Listed Investment Companies (Classification etc) Bill [HL]

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 15th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, on bringing the Bill forward. I also thank Ministers and Bill team officials who have worked so hard on this issue, and the many industry experts, and Herbert Smith Freehills’ legal team, who have made such contributions to this Bill and to my previous Private Member’s Bill, which received support from all sides of this House in the last Session and from which this Bill follows on.

The aim, as we all know, is to protect and revive a success story of the UK’s financial markets—a global leader. Although some may perceive this to be a higher-risk investment, for most consumers it is a lower-risk method of achieving exposure to sustainable growth or real estate investments than buying an individual company’s shares. This is a diversified spread, managed expertly, of a number of companies, so the overall risk should be lower, yet the current regulations and legislation treat these as if they are much higher-risk.

It is very good to see that we have laid the PRIIPs and CCI statutory instruments, and that the Treasury has issued its own statement. The Government seem to have encouraged or enabled the Financial Conduct Authority to issue emergency forbearance that states that the current practice in the markets, which this Bill aims to correct, is inappropriate and should not continue.

Currently, closed-end listed investment companies and their investors, or potential investors, are still not being treated fairly. Were the Bill to be adopted immediately, or as quickly as parliamentary time allows, that would solve the problem. The forbearance was supposed to do that. I will ask the Minister about this. The CCI legislation intended to replace the current system seems still to want to cover listed closed-end investment companies, even though there are clear reasons for them to be treated as an independent sector—they are not like open-ended funds.

Indeed, a highlight are the real estate investment trusts, about which I would be grateful if the Minister could speak today or write to me on. Will the new legislation the Government have proposed include companies such as British Land and Landsec as listed investment companies under the CCI regime? Currently, that seems to be what is implied: they will be classed as CCIs, which would be a significant issue in the market. Does the Minister know of any other country that treats its investment companies, such as REITs, as if they were consumer composite investments?

The CEO of the FCA said, in his reply to the House of Lords Financial Services Regulation Committee:

“Under the Consumer Duty, platform firms should be determining value and listing for retail consumers on a holistic basis, rather than any single data line in the EMT”.


That means that the current practice in the markets is not working for the consumer. I ask the Minister to respond to us with the Government’s attitude to what is happening, as the retail platforms seem to be deliberately not complying with the Government’s wishes.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I also thank the Minister for having listened to the points that were made in our previous debates about the importance of ACSPs’ verification statements being made publicly available and for making this comprehensive suite of amendments. Indeed, I think he has gone further than my original amendments on the subject and the Bill is considerably strengthened as a result. I am extremely grateful.

Perhaps I may add one quick word in support of Amendment 93 from the noble Lord, Lord Agnew. A very high number of the ACSPs are going to be authorised and regulated by HMRC, and it is an unfortunate truth that such regulation is not the principal function of HMRC. Accordingly, that regulation has been somewhat light-touch. I ask the Minister to reassure us that considering how HMRC carries out this role will be an important part of the forthcoming consultation on AML regulation? The only requirement to become an ACSP is to be regulated for AML, so we need to make sure that regulation is robust and that only genuine, suitable persons are therefore authorised.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and congratulate him on this suite of amendments. I know that my noble friend is keen that this should be a really landmark Bill and that he has worked really hard to listen carefully and ensure that it is as robust as it can be. I know his dedication to this matter, and I thank him for it.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

Although my noble friend the Minister has described me in very flattering terms today, for which I am grateful, I will not add to the flattery, as his noble kinsman is no longer sitting next to me. I just want to add a note of caution, because it is on the record in Amendment 93 from my noble friend Lord Agnew, on the possibility of HMRC taking AML to be of equal priority to tax collecting, essentially. I declare an interest as chairman of the Finance Bill Sub-Committee of the Economic Affairs Committee that investigated R&D tax credits, which led to HMRC’s accounts being qualified given the level of uncertainty. I just want to put it on the record that we all want HMRC to focus on tax collection, with fraud focused on in other areas.

Whistleblowing Framework

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Tuesday 16th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think my noble friend may want to ask that on the pensions Question.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I congratulate the Government on having a review of whistleblowing, which clearly is long overdue. I thank my noble friend for his letter and engagement with us on the whistleblowing issue in the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill, but does he consider that there is adequate protection in the current framework against career detriment and dismissal for whistleblowers? Does he not think that those who are working inside firms are best placed to blow the whistle and uncover crimes before any regulator tries to sweep up the mess afterwards? Therefore, looking at examples overseas, such as in America, that seem to work much better than here might be worth considering.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I think I have answered the question about the American system. Having said that, we will of course look at what is current practice and best practice overseas to see how we can take this whole process forward. Surely what we are trying to do is to come up with a world-class whistleblowing framework and structure that protects workers who come forward and risk their employment and, to some extent, their financial future in calling out this potential fraud.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

My Lords, I support what others have said. If we take these amendments as essentially saying that Clause 187 needs to be amplified, I, like the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, do not see the reason for sunsetting in 2030. It is not that far away given that, although this might commence immediately on Royal Assent, there are quite a lot of regulations and other things—and I do not know what the timescale of those will be—before everything is up and running.

As I see it, Clause 187 is about monitoring progress, getting everything up and running and seeing that it is okay, then just saying “that is fine”, but I think there is a case for ongoing monitoring to see what is changing and whether there is a need for any further update. The annual report seems to be a vehicle for that and, like others, I say that that is a good reason for it to continue, rather than being sunsetted, and if need be, perhaps to list a few more things that it will cover. Clause 187 could stay silent on that as it is quite broad, talking about

“the implementation and operation of Parts 1 to 3”.

If you took away the sunset clause, I could probably be quite satisfied.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I briefly thank my noble friend for Clause 187. It is a valid attempt to achieve some of the aims of these amendments, although I wholeheartedly agree that the sunset clause is puzzling. I ask my noble friend to bear in mind that the expertise being offered by this Committee and Amendment 65 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, as well as the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Agnew, are attempting to assist the Government in achieving the objectives that we all wish to see by injecting the difference between theory and practice. The Government want these measures to succeed. The Committee is trying to suggest that there are, in practice, a number of measures identified in each of these amendments—which, of course, could be combined—to guide those overseeing or producing the reports about what the important elements will be if we want to make this work well.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, in terms of timing, it is important to bear in mind that the genesis of much of this legislation can be found as long ago as 2015. It has taken a long time for anything to happen in response to what was then identified as a major threat—the corruption which has permeated our society. Eventually we got the Criminal Finances Act, then there were many promises of legislation, which did not materialise, then we had the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act, which dealt with some aspects of this, and then it took the invasion of Ukraine before we had the last piece of legislation. Now, eight years after the initiative of 2015, we have this legislation, which may or may not be the final chance. So, with respect, keeping the Government up to the mark with an annual report and not having a sunset clause is something we should learn from the very chronology that I have just described.

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[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendments 69 to 71, which the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, has just described so powerfully. Those of us who participated in what we call ECB 1 will remember that there was a great deal of discussion and many points made around the fact that passing legislation is pointless if you do not resource the enforcement bodies that must then carry it out. Reading that debate back, this was covered in detail; I am simply making the point baldly again.

I have three further points to make. The fund would appear to need no new money. It would be funded and administered through the fines and incorporation fees. There may well be pushback on the hypothecation of funds in principle, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, just highlighted, his explanatory statement illustrates that there are plenty of precedents for such a fund. I would also suggest that, for the crime-fighting agencies—if I can call them that—being able to access this money swiftly and flexibly, rather than having to fight up hill and down dale with the Treasury in trying to extract the money from it, would be a great leap forward. After all, it will be they who will have achieved these funds through successful prosecutions.

Let me add one small but important qualification. We are going to need transparent processes and procedures, including audit, for how these funds are used and by whom. However, with that small and rather pedantic caveat, I lend my support to those three amendments.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to my Amendment 106E. In a way, it is an attempt to combine and perhaps strengthen the other amendments in this group: those in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker—he explained them excellently—the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake; and those in the name of my noble friend Lord Agnew, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles.

I welcome the new duties and powers for Companies House. We all know that, as the Government themselves have recognised, there is a severe and growing threat in the area of economic crime. With the pressure on public funding and the fiscal constraints that we know are being and will continue to be faced, funds have to be found for the transformational changes needed to keep pace with the growing and severe threat.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

Can my noble friend explain to the Committee what advantage the Government believe would flow from having low fees for incorporation? There seems to be an idea that we need to raise it to £50 only, as though there is some benefit in having a low fee—I am not sure in what terms, given that the EU average is €300, the US cost is between $570 and $1,400 and the BVI charge £1,000. In the Government’s view, why would there be an objection to going with the Treasury Select Committee recommendation, for example, of at least £100? It would not mean that they could not charge more. It seems to be the general view of the Committee that £100 would not be an unreasonable minimum, at least, for this incorporation fee. The annual fee can always be set in a different way.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate my noble friend’s intervention. It is probably a good thing that we will be cheaper than the EU when it comes to registering a company; we could call it a Brexit dividend. Without being facetious, this is about giving the Government flexibility to ensure that they charge the right amount. I have no personal view on whether it should be £75, £100 or £125; we can have this debate all evening, and I have great sympathy with it. The point is that I do not believe that anyone in this Committee is suggesting a significant change in the volume of cost for either establishing a business or registering it, so it is absolutely right that we should consult widely and make sure both that the right amount is charged and that we have the flexibility to change it one way or the other, if appropriate.