirm that Teresa Graham, the accountant who led the review referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is now in favour of mandatory referrals? She is quoted in the Times as saying:

“To see the demise of the Pre Pack Pool would be utter folly.”


If that is the case, I cannot see how the Government can resist the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, unless they believe that the pool and its whole policy is wrong. If the Minister is not as forthcoming as he expects, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, will have the courage of his convictions and bring this back to the House on Report, because this looks otherwise like a classic case of willing the means but not the ends.