Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 6th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, in opening, my noble friend the Minister stated that the Bill will “benefit people and businesses”, but workers’ and employers’ organisations are united in their opposition to it: neither businesses nor consumers want the Bill. It would leave our country and its framework of rules, laws and protections in a state of prolonged uncertainty.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and a report from the Delegated Powers Committee offer their concerns in stark terms, with the Regulatory Policy Committee giving the impact assessment a red rating—namely, “not fit for purpose”. The Government admit that they do not even know which laws will be lost. I find this truly shocking. I have been in Parliament since 2015 and have watched in horror the stripping away of previous norms in the last couple of years. The idea that we should just throw all of our laws into a big hat, pull out a few, change a few and throw the rest away—without even knowing which ones are which—cannot be the way to run any country, let alone a serious parliamentary democracy. I ask my noble friend a simple question: how is this Bill in the national interest? Are we a parliamentary democracy? Does Parliament have the power to make, change and decide on laws, or has it been surrendered, or are we being asked to surrender it, to a group of Ministers, who may change very frequently? We do not know which Ministers will be in place at any one time.

I believe we have a duty to oppose this. Removing Clause 7’s mandatory directions to courts, removing Clauses 15 and 16’s excessive powers—never tightening regulations—and extending the irresponsible deadline of the end of 2023 would all be improvements, but they are not enough. Where is the comprehensive dashboard of all the laws and regulations that will be removed? Members of Parliament have no idea who will lose out and who will gain. Which laws will be deleted, which will be changed and how far can Parliament assess any of it?

This is not about Brexit; Brexit has happened. My noble friend Lord Frost said that it is part of the logic of Brexit, but I fear that Brexit is being used here as a smokescreen for a deregulatory power grab, the results of which are impossible to gauge—it is recklessly irresponsible. My noble friend insisted that this is not a power grab, but how else do we describe the Government asking Parliament to give up its power of scrutiny over the laws of the land and all its regulations by handing powers to Ministers to tear up regulations just because they may have an EU-related origin?

The overarching soundbite seems to be “regulations must be bad, so we have to get rid of them”, but “regulations” is basically another word for protections. Indeed, regulations can be drivers of growth in themselves; for example, environmental regulations can drive investment in skills, innovation and job creation. They protect every facet of our lives. In the words of the song,

“you don’t know what you got ‘til it’s gone”.

It is not too late for my noble friends and other noble Lords to pull us back from this brink.

Vulnerable Households: Energy Costs

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Let me repeat the answer I gave to my noble friend Lady McIntosh earlier: we used to have a system of social tariffs which was judged to be ineffective. That is why we moved to the warm home discount payment, which, of course, has been increased this year. We keep these matters about the best way of getting support to vulnerable consumers under review, and we will continue to look at this.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

Would my noble friend comment on the need to reform the standing charge for energy pricing? For the most vulnerable households and, for example, single-person households, regardless of how much they try to cut their energy use, they cannot escape the standing charge—which has in many cases doubled to several hundred pounds per year. I understand that part of the rationale for that is to help pay for the cost of failed gas providers, but this charge is paid even by those who have electricity and no gas.

Prepayment Meters

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I say to the noble Lord that prepayment customers do not pay higher tariffs than other customers. They pay slightly more because of the cost of servicing prepayment meters. It is an important distinction. If we were to equalise the cost, that would mean that other customers would pay more to service that, and many other customers in fuel poverty are on credit meters—so I am afraid that there is no easy answer to this problem.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend take back to his department the need not only to look at the forcible installation of prepayment meters but the installation of smart meters? An elderly gentleman I know, living alone, had a smart meter installed. He did not wish that, but it was forced on him. It was installed somewhere he could not see it. He had to climb on to a stepladder to operate it. Inadvertently, he had not paid his bill and he was cut off and left without heating, lighting, computing or a telephone for days and ended up calling an ambulance because his smart meter had let him down. Can my noble friend assure us that any investigation for vulnerable customers will include smart meter installation as well?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I say to my noble friend that I would like to hear more about that case, because I can see a number of potential problems with what she had to say. First, nobody is forced to accept a smart meter. I am the Minister responsible for smart meters and I know that it is the policy that is maintained. Secondly, if you have a smart meter, you do not need to look at the smart meter—that is the whole principle of it. You have a separate display unit, which will provide you with the information that you need. So I would be interested to hear more about that particular case if my noble friend would let me know.

Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 16th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for giving way. I have listened carefully to his arguments and would like to ask him whether he is excluding the other risks associated with fracking. Whether or not there are earthquake risks, surely we have the pollution of the groundwater, the toxic chemicals being released, the ground level ozone, air pollution and the use of large volumes of water in a country which had water shortages not that long ago and indeed where the geography seems to be rather different from that in other countries where fracking has been so successful.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

I have good news for the noble Baroness, because those issues were covered in Shale Gas Extraction in the UK: A Review of Hydraulic Fracturing, produced by the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering. We are all constantly urged to follow the science, so let us follow the science in that review. She discussed water, and according to the review:

“Overall water use is important. Estimates indicate that the amount needed to operate a hydraulically fractured shale gas well for a decade may be equivalent to the amount needed to water a golf course for a month”.


That seems something with which we can probably cope. She then discussed the possible results leading to the pollution of aquifers. The review says:

“Concerns have been raised about the risk of fractures propagating from shale formations to reach overlying aquifers. The available evidence indicates that this risk is very low provided that shale gas extraction takes place at depths of many hundreds of metres or several kilometres.”


In the UK’s Bowland shale, it would be kilometres deep. The review continues:

“Geological mechanisms constrain the distances that fractures may propagate vertically. Even if communication with overlying aquifers were possible, suitable pressure conditions would still be necessary for contaminants to flow through fractures.”


When you have a kilometre or more of stone—impermeable rock—bearing down, you could not get a better seal.

Nevertheless, we do not have to worry about scientific analysis and theory, because we have practical experience. Over a million wells have been fracked in North America; not a single one has resulted in a building falling down from tremors or in a single person being poisoned by contaminated aquifers. So we are bound to conclude that lots of people have been spreading the sort of scaremongering that would make anti-vaxxers blush—even Andrew Bridgen would probably blush if he heard some of the stuff that has been put out by the friends of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, at their various camps around every conceivable attempt to get fracking going. We should rely on the science and the scientific reports and regulate the industry well, as we have done in the past.

Electricity: Decarbonisation

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that we will need a lot more electricity both for EVs and for the electrification of heat. I cannot give him an exact figure at this stage—it depends on a number of different factors, not least of which is the success of our demand reduction policies.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, another barrier to the delivery of net zero was the disappointing announcement on 14 December on the green taxonomy. Unlike the answer given by our noble friend Lady Penn on 3 November in this House, it suggested that the work might be delayed or even cancelled. Does my noble friend not agree that taxonomy of sustainable business services could help the financial services industry to identify appropriate activities to support decarbonisation of the power sector and move us to net zero?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that green taxonomy is an important component. She will also be aware that the work is being taken forward by the Treasury, with support from BEIS and Defra. I think it is fair to say that it has a mixed record in other parts of the world, but it is certainly something that we are looking at closely.

COP 27: Outcome

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Government have taken a number of measures—I point the noble Lord to the tax on single-use plastic bags—but clearly there is a lot more that we need to do. I know that colleagues in Defra are working on this.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I praise the Government on all their work so far on the climate issue. Could my noble friend tell the House whether they have plans to embed into the United Kingdom standards in the upcoming Financial Services and Markets Bill the recommendations of the UN high-level expert group on the net-zero pledges of non-state entities, such as pension funds, to ensure that our massive, long-term institutional investor money will support net zero and green growth?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am sorry to tell my noble friend that I am not responsible for the financial services Bill. I would be very happy to get Treasury colleagues to write to her.

Protection for Whistleblowing Bill [HL]

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Friday 2nd December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on introducing the Bill and I sincerely hope it might be third time lucky after her two previous attempts. Her Bill is an important contribution to public protection in many areas. It has an absolutely noble and correct objective, which is increasingly important as fraud, scams and malpractice, particularly in the financial arena, have expanded enormously. We are well behind other countries, which seem to value whistleblowers far more highly than we do. We need to champion their actions as protection from the inside against wrongdoing that may not be apparent until it is too late.

The Bill seeks, rightly, to rebalance the current system and redress the asymmetry of power and cost more in favour of the whistleblower. The burden of proof should indeed be more on the accused and it should absolutely be important to ensure that reported wrongdoing is taken seriously and in a way that protects those reporting it. The Bill’s establishment of the office of the whistleblower is very welcome. My experience during my City career showed me the damage suffered by those trying to report wrongdoing. It can definitely be a career-ending move.

Indeed, a good friend suffered stigma and ostracism after reporting financial irregularities. She had seen colleagues basically telling clients things that were not true or trying to sell them positions that they themselves had already decided to get out of and trying to front-run the price. My friend, however, was willing to come forward only because she had already decided that she was going to retire. She knew, and had seen it with others, that were she to come forward at that stage, she would not have worked in the City again. She certainly believed that. Compensation for losing a current job is therefore not really sufficient for the younger whistleblowers. If they can never work in their sector again, there will not be sufficient support for them to have the courage to come forward.

The PIDA 1998 was well intentioned, but it is clearly inadequate. It merely encourages rather than mandates whistleblower protection and the procedures required. So, its main impact is retrospective rather than supportive and pre-emptive, and the costs of employment tribunals are, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said, prohibitive. The present regulatory system in financial services does not work well enough to prevent wrongdoing. It does not, and perhaps cannot, pick up internal wrongdoing, and it has so often displayed expertise in bolting stable doors after the horses have long galloped away and trampled on unsuspecting members of the public who cross their path. That is why I believe the Bill is right to seek to impose a proactive duty on employers to take whistleblowing reports seriously and prevent the victimisation of whistleblowers.

I support the aims of this Bill, which mirrors that of my honourable friend Mary Robinson MP, chair of the whistleblowing APPG. I accept that there is criticism. There are concerns, for example, about abolishing the PIDA through Clause 26 before we have this new office well-established, but these can be dealt with in Committee. Part 1’s remit is extremely wide, and perhaps one could limit some of the catch-alls—for example, prescribed “other matters” as the Secretary of State might decide by regulations, or the “misuse” of authority. I think the itemised list is excellent. If noble Lords have problems with one or two, they could be merged. Part 4 on civil penalties is really welcome. Indeed, I might go further—why limit the maximum amount to £18 million? For a very large multinational, this could be perceived as just the cost of doing business.

Overall, I hope my noble friend the Minister will take the aims of the Bill seriously. I know that the Government have promised to come forward with a review of the existing system, but we do not have a timetable, nor indeed the remit of that review, so I would welcome any reassurance that they are willing to take this issue seriously now.

North Sea Gas

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, following on from the questions of my noble friends Lord Bridges and Lord Cormack, I ask my noble friend to relay back to his department the concerns that have been expressed about the UK’s potential non-attendance at the meeting on Friday, and perhaps report back to interested Peers whether it is possible for the UK to be represented in the middle of an energy crisis in a meeting that is so important?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

To be honest, this Question was the first I have heard of this meeting. I do not know the answer. I do not even know if we have been invited to it, but I will find out.

Employment Rights

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said, the best right that workers can have is the right to a secure and well-paid job, which is what we are providing. I have also outlined during previous debates that we have employment rights in this country far in excess of most of the EU standards and which were retained under the Brexit withdrawal Bills. We have an excellent record of workers’ rights, and we should be proud of it.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that one of the big crises facing the labour market at the moment is the withdrawal of many older workers from the workforce altogether? In the context of employment rights and the previous question, would the Government consider paid leave for carers of elderly loved ones or relatives who need to take some time off, just as mothers with young children need paid maternity leave? Would the Government consider facilitating the return of older workers to the labour force in that manner?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes an important point. It is vital, particularly if we are suffering shortages in some sectors, to get as many members of a productive workforce into work as possible. We will keep all these matters under review to see how we can ensure getting more carers back into work.

Energy: Prices and Supply

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point and I completely agree about the importance of nuclear and Sizewell C. Negotiations are continuing; I think it unlikely that there will be an announcement before the House rises.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, commendably, the Government are trying to shield households from these excessive rises in energy costs. However, will my noble friend consider carefully the excellent point made by our noble friend Lord Howell: that cutting fuel duties could indeed set up a virtuous circle? Given the extent of the rise in fuel costs, households surely need time to transition to this higher-cost environment. A tax cut, as long as it is passed on to bill payers, could assist in that transition.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

This has of course been a source of considerable debate in the current leadership contest. I am sure that the new Prime Minister and the new or existing Chancellor will want to consider these matters very carefully. As I said, we have already supported households to a massive extent, but given the inevitable rises that are coming down the line later in the year, I am sure the Chancellor will want to look at these matters again.