Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee
Tuesday 27th October 2026
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10:01
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I know it's not easy to do the work that you do. I'm going to start with a question on wildfires. I'm not sure if you also went to the government's wildfire summit on Friday. If you did, it'd be good if you could weave some of the answers through when responding. So the wildfires took place over the summer. Can you describe the scenes that you saw as a firefighter and and discover how that's impacted your work and what you would like to see the government implement? I understand that on Friday, the government discussed, I mean, the the summit discussed the wildfire action plan.
And I understand that's something that the fire service sector has been calling for. If that's the case, tell me what you'd like to see in it.
And I understand that's something that the fire service sector has been calling for. If that's the case, tell me what you'd like to see in it.
10:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Do you want me to do that? Thank you for the question. So perhaps I'll pick that one up initially. As I attended the major incident wildfire in Stourbridge in the West Midlands. And I think it's fair to say that the scenes that day will stay with me forever. I've got nearly 29 years service in the fire and rescue sector. And the things I saw that day were something that I've never seen before. The scene of devastation across such a wide area of a relatively urban part of the West Midlands was deeply upsetting. The firefighters were magnificent.
My firefighters went above and beyond what could be reasonably expected. The incident was physically demanding for them. Hottest day of the year. Very windy, but not just physically demanding. And you know, there were firefighters who had to be treated by paramedic colleagues for heat exhaustion, but also psychologically really taxing. At that incident, 20 residential properties were fully consumed and destroyed by fire. And that's something that my firefighters took really personally. We had members of staff crying at the scene because they felt they weren't doing the most they could, and of course, they were working in incredibly difficult conditions.
At one stage, almost every single resource in West Midlands Fire Service was deployed , not just to Stourbridge, but to the nine other significant fires that were going on across the West Midlands, including three other major incidents and the hundreds of other fires that were taking place, even those those smaller fires. And so the impact on us was, was huge. And the impact on my staff has been quite profound. And then just to speak to the government's commitment around wildfire action plan, I think the fire sector really supports that. We know that the Fire and Rescue Service are not going to be able to fix the wildfire challenge on our own.
This takes a whole of society approach. So that includes, of course, fire and rescue being adequately resourced and prepared to deal with wildfires, meaning we've got the right PPE for our fire fighters, the right vehicles, the right equipment, and indeed, of course, the right numbers of firefighters because that day showed not just in the West Midlands but across the whole of the country, a sector that was incredibly stretched due to the loss of firefighters over the last 15 to 20 years. But it isn't just the fire and rescue sector that can do the response part of wildfires.
We also need government support around bringing together the whole of the community, and that includes local authorities who can support with public space protection orders so that we, you know, we can enforce people behaving responsibly when we're at those times of significant wildfire risk. The use of national alerts to let people know what they should and shouldn't do. Landowners, the Countryside Alliance, National Farmers Union thinking about responsible land management, particularly in the West Midlands, where there is urban rural interface, where this isn't just burning in farmers fields or peatland or moorland, but it's impacting on residential properties, which is something that many services are now starting to face as we go forward.
And then, of course, there's the civic duty of the public behaving responsibly. The wildfire in Stourbridge was deemed to be caused accidentally, but over the course of the summer we had several wildfires that were caused either by people behaving a bit more responsibly, the use of disposable barbecues or careless disposal of smoking materials, or indeed deliberately. And one of the significant incidents that happened on the 13th in Highter's Heath in south Birmingham that resulted in the total loss of six houses, was deemed to have been started deliberately. And so there's a whole society approach, not just around regulation, but the, you know, society having that civic duty to come together as climate change makes the role of the Forest Service more complex.
My firefighters went above and beyond what could be reasonably expected. The incident was physically demanding for them. Hottest day of the year. Very windy, but not just physically demanding. And you know, there were firefighters who had to be treated by paramedic colleagues for heat exhaustion, but also psychologically really taxing. At that incident, 20 residential properties were fully consumed and destroyed by fire. And that's something that my firefighters took really personally. We had members of staff crying at the scene because they felt they weren't doing the most they could, and of course, they were working in incredibly difficult conditions.
At one stage, almost every single resource in West Midlands Fire Service was deployed , not just to Stourbridge, but to the nine other significant fires that were going on across the West Midlands, including three other major incidents and the hundreds of other fires that were taking place, even those those smaller fires. And so the impact on us was, was huge. And the impact on my staff has been quite profound. And then just to speak to the government's commitment around wildfire action plan, I think the fire sector really supports that. We know that the Fire and Rescue Service are not going to be able to fix the wildfire challenge on our own.
This takes a whole of society approach. So that includes, of course, fire and rescue being adequately resourced and prepared to deal with wildfires, meaning we've got the right PPE for our fire fighters, the right vehicles, the right equipment, and indeed, of course, the right numbers of firefighters because that day showed not just in the West Midlands but across the whole of the country, a sector that was incredibly stretched due to the loss of firefighters over the last 15 to 20 years. But it isn't just the fire and rescue sector that can do the response part of wildfires.
We also need government support around bringing together the whole of the community, and that includes local authorities who can support with public space protection orders so that we, you know, we can enforce people behaving responsibly when we're at those times of significant wildfire risk. The use of national alerts to let people know what they should and shouldn't do. Landowners, the Countryside Alliance, National Farmers Union thinking about responsible land management, particularly in the West Midlands, where there is urban rural interface, where this isn't just burning in farmers fields or peatland or moorland, but it's impacting on residential properties, which is something that many services are now starting to face as we go forward.
And then, of course, there's the civic duty of the public behaving responsibly. The wildfire in Stourbridge was deemed to be caused accidentally, but over the course of the summer we had several wildfires that were caused either by people behaving a bit more responsibly, the use of disposable barbecues or careless disposal of smoking materials, or indeed deliberately. And one of the significant incidents that happened on the 13th in Highter's Heath in south Birmingham that resulted in the total loss of six houses, was deemed to have been started deliberately. And so there's a whole society approach, not just around regulation, but the, you know, society having that civic duty to come together as climate change makes the role of the Forest Service more complex.
10:11
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That's really helpful, particularly your perspective on the whole society approach. You've mentioned about the national emergency alerts. As we've seen for the first time last year, I believe it was August. The national emergency alerts were issued in relation to the wildfires. There was a bit of criticism, as you know, in terms of whether it met the threshold in terms of why the alert was issued, particularly with wildfire. Do you know if you've done any particular lessons, learnt to see whether this was effective and this is something that should be embedded in the system going forward?
10:12
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I think the sector's belief is that that message was effective. In fact, we would have advocated for it to have happened earlier. Of course, that day there were wildfires going on across the whole of the UK and major incidents declared in many, many fire and rescue services. And so that message telling people what they should and shouldn't do was one of the crucial bits of public messaging that enables us then to get the hook in, to then speak to the public about how we would like them to behave at a time of extreme risk of wildfire.
10:13
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you, and thank you very much for that. So just building on what you've mentioned so far, I'm interested to hear, given the lessons from the wildfires, given that climate change means we might expect more of those, how might your plans and your tactics change? And are there need for sort of different sort of innovative methods? So I'm thinking about the commitments around military air support, different fire brigades. And we're testing out different new bits of kit. How might we expect your approach to change and what support might you need from government to help you do that?
10:14
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
If I might share, just come in on that point because funnily enough, back in 2022, the London Fire Brigade experienced significant challenges with wildfires. As colleagues on the panel will will remember, you know, particularly the 19th of July in 2022 will live long in the memory, you know, 40, 41 degree heat that firefighters were having to operate in. Now, we've had to completely overhaul our operational response to deal with these in a bizarre way. The fact that the London Fire Commissioner is having a conversation about wildfire probably tells you where where we where we now are, you know, six, seven, six, seven years ago, we just weren't having that conversation.
We'd had some significant grass fires. We'd had some significant challenges previously, but nothing to what we saw back in 2022. So actually, the US as an organization, specifically the LFB, had to learn a number of lessons to make sure that we were as prepared as we possibly can be. So over the course of the last 3 to 4 years, we've overhauled our training provision. We've brought in new kit and equipment, we've got different vehicles. Our incident commanders deal with wildfire in a different way because, as you'll appreciate, we've been set up predominantly as an urban fire and rescue service.
We were still dealing with the aftermath from the Grenfell Tower inquiry and the subsequent recommendations that the LFB was having to deliver against. So to then find ourselves dealing with the incidents that we faced back in 2022 has meant we've had to re posture ourselves as an organisation. And now as we approach the summer period, there's now a long run up. Simon's point is, right, this is a whole societal approach. You know, one of the things that we now do is we write to all of the local borough chief executives to actually talk about how do we manage open green spaces, how do we encourage people to behave in a different way when we get into the summer?
That's why actually the emergency alert is just something. I think as a country, we've just got to get into that habit. In Southern Europe, for example, that's a very common occurrence. These alerts will be sent out, and then it just changes the way that people are behaving and thinking about wildfire in a different way. But it's required us. If I talk parochially from the Lfb's perspective, we have actually completely overhauled our operational posture for the summer period. So we've brought in significant numbers of firefighters over the summer period because we were anticipating significant heat on the hottest day of the year, which I think was the 13th of August.
We got up to 38, 39°C. And so we we use a system called Recall to Duty. So we've got 2500 firefighters who are signed up to a voluntary recall to duty. So when we anticipate particular challenges around our operational capability, we're able to bring additional resourcing. So it meant on that day we crewed every single pumping appliance. We crewed every single specialist vehicle to try and maintain the position that we had in London, because the call figures, just to chair, if I may, just to go through it in July, we're 40% up on the previous three year average.
In August. We're 49% up on the previous three year average. We've done 20% more wildfires in 2026 than we did in 2022, which is the biggest challenge to us as an organisation. So we're just having to think very, very differently about how we posture ourselves as an organisation to deal with what is now, to use that hideous phrase, the new normal we're thinking about next summer. Now, you know, I know we will need additional PPE, we will need additional kit and equipment. I very much welcome the government's positioning on wildfire at the moment, particularly the summit, and.
But we would need to see the resource flow in to fire and rescue services right across the country in order to deal with what is now a significant challenge. So this is something that's been rising for some time. We experienced it, particularly in 2022, where we lost over 40 houses in Wennington and Dagenham in particular, with the way that the fire had spread in a way that we just simply hadn't anticipated before. This year, we've been able to hold it in London and support the national endeavour. So we've sent 300 LFB firefighters to major incidents in England and the south of Wales.
Nearly 60 vehicles have been deployed to support the national resilience effort, and that's really what this is going to take. This is a this is a UK issue for us to contend with. The national resilience of UK Fire and Rescue Service, who have been severely tested over over the summer period. And we've just now got to think very seriously about how we make sure every fire and rescue service has the resources it needs to deal with these these issues, which we know we're going to face for the foreseeable future.
We'd had some significant grass fires. We'd had some significant challenges previously, but nothing to what we saw back in 2022. So actually, the US as an organization, specifically the LFB, had to learn a number of lessons to make sure that we were as prepared as we possibly can be. So over the course of the last 3 to 4 years, we've overhauled our training provision. We've brought in new kit and equipment, we've got different vehicles. Our incident commanders deal with wildfire in a different way because, as you'll appreciate, we've been set up predominantly as an urban fire and rescue service.
We were still dealing with the aftermath from the Grenfell Tower inquiry and the subsequent recommendations that the LFB was having to deliver against. So to then find ourselves dealing with the incidents that we faced back in 2022 has meant we've had to re posture ourselves as an organisation. And now as we approach the summer period, there's now a long run up. Simon's point is, right, this is a whole societal approach. You know, one of the things that we now do is we write to all of the local borough chief executives to actually talk about how do we manage open green spaces, how do we encourage people to behave in a different way when we get into the summer?
That's why actually the emergency alert is just something. I think as a country, we've just got to get into that habit. In Southern Europe, for example, that's a very common occurrence. These alerts will be sent out, and then it just changes the way that people are behaving and thinking about wildfire in a different way. But it's required us. If I talk parochially from the Lfb's perspective, we have actually completely overhauled our operational posture for the summer period. So we've brought in significant numbers of firefighters over the summer period because we were anticipating significant heat on the hottest day of the year, which I think was the 13th of August.
We got up to 38, 39°C. And so we we use a system called Recall to Duty. So we've got 2500 firefighters who are signed up to a voluntary recall to duty. So when we anticipate particular challenges around our operational capability, we're able to bring additional resourcing. So it meant on that day we crewed every single pumping appliance. We crewed every single specialist vehicle to try and maintain the position that we had in London, because the call figures, just to chair, if I may, just to go through it in July, we're 40% up on the previous three year average.
In August. We're 49% up on the previous three year average. We've done 20% more wildfires in 2026 than we did in 2022, which is the biggest challenge to us as an organisation. So we're just having to think very, very differently about how we posture ourselves as an organisation to deal with what is now, to use that hideous phrase, the new normal we're thinking about next summer. Now, you know, I know we will need additional PPE, we will need additional kit and equipment. I very much welcome the government's positioning on wildfire at the moment, particularly the summit, and.
But we would need to see the resource flow in to fire and rescue services right across the country in order to deal with what is now a significant challenge. So this is something that's been rising for some time. We experienced it, particularly in 2022, where we lost over 40 houses in Wennington and Dagenham in particular, with the way that the fire had spread in a way that we just simply hadn't anticipated before. This year, we've been able to hold it in London and support the national endeavour. So we've sent 300 LFB firefighters to major incidents in England and the south of Wales.
Nearly 60 vehicles have been deployed to support the national resilience effort, and that's really what this is going to take. This is a this is a UK issue for us to contend with. The national resilience of UK Fire and Rescue Service, who have been severely tested over over the summer period. And we've just now got to think very seriously about how we make sure every fire and rescue service has the resources it needs to deal with these these issues, which we know we're going to face for the foreseeable future.
10:23
10:23
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Can I firstly start by thanking you all for what you and your teams do to keep our communities safe. Mr. Smith, you spoke about the national alert, some of the feedback we had from domestic abuse charities was the concern that victims of domestic abuse may have secondary phones. The feedback I would offer is that, can we roll the pitch if we're going to send out a national alert, just to make sure those people know to hide their phones and just want to make sure that was on the record.
10:24
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I just wanted to follow up on is both what Jonathan and Simon said, particularly about the increase in resources and the different vehicles and PPE. Is there new technology that you've identified that you think should be factored in? Part of what the government is looking at that will help mitigate, particularly stuff like wildfires and other things that you're responding to.
10:24
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Yeah. Chair, shall I pick that one up for you? So again, an alternative option is a predominantly on call fire service where most people in Suffolk Fire and Rescue Service have day jobs, and then they respond by pages to the emergencies as and when they happen. Hugely dedicated people giving up their time to respond to emergencies every day of the week and evenings and under normal circumstances, that works quite well. But of course, on the Dunwich Fire during during the summer that we experienced in Suffolk, the turnaround of staff was hugely challenging and I think technology can help to a point there.
As soon as we brought air assets into the Dunwich Fire at that that that quenched the large amount of fire quite quickly. Of course, we had to take that at a risk of cost, because Suffolk Fire and Rescue Service already runs a budget pressure this year, meaning that any other resources that we bring in for spate conditions, wildfires, floodings, coastal inundations comes at an extra cost that we then need to find through our fire authority, which of course is challenging. So in terms of the technology that is available, it's encouraging to hear that the RAF may well be providing us with firefighting aerial capability.
And I think the challenge there is that that may then come at a cost to local authorities to be able to fund that, which will be impossible, because we've already run out of pressure. And I think drone capabilities and technology, such as robotics also can play its part in wildfires and other emergencies. But the challenge there is that certainly local authorities and fire authorities don't have the capital investment to be able to bring in this technology, and we certainly don't have the capital and revenue budget to be able to keep up with emerging technology that could be so useful to us, and that could prevent fatalities in the public, but also firefighter fatalities.
And I think the the budget's also comes into effect that we have seen cutbacks over recent years and certainly over the decades where firefighter numbers have been reduced. And that provides its challenges. Where Dunwich is an example, where we've got on call firefighters, you can only rotate them around a shift so many times before you're putting their pager down to bring them back to another fire or to the Dunwich Fire only a few hours after they've just left. And so therefore, national resilience and the capability there, we think, should be looked at for investment, to make sure that when you do press the button, it's not just London that are supporting, it's all the other fire service, the other 14 that came to assist Dunwich.
And again, just as Dunwich finished, we then put Suffolk firefighters across the country to Hampshire and to Wales to help them when we're already stretched, because we knew they needed that help. So I think there is technology out there. I think it needs to be worked through carefully, and support through capital and revenue investment will help us to embrace that, take it on board and move it forward at pace.
As soon as we brought air assets into the Dunwich Fire at that that that quenched the large amount of fire quite quickly. Of course, we had to take that at a risk of cost, because Suffolk Fire and Rescue Service already runs a budget pressure this year, meaning that any other resources that we bring in for spate conditions, wildfires, floodings, coastal inundations comes at an extra cost that we then need to find through our fire authority, which of course is challenging. So in terms of the technology that is available, it's encouraging to hear that the RAF may well be providing us with firefighting aerial capability.
And I think the challenge there is that that may then come at a cost to local authorities to be able to fund that, which will be impossible, because we've already run out of pressure. And I think drone capabilities and technology, such as robotics also can play its part in wildfires and other emergencies. But the challenge there is that certainly local authorities and fire authorities don't have the capital investment to be able to bring in this technology, and we certainly don't have the capital and revenue budget to be able to keep up with emerging technology that could be so useful to us, and that could prevent fatalities in the public, but also firefighter fatalities.
And I think the the budget's also comes into effect that we have seen cutbacks over recent years and certainly over the decades where firefighter numbers have been reduced. And that provides its challenges. Where Dunwich is an example, where we've got on call firefighters, you can only rotate them around a shift so many times before you're putting their pager down to bring them back to another fire or to the Dunwich Fire only a few hours after they've just left. And so therefore, national resilience and the capability there, we think, should be looked at for investment, to make sure that when you do press the button, it's not just London that are supporting, it's all the other fire service, the other 14 that came to assist Dunwich.
And again, just as Dunwich finished, we then put Suffolk firefighters across the country to Hampshire and to Wales to help them when we're already stretched, because we knew they needed that help. So I think there is technology out there. I think it needs to be worked through carefully, and support through capital and revenue investment will help us to embrace that, take it on board and move it forward at pace.
10:30
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yeah, I just wanted to come in and something that Jonathan, Mr. Smith mentioned about being prepared for next summer and obviously extreme weather, we're seeing a lot, a lot. It's a lot more frequent now and it's going to probably impact us in the winter as well, and especially with flooding. And I understand that that is an a statutory duty for for the fire brigade. But just wanting to understand how you're how you're prepared for other extreme weather incidences and especially flooding with it's.
10:31
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It's a key question for us because yes, we're now anticipating, you know, warmer, wetter winters as well as longer, drier summers. So some of the kit and equipment actually that we've purchased to deal with wildfires. So we've got these terrain support vehicles actually during the summer, it gives us a 4x4 capability to deal with wildfires. But actually in the winter, it gives us an enhanced flooding capability. And actually, we're looking now at our next generation of pumping appliances that are going to need to be able to be as multi multifaceted as possible, because, yes, we're going to have to make sure that we're postured correctly in the summer period to deal with wildfires.
But what we're now seeing in the autumn and winter, well, there was actually there was a week in April, which I think just sums up where we are now at the moment. We're on the Monday night, we had flash flooding in south west London, and we had what was referred to as spate conditions. So we had significant numbers of calls coming into the control room, had to then think about how we were deploying our resources. At the end of that week. We then got temperatures of 30, 32 degrees all in the same period. So I think in a in a microcosm that gives you an understanding of some of the challenges that all fire and rescue services.
Well, this is a global issue, clearly not just for the UK, but it's something we're having to think about very carefully in our longer term strategic planning, that when we are buying kit and equipment and the PPE challenge. So what we're looking at next year is lightweight PPE that can be used in a wildfire scenario, but it can also be used in a whole range of other rescue scenarios as well. So it's multi-purpose because that's just the nature of modern firefighting. Now, you know, last year we went to 44 different incident types as a as a fire and rescue service.
You know, the role continues to expand the risks and challenges that fire and rescue services are dealing with continues to expand. And that's something we have to think about very, very carefully about how we plan for the future.
But what we're now seeing in the autumn and winter, well, there was actually there was a week in April, which I think just sums up where we are now at the moment. We're on the Monday night, we had flash flooding in south west London, and we had what was referred to as spate conditions. So we had significant numbers of calls coming into the control room, had to then think about how we were deploying our resources. At the end of that week. We then got temperatures of 30, 32 degrees all in the same period. So I think in a in a microcosm that gives you an understanding of some of the challenges that all fire and rescue services.
Well, this is a global issue, clearly not just for the UK, but it's something we're having to think about very carefully in our longer term strategic planning, that when we are buying kit and equipment and the PPE challenge. So what we're looking at next year is lightweight PPE that can be used in a wildfire scenario, but it can also be used in a whole range of other rescue scenarios as well. So it's multi-purpose because that's just the nature of modern firefighting. Now, you know, last year we went to 44 different incident types as a as a fire and rescue service.
You know, the role continues to expand the risks and challenges that fire and rescue services are dealing with continues to expand. And that's something we have to think about very, very carefully about how we plan for the future.
10:34
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
If I'm sorry if I might come in. So we've. In Cornwall, we had the first two named storms that that kind of hit us this week. And for areas like Cornwall, reality really matters. We've got dispersed communities, long travel distances, critical infrastructure, vulnerabilities amongst our communities, and they become isolated really quickly. And I think what we've kind of touched on wildfires and then kind of gone more broadly into into storms and flooding. I think what we have to look at is the risks that we're facing as a fire and rescue service. They're changing significantly, quickly.
And the question for all of us really is whether the resilience arrangements that we have in place are changing quickly enough to keep up with that pace of change. If we're serious about really committing to building resilient communities and that, you know, that touches on wildfires, isn't it touches on flooding, it touches on storms. It's the whole piece. Then from my perspective, fire and rescue services really need to be seen as part of the nation's resilience arrangements, really kind of critical to that infrastructure and not just simply about that emergency response piece. If we look at it, kind of that macro level we support nationally, we're we're kind of sat there really as a critical part of the UK's resilience architecture.
We protect not only, you know, it's not just the fire piece, it's the it's the critical national infrastructure. It's the support for energy resilience, food security. More broadly, we respond to the impacts of extreme weather. As we've just kind of pointed out, if we then look at kind of that meso level, we bring together partners through our local resilience arrangements. We we connect places, we connect communities, we strengthen resilience. And we're there really often to support community cohesion and that kind of micro level. We work directly with individuals, the most vulnerable people and families to kind of safeguard and build capacity.
And the value is from the fire and rescue service perspective, is that we operate all three of those levels. And what I would say is we do that simultaneously. We're trusted, we're respected, and we are embedded nationally, but also embedded absolutely within our communities. We're you know, I've got 31 fire stations. They are absolutely at the heart of our communities. My firefighters are predominantly on call. You know, they are the people. They are the communities. But what we can't do is that resilience can't rely on goodwill alone. It requires sustained and sustainable investment. And I think from my perspective, the Fire and Rescue Service is absolutely critical to the nation's resilience.
And the question for all of us really is whether the resilience arrangements that we have in place are changing quickly enough to keep up with that pace of change. If we're serious about really committing to building resilient communities and that, you know, that touches on wildfires, isn't it touches on flooding, it touches on storms. It's the whole piece. Then from my perspective, fire and rescue services really need to be seen as part of the nation's resilience arrangements, really kind of critical to that infrastructure and not just simply about that emergency response piece. If we look at it, kind of that macro level we support nationally, we're we're kind of sat there really as a critical part of the UK's resilience architecture.
We protect not only, you know, it's not just the fire piece, it's the it's the critical national infrastructure. It's the support for energy resilience, food security. More broadly, we respond to the impacts of extreme weather. As we've just kind of pointed out, if we then look at kind of that meso level, we bring together partners through our local resilience arrangements. We we connect places, we connect communities, we strengthen resilience. And we're there really often to support community cohesion and that kind of micro level. We work directly with individuals, the most vulnerable people and families to kind of safeguard and build capacity.
And the value is from the fire and rescue service perspective, is that we operate all three of those levels. And what I would say is we do that simultaneously. We're trusted, we're respected, and we are embedded nationally, but also embedded absolutely within our communities. We're you know, I've got 31 fire stations. They are absolutely at the heart of our communities. My firefighters are predominantly on call. You know, they are the people. They are the communities. But what we can't do is that resilience can't rely on goodwill alone. It requires sustained and sustainable investment. And I think from my perspective, the Fire and Rescue Service is absolutely critical to the nation's resilience.
10:40
10:41
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
So if I may if I may come in there. So e-bikes and e-scooters, someone described it to me perfectly the other day when they said, that's become the new chip and fire lithium, lithium ion batteries more broadly. Actually, the truth be told, not just confined to e-bikes and e-scooters. And it's a challenge because we want to support green technology. We want to see that continue to evolve. But there have been very, very significant risks with e-bikes and e-scooters, particularly on the black market, and the way that regulation really has got a key role to play here.
So we are we are really keen to see that the secondary legislation around the Product Regulation and Metrology Act actually now comes forward, because I think there is a key role, particularly when it comes to the regulation of the online marketplace, that we really do need to see that come through, because at the moment there's too much counterfeit products on the market. There's still there's still a lot of education that's required to make sure that people understand the dangers of self conversion kits with bikes actually charging e-bikes and e-scooters properly. We've run a significant campaign called Charge Safe, which has been directly focused on the issue around e-bike and e-scooter, and particularly safe charging if in HMOs and other shared accommodation where we've got e-bikes and e-scooters actually being stored in escape routes, making sure that we point that out, working with housing providers.
So it is definitely something we have to keep coming around to. You know, back in 2020, the London Fire Brigade did 20 e-bike e-scooter fires. In 2025, we did 210. So it's been it's been going it's been going on an upward trajectory now actually this year. And we think it may well be down to some of the education that we've been doing. It's started to come down slightly, but it's at this moment in time is something we have to be relentless about. But my big ask really, is that we push forward with the secondary legislation and see that come online.
Because I was I was having a conversation with the commissioner of the Singaporean Civil Defence Force, actually at the World Fire Congress, which was held in London about three weeks ago. And I was asking him, how does Singapore actually deal with e-bikes and e-scooters? And it's through very, very strict regulation that actually there's only certain manufacturers that people can purchase e-bikes and e-scooters from. It's very, very clear there's proper kite marking. There's real strict safety standards that sit around it. So I think there's a huge role in education, but there's also a huge role in regulation as far as we're concerned.
But it's a broader question around lithium ion batteries, not just e-bikes, e-scooters, because one of the other trends we've seen over the summer periods is recycling sites go up in fire, where people are not discarding lithium ion batteries properly. So there's a whole range of challenges that come with the new and emerging technology. But of course, we want to see that new and emerging technology come through. Because going back to our previous conversation around the impact of climate change, we know that that's the route forward, but there's just a whole range of measures we would want to see, not least in the regulatory space, to see that secondary legislation come forward, which I think will then make a big difference.
So we are we are really keen to see that the secondary legislation around the Product Regulation and Metrology Act actually now comes forward, because I think there is a key role, particularly when it comes to the regulation of the online marketplace, that we really do need to see that come through, because at the moment there's too much counterfeit products on the market. There's still there's still a lot of education that's required to make sure that people understand the dangers of self conversion kits with bikes actually charging e-bikes and e-scooters properly. We've run a significant campaign called Charge Safe, which has been directly focused on the issue around e-bike and e-scooter, and particularly safe charging if in HMOs and other shared accommodation where we've got e-bikes and e-scooters actually being stored in escape routes, making sure that we point that out, working with housing providers.
So it is definitely something we have to keep coming around to. You know, back in 2020, the London Fire Brigade did 20 e-bike e-scooter fires. In 2025, we did 210. So it's been it's been going it's been going on an upward trajectory now actually this year. And we think it may well be down to some of the education that we've been doing. It's started to come down slightly, but it's at this moment in time is something we have to be relentless about. But my big ask really, is that we push forward with the secondary legislation and see that come online.
Because I was I was having a conversation with the commissioner of the Singaporean Civil Defence Force, actually at the World Fire Congress, which was held in London about three weeks ago. And I was asking him, how does Singapore actually deal with e-bikes and e-scooters? And it's through very, very strict regulation that actually there's only certain manufacturers that people can purchase e-bikes and e-scooters from. It's very, very clear there's proper kite marking. There's real strict safety standards that sit around it. So I think there's a huge role in education, but there's also a huge role in regulation as far as we're concerned.
But it's a broader question around lithium ion batteries, not just e-bikes, e-scooters, because one of the other trends we've seen over the summer periods is recycling sites go up in fire, where people are not discarding lithium ion batteries properly. So there's a whole range of challenges that come with the new and emerging technology. But of course, we want to see that new and emerging technology come through. Because going back to our previous conversation around the impact of climate change, we know that that's the route forward, but there's just a whole range of measures we would want to see, not least in the regulatory space, to see that secondary legislation come forward, which I think will then make a big difference.
10:47
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
I might add a bit of evidence on that is that's okay. And I think Jonathan's explained that exceptionally well about the increase of e-bikes and the challenges that they face, and the fatalities, sadly, that they cause. And counterfeit was a word that was mentioned by Jonathan there. And I think that's why it needs to be part of a whole system approach to dealing with e-bikes and lithium ion batteries that are not legitimate batteries manufactured in the correct way. And what the fire service has done well for a long time is work with partners across the system to try and deal with faulty washing machines, dishwashers, and a whole load of other things.
And that's why I think close partnership, working with trading standards across the board to make sure that we're all working on this together, to make sure that whoever has the legitimate powers to be able to deal with these and to make sure that the resources are there at the import area, like Felixstowe Port, are taken seriously, and that we're able to work together and that we've got the right resources in there to prevent them entering the country in the first place.
And that's why I think close partnership, working with trading standards across the board to make sure that we're all working on this together, to make sure that whoever has the legitimate powers to be able to deal with these and to make sure that the resources are there at the import area, like Felixstowe Port, are taken seriously, and that we're able to work together and that we've got the right resources in there to prevent them entering the country in the first place.
10:48
10:49
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think when you look at when you look at the role that regulation can provide and actually giving people the. Because a lot of this is to do with education and actually giving people very simple, straightforward instructions and being able to recognise straight away whether or not something meets a certain safety standard is definitely something I would support. And having listened to international experiences, that does seem to be the way that they've really seen a significant reduction. In the Singaporean example that I gave in the numbers of e-bike and e-scooter fires that they were dealing with.
So I would certainly welcome that.
So I would certainly welcome that.
10:50
10:50
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. Like John, West Midlands Fire Service responds to numerous incidents. We tragically had a fatal fire in November 2024, where a young couple and their dogs died as a result of an e-bike being charged in the hallway of their family home. Now we've launched a really big national campaign actually around called fast, Fierce and Fatal, which explicitly addresses the challenges around lithium ion battery fires. And as John says, they they're a problem for us throughout this system because they're a problem when they cause fires in people's homes. But at the end of their lives, when they end up in recycling plants, they're a huge issue as well, because when they catch fire, we can be on site for many, many days.
And so that's something that the entire UK Fire and Rescue Service is, is facing a pressure. And it's we've talked about the sort of the changing landscape of climate change. And of course, this is kind of one of those weird ones where it's an impact of climate change. That's not really weather related, but, you know, new technology like that, that's something that the fire service is having to pick up alongside lots of other things that we deal with. Now that 30 years ago, the fire service didn't really deal with cyber threat as an example. Now my service spends hundreds of thousands of pounds protecting our systems from attack so that our systems are able to take the 999 calls and we can mobilise fire engines.
And that was something we never used to spend money on. And now we do, and we don't get funded to do that. So alongside the reducing budgets that we've had as a result over since 2011, we're also dealing with new threats, whether that's lithium ion battery fires, cyber way more complex built environment. Now, the proliferation of houses and multiple application, particularly in more urban areas. Those are all emerging risks for fire and rescue service. And we're dealing with those with less money in the first place.
And so that's something that the entire UK Fire and Rescue Service is, is facing a pressure. And it's we've talked about the sort of the changing landscape of climate change. And of course, this is kind of one of those weird ones where it's an impact of climate change. That's not really weather related, but, you know, new technology like that, that's something that the fire service is having to pick up alongside lots of other things that we deal with. Now that 30 years ago, the fire service didn't really deal with cyber threat as an example. Now my service spends hundreds of thousands of pounds protecting our systems from attack so that our systems are able to take the 999 calls and we can mobilise fire engines.
And that was something we never used to spend money on. And now we do, and we don't get funded to do that. So alongside the reducing budgets that we've had as a result over since 2011, we're also dealing with new threats, whether that's lithium ion battery fires, cyber way more complex built environment. Now, the proliferation of houses and multiple application, particularly in more urban areas. Those are all emerging risks for fire and rescue service. And we're dealing with those with less money in the first place.
10:53
10:54
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I mean, just in terms of because we operate to risk rather than demand as an emergency service. So when you look at the percentages, even in some of London's busiest stations, you're looking at around seven 8% in terms of actual emergency response. But then when you start talking about the role that firefighters have got around prevention and protection in particular, which again, in a in a heavily urban environment like London, a very complicated built environment, now spending nearly 20% of their time on prevention work, on protection , work and train. The big one is around operational training, which is always the bit that gets missed.
Is that the only way fire and rescue services can keep pace with this changing nature of risk, as Kath was alluding to, is through much more regular training, because one of the questions we were debating the other day is in 2 or 3 years time, we'll be sending firefighters to risks that we don't yet know about, and we're going to have to be as agile as an organisation can possibly be to make sure that we can re posture, as we have done in LFB for for wildfire, for any particular challenge that comes over the horizon.
But the big the big thing for us as an organisation is when you need the fire service, you need it and you need it in numbers, as we demonstrated over the summer period. And what I'm really hoping, and one of the things I think came out of the wildfire summit that was held last week was that we've almost got to have the ability to flex as a sector when the demand demands it. So in the summer period, have the option to draw down on national funding, to bring in additional firefighters to deal with peak demand, and then have an opportunity to do something differently when that demand isn't there, i.e., more prevention work, more protection work, more work in other areas, more time available for training.
So it's one of these things where we're postured for risk, as we should be. When you need the fire service, you need it there in numbers and you need them well trained and fit and able to deal with what's in front of them. But then at the same time, the role of the fire service continues to evolve. So we've got to have that agility in our training provision to make sure we can keep pace with it.
Is that the only way fire and rescue services can keep pace with this changing nature of risk, as Kath was alluding to, is through much more regular training, because one of the questions we were debating the other day is in 2 or 3 years time, we'll be sending firefighters to risks that we don't yet know about, and we're going to have to be as agile as an organisation can possibly be to make sure that we can re posture, as we have done in LFB for for wildfire, for any particular challenge that comes over the horizon.
But the big the big thing for us as an organisation is when you need the fire service, you need it and you need it in numbers, as we demonstrated over the summer period. And what I'm really hoping, and one of the things I think came out of the wildfire summit that was held last week was that we've almost got to have the ability to flex as a sector when the demand demands it. So in the summer period, have the option to draw down on national funding, to bring in additional firefighters to deal with peak demand, and then have an opportunity to do something differently when that demand isn't there, i.e., more prevention work, more protection work, more work in other areas, more time available for training.
So it's one of these things where we're postured for risk, as we should be. When you need the fire service, you need it there in numbers and you need them well trained and fit and able to deal with what's in front of them. But then at the same time, the role of the fire service continues to evolve. So we've got to have that agility in our training provision to make sure we can keep pace with it.
10:57
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
So the majority, over 70% of my service is on call. So that means that, you know, they they do around about 120 hours on call a week that they're available. There's not a lot of time left in a week. And, and they will be called when they're needed. So in that context, you know, 100% of their time is dedicated to emergency response because we will call them when we need them. What I would also kind of add to add to that point is the ability to kind of flex. We didn't go, we didn't declare a major incident during the wildfire.
We were very, very close. But what I did have are some of my on call firefighters working, you know, in excess of 12, 18, 20 hours. And less than six hours later, they were back again. And, you know, again, that that's great, you know, but is it resilient? Is it appropriate for us to be asking our people to be working in those challenging conditions? You know, throughout the storms? Again, I had over 250 firefighters out at the weekend. That's kind of half my staff dealing with the storms. So again, it is that resilience piece. But on Jonathan's point, the ability to kind of flex is important.
Again, at the wildfire Congress, Sweden talked about, again, their kind of resilience model. And what they've got are people that kind of almost commit to to community service. They've got different routes for how their young people are kind of trained and educated. Some do go into the public service life, but those that don't, again, when the nation needs them or the communities need them, they have the ability to call on them because they're already kind of trained in certain roles.
We were very, very close. But what I did have are some of my on call firefighters working, you know, in excess of 12, 18, 20 hours. And less than six hours later, they were back again. And, you know, again, that that's great, you know, but is it resilient? Is it appropriate for us to be asking our people to be working in those challenging conditions? You know, throughout the storms? Again, I had over 250 firefighters out at the weekend. That's kind of half my staff dealing with the storms. So again, it is that resilience piece. But on Jonathan's point, the ability to kind of flex is important.
Again, at the wildfire Congress, Sweden talked about, again, their kind of resilience model. And what they've got are people that kind of almost commit to to community service. They've got different routes for how their young people are kind of trained and educated. Some do go into the public service life, but those that don't, again, when the nation needs them or the communities need them, they have the ability to call on them because they're already kind of trained in certain roles.
11:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I was going to reinforce John's point really around the fire service being a three legged stool. So you have response, which is the fire engines on blue lights that people classically think the fire service is about. But equally important is the prevention work that we do often with the most vulnerable communities to stop. You know, the best fire that ever happens is one that we've stopped because we've done the prevention work in the first place. And then our protection colleagues who use the legislation to ensure building safety. And it is a three legged stool. And if you take any one of those away, the fire service will fall over.
And of course, the demands on us now are so much greater that sometimes we are having to make difficult decisions about resourcing. So John and Kath have talked about both seasonal demand and temporal demand. We know that in West Midlands we attend 50% more incidents. There's more risk in August than there is in February. We attend 70% of our incidents between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m., and that's when almost all of our community work happens as well. But by and large, many fire and rescue services have quite a static model of their distribution of firefighters.
And without investment in the fire service, all of us as chief officers are having to make difficult decisions around where we put our firefighters and assets. So what I would like to be able to do is have more firefighters available in the summer, as well as maintain the numbers in the winter. But at the moment, I might have to make difficult decisions about moving my workforce around based on the fact that our funding hasn't increased in line with CPI. One stat that I'd written down here is that since 2011, if our revenue budget had gone up with inflation, I would have £36 million more to run to run West Midlands Fire Service.
My budget is £150 million. That is a substantial loss in real terms, spending power that we've had to absorb in in the West Midlands. Thank you.
And of course, the demands on us now are so much greater that sometimes we are having to make difficult decisions about resourcing. So John and Kath have talked about both seasonal demand and temporal demand. We know that in West Midlands we attend 50% more incidents. There's more risk in August than there is in February. We attend 70% of our incidents between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m., and that's when almost all of our community work happens as well. But by and large, many fire and rescue services have quite a static model of their distribution of firefighters.
And without investment in the fire service, all of us as chief officers are having to make difficult decisions around where we put our firefighters and assets. So what I would like to be able to do is have more firefighters available in the summer, as well as maintain the numbers in the winter. But at the moment, I might have to make difficult decisions about moving my workforce around based on the fact that our funding hasn't increased in line with CPI. One stat that I'd written down here is that since 2011, if our revenue budget had gone up with inflation, I would have £36 million more to run to run West Midlands Fire Service.
My budget is £150 million. That is a substantial loss in real terms, spending power that we've had to absorb in in the West Midlands. Thank you.
11:05
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Follow up quickly. Just jumping back on e-scooters, the fire risk. Like many other places in the country, Milton Keynes has a real problem with illegal e-scooter use on many of our roads and pavements. One of the challenges that the police have is because of the fire risk. It creates real challenges for them in terms of confiscating and disposing of those e-scooters, which makes it very difficult to, you know, stop people from using them. Have you got any thoughts on
11:06
11:06
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah, I mean, there are it's interesting this question because, again, this was one of the areas that we discussed at the the World Fire Congress 3 or 4 weeks ago, because there's no actual silver bullet for dealing with lithium ion battery fires and e-bike and e-scooter fires in particular. There's a number of options that we have got available. So we will. So for example, in London, we work very closely with the Met Police in having secure compounds. And there are sensible things that you can do that you have an external compound that's away from any life risk, sleeping risk in particular, that you actually make sure you separate out the lithium ion battery or the e-bike or the e-scooter from anything else that could be combustible.
But of course, those storage facilities don't exist, you know, in the numbers that we actually require. Now, there's a there's a lot of science that's going into trying to deal with this issue of lithium ion batteries. There's dry powders that are now available. There's blanket particular fire blankets that are available. We've got a an ultra high pressure lance that we can use that can penetrate a battery and flood it effectively to stop it from becoming a fire risk. But what we do when we're talking to any colleagues, actually, including housing providers, so we do a lot of work here with Peabody is recommend very safe and secure storage for e-bikes and e-scooters that are away from the living accommodation.
The key thing is it needs to be away from the living accommodation. It needs to make sure it is not compromising means of escape. We need to separate out where e-bikes and e-scooters are and put additional mitigations in place that will stop any spread of fire. But in terms of actually resolving the issue of lithium ion batteries themselves, this is something that science is still playing a bit of catch up, if I'm honest with you, in terms of giving us as a fire and rescue service, the additional measures that we need. But there are things you can do that can take sensible precautions.
That means you can store these in a safe place. The actual answer is to make sure the vehicles that are being used are safe themselves. Hence my answer to the question before it's around the regulation. And if we've actually got people using lithium ion batteries and e-bikes and e-scooters, that whether they've got a kite mark or whether they've got a safety standard that we would all accept, that is actually how you resolve this issue, which is something that we've learned from international comparisons, which again, is why I was keen to stress the point that we want to see that secondary legislation come forward on the Pram Act, because I think that is how you resolve that is how you resolve this issue.
But of course, those storage facilities don't exist, you know, in the numbers that we actually require. Now, there's a there's a lot of science that's going into trying to deal with this issue of lithium ion batteries. There's dry powders that are now available. There's blanket particular fire blankets that are available. We've got a an ultra high pressure lance that we can use that can penetrate a battery and flood it effectively to stop it from becoming a fire risk. But what we do when we're talking to any colleagues, actually, including housing providers, so we do a lot of work here with Peabody is recommend very safe and secure storage for e-bikes and e-scooters that are away from the living accommodation.
The key thing is it needs to be away from the living accommodation. It needs to make sure it is not compromising means of escape. We need to separate out where e-bikes and e-scooters are and put additional mitigations in place that will stop any spread of fire. But in terms of actually resolving the issue of lithium ion batteries themselves, this is something that science is still playing a bit of catch up, if I'm honest with you, in terms of giving us as a fire and rescue service, the additional measures that we need. But there are things you can do that can take sensible precautions.
That means you can store these in a safe place. The actual answer is to make sure the vehicles that are being used are safe themselves. Hence my answer to the question before it's around the regulation. And if we've actually got people using lithium ion batteries and e-bikes and e-scooters, that whether they've got a kite mark or whether they've got a safety standard that we would all accept, that is actually how you resolve this issue, which is something that we've learned from international comparisons, which again, is why I was keen to stress the point that we want to see that secondary legislation come forward on the Pram Act, because I think that is how you resolve that is how you resolve this issue.
11:11
11:11
11:12
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah. So funnily enough, we've done we've done a significant amount with particularly Deliveroo actually. So we've run a number of sessions at a number of fire stations in London with the with those who are operating in the gig economy, in particular, Deliveroo justI a number of others who are predominantly the users of these e-bikes and e-scooters. And I have to say, particularly with Deliveroo, you know, just to give them some credit, they have really stepped into this space and about protecting their drivers. And a lot of this is education. It really is. It's about explaining the real dangers that come with this technology.
If you are using conversion kits or you are using equipment that has not got the appropriate safety standards around it. And actually, when we do that, we've had really good engagement, particularly with companies like Deliveroo, and we've just got to keep that, keep that momentum going forward. But again, that needs to be matched with the legislation keeping pace as well.
If you are using conversion kits or you are using equipment that has not got the appropriate safety standards around it. And actually, when we do that, we've had really good engagement, particularly with companies like Deliveroo, and we've just got to keep that, keep that momentum going forward. But again, that needs to be matched with the legislation keeping pace as well.
11:13
11:14
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It's a combination of all those things. The truth be told, which is why we want to see the the secondary legislation come forward so that it's actually very, very clear, you know, what charging capability is safe to be able to use. We always advise a away from purchasing online in areas that we don't know what their safety standards are, which again, is another reason why we want to see the legislation come forward. So there's no one there's no one thing. It's a combination of these of these elements that come around it, which, again, is why we want to see the legislation come forward.
11:15
11:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I was just going to to answer Mr. Curtis's point, I think it's an area that FA service can assist with. My understanding, normally of lithium ion batteries is that they are relatively stable. If they are just sitting on a shelf, it's either when they're charged or suffer some thermal shock or impact, that's when there can be an issue with them. So the example that I mentioned before was when it was on charge overnight. And as John said, often what happens is people leave them on charge in their hallways, which is the worst place they can be, because that's where you would leave, try and leave the house should there be a fire.
So my understanding is they're relatively stable. It's when they're subjected to either charging or a shock that causes the issues.
So my understanding is they're relatively stable. It's when they're subjected to either charging or a shock that causes the issues.
11:17
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
The police's risk assessment is as far as understanding the police's risk assessment is clearly that they can't move them through their normal devices, through their normal processes, though. And that's part of the problem because that makes it more difficult to confiscate them. So I mean, is there anything we can do about that?
11:17
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, are they saying that in terms of effectively putting it in their vehicles and then moving them to a. Well, I think I think the key thing, and this is what we do with the met, is it's a conversation between the local fire authority and the Buckinghamshire police in your case, that actually there are things you can do. As Simon said, as long as they've not been involved in an accident or there's not been they've not been subjected to heat, actually, they should be relatively stable. But if they have got concerns and and they're worried about how they transport this kit and equipment, then it's a conversation with a local fire service to provide that reassurance and potentially some options to help them in that endeavour, because that is the biggest risk when you see these illegal e-bikes and e-scooters on the road, as well as actually being dangerous from a road traffic collision perspective, the fire risk that comes with it as well is something we need to consider.
So there's really a key thing around partnership, partnership working there. And if there's concern, then the local fire service, I would expect to step in and assist.
So there's really a key thing around partnership, partnership working there. And if there's concern, then the local fire service, I would expect to step in and assist.
11:19
11:19
11:20
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I mean, just just from a from a London perspective. And building on what Kath was saying before, I think this is the question for our time when it comes to the Civil Defense and Homeland Defense of the UK, and I was very pleased to see what the Defence Secretary was saying the other day and the Prime Minister, supported by the Prime Minister as well, that we need to have a serious conversation about the resilience of this country. And it doesn't matter whether it's wildfire, whether it's flooding, whether it's a pandemic or whether, heaven forbid, it's some sort of war scenario that we're having to plan for as well.
There are huge challenges to the country's civil and national defence and fire and rescue, as Kath was saying before, has got a critical role to play. So we're working very closely with government at the moment at both a local level and a national level, because I do think there's a significant role for fire and rescue services to play in this civil defence, civil resilience space, because we have got well trained, well equipped and capable professional firefighters who can be deployed in a whole range of scenarios. If you look at what happened during Covid, for example, where firefighters were driving ambulances, they were setting up vaccination centres, they were doing body recovery, a whole range of other activity.
I think getting it into a firmer footing around what the role of the fire and rescue service is within civil defence and civil resilience, I actually think is a huge opportunity not only for us as a sector, but for the country's defence, because when you're looking at the pressure, that is undoubtedly going to come on the military over the next few years, making sure that fire can actually step into that space behind the military, because often you'll you'll hear of maca requests. So the military aid to the civil authority. Well, actually, if the military is having to think about our external posture, it then requires additional support in managing the resilience of the UK more broadly.
And actually, that's where fire and rescue has got a key role to play in supporting that. So we very much welcome the refreshing of the Civil Contingencies Act. I think there's a huge societal question around our civil and national defence and how we're more prepared as a country. Again, Kath was alluding to European examples. You listen to Scandinavian fire and rescue services, you listen to the fire service in Poland and other places in Europe. They are really stepping into this whole civil defence space, and I would very much welcome the opportunity for fire to be in there.
And that is the conversations that we're having through the National Fire Chiefs Council with the Fire Brigades Union, with government, around what more we can do. But I do think this is something that we really do have a USP as a sector to be able to step in and support. I've still got three fire stations in London that have got London Fire and Civil Defence Authority written on them. So some of this is. save some money that will save some money. So some of this is a bit back to the future. But I do think when you're looking at the challenges that we're facing, you know, the risks that the four of us have already discussed this morning, as well as the preparedness for any potential conflict that the UK could find itself dealing with, then I think this is this is a real question of our time.
And I think fire has got a real opportunity to step into this space.
There are huge challenges to the country's civil and national defence and fire and rescue, as Kath was saying before, has got a critical role to play. So we're working very closely with government at the moment at both a local level and a national level, because I do think there's a significant role for fire and rescue services to play in this civil defence, civil resilience space, because we have got well trained, well equipped and capable professional firefighters who can be deployed in a whole range of scenarios. If you look at what happened during Covid, for example, where firefighters were driving ambulances, they were setting up vaccination centres, they were doing body recovery, a whole range of other activity.
I think getting it into a firmer footing around what the role of the fire and rescue service is within civil defence and civil resilience, I actually think is a huge opportunity not only for us as a sector, but for the country's defence, because when you're looking at the pressure, that is undoubtedly going to come on the military over the next few years, making sure that fire can actually step into that space behind the military, because often you'll you'll hear of maca requests. So the military aid to the civil authority. Well, actually, if the military is having to think about our external posture, it then requires additional support in managing the resilience of the UK more broadly.
And actually, that's where fire and rescue has got a key role to play in supporting that. So we very much welcome the refreshing of the Civil Contingencies Act. I think there's a huge societal question around our civil and national defence and how we're more prepared as a country. Again, Kath was alluding to European examples. You listen to Scandinavian fire and rescue services, you listen to the fire service in Poland and other places in Europe. They are really stepping into this whole civil defence space, and I would very much welcome the opportunity for fire to be in there.
And that is the conversations that we're having through the National Fire Chiefs Council with the Fire Brigades Union, with government, around what more we can do. But I do think this is something that we really do have a USP as a sector to be able to step in and support. I've still got three fire stations in London that have got London Fire and Civil Defence Authority written on them. So some of this is. save some money that will save some money. So some of this is a bit back to the future. But I do think when you're looking at the challenges that we're facing, you know, the risks that the four of us have already discussed this morning, as well as the preparedness for any potential conflict that the UK could find itself dealing with, then I think this is this is a real question of our time.
And I think fire has got a real opportunity to step into this space.
11:24
11:24
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
I think, as I said, for me, the Fire and Rescue Service is right at the intersection of of risk people and, you know, people place and community. But more broadly, we hosted the Duke of Cornwall, Prince William after Storm Greta in Cornwall. And I said to him at the time around the Civil Contingencies Act, you know, that was written back in 2004. We are in a very different place in the context of risk and challenge and complexity of that risk and challenge. And, you know, you've got your cat, two responders, you've got the utility company, you've got your water and you've got your power companies.
Openreach and network providers aren't even on the list because, you know, who would have even thought that we would be living in a world where we rely so much on connectivity and our phones. So again, you know, the people, what, what is the biggest concern of, of our kind of communities? It's the fact that they lose power, lose water, lose connectivity. And those people, you know, kind of aren't necessarily required to be sat around the table or even, you know, in that cat kind of cat one responder role. But more broadly, if, if and I think your question was around the local resilience forums, I said about the risk becoming much more challenging from my perspective in Cornwall.
And obviously colleagues may disagree, but local resilience, resilience forums work because of the strong relationships that we have and the committed people, is what I would absolutely say. But too much of the system relies on goodwill. And really, as that kind of demand grows, we need to ensure that the arrangements that we've got are absolutely sustainable, but also invested in. I think there's a funny thing about preparedness, which is almost the challenge is how do you know if it works? Because if nothing happens, then you don't actually know if it's worked or not. It's very much like prevention.
And the time to invest in it is actually, you know, in peace time, we tend to invest in preparedness or prevention once a crisis has happened. But as we said, you know, the challenge is the risks that our nation faces from our perspective. And my perspective absolutely requires that investment. Now let's invest in peace time. Let's ensure, you know, the Fire and Rescue Service is prepared to step into that resilience.
Space.
Openreach and network providers aren't even on the list because, you know, who would have even thought that we would be living in a world where we rely so much on connectivity and our phones. So again, you know, the people, what, what is the biggest concern of, of our kind of communities? It's the fact that they lose power, lose water, lose connectivity. And those people, you know, kind of aren't necessarily required to be sat around the table or even, you know, in that cat kind of cat one responder role. But more broadly, if, if and I think your question was around the local resilience forums, I said about the risk becoming much more challenging from my perspective in Cornwall.
And obviously colleagues may disagree, but local resilience, resilience forums work because of the strong relationships that we have and the committed people, is what I would absolutely say. But too much of the system relies on goodwill. And really, as that kind of demand grows, we need to ensure that the arrangements that we've got are absolutely sustainable, but also invested in. I think there's a funny thing about preparedness, which is almost the challenge is how do you know if it works? Because if nothing happens, then you don't actually know if it's worked or not. It's very much like prevention.
And the time to invest in it is actually, you know, in peace time, we tend to invest in preparedness or prevention once a crisis has happened. But as we said, you know, the challenge is the risks that our nation faces from our perspective. And my perspective absolutely requires that investment. Now let's invest in peace time. Let's ensure, you know, the Fire and Rescue Service is prepared to step into that resilience.
Space.
11:25
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Chair, if I may just build upon your question as do we disagree or agree? I agree with Jonathan and Cath's comments around what the fire service could provide and does provide for resilience and working within our resilience forums in our counties. I think the challenge is we've talked a lot around, we have an amount of resource, and we have to apply that to the risks that we see within our own areas of the fire authority. And sometimes we have to make choices and decisions about where we put that risk. And that can be difficult and uncomfortable, because you can't always address every risk that you have.
And with the new risk, we talk about the, the civil resilience piece growing. And it quite rightly should to protect our country and our communities. It's a bit difficult choice of fire service as to where they're going to put that resource. Do we do that three legged stool and put it into prevention, protection or response and resilience? Because that gets to a point where we stretch our ourselves too far. And what you'll find is that across the country, fire and rescue services support their resilience forums across all of our areas, and quite often chair those resilience forums on a day to day basis, which is an added responsibility, which we enjoy doing.
We know it's the right thing to do. So I think you're right, we are best placed to be able to do that. But again, we have to think about the capacity of the fire and rescue service, our resource and what is actually our statutory duty and what we get provided funding to be able to do. So we're we're always keen to help. But again, it comes down to capacity sometimes to be able to achieve it.
And with the new risk, we talk about the, the civil resilience piece growing. And it quite rightly should to protect our country and our communities. It's a bit difficult choice of fire service as to where they're going to put that resource. Do we do that three legged stool and put it into prevention, protection or response and resilience? Because that gets to a point where we stretch our ourselves too far. And what you'll find is that across the country, fire and rescue services support their resilience forums across all of our areas, and quite often chair those resilience forums on a day to day basis, which is an added responsibility, which we enjoy doing.
We know it's the right thing to do. So I think you're right, we are best placed to be able to do that. But again, we have to think about the capacity of the fire and rescue service, our resource and what is actually our statutory duty and what we get provided funding to be able to do. So we're we're always keen to help. But again, it comes down to capacity sometimes to be able to achieve it.
11:25
11:26
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
First question. So again, I'd support my three colleagues in what they say around resilience and where fire can can step into that space. I think what we'd really like is for the government, central government to tell us what it actually wants from the fire service and fire fighters, because sometimes we think that's that's central government guidance is lacking in terms of statutory. It may surprise members of the committee to know that in the UK, sorry, in England, the fire service has no statutory duty to respond to flooding. And now, of course, we respond to flooding and we'll have lots of kit and equipment and train our firefighters to do it, but we don't get any funding to do that.
So I know that's one area that was raised in the the summit the other day and commitment to consider that statutory duty Wales has a statutory duty to respond to flooding, and the Welsh Government provides funding to the fire service for some of its equipment. And we'd like that to to be rolled out in England as well.
So I know that's one area that was raised in the the summit the other day and commitment to consider that statutory duty Wales has a statutory duty to respond to flooding, and the Welsh Government provides funding to the fire service for some of its equipment. And we'd like that to to be rolled out in England as well.
11:26
11:26
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
The the the only thing I would add to, to what my colleagues have said is there's a question and having lots of conversations with the Fire Brigades Union, I know Steve's on the on the panel next around, what is the role of a 21st century firefighter? Because when the role maps that we currently operate to first came in back in 2003 four, the world was a very different place. And I think where we find ourselves now in 2026 and all of the issues and the threats that we're now dealing with as organisations means that needs to evolve as well.
So and we're having some excellent conversations with the FBU and with the national employers, because I think underneath all this, there needs to be a complete overhaul of the current role map structure that Fire Rescue service operate under at the moment, because the world has changed. You know, when that first came in, in the early noughties, we were dealing with issues that were what you would call traditional from a fire and rescue perspective. That is not the that is not the world we're operating now in a post-COVID post, Grenfell post, Manchester Arena world, we are just operating in a very different space and we need the roadmaps to keep pace with that changing nature of the role of the organisation.
That would be the big thing I would look to change.
So and we're having some excellent conversations with the FBU and with the national employers, because I think underneath all this, there needs to be a complete overhaul of the current role map structure that Fire Rescue service operate under at the moment, because the world has changed. You know, when that first came in, in the early noughties, we were dealing with issues that were what you would call traditional from a fire and rescue perspective. That is not the that is not the world we're operating now in a post-COVID post, Grenfell post, Manchester Arena world, we are just operating in a very different space and we need the roadmaps to keep pace with that changing nature of the role of the organisation.
That would be the big thing I would look to change.
11:26
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
One thing that hasn't changed though , is, is the outstanding commitment of of our firefighters and our and our staff that work within fire and rescue services, their ability to continue to step up and want to serve their communities, the value and the respect that the public have within, you know, for, for our fire and rescue services. That hasn't changed. But I think the opportunity is now to not necessarily take advantage, but to recognise the incredible asset that you have to invest in it and to allow it to kind of support community and national resilience. Much broader.
11:26
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you. And final question from me, chair, is on building safety. So MPs are debating the second reading of the Building Safety Bill. If you don't know it, this is not a test, but it's the bill is there to make some progress on tackling unsafe buildings, particularly following Grenfell. Quite a lot of campaigners have said it. It really misses a lot of issues. Doesn't make things anywhere near safe.
They need to be. Do you have any comment on that draft legislation or other building safety issues?
They need to be. Do you have any comment on that draft legislation or other building safety issues?
11:26
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I mean, in terms of building safety more broadly, is it the remediation? The remediation bill that you're referring to? So I think the remediation bill we're obviously keen to see come forward, because we've still got 1600 buildings in London that have got simultaneous evacuation strategy on them because of various fire safety defects, including cladding. So actually, we very much welcome the remediation bill and very much welcome the but we want to see these things accelerate. You know, for me, there are still far too many buildings across the whole of the UK that are unfit and are unsafe, and they've got additional remedies in place, particularly around simultaneous evacuation.
And fire and rescue services are having to take account of buildings not behaving in the way that we would expect. And that can't be right. And so the legislation we want to see come through, there's a whole, to be fair, in the post Grenfell world, there's been a whole slew of legislation that has been designed to improve building safety, and it's all heading in the right direction. I think the big ask from us is that we want to see that accelerated, and all of this legislation we only see as the first part, and we'll need to build on it.
So the ARP, the residential emergency evacuation plans, which is bringing bringing equity of rescue to disabled people, actually, again, we see that as a very, very good first start. But there's again, more that we think needs to be done. And the same is true across a whole slew of legislation. But is it moving us in the right direction? Yes it is, but we want to see that. We want to see the pace continue to increase.
And fire and rescue services are having to take account of buildings not behaving in the way that we would expect. And that can't be right. And so the legislation we want to see come through, there's a whole, to be fair, in the post Grenfell world, there's been a whole slew of legislation that has been designed to improve building safety, and it's all heading in the right direction. I think the big ask from us is that we want to see that accelerated, and all of this legislation we only see as the first part, and we'll need to build on it.
So the ARP, the residential emergency evacuation plans, which is bringing bringing equity of rescue to disabled people, actually, again, we see that as a very, very good first start. But there's again, more that we think needs to be done. And the same is true across a whole slew of legislation. But is it moving us in the right direction? Yes it is, but we want to see that. We want to see the pace continue to increase.
11:27
11:27
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, I think in terms of it's very difficult to actually put a set time frame because actually every building is very different. And no fire safety risk is exactly the same because the type of cladding, the type of fire safety defect will mean, you'll have to think. But for me, you know, it has to be very, very strong legislation that is putting that emphasis on the responsible person and the building owners when they know that they've got unsafe buildings, to see them remediated, to see the fire safety changes made that make those buildings safe. You know, we want to see that happen as quickly as possible.
You know, next year is the 10th anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire, which in itself is extraordinary. And yes, we've done a lot of good things around legislation to push this forward. The establishment of the building safety regulator, you know, has been a very positive thing, and working very closely with the BSR has been important. But this legislation is only the first start. The bigger the bigger issue actually is the culture change within the sector and making sure that that culture change, where safety is at the centre of everything that it is when we're building new houses, when we're looking at the built environment that we're operating in, is that safety and fire safety specifically, but also building safety more broadly, cuts through the culture of everyone who's involved with building moving forward.
And I think if we get that right, then actually the legislation will keep pace with with that change. But it's something we have to be relentless about. That's one of the big lessons that's come from Grenfell Tower, is we have to be relentless in that space and making sure that fire's voice is heard loud and clear at the table when it comes to building safety.
You know, next year is the 10th anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire, which in itself is extraordinary. And yes, we've done a lot of good things around legislation to push this forward. The establishment of the building safety regulator, you know, has been a very positive thing, and working very closely with the BSR has been important. But this legislation is only the first start. The bigger the bigger issue actually is the culture change within the sector and making sure that that culture change, where safety is at the centre of everything that it is when we're building new houses, when we're looking at the built environment that we're operating in, is that safety and fire safety specifically, but also building safety more broadly, cuts through the culture of everyone who's involved with building moving forward.
And I think if we get that right, then actually the legislation will keep pace with with that change. But it's something we have to be relentless about. That's one of the big lessons that's come from Grenfell Tower, is we have to be relentless in that space and making sure that fire's voice is heard loud and clear at the table when it comes to building safety.
11:27
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Months, the government's given is planned to give landlords those over 100 buildings that have yet to identify if they've got cladding. One of the things I was just thinking about, I found this really useful, is we're looking to do a submission to the government, and we want to be helpful in terms of the work that you're doing, in terms of what to prioritise. I've heard particularly that the secondary legislation, particularly with lithium batteries and the scooters, will help mitigate that substantially. And also, I'm hearing from you that emergency alerts are the way forward, and that's something you would probably want us to kind of recommend.
As you know, the government did the wildfire summit on Friday. I know that you went to a summit in Singapore. I just wondering if there's any gaps that you want to mention to us that we could put in, and we could certainly follow up, but I also think there's the civil contingency. I know the government's looking at that, and I do think your best place to kind of give direction, given that you chair a lot of the forums up and down the country in terms of what you want to see on that, because I know you've said you're looking for some clarity from the government about what you want to see.
If you could give us a steer us to what you want us to say. This is what your service is saying. Your sector is saying. We can certainly make those recommendations. So I'm not expecting you to answer that now because certainly follow that up. If there's something burning that you just want to flag with, flag with us. Now, that would be helpful.
As you know, the government did the wildfire summit on Friday. I know that you went to a summit in Singapore. I just wondering if there's any gaps that you want to mention to us that we could put in, and we could certainly follow up, but I also think there's the civil contingency. I know the government's looking at that, and I do think your best place to kind of give direction, given that you chair a lot of the forums up and down the country in terms of what you want to see on that, because I know you've said you're looking for some clarity from the government about what you want to see.
If you could give us a steer us to what you want us to say. This is what your service is saying. Your sector is saying. We can certainly make those recommendations. So I'm not expecting you to answer that now because certainly follow that up. If there's something burning that you just want to flag with, flag with us. Now, that would be helpful.
11:27
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
I think it I think it is that key piece around. We recognise, as we've said to you today, you know, the the complexity, the challenges, the risks are significant . And they are coming at us as a nation and communities at pace. And it just is that piece around, you know, you have got you've got four of us here today, but you've got all fire and rescue services. And I'm sure you'll hear from the chair of the National Fire Chiefs Council later. You know, we are always willing to step up. We're we're stood there saying, you know, we are we're ready, but we're probably not as prepared as we should.
Resources. Yeah. It's just that, again, the clarity of the role of the firefighter, what is it that the government would like us to do? And if you don't want us to step into resilience space, then then that's fine as well. But from our perspective, we believe that we've got a compelling case. We we kind of do it anyway, you know, just kind of just take advantage of the incredible asset, the respected and trusted asset that you've got at your disposal, but provide us the clarity, provide us that direction, set the expectations. And unfortunately, you probably hear from many will just need that capacity and investment.
Resources. Yeah. It's just that, again, the clarity of the role of the firefighter, what is it that the government would like us to do? And if you don't want us to step into resilience space, then then that's fine as well. But from our perspective, we believe that we've got a compelling case. We we kind of do it anyway, you know, just kind of just take advantage of the incredible asset, the respected and trusted asset that you've got at your disposal, but provide us the clarity, provide us that direction, set the expectations. And unfortunately, you probably hear from many will just need that capacity and investment.
11:28
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
There is the resourcing. The resourcing for me is, is, is, is the key point. You know, fire rescue service, whether they're the largest one like London or whether they're one that's very reliant on, on call services like, like Caths and Johns actually have been significantly underfunded for 20 years. And, you know, the resourcing that we've got available now to deal with these risks that we're facing is just not enough to deal with the plethora of challenges that the modern Fire and Rescue Service is now expected to deal with. Now we will deal with them, but they do require that investment, which, again, is why the wildfire summit and the proposals that were coming from that is a really good step forward.
I think the acknowledgement that fire and rescue services need that resource, but it will also look different. You know, for example, I won't need an air capability in London to deal with wildfires in London, but I will need PPE for frontline fire fighters. And similarly, it will be different across the board. So I think if we're getting into a position where there's an acknowledgement that resourcing is something that needs to come forward for UK fire and rescue services, then I think there will also have to then be a degree of localism that comes with that, because the risks and challenges in London are obviously very different to the risks and challenges that Cath will face.
But broadly speaking, the investment in Fire and Rescue service will have huge dividends for the UK civil resilience. I think that's the big thing. This is not just an ask for more resource for the sake of it. This is actually to deal with the risks that we're now faced with to help the country be more resilient to the types of challenges that we know we're going to face over the next five, ten, 15 years.
I think the acknowledgement that fire and rescue services need that resource, but it will also look different. You know, for example, I won't need an air capability in London to deal with wildfires in London, but I will need PPE for frontline fire fighters. And similarly, it will be different across the board. So I think if we're getting into a position where there's an acknowledgement that resourcing is something that needs to come forward for UK fire and rescue services, then I think there will also have to then be a degree of localism that comes with that, because the risks and challenges in London are obviously very different to the risks and challenges that Cath will face.
But broadly speaking, the investment in Fire and Rescue service will have huge dividends for the UK civil resilience. I think that's the big thing. This is not just an ask for more resource for the sake of it. This is actually to deal with the risks that we're now faced with to help the country be more resilient to the types of challenges that we know we're going to face over the next five, ten, 15 years.
11:28
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Be helpful. I know the Wildlife summit did look at PPE in terms of making sure that was adequately resourced. I found that really helpful. I'm sure the rest of the committee did as well. They've given us a lot to raise on your behalf, so if there's any. Thank you. Do you feel that you've missed out? Please liaise with our team.
So thank you for your time. Thank you.
So thank you for your time. Thank you.
11:28
11:28
11:28
11:28
11:29
11:29
11:29
11:29
11:29
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
Thanks. And we'll just start off with two questions briefly to all of you, if that's all right. Firstly, how would you describe the the state of the Fire and Rescue Service in England today? And then secondly, how would you describe the resource challenge that the fire service is going to face between now and, let's say, 2030 or the end of this Parliament? Steve, do you want to go first on that?
11:29
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Yeah, thanks. It's an important question, isn't it? And I think what we have seen and what you've just heard from the chief officers is over the last 20 years has been a severe under underinvestment and funding in the fire and rescue service across the UK. But England in particular, losing 10,000 firefighters from 2010 onwards, 1 in 5 of the workforce lost. And that has a huge impact. It has an impact in not just firefighter safety, but public safety. It means we're getting to incidents slower than we're used to. We saw ten fire stations closed in this city alone, and that has an impact with response times.
Responding to the array of incidents that you've heard from the previous panel of what we attend now. And I joined the fire service in 2001, and the job has changed significantly since then. But what hasn't kept pace is the resources that we need to respond to these incidents. And you look at the wildfires this summer and do not underestimate the the conditions that firefighters were working in. I was on a fire station last night. I was on a fire station in Wales last week talking about the impact of not having the right PPE, not having the right resources, limited welfare breaks during that period.
And when firefighters were on the front line of these wildfires, was at the same time as the World Cup was taking place, where professional footballers were taking hydration breaks every 20 minutes were firefighters reports we had were on the front line for over 20, 30 hours, and that has had a massive impact on, I think, the mental health of firefighters and the Stourbridge incident. The Wennington fires in 2022. Firefighters respond to incidents expecting to be able to deal with what's in front of them. Reports from our control rooms across the UK of our members in those control rooms, taking nine, nine, nine calls from members of the public and having to tell them that there are no resources to send to those incidents.
And I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who's been on the front line of dealing with these wildfires. And I sympathy for the chief officers that having to make those difficult decisions without the resources in place to deal with them. So when we talk about on call firefighters, the impact on our control members, the impact on officers, there are just not enough resources in place. And I think it's a it's tragic that in 2026, really not learning lessons of the past and wildfires, as an example, was placed on the National Risk Register in 2013. In 2022, we saw a whole street in Wennington burned to the ground.
And yet we're still here making the case that we need more firefighters on the front line.
Responding to the array of incidents that you've heard from the previous panel of what we attend now. And I joined the fire service in 2001, and the job has changed significantly since then. But what hasn't kept pace is the resources that we need to respond to these incidents. And you look at the wildfires this summer and do not underestimate the the conditions that firefighters were working in. I was on a fire station last night. I was on a fire station in Wales last week talking about the impact of not having the right PPE, not having the right resources, limited welfare breaks during that period.
And when firefighters were on the front line of these wildfires, was at the same time as the World Cup was taking place, where professional footballers were taking hydration breaks every 20 minutes were firefighters reports we had were on the front line for over 20, 30 hours, and that has had a massive impact on, I think, the mental health of firefighters and the Stourbridge incident. The Wennington fires in 2022. Firefighters respond to incidents expecting to be able to deal with what's in front of them. Reports from our control rooms across the UK of our members in those control rooms, taking nine, nine, nine calls from members of the public and having to tell them that there are no resources to send to those incidents.
And I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who's been on the front line of dealing with these wildfires. And I sympathy for the chief officers that having to make those difficult decisions without the resources in place to deal with them. So when we talk about on call firefighters, the impact on our control members, the impact on officers, there are just not enough resources in place. And I think it's a it's tragic that in 2026, really not learning lessons of the past and wildfires, as an example, was placed on the National Risk Register in 2013. In 2022, we saw a whole street in Wennington burned to the ground.
And yet we're still here making the case that we need more firefighters on the front line.
11:30
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Yeah, probably some of the things that Steve just alluded to, to be fair, but both Steve and I attended the wildfire summit in Merseyside last week. So if there's any specific questions, I'm sure we can feel them. And so if you wanted to describe the state of fire and rescue services as it stands, I think the the climate and the kind of the context in which we operate has changed significantly since the 37 years that since I've been in the service, the role responsibilities of Fire and rescue service now is significantly different. The risk and demand is changing.
And if and again, I won't go back as far as Steve, but if you go back ten years, you know, the increase in demand on the Fire and Rescue Service has now risen by 21%. Jonathan Smith, the Commissioner of London, describes going to 44 different instance types over that period. And that doesn't surprise me. That probably extends to 50 or so incidents that we would respond to across the UK Fire and Rescue Service. But you've seen the number of firefighters over that same period decline by 14%. So we've got 11,000 firefighters than we had then.
So you fast forward into what has been a significantly busy period for for the fire and rescue service over that wildfire period. And Steve is absolutely right. There were times there where services were requested and resource, human resource, you know, in specifically. And we weren't able to facilitate those requests at times during that really peak time of activity. Now, I was, as I said previously, the chief of Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service. So we would often coordinate the national response mutual aid. So I know I'm very familiar with it. I know what that looks like.
That's probably the first time that we've been unable to facilitate demands that were placed on the Fire and Rescue service, and that's look, that's climate related. You know, we talk about wildfires specifically, and we've seen some really positive indications from the current government in regards to investment in in the response. I still think it requires more than that. I actually think that it's it's workforce capability, workforce capacity that we need to address. And what I would, you know, what I would hope and suggest in the longer term, we see this as a really strategic solution to some of the broader challenges facing UK, particularly around resilience.
So it's not just wildfire. It's not just flood, it's the geopolitical threat. It's where the Fire and Rescue Service can step in and support communities. And the only other thing I'd say before I kind of, you know, oppose, you know, we are very much predicated. The role that we fulfill is putting the communities that we serve first. The public always come first, and everything we do is to protect them. And that is really important. So the things that I'm saying here and the things that I've said over the last number of years in this role, is very much about ensuring the public are protected for every eventuality, whether that be, you know, the risk that they face in high rise buildings, whether that's the risks that they face for wildfire, for flood, it's about ensuring the fire and rescue services are on the front foot, and they are equipped and capable of, of dealing with every eventuality in the way that the public would expect.
Thank you.
And if and again, I won't go back as far as Steve, but if you go back ten years, you know, the increase in demand on the Fire and Rescue Service has now risen by 21%. Jonathan Smith, the Commissioner of London, describes going to 44 different instance types over that period. And that doesn't surprise me. That probably extends to 50 or so incidents that we would respond to across the UK Fire and Rescue Service. But you've seen the number of firefighters over that same period decline by 14%. So we've got 11,000 firefighters than we had then.
So you fast forward into what has been a significantly busy period for for the fire and rescue service over that wildfire period. And Steve is absolutely right. There were times there where services were requested and resource, human resource, you know, in specifically. And we weren't able to facilitate those requests at times during that really peak time of activity. Now, I was, as I said previously, the chief of Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service. So we would often coordinate the national response mutual aid. So I know I'm very familiar with it. I know what that looks like.
That's probably the first time that we've been unable to facilitate demands that were placed on the Fire and Rescue service, and that's look, that's climate related. You know, we talk about wildfires specifically, and we've seen some really positive indications from the current government in regards to investment in in the response. I still think it requires more than that. I actually think that it's it's workforce capability, workforce capacity that we need to address. And what I would, you know, what I would hope and suggest in the longer term, we see this as a really strategic solution to some of the broader challenges facing UK, particularly around resilience.
So it's not just wildfire. It's not just flood, it's the geopolitical threat. It's where the Fire and Rescue Service can step in and support communities. And the only other thing I'd say before I kind of, you know, oppose, you know, we are very much predicated. The role that we fulfill is putting the communities that we serve first. The public always come first, and everything we do is to protect them. And that is really important. So the things that I'm saying here and the things that I've said over the last number of years in this role, is very much about ensuring the public are protected for every eventuality, whether that be, you know, the risk that they face in high rise buildings, whether that's the risks that they face for wildfire, for flood, it's about ensuring the fire and rescue services are on the front foot, and they are equipped and capable of, of dealing with every eventuality in the way that the public would expect.
Thank you.
11:36
11:36
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
I will chip in. So as people have mentioned, there'd be 45 years next month that I joined London Fire Brigade. So I've been around for a while now, inspect fire services and police forces, and we are into our fourth round of inspection of fire services. We actually look very clinically at what fire is doing, and I'm pleased to report that we've seen some improvements this year round. It's it's been quite a journey. We've seen lots of improvement in terms of leadership, culture prevention, protection. It, strangely enough, is the response area that needs a bit more work.
But what's behind that is the identification of risk. So chief viruses in their community risk management plans are looking at risk. Much better to allocating resources, much better to where it's needed. And in terms of resource on your sort of everyday work that seems to manage, I think is the surge capacity that is the problem. So the the wildfires, the flooding where you need extra resource. And it's not every day of every year, although there has been a reduction, it's that ability to step up and surge, as Jonathan Smith was describing, that I think they link into.
But undoubtedly resources are tight, resources have reduced the. The grant allocations haven't kept up with pay rises. There are fewer firefighters. There's not enough capital investment. I think that's a real issue if we're talking about new equipment for fire services, the the cost of borrowing to buy that equipment is increasing without capital investment. But overall, pleased to say this, in our fourth round, halfway through, we have seen some really pleasing improvements.
But what's behind that is the identification of risk. So chief viruses in their community risk management plans are looking at risk. Much better to allocating resources, much better to where it's needed. And in terms of resource on your sort of everyday work that seems to manage, I think is the surge capacity that is the problem. So the the wildfires, the flooding where you need extra resource. And it's not every day of every year, although there has been a reduction, it's that ability to step up and surge, as Jonathan Smith was describing, that I think they link into.
But undoubtedly resources are tight, resources have reduced the. The grant allocations haven't kept up with pay rises. There are fewer firefighters. There's not enough capital investment. I think that's a real issue if we're talking about new equipment for fire services, the the cost of borrowing to buy that equipment is increasing without capital investment. But overall, pleased to say this, in our fourth round, halfway through, we have seen some really pleasing improvements.
11:39
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
Can I just a quick follow up on your questions, please? Look, I mean, I don't think it will take us much convincing that the challenging financial situation that many of our fire services have been in , and that given the extra pressures of climate change, lithium batteries, the cuts that we saw in the previous years were clearly a mistake. But we do still operate in a world where there is going to be a fixed pot of money, and it's never going to be enough. So is there anything the government can do to help fire services? I know that you probably operating far more efficiently because of those difficult challenges, but to operate more efficiently or to be able to move resources from towards the kind of challenges that we're going to face in the future.
11:41
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Yeah. Look, I suppose, you know, it's interesting we talk about, you know, reflecting the risks and the risks are significant, but we've also got to reflect the demand placed on the sector to and really gives you an example of that, I suppose, from a financial point of view, and trying to ensure that we've got the right resources to be able to respond to the to the challenges that we face. You know, the there's some things which are challenging for us at this moment in time. So some of the links into and we welcome the multi-year settlement around funding, by the way, that's absolutely applauded.
But but some of the kind of financial implications for that and the link to GDP deflator means that what we would envisage is that the uplift in Grand Theft and Rescue Service would receive won't reflect inflationary pressures that we're facing. So when we talk about uplifting wildfire PPE, by way of example, the costs of PPE will be increasing with with inflation and the money that we are receiving won't equally, we've got inequity that exists across fire and rescue services around governance models, which I'm sure we may well touch on. But for some they have the luxury of of council tax flexibility.
For others, they have, you know, significant restrictions still built in. So some fire and rescue services can address the shortcomings within their services or the gaps that they they perceive by increasing council tax. And then the only other financial consideration I would make is Farm Rescue Service, used to receive capital funding up until 2013. You know, we received no capital funding now. So in effect, what we have to do is borrow. And as we borrow, that has an implication on on revenue or we build up the revenue. So we take it away. So that kind of means that we are sometimes papering over the cracks.
And so when you look at the car, the fire stations of which the firefighters work in, and many of them are across the UK now are not fit for purpose, really. They don't have the facilities for around diversity and they don't manage the contaminant risk, which is present in the everyday life of a firefighter. So, you know, ensuring that the grant reflects inflation, ensuring that the council tax flexibility is afforded across the board, and also recognising the capital challenges would be my three asks around the financial envelope.
But but some of the kind of financial implications for that and the link to GDP deflator means that what we would envisage is that the uplift in Grand Theft and Rescue Service would receive won't reflect inflationary pressures that we're facing. So when we talk about uplifting wildfire PPE, by way of example, the costs of PPE will be increasing with with inflation and the money that we are receiving won't equally, we've got inequity that exists across fire and rescue services around governance models, which I'm sure we may well touch on. But for some they have the luxury of of council tax flexibility.
For others, they have, you know, significant restrictions still built in. So some fire and rescue services can address the shortcomings within their services or the gaps that they they perceive by increasing council tax. And then the only other financial consideration I would make is Farm Rescue Service, used to receive capital funding up until 2013. You know, we received no capital funding now. So in effect, what we have to do is borrow. And as we borrow, that has an implication on on revenue or we build up the revenue. So we take it away. So that kind of means that we are sometimes papering over the cracks.
And so when you look at the car, the fire stations of which the firefighters work in, and many of them are across the UK now are not fit for purpose, really. They don't have the facilities for around diversity and they don't manage the contaminant risk, which is present in the everyday life of a firefighter. So, you know, ensuring that the grant reflects inflation, ensuring that the council tax flexibility is afforded across the board, and also recognising the capital challenges would be my three asks around the financial envelope.
11:46
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
A bit from me, Steve, you've just mentioned contaminant risk there. Look, we know there's plenty of evidence now that firefighters face a significantly increased risk of cancer later into their lives. We have some good measures from government back in April, I think welcome measures from government back in April about how they're considering that. Do you think they go far enough? And as a union, is there anything more you would ask for from government?
11:47
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I think there's three elements to. Deacon is our campaign is named to prevent the risk of cancer in firefighters. And it's something it's a personal issue for me and something I campaigned heavily on when I stood to be the general secretary a couple of years ago, having lost my father, a 30 year firefighter, to cancer and having a son in the job as well, I think it's about protecting the future of our firefighters. And one is about making sure there's investment in every single fire and rescue service, making sure that fire stations are adequately prepared to deal with the contamination risk.
And the second is, and we welcomed the announcement from the Health secretary at the time, Wes Streeting, in September for health monitoring. And we're working hard to make sure that is in place in 2027, as per the government's commitment. And I think that will go a long way to one, dealing with the mental issues that firefighters face, knowing that that threat exists and knowing that something's in place. And then thirdly, I think it's about having a conversation around presumptive legislation, which is in place in many parts of the world, but not here in the UK.
We lag way behind many countries the US, Canada, Australia and many parts of Europe in that. And I think they're the three areas that we really need to get investment in to make sure that firefighters are protected from what is a known risk, but one that is not necessarily in plain sight, as is operational incidents that we attend. And if I may just take one opportunity, is everyone, I think, has spoken about the lack of resources and the cuts that we've seen in the fire service. We've had to run significant campaigns this past year to keep fire stations open.
In Oxfordshire, our members were balloted for industrial action and kept open for fire stations in Dorset and Wiltshire. We were set to see eight fire stations closed and we're having to run campaigns at the moment in West Midlands and Cleveland, where there are proposals to reduce night time cover, to close fire stations in some places and reduce the number of fire engines. So it's not a historic issue that we can keep pointing to. Austerity that has dropped the number of firefighters that me and Phil have both spoken about. It's happening now. And I think what can you do now is to prevent those issues that we're facing, frontline cuts that are having an impact on our safety.
And the second is, and we welcomed the announcement from the Health secretary at the time, Wes Streeting, in September for health monitoring. And we're working hard to make sure that is in place in 2027, as per the government's commitment. And I think that will go a long way to one, dealing with the mental issues that firefighters face, knowing that that threat exists and knowing that something's in place. And then thirdly, I think it's about having a conversation around presumptive legislation, which is in place in many parts of the world, but not here in the UK.
We lag way behind many countries the US, Canada, Australia and many parts of Europe in that. And I think they're the three areas that we really need to get investment in to make sure that firefighters are protected from what is a known risk, but one that is not necessarily in plain sight, as is operational incidents that we attend. And if I may just take one opportunity, is everyone, I think, has spoken about the lack of resources and the cuts that we've seen in the fire service. We've had to run significant campaigns this past year to keep fire stations open.
In Oxfordshire, our members were balloted for industrial action and kept open for fire stations in Dorset and Wiltshire. We were set to see eight fire stations closed and we're having to run campaigns at the moment in West Midlands and Cleveland, where there are proposals to reduce night time cover, to close fire stations in some places and reduce the number of fire engines. So it's not a historic issue that we can keep pointing to. Austerity that has dropped the number of firefighters that me and Phil have both spoken about. It's happening now. And I think what can you do now is to prevent those issues that we're facing, frontline cuts that are having an impact on our safety.
11:51
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
And just a final question for me. Look, we know that there's an increased risk. There's a very real chance that that risk may continue to increase, because if you look around the rest of the world, wildfires is also arguably a very big impact to cancer risk from people who live near them. Therefore, fire service increasingly going to these could increase that risk. When you look at the way the Industrial Injury Advisory Council works, it seems to me that basically they're looking at they acknowledge that there's an increased risk, but because it doesn't double the risk of any illness, 16 to 58% increase of cancer risks.
The numbers I've got here potentially a bit higher. That limits fire service, fire Personnel's ability to get compensation or access to some of those extra health protection measures that you talk about. Do you think we need to rethink the way the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council works, so that it can better account for places where there is an increased risk, but not a doubling in risk of things like cancer?
The numbers I've got here potentially a bit higher. That limits fire service, fire Personnel's ability to get compensation or access to some of those extra health protection measures that you talk about. Do you think we need to rethink the way the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council works, so that it can better account for places where there is an increased risk, but not a doubling in risk of things like cancer?
11:53
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
100%. And I think we need to learn our lessons from other countries. We spoke to firefighter unions all across the globe and where they've advanced it recently in Norway. They've just advanced the case on presumptive legislation. So I certainly think it's something that should be explored and looked into about how that is. As you quite clearly state, how we look at things, and that needs to be considered. .
11:54
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Just a quick one. You talked about work capability earlier, Phil, and this is for anyone in the panel. I just wanted to understand about staff retention, if that is a concern at the moment in terms of keeping people in post, we do know that generally with the fire service, you have people working in post for a long time, but I'm just worried about the new generation that's coming up. I hear that there's challenges.
11:55
11:55
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
If I may. Yeah, I would concur with that from a from a whole time perspective. So the firefighters who are employed and that's their career, the on call, you know, so people reference the on call system in the previous panel session. And we've done some work. We've done some research around the on call arrangements that are in place. And, and the report described the position as fragile. And so we often find that we're not able to, to, to feel fire engines because we have lack of availability of people who, who, you know, work a day job and then make themselves available for the fire and rescue service out of hours.
That is a real challenge for us. There was 104 recommendations made with the exact report that was commissioned to look into the on call system and how we can strengthen that. We welcome the support from Mhclg, MHC. LG have committed financially resourcing and individuals to work with us to explore the ways in which you can you can recruit more and retain people for longer, but recognizing that we're operating against the societal challenge and we've got to ensure that the the offer to the employee. So the on call firefighter is strong, but also the employer to allow them to, to stop their day job, to put some stuff down, to go and maybe spend a week or so dealing with a wildfire.
And so there is a significant amount of work for us to do, I think, in regards to strengthening the on call system. But we you know, what I would say is it's not always motivated by money. In fairness to people who step up and do spend, you know, days on, on, on hills dealing with wildfires on motivated really particularly by really community spirit and protecting the communities in which they live. And so we've got to find that sweet spot where we are able to, to meet their ambition and their aspiration and protect them and the communities that they serve and a really effective way.
So retention within the Fire and Rescue Service and the whole time provision is no is not an issue. But in the on call system, it needs to be strengthened because it is fragile.
That is a real challenge for us. There was 104 recommendations made with the exact report that was commissioned to look into the on call system and how we can strengthen that. We welcome the support from Mhclg, MHC. LG have committed financially resourcing and individuals to work with us to explore the ways in which you can you can recruit more and retain people for longer, but recognizing that we're operating against the societal challenge and we've got to ensure that the the offer to the employee. So the on call firefighter is strong, but also the employer to allow them to, to stop their day job, to put some stuff down, to go and maybe spend a week or so dealing with a wildfire.
And so there is a significant amount of work for us to do, I think, in regards to strengthening the on call system. But we you know, what I would say is it's not always motivated by money. In fairness to people who step up and do spend, you know, days on, on, on hills dealing with wildfires on motivated really particularly by really community spirit and protecting the communities in which they live. And so we've got to find that sweet spot where we are able to, to meet their ambition and their aspiration and protect them and the communities that they serve and a really effective way.
So retention within the Fire and Rescue Service and the whole time provision is no is not an issue. But in the on call system, it needs to be strengthened because it is fragile.
11:59
12:00
12:00
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Well, I think we've made some significant progress. And and Jonathan Smith on the previous panel talked through the kind of the legislative changes that have happened as a result of of Grenfell and the recommendations that are followed. And the national fire chiefs have been working tirelessly in regards to seeking to work our way through the recommendations that were either applicable to the sector more broadly or London specifically, and take some of the learning from that. But there is undoubtedly still work to be done, because if you go back to Jonathan's point around still unremediated buildings, and I think he referenced over a thousand in in London that had over 2000 across England that haven't yet been remediated.
So, you know, self-evidently, we are ten years on and there's still some classified as unsafe buildings that we need to seek to address. It's not singularly you would accept, I think Grenfell and the inquiry would accept this too, that, you know, there's a system requirement in this. It's not just down to fire and rescue services and the role that it fulfils. There are a number of key partners, organisations who are who need to support us to collectively address the the gaps that remain. We've learnt a lot. And, you know, and self-evidently, you know, some of the the biggest learning has come around the the families and the survivors and those affected and how they, they felt during that period.
And we've done some extensive work. And I really do applaud the work around the duty of candour, Hillsborough law and, and the like, because that puts the victim, the survivor, and the family at the centre of some of the the decision making for, for organisations. I think that's really important. And it's something we've sought to instill in, in fire rescue services, length and breadth of the country. There's still work to be done. Jonathan talked about accelerating that, you know, and doing that at pace. I think that's still required. You know, we can't we shouldn't find ourselves ten years on, we're still remediating buildings and people living in unsafe conditions.
So, you know, self-evidently, we are ten years on and there's still some classified as unsafe buildings that we need to seek to address. It's not singularly you would accept, I think Grenfell and the inquiry would accept this too, that, you know, there's a system requirement in this. It's not just down to fire and rescue services and the role that it fulfils. There are a number of key partners, organisations who are who need to support us to collectively address the the gaps that remain. We've learnt a lot. And, you know, and self-evidently, you know, some of the the biggest learning has come around the the families and the survivors and those affected and how they, they felt during that period.
And we've done some extensive work. And I really do applaud the work around the duty of candour, Hillsborough law and, and the like, because that puts the victim, the survivor, and the family at the centre of some of the the decision making for, for organisations. I think that's really important. And it's something we've sought to instill in, in fire rescue services, length and breadth of the country. There's still work to be done. Jonathan talked about accelerating that, you know, and doing that at pace. I think that's still required. You know, we can't we shouldn't find ourselves ten years on, we're still remediating buildings and people living in unsafe conditions.
12:01
12:01
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
Just from an inspectorate point of view, we put specific questions into our inspections about how fire services have dealt with the recommendations that apply specifically to them. And again, there's been really good progress in terms of fire protection and safety, the competence of the officers, the work they do, the work in fire controls, on fire survival guidance. If there's a number of calls come through communication between the fire and the controls themselves, the works there. But this is one area where retention of staff can be a problem for fire services because they get trained up, they've skilled up, there's work in the private sector, so they might leave.
And also pressure from the building safety regulator asking fire services, particularly in urban, you've got West Midlands and London here, particularly in urban areas and East Sussex, and went to Wendy's Hearts , where there's a lot of high rise. So we've seen good training, good survival guidance, training of protection. It's the remediation, it's the other parts of the system that really need to catch up with the work the fire service has done.
And also pressure from the building safety regulator asking fire services, particularly in urban, you've got West Midlands and London here, particularly in urban areas and East Sussex, and went to Wendy's Hearts , where there's a lot of high rise. So we've seen good training, good survival guidance, training of protection. It's the remediation, it's the other parts of the system that really need to catch up with the work the fire service has done.
12:01
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
I, if I may, just to echo that, I think one of the things that is a real problem is that, of course, you've got councils who are also responsible for these buildings, and while councils are very keen to see their. The housing stock that they provide at the appropriate standard at the LGA, of course, we believe that everybody should have the right to a safe and secure home, but keeping pace with that is really difficult with councils really struggling financially. And then the other side of that is also looking at when remediation has happened, whether the fire safety engagement assessments are at the right standard.
So making sure that there is training in place to keep building up that that workforce, making sure that that workforce force is working
So making sure that there is training in place to keep building up that that workforce, making sure that that workforce force is working
12:01
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Happened is of a quality that is appropriate to make those those homes make those homes safe. And that is a it's a real challenge. And one of the things that would be an ask from the LGA is that industry should be paying for building safety remediation. And that includes also looking at how that gets paid for when the assessments are done of the remediation, to be sure that that mediation is of a good standard. And if if I may, just to come back to the point about the the state of fire, so I would make a strong argument about needing to have additional resource.
And that's both in terms of revenue and capital. The LGA absolutely welcomes the multi-year settlement. But if I can give an example of the lack of capital investment. So as Roy has pointed out, I'm in East Sussex, I'm specifically in Lewis. Lewis has a fire station that was meant to be the Gold Command center in the Lewis 2000 floods. 25 years on, that fire station is still in the floodplain. That fire station. Even though there have been increased fire defense. Sorry, flood defences nearby, that that station is likely to go under should we have another flood.
And and that is a massive challenge. And that's obviously I'm talking about Lewis and East Sussex. But that is something that you see repeated nationally. And the last thing I did want to say was also, you know, we are we hold such respect and appreciation for all of the hard work of our firefighters. It is a remarkable what they manage to achieve achieve this this summer. But one thing that hasn't changed in the state of fire, and I say this in a in a general way, is just how much they are a resource for our communities and a key resource for our communities.
Because of the respect with which the fire service is held. And that is something that has not changed. While all these other changes around extreme weather, new technologies, pressures on finances, what remains is the respect with which our fire service is held in our communities, and that is a huge asset, a huge resource. If we're looking for whole society resilience.
And that's both in terms of revenue and capital. The LGA absolutely welcomes the multi-year settlement. But if I can give an example of the lack of capital investment. So as Roy has pointed out, I'm in East Sussex, I'm specifically in Lewis. Lewis has a fire station that was meant to be the Gold Command center in the Lewis 2000 floods. 25 years on, that fire station is still in the floodplain. That fire station. Even though there have been increased fire defense. Sorry, flood defences nearby, that that station is likely to go under should we have another flood.
And and that is a massive challenge. And that's obviously I'm talking about Lewis and East Sussex. But that is something that you see repeated nationally. And the last thing I did want to say was also, you know, we are we hold such respect and appreciation for all of the hard work of our firefighters. It is a remarkable what they manage to achieve achieve this this summer. But one thing that hasn't changed in the state of fire, and I say this in a in a general way, is just how much they are a resource for our communities and a key resource for our communities.
Because of the respect with which the fire service is held. And that is something that has not changed. While all these other changes around extreme weather, new technologies, pressures on finances, what remains is the respect with which our fire service is held in our communities, and that is a huge asset, a huge resource. If we're looking for whole society resilience.
12:01
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
Yeah, I think the Grenfell Tower fire is a measure of the state of the Fire and Rescue Service . And systemic failures, including the Fire and Rescue Service played its part. And I think we need to listen to when Andy Burnham talks about 40 years of neoliberalism, how what impact deregulation had, the impact of privatisation had, and lessons have still not been learned for 72 people to lose their lives, 300 people to lose their homes. And that's why we firmly stand with the bereaved, the survivors and the residents attend the Grenfell Tower silent walks every year to make sure that they understand that we stand with them.
So I think there are lessons still to be learnt around this. And I think one recommendation from the Grenfell Tower inquiry around the College of Fire and Rescue Service, which we may get into, I think is an opportunity actually, for the fire service to set national standards, to deliver a fire rescue service fit for the future, to be resilient, to respond to the incidents that firefighters attend, and make sure firefighters are paid appropriately to deal with that. So I think when we talk about understanding risks that are coming down the line, it was our union that sat in a room much like this in 1999 at the environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Select Committee that warned about cladding.
And yet the fire commissioner from London talks about cladding still being wrapped around some buildings and unsafe fire safety practices and failings in buildings that firefighters are having to deal with on a on a daily basis, and that is in all parts of the UK. So it's about learning those lessons and taking them forward and making sure there is justice for those affected by the Grenfell Tower fire.
So I think there are lessons still to be learnt around this. And I think one recommendation from the Grenfell Tower inquiry around the College of Fire and Rescue Service, which we may get into, I think is an opportunity actually, for the fire service to set national standards, to deliver a fire rescue service fit for the future, to be resilient, to respond to the incidents that firefighters attend, and make sure firefighters are paid appropriately to deal with that. So I think when we talk about understanding risks that are coming down the line, it was our union that sat in a room much like this in 1999 at the environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Select Committee that warned about cladding.
And yet the fire commissioner from London talks about cladding still being wrapped around some buildings and unsafe fire safety practices and failings in buildings that firefighters are having to deal with on a on a daily basis, and that is in all parts of the UK. So it's about learning those lessons and taking them forward and making sure there is justice for those affected by the Grenfell Tower fire.
12:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you. MPs are today going to be debating the building safety, alleviation of unsafe cladding, etc. Bill. And every now and again I've used the shorthand. It's the first time we're debating it today. Obviously that's to tackle unsafe cladding, particularly as we haven't made the progress we should have in the last ten years as a country. What amendments, if any, would you like to see in the bill?
12:01
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
I'll be honest, I'm probably not in a position to give you that specific level of detail. I can come back to you on that and give you an indication of which I think are the the strongest amendments to make in that kind of context. I suppose my only ask, though, would be to ensure that the remediation bill is, is is moved through a pace. You asked the previous panel around and time and when you would like to see cladding, unsafe cladding removed from every high rise building as defined. I think there was a commitment around 2029 for that to have taken place.
My view is we would want to accelerate that, but self-evidently, if we were assured that by 2029, all buildings across the across England were safe and remediated, then that would send a strong message to the victims and the survivors of Grenfell.
My view is we would want to accelerate that, but self-evidently, if we were assured that by 2029, all buildings across the across England were safe and remediated, then that would send a strong message to the victims and the survivors of Grenfell.
12:01
12:01
12:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And thank you very much for sort of offering to come back to me for us, if you do have anything, I suppose that turns the question around. Have the government, in drafting the bill, consulted you, the National Fire Chiefs Council or your respective other organisations on this bill before they published it?
12:01
12:01
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
That's my one point. I think the fact that the reports that we've seen and information we've had passed by us is it will take a decade for this remedial work to take place. And in that next decade, the shortages of firefighter numbers, the lack of resources available, we're going to be dealing with that threat and risk now. So I think it's we can all sit here and say we want it done quicker, and we want you to move as fast as possible. And I'm sure there will be speeches to that effect that we're that that's going to be done.
But the reality is it won't be done. And over the next decade, firefighters and members of the public are going to be put at risk because this work is not taking place as quickly as possible. So it's a known risk, and we need to make sure that we need to make sure that it's being dealt with.
But the reality is it won't be done. And over the next decade, firefighters and members of the public are going to be put at risk because this work is not taking place as quickly as possible. So it's a known risk, and we need to make sure that we need to make sure that it's being dealt with.
12:01
12:01
12:01
12:01
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Okay. I just wanted to write this to you, Wendy, under your LGA hat. So we've heard from the panel on the previous panel how the roles and responsibilities of the Fire and Rescue Service have changed. We asked in the last panel about the Civil Contingencies Act what changes we would like the Fire and Rescue Service would like to see, and I understand the previous panel was more about clarity. I just wanted to hear, particularly from the LGA specifically, if there's been any specific ask in terms of how that can change, particularly in terms of recognising the Fire and Rescue service.
12:01
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
So there there are a number of different ways to come at that. Those two those two questions. So roles and responsibilities have changed in effect by virtue of the fire service responding to changes in in conditions. And we're also now working on a, a fire sector review, of course, with looking at. Hang on. I'm oh, looking at roles and responsibilities and looking at what elements of that could be included in statutory responsibilities and particularly responsibilities for flooding, but also new technology responses. In terms of the Civil Contingencies Act. Again, we would be really interested in in pursuing with government, with partners, having discussions about what a whole society response would look like, what a whole society resilience would look like.
And we would see having partnerships and conversations with government, with the fire service and with local authorities at a range of levels being absolutely instrumental to making that move forward. I'm not sure if I've answered your question.
And we would see having partnerships and conversations with government, with the fire service and with local authorities at a range of levels being absolutely instrumental to making that move forward. I'm not sure if I've answered your question.
12:01
12:01
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you. I'm a couple of questions around standards and performance, probably starting with you, Steve. So you mentioned in your written submission to us that the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 obviously shifted and replaced national standards with locally agreed arrangements. You expressed concerns that that led to slower response times and basically a postcode lottery in the provision of fire services. Could you say a bit more about that and give us some examples of the variations that you think that has created?
12:01
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
Yeah, of course, there's been a huge fragmentation of the UK Fire and Rescue Service, and we often phrase it as a postcode lottery, which is very much what it is. Firefighters getting paid different amounts in different parts of the country, different training, different initial training competency. So that that exists. And I think the impact of not having national standards has meant that there is a a worsening of the response and our capability that we give to our communities and your constituents. And when you talk about figures, we now take three minutes on average longer to get to a primary fire dwelling fires than we did in the mid 1990s.
And that cuts across the board. And we've got a bit of an issue with how these how this data is collected. We the government Mhclg figures only report back on the first appliance getting an attendance. And we know that ordinarily that's for firefighters on the fire engine, which. South Korean levels of five. And that's what we campaigned towards. That's. We always have five firefighters on a fire engine when I joined the fire service. But also worse than that in some places, that first response that is recorded is by a small fire vehicle response. It's not necessarily a fire engine that can deal with the the issues that's facing them, dangerous issues and incidents that firefighters attend.
So we've seen an increase in that. We've seen an increase in demand for the Fire and rescue service over the last ten years. The risks are evolving, yet resources are diminishing. So the postcode lottery exists. It exists. One prime example of that is the wildfire PPE. The services that I've worked in Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire, we do not have lightweight PPE to attend to wildfires yet neighbouring brigades have managed to do that. And I think that comes to the point of the need for central government funding. In the past it was a 5050 split. It's some way off that nowadays, and county councils and other fire authorities are having to make tough, tough choices on what they invest their money in.
So I've attended incidents across the Thames Valley where different services respond with different kit, different training, different resources available, different response standards. And I think that's a question of what we want from the inspectorate, really. I think an inspector that can actually inspect national standards set by a College of Fire, for example, would be the way to start improving standards and not allow this continual slide that we've seen over the past 20 or so years.
And that cuts across the board. And we've got a bit of an issue with how these how this data is collected. We the government Mhclg figures only report back on the first appliance getting an attendance. And we know that ordinarily that's for firefighters on the fire engine, which. South Korean levels of five. And that's what we campaigned towards. That's. We always have five firefighters on a fire engine when I joined the fire service. But also worse than that in some places, that first response that is recorded is by a small fire vehicle response. It's not necessarily a fire engine that can deal with the the issues that's facing them, dangerous issues and incidents that firefighters attend.
So we've seen an increase in that. We've seen an increase in demand for the Fire and rescue service over the last ten years. The risks are evolving, yet resources are diminishing. So the postcode lottery exists. It exists. One prime example of that is the wildfire PPE. The services that I've worked in Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire, we do not have lightweight PPE to attend to wildfires yet neighbouring brigades have managed to do that. And I think that comes to the point of the need for central government funding. In the past it was a 5050 split. It's some way off that nowadays, and county councils and other fire authorities are having to make tough, tough choices on what they invest their money in.
So I've attended incidents across the Thames Valley where different services respond with different kit, different training, different resources available, different response standards. And I think that's a question of what we want from the inspectorate, really. I think an inspector that can actually inspect national standards set by a College of Fire, for example, would be the way to start improving standards and not allow this continual slide that we've seen over the past 20 or so years.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I sort of agree and disagree, so agree on some things. So on. There's not a national standard on response. They went a long time ago, but a lot of it is based on risk. That probably needs to be a bit more scientific in some places, because I think some of the standards of response are based on what the service had and has always had, and not so a bit more scientific terms of wider standards. There are a lot of standards that have really benefited the national standards. Fire Standards Code of Ethics is a classic, is read into the standards.
Culture has improved over in fire and rescue services. And I think in embedding that core code of ethics has been one of the reasons those standards have improved. So we look at standards. We are those standards in our characteristics are good. We inspect and they work pretty well. But I also agree with Steve that and probably everyone else on the panel, a College of fire is vitally needed. So in terms of a college like the college paramedics and they could set the standards for training as well, which, you know, National Council does their best to offer guidance.
But if they were mandatory standards for training, you'd avoid that. So yes and no. Steve, there are some standards that work very well, but they can be improved alongside a college of fire.
Culture has improved over in fire and rescue services. And I think in embedding that core code of ethics has been one of the reasons those standards have improved. So we look at standards. We are those standards in our characteristics are good. We inspect and they work pretty well. But I also agree with Steve that and probably everyone else on the panel, a College of fire is vitally needed. So in terms of a college like the college paramedics and they could set the standards for training as well, which, you know, National Council does their best to offer guidance.
But if they were mandatory standards for training, you'd avoid that. So yes and no. Steve, there are some standards that work very well, but they can be improved alongside a college of fire.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
All right. Thank you. Just to pick up that point about the College of Fire and Rescue to develop national standards. And we'd be really keen to hear the witnesses views on, you know, as you started off, Roy, what what sort of aspect? What sort of standards do you think that college should push nationally? Which elements should be set nationally? And are there standards you think are so important they should be mandatory as part of that? Who wants to come in?
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
If I may, I comment on the broad question. And in the first instance around standards, you know, Steve's quite right. Inconsistency has developed over the course of the last number of years as austerity kicked in, you know, we moved things to to more local determination and probably as a legitimizing some of the removal of some of the infrastructure that supports fire and rescue services to coordinate itself at a national scale. And as a result of that, we found local solutions to national problems. And we need to find my view is we need to find national solutions to local problems.
Then interpretation gets, you know, somewhat applied at a local level. So there is inconsistency in our standards that are applied in fire and rescue service, which which and Roy is quite right, the National Fire Chiefs Council, and, you know, as a convening body, seek to address and support fire and rescue services around securing that consistency, but that, you know, to, to reverse some of the, the impacts of austerity is probably the reason why the recommendations are there from from Grenfell in regards to a college of fire. The College of Fire gives us a legitimate way through which we can drive standards across the board, not, you know, singularly response standards.
And I may come back to that in a second, but competency standards and the like. So there's a multitude of areas where we think we need to be more consistent, and you become more consistent by setting a standard and then applying that standard back into the sector. We've done a lot of work and, you know, the Standards Board have really kind of strengthened the work that we do on a national level. You know, the HMI review those national standards to see whether they are applied into service. The the inspectors and the introduction inspectors has been something which had been, you know, fundamentally beneficial to the to the UK Fire and Rescue Service.
Since its introduction, I've seen fire and rescue services improve across the board, and that's evident in the work that Roy's alluded to and what he's seeing. But and there is a boat. But we need to see the College of Fire brought to fruition, because now it is coming to the point where we are talking about it. We have talked about it. We've gone out to public consultation in regards to its introduction, and then we move me to move away from a concept into something more of a reality. We know, again, given the kind of financial predicament that, you know, the government find itself in, it requires investments to, to, to deliver exactly what we know is required and have been saying is required for the UK Fire and Rescue Service, but we also need to understand its operating model, its governance, its functions and what standards can fit within it.
Now, a lot of that work has been done and now we need to move it on to the into the next level to to implementation. But it takes legislative change and legislative change and it needs financial investment. And that's something that is absolutely fundamental in shifting the UK Fire and Rescue Service significantly around its professionalism and standards that are required.
Then interpretation gets, you know, somewhat applied at a local level. So there is inconsistency in our standards that are applied in fire and rescue service, which which and Roy is quite right, the National Fire Chiefs Council, and, you know, as a convening body, seek to address and support fire and rescue services around securing that consistency, but that, you know, to, to reverse some of the, the impacts of austerity is probably the reason why the recommendations are there from from Grenfell in regards to a college of fire. The College of Fire gives us a legitimate way through which we can drive standards across the board, not, you know, singularly response standards.
And I may come back to that in a second, but competency standards and the like. So there's a multitude of areas where we think we need to be more consistent, and you become more consistent by setting a standard and then applying that standard back into the sector. We've done a lot of work and, you know, the Standards Board have really kind of strengthened the work that we do on a national level. You know, the HMI review those national standards to see whether they are applied into service. The the inspectors and the introduction inspectors has been something which had been, you know, fundamentally beneficial to the to the UK Fire and Rescue Service.
Since its introduction, I've seen fire and rescue services improve across the board, and that's evident in the work that Roy's alluded to and what he's seeing. But and there is a boat. But we need to see the College of Fire brought to fruition, because now it is coming to the point where we are talking about it. We have talked about it. We've gone out to public consultation in regards to its introduction, and then we move me to move away from a concept into something more of a reality. We know, again, given the kind of financial predicament that, you know, the government find itself in, it requires investments to, to, to deliver exactly what we know is required and have been saying is required for the UK Fire and Rescue Service, but we also need to understand its operating model, its governance, its functions and what standards can fit within it.
Now, a lot of that work has been done and now we need to move it on to the into the next level to to implementation. But it takes legislative change and legislative change and it needs financial investment. And that's something that is absolutely fundamental in shifting the UK Fire and Rescue Service significantly around its professionalism and standards that are required.
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Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Yeah, thanks a lot. Thank you for those answers. Just quickly, I wanted to ask about the government obviously embarking on reforms, reforms for devolving more power to mayors and reorganising local government and realigning public services. And what kind of potential benefits or risks and or risks that you would see for the fire and rescue services in those reforms.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Did you? Yeah, I there it's again, it's a it's a good question. It's a tricky question. So we already have a number of different models for governance, all working towards the the same standards, hopefully, but across counties, across standalone fire services and with P, FCS and, and also deputy mayor models. And I think that the risk is one either that we add yet another model into what's already a complex equation, or that we decide to create something that is more uniform when actually the models that are in existence, whether it's county standalone or work in their context.
And I think that that really comes down to this whole question about risk, local assessing local risk and fire services. Doing that through their CRM. P is absolutely critical to understanding how communities are best served, and having a broad brush stroke model that goes across the whole piece risks missing that. And at the same time, I, you know, I do understand that there may be a real interest in having something that is more uniform. Uniform is not necessarily better in terms of dressing local risk. There has to be that iteration between the two. So from an LGA perspective, we're interested in having those conversations.
We're interested in where government is going with that, but we've absolutely got to make sure that fire has a seat at the table and having those conversations. So to give the example of of East Sussex, West Sussex moving towards a mayoralty, our fire service had to invite themselves along to one of those first meetings of the Sbsa. And that's fine. Now that's that's been done. But that needed to have been there, needed to be a little bit more foresight about that.
And I think that that really comes down to this whole question about risk, local assessing local risk and fire services. Doing that through their CRM. P is absolutely critical to understanding how communities are best served, and having a broad brush stroke model that goes across the whole piece risks missing that. And at the same time, I, you know, I do understand that there may be a real interest in having something that is more uniform. Uniform is not necessarily better in terms of dressing local risk. There has to be that iteration between the two. So from an LGA perspective, we're interested in having those conversations.
We're interested in where government is going with that, but we've absolutely got to make sure that fire has a seat at the table and having those conversations. So to give the example of of East Sussex, West Sussex moving towards a mayoralty, our fire service had to invite themselves along to one of those first meetings of the Sbsa. And that's fine. Now that's that's been done. But that needed to have been there, needed to be a little bit more foresight about that.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
So I think, I think certainty for fire services, they were they were an afterthought. And that's happened every time we expect a service. They're not quite sure Sussex is quite settled compared to some areas. If you go to Northamptonshire, you go to a which is a police, fire and crime Commissioner at the moment who his term is ending, but there's no certainty about where that fire service will end up in terms of governance and whether the mayor, when the mayors are coming in, when they're not, when strategic authority. So I think certainty for fire services at the moment, with a bit of resource to help them change, would really benefit everyone.
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Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
Yeah. I think just to say that we're welcoming the discussion around devolution and what that brings to the Fire and rescue service, I would say, is that we want to make sure that there's maximum democracy and democratic scrutiny. And I think as politicians and you would all want that. And I think our fear is that we lose some of that. So we have got the mayor of London, Greater Manchester, York and North Yorkshire that directly manage fire and rescue services and just a point around PFC. And we welcome the move from the government to abolish those.
Because what we have seen in the previous government, in a White Paper in 2022 , was what we and our members felt as firefighters. We felt it was an alignment of us and the police service. And I think we're always proud as firefighters that when we turn up at incidents, people like to see us. That's not always the case for the police and we're humanitarian service. And I think that allows us to do a wide range of activities. And with lots of discussion today about what more the Fire and Rescue Service could do. So keeping that separate to the police, I think, is an important point to make.
But I think it's around for us. It's about making sure that there is democratic scrutiny of people that are making decisions for the fire and rescue service, around budgets, around cuts, because if we didn't have that this year, I think we would have seen closures of fire stations, less fire engines, and we'd probably be talking about an even greater risk that communities face, communities that you all represent.
Because what we have seen in the previous government, in a White Paper in 2022 , was what we and our members felt as firefighters. We felt it was an alignment of us and the police service. And I think we're always proud as firefighters that when we turn up at incidents, people like to see us. That's not always the case for the police and we're humanitarian service. And I think that allows us to do a wide range of activities. And with lots of discussion today about what more the Fire and Rescue Service could do. So keeping that separate to the police, I think, is an important point to make.
But I think it's around for us. It's about making sure that there is democratic scrutiny of people that are making decisions for the fire and rescue service, around budgets, around cuts, because if we didn't have that this year, I think we would have seen closures of fire stations, less fire engines, and we'd probably be talking about an even greater risk that communities face, communities that you all represent.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
If I may just very briefly just, you know, Roy's alluded to a certainty, and sometimes it has felt like we are a bit of an afterthought, fire and rescue around kind of governance and the arrangements that are put in place. And, you know, and, and Wendy's, you know, alluded to the number of governance models that we've got in place, you know, so it makes no sense to me to be fair. And we need some level of kind of consistency and how far and rescue services are governed and how they are made accountable to the people that they serve.
And, and there's been kind of commitments around reviewing the operating models. We know mayoral authority, coterminous city is really important in regards to how the fire and rescue service functions. Coterminous with who, I suppose is the card. The question, you look at it from a mayoral authority point of view, and I suppose what we want is someone to kind of make that commitment. This is what the governance looks like, and this is where you sit within it, rather than being multiple different ways in which that is discharged. And, and when I talk about coterminous City, I do talk about coterminous from a mayoral authority point of view, because I think that strengthens the work that we do around resilience.
And, and when we look at how the fire rescue service kind of can support the, the national resilience response through local resilience forums, I think that's through a male authority.
And, and there's been kind of commitments around reviewing the operating models. We know mayoral authority, coterminous city is really important in regards to how the fire and rescue service functions. Coterminous with who, I suppose is the card. The question, you look at it from a mayoral authority point of view, and I suppose what we want is someone to kind of make that commitment. This is what the governance looks like, and this is where you sit within it, rather than being multiple different ways in which that is discharged. And, and when I talk about coterminous City, I do talk about coterminous from a mayoral authority point of view, because I think that strengthens the work that we do around resilience.
And, and when we look at how the fire rescue service kind of can support the, the national resilience response through local resilience forums, I think that's through a male authority.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
I'm so sorry. If I could just add on that with the importance of democratic scrutiny, one of the one of the key points about the fire, about the College of Fire and Rescue is that that will provide that opportunity to create a clear leadership programme. And one of the things that's come up a number of times is the importance of the the international research that's been done, making sure that that international research is shared. So you've got that golden thread of research running through the fire and rescue, but also for fire authorities. We need to make sure that fire authorities, people working in that democratic scrutiny realm have also got that training and resource to be able to understand what it is exactly that they are scrutinising.
So the LGA is working very hard to ensure that that is in place for anybody who's on a fire authority, anybody who is in local government, regardless of which which format, that's that's in. So we do have that in place. We could do with more of it. It would be fantastic to link in with the College of Fire and Rescue so that that happens across the piece. Thank you.
So the LGA is working very hard to ensure that that is in place for anybody who's on a fire authority, anybody who is in local government, regardless of which which format, that's that's in. So we do have that in place. We could do with more of it. It would be fantastic to link in with the College of Fire and Rescue so that that happens across the piece. Thank you.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you. Just one final question, which I know we've gone over time is just directed at Roy. The Inspectorate did an annual assessment just recently which demonstrated more needs to be done in terms of equalities. You may remember in May 2024, the Home Affairs Committee did a report into the fire authority. I know that a lot of work has been done over the years, so concerns were raised about homophobia and racism. Just wanted to understand a bit why the inspectorate said that and what they feel needs to be done further in this space.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
So we've issued well, I personally issued two reports. One reports, one on value and culture, one on misconduct and discipline in the service. And we did find this was only back in 2023 that there was a lot that needed to be done. The code of ethics hadn't been embedded. Some of the behaviours we found, particularly on watches, wasn't appropriate to the fire services public service. There was some lack of understanding of why diversity, equality, inclusion was important and certainly positive action. What I'm really pleased to say, really good leadership from people you know, everyone along here LGAN FCC Fire Brigades Union leadership in fire service themselves, we've seen some significant improvement.
And what's really pleasing about this round is just how embedded that code of ethics is, how we've seen behaviour start to change. It's not it's not everywhere. It's the fire service is saying policing don't represent their local communities as much as they should. But there's great effort to move that way. People can now have difficult conversations more often, which is often the start of reducing poor behaviour. The culture is more open. We're seeing better leadership in terms of communication and chief fire officers being seen. Again, it's not everywhere. But if you even three years on from what we I reported in 23 to 26, we've seen more work to do.
Always is in this area. But we have seen those improvements.
And what's really pleasing about this round is just how embedded that code of ethics is, how we've seen behaviour start to change. It's not it's not everywhere. It's the fire service is saying policing don't represent their local communities as much as they should. But there's great effort to move that way. People can now have difficult conversations more often, which is often the start of reducing poor behaviour. The culture is more open. We're seeing better leadership in terms of communication and chief fire officers being seen. Again, it's not everywhere. But if you even three years on from what we I reported in 23 to 26, we've seen more work to do.
Always is in this area. But we have seen those improvements.
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Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
I take one point slightly separate is just to say, I think there has been an improvement since 2024 from the government in Westminster. The creation of the Ministerial Advisory group, I think, was an important step to bring key stakeholders within the fire sector together to discuss the ongoing issues. And just to make one point, I think, to encompass everything that everyone has made today us, the Fire Brigades Union, the employers have embarked on an ambitious joint agenda about what the role of a firefighter looks like, and we're making gains and great progress in that it does come back to funding and investment to do that, to deal with the the resilience issue that this country faces, and to deal with the threats and risks that this country faces.
So I think there is some positives that are coming. I certainly think, with the Prime Minister and the announcements last week with the current Secretary of State, Angela Rayner, I think we've got an opportunity, and I do believe it is an opportunity over the next year or so to really make the fundamental changes, to fix and reverse some of the years that has been talked about in the last ten, 15 years, where the fire service has taken a downward trajectory to try and fix some of that.
So I think there is some positives that are coming. I certainly think, with the Prime Minister and the announcements last week with the current Secretary of State, Angela Rayner, I think we've got an opportunity, and I do believe it is an opportunity over the next year or so to really make the fundamental changes, to fix and reverse some of the years that has been talked about in the last ten, 15 years, where the fire service has taken a downward trajectory to try and fix some of that.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I say thank you for your time, really. And I guess Steve gave us a call to action in terms of democratic scrutiny, which is essentially what we're trying to do. Roy, you mentioned earlier that you weren't consulted with the Wildfires Summit in terms of what the government's doing. So we will feed back making sure that you are involved properly in the process, because I do think you have a lot to feed in in terms of your expertise. As I said to the previous panel, we will be looking to make recommendations to the government, particularly in some of the stuff that is impacting the Fire and Rescue Service.
So there may be some follow up actions after this meeting. Just want to say, on behalf of my colleagues, I found this really insightful and I really appreciate your time and what you're doing to keep us safe. So thank you.
So there may be some follow up actions after this meeting. Just want to say, on behalf of my colleagues, I found this really insightful and I really appreciate your time and what you're doing to keep us safe. So thank you.