Westminster Hall
Tuesday 13th October 2026
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09:30
09:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you, Mr. Turner. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. And I beg to move that this House has considered the future of the UK coach industry. A couple of years ago, I got invited to speak at the Coach Operators Conference, and being a reasonably diligent MP ahead of that, I thought I'd check how many mentions of coach there had been in that parliamentary session, and I have to say it came back rather more than I was expecting.
But then I delved a little deeper, and I found that there were an awful lot of references to cricket coaches, football coaches, basketball coaches and various things that members wishes. Wish to drive a horse and coaches through Parliament has been talking about coaches for almost as long as they have existed. Back in the 1790s, Parliament was debating people who leapt onto stagecoaches, and then just before they got to the tollgate, they all jumped off, only to get on again on the other side of the toll gate, which seems to be kind of the the short ticketing of the past.
In 1839 there was a mention of Dunstable when it comes to coaches, because a coach proprietor called Mr. Johnstone from Dunstable was really, really worried about taxation on stagecoaches and also about this competition from these newfangled railways. And I have to report that, unfortunately, the Chancellor was not very sympathetic to the plight of stagecoaches, and I very much hope that the minister today will be much more sympathetic to the modern coach industry.
Coaches have been described to me by many in the industry as a social glue. They're certainly not niche. We see them absolutely all around us. They're flexible, affordable and sustainable transport for millions and millions of people. They take 600,000 children to school every day. 1 million people take coach trips and tours in the UK each year.
But then I delved a little deeper, and I found that there were an awful lot of references to cricket coaches, football coaches, basketball coaches and various things that members wishes. Wish to drive a horse and coaches through Parliament has been talking about coaches for almost as long as they have existed. Back in the 1790s, Parliament was debating people who leapt onto stagecoaches, and then just before they got to the tollgate, they all jumped off, only to get on again on the other side of the toll gate, which seems to be kind of the the short ticketing of the past.
In 1839 there was a mention of Dunstable when it comes to coaches, because a coach proprietor called Mr. Johnstone from Dunstable was really, really worried about taxation on stagecoaches and also about this competition from these newfangled railways. And I have to report that, unfortunately, the Chancellor was not very sympathetic to the plight of stagecoaches, and I very much hope that the minister today will be much more sympathetic to the modern coach industry.
Coaches have been described to me by many in the industry as a social glue. They're certainly not niche. We see them absolutely all around us. They're flexible, affordable and sustainable transport for millions and millions of people. They take 600,000 children to school every day. 1 million people take coach trips and tours in the UK each year.
09:32
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think the honourable gentleman makes a fantastic point. Cambridge along the backs is often full up of coaches. I do think it's important when talking to residents to get across that actually one big coach stops a lot of small cars. So well, we do need more more coach parking spaces. I do think it's important to think about the environmental benefits that a coach brings, as well as that they take people to concerts and football matches.
It's one of the reasons that Wembley is home to Europe's largest coach park. They do rail replacement also. What's important about them is they literally get you to the door of the place that you want to go to. So a railway station might leave you a little bit away. But if you're trying to get to Alton Towers or a National Trust property, you absolutely get to the door.
It's one of the reasons that Wembley is home to Europe's largest coach park. They do rail replacement also. What's important about them is they literally get you to the door of the place that you want to go to. So a railway station might leave you a little bit away. But if you're trying to get to Alton Towers or a National Trust property, you absolutely get to the door.
09:33
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
There's much more than what the honourable lady says. It takes my Orange Lodge in Northern Ireland to the 12th of July period. It takes me back to the period as well. And The Apprentice Boys. So the coaches do a whole lot more of what Donald says. And Northern Ireland, they're the glue that keeps the community going. It's the glue that keeps our orange lodges in order. Thank you.
09:33
09:33
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you, Mr. Turner. Indeed. Coaches can be booked by people to get you literally anywhere that you want to go. They're also really, really important for growth, which is a defining mission of of governments of all stripes. £17 billion the coach industry brings to the UK economy. When I was pitching for this debate to the backbench Business Committee, I compared it to the fishing industry, which is about £1 billion, and said that coaches should have as many debates as as fish do in this place.
They're also really, really easy to deploy. You don't need to spend years and years building a railway tracks, for example. But despite all of this, coaches I think remain underappreciated. And why? Well, surveys show that about a third of people think that coaches are uncomfortable and outdated and infrequent. But I think that that's actually an outdated view. When you go on coaches, you actually find that they're really rather comfortable and modern and can often get you to precisely where you want to go.
I think one of the reasons is actually that they are family businesses, and they're not necessarily employing PR folk to talk to us here to get across the messages that they need to. And also, I think it's down to us MPs. Journalists don't often use coaches in the way that we use trains. And in fact, there's a good statistic that says that 97% of people have never heard a politician talk about coaches. So I hope they're all tuning in today and we can write that wrong.
On
They're also really, really easy to deploy. You don't need to spend years and years building a railway tracks, for example. But despite all of this, coaches I think remain underappreciated. And why? Well, surveys show that about a third of people think that coaches are uncomfortable and outdated and infrequent. But I think that that's actually an outdated view. When you go on coaches, you actually find that they're really rather comfortable and modern and can often get you to precisely where you want to go.
I think one of the reasons is actually that they are family businesses, and they're not necessarily employing PR folk to talk to us here to get across the messages that they need to. And also, I think it's down to us MPs. Journalists don't often use coaches in the way that we use trains. And in fact, there's a good statistic that says that 97% of people have never heard a politician talk about coaches. So I hope they're all tuning in today and we can write that wrong.
On
09:35
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
that point. I'm going to talk about coaches. Fantastic. The honourable lady mentions local businesses and they include businesses like Eastbourne Coaches and Lynn's Travel in Eastbourne. But does she also agree that there is a role for those businesses and big business like National Express to bring their coaches to Eastbourne, especially in light of the terrible railways that we're experiencing down in our patch.
09:35
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I thank the honourable gentleman for that point. Coaches have the potential to bring people to all kinds of tourist destinations and to fantastic seaside areas. So I think we should appreciate them for that. One thing within the department is that there are specific teams for bus and rail, but not a specific coach team. And I wondered whether the minister might be willing to comment on that. And on that theme, I think one of the issues that the coach sector has is that it gets lumped together with other sectors, most noticeably bus, but also HGV.
So having waxed lyrical about coaches, my next question is what is a coach? Which might seem a bit odd at this stage. Because I think that we all instinctively and intuitively know what a coach is. You climb up into it, the space for luggage underneath you sit on it. There's probably a seat belt and it takes you a reasonable distance. However, in law it is a bit more of a muddle than that.
The Dvsa, when granting an operator's licence to a coach, mixes coaches and buses entirely together. So you can't specifically count coaches. The DFT, when it comes to accessibility rules, says that a coach is something that you're sitting down in and there's no standing passengers. A coach can even become a bus as it's driving along. So it can start being regulated as a coach. And then because it drops off and picks up some passengers with 15 mile gaps between them, for that little bit of the route, it becomes a bus, and then it turns back into a coach again, magically on the roof route.
And when I have asked parliamentary questions on this subject, ministers cannot really reliably tell me how many coaches there are. And I don't think it should be down to enthusiasts to be counting that now, as well as not being able to count coaches. We can't coach count coach drivers either. It's the same issue. So standard occupational classification data that the ONS use, again, put bus and coach drivers together. And when I was looking at that data set, I did the same thing as I did with Hansard before.
And I did a keyword search to find out where coach drivers appeared. And they were indeed in with with bus drivers. And then I looked again at all those sport coaches, and they have got their own subcategories of cricket coaches and football coaches and the like. So why can we not do the same for coach drivers? Because I believe that if we had better data, we would ultimately be making better policy. And while we're on the subject of drivers, we need more of them.
There are around 5000 to 10,000 vacancies in the sector at the moment, and about a quarter of coach drivers are over the age of 60. So it's a challenge that's likely to get worse. What we need is a plan where we can get young drivers straight from school into the driver's seat. Now I know back in 2024, there was a consultation on one of the issues around young drivers. So young drivers, the mileage that they do is limited by law at the moment.
So if, for example, you were starting off from ten Downing Street and driving north to try and get to Downing Street north, you would only get as far as about Milton Keynes, and then you would have to stop if you were a young driver. And I know the minister has said before that he is looking at the results of that consultation and assessing proposals, and I wonder whether he might be able to give us some kind of timeline today as to when we might hear more about that.
Well, he's at it. Could he also talk to his colleagues in the Department for education? I did receive yesterday a letter from a minister about the issue of skills boot camps, but at the moment, well, HGV drivers can utilise the good funding available in skills boot camps. The same is not true for coach drivers. And while we're talking about lumping things together, it also happens on the path to net zero.
Now in net zero, rather than being lumped in normally with buses, they're lumped in with HGV vehicles. But actually the requirements can be quite different. So for example, you stop at a motorway service station. If you're an HGV lorry driver, you park, you plug in and away you go. If you're a coach driver, you've got 50 odd passengers to deal with, all of whom need to be got safely off your coach and into the motorway service station to buy some overpriced sandwiches.
So their requirements are very different. Now, I know that a zero emission HGV and coach infrastructure strategy is due soon. And can the Minister reassure me that adequate attention will be given to the specific challenges of coaches? Because I know also when there was a recent pilot programme to install charging infrastructure and that was shared between trucks and HGVs and coaches, it turned out that less than 3% of funding in that pilot programme actually went to the coach sector.
They've also been excluded from the van and truck zero emission grant because they're not a van and truck, they're a coach and they'll be excluded from zebra, the bus scheme because they're not a bus. And in the issues around net zero, we really do need more support for the industry. It's a hard to decarbonise industry because coaches, by their nature, go to lots of different places and don't necessarily have predictable routes. And at the moment, 75% of operators say that they don't have any plans for buying net zero vehicles.
So can the minister commit to a long term roadmap so that the coach industry knows where it's going? And also comment on whether the low carbon fuel strategy, which was consulted in back in 2022 and some in the industry are still awaiting the outcomes of whether that's kind of been lost in the mists of time, and we should be awaiting something else, or whether we are going to get some results from that. In terms of fuel costs, that is one of the issues that so many in the industry are talking about at the moment, because of Trump's ill thought out war in Iran, we have seen diesel prices absolutely rocket up by 46% since February, and that is having a real, real impact on operators up and down the country.
And I'm sure we'll hear some examples after I have finished speaking. I know that the minister can't comment on what's likely to be in the budget, but would he be willing to talk to some of his Treasury colleagues ahead of that to try and make the case for the coach industry?
So having waxed lyrical about coaches, my next question is what is a coach? Which might seem a bit odd at this stage. Because I think that we all instinctively and intuitively know what a coach is. You climb up into it, the space for luggage underneath you sit on it. There's probably a seat belt and it takes you a reasonable distance. However, in law it is a bit more of a muddle than that.
The Dvsa, when granting an operator's licence to a coach, mixes coaches and buses entirely together. So you can't specifically count coaches. The DFT, when it comes to accessibility rules, says that a coach is something that you're sitting down in and there's no standing passengers. A coach can even become a bus as it's driving along. So it can start being regulated as a coach. And then because it drops off and picks up some passengers with 15 mile gaps between them, for that little bit of the route, it becomes a bus, and then it turns back into a coach again, magically on the roof route.
And when I have asked parliamentary questions on this subject, ministers cannot really reliably tell me how many coaches there are. And I don't think it should be down to enthusiasts to be counting that now, as well as not being able to count coaches. We can't coach count coach drivers either. It's the same issue. So standard occupational classification data that the ONS use, again, put bus and coach drivers together. And when I was looking at that data set, I did the same thing as I did with Hansard before.
And I did a keyword search to find out where coach drivers appeared. And they were indeed in with with bus drivers. And then I looked again at all those sport coaches, and they have got their own subcategories of cricket coaches and football coaches and the like. So why can we not do the same for coach drivers? Because I believe that if we had better data, we would ultimately be making better policy. And while we're on the subject of drivers, we need more of them.
There are around 5000 to 10,000 vacancies in the sector at the moment, and about a quarter of coach drivers are over the age of 60. So it's a challenge that's likely to get worse. What we need is a plan where we can get young drivers straight from school into the driver's seat. Now I know back in 2024, there was a consultation on one of the issues around young drivers. So young drivers, the mileage that they do is limited by law at the moment.
So if, for example, you were starting off from ten Downing Street and driving north to try and get to Downing Street north, you would only get as far as about Milton Keynes, and then you would have to stop if you were a young driver. And I know the minister has said before that he is looking at the results of that consultation and assessing proposals, and I wonder whether he might be able to give us some kind of timeline today as to when we might hear more about that.
Well, he's at it. Could he also talk to his colleagues in the Department for education? I did receive yesterday a letter from a minister about the issue of skills boot camps, but at the moment, well, HGV drivers can utilise the good funding available in skills boot camps. The same is not true for coach drivers. And while we're talking about lumping things together, it also happens on the path to net zero.
Now in net zero, rather than being lumped in normally with buses, they're lumped in with HGV vehicles. But actually the requirements can be quite different. So for example, you stop at a motorway service station. If you're an HGV lorry driver, you park, you plug in and away you go. If you're a coach driver, you've got 50 odd passengers to deal with, all of whom need to be got safely off your coach and into the motorway service station to buy some overpriced sandwiches.
So their requirements are very different. Now, I know that a zero emission HGV and coach infrastructure strategy is due soon. And can the Minister reassure me that adequate attention will be given to the specific challenges of coaches? Because I know also when there was a recent pilot programme to install charging infrastructure and that was shared between trucks and HGVs and coaches, it turned out that less than 3% of funding in that pilot programme actually went to the coach sector.
They've also been excluded from the van and truck zero emission grant because they're not a van and truck, they're a coach and they'll be excluded from zebra, the bus scheme because they're not a bus. And in the issues around net zero, we really do need more support for the industry. It's a hard to decarbonise industry because coaches, by their nature, go to lots of different places and don't necessarily have predictable routes. And at the moment, 75% of operators say that they don't have any plans for buying net zero vehicles.
So can the minister commit to a long term roadmap so that the coach industry knows where it's going? And also comment on whether the low carbon fuel strategy, which was consulted in back in 2022 and some in the industry are still awaiting the outcomes of whether that's kind of been lost in the mists of time, and we should be awaiting something else, or whether we are going to get some results from that. In terms of fuel costs, that is one of the issues that so many in the industry are talking about at the moment, because of Trump's ill thought out war in Iran, we have seen diesel prices absolutely rocket up by 46% since February, and that is having a real, real impact on operators up and down the country.
And I'm sure we'll hear some examples after I have finished speaking. I know that the minister can't comment on what's likely to be in the budget, but would he be willing to talk to some of his Treasury colleagues ahead of that to try and make the case for the coach industry?
09:42
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I congratulate her on the fantastic speech and for emphasising the importance of coach operators across the country and and in making that case to the Treasury. Does she agree that the Minister might point out that in many rural areas, local coach operators also serve as the backbone of school transport systems, without which the school transport system, quite frankly, would collapse? Yes, absolutely. That
09:43
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
is a point well made. And the issue is that coach operators are normally selling tickets in advance, whether that's for tours around the country, whereby they print their brochures perhaps a year in advance, that get them through letterboxes and half of their places on those tours are filled up by Christmas. Or, as the honourable gentleman says, school transport, where they've bid for a contract, they've got it from the local authority, and they thought that fuel would be a different price.
And indeed, the Body Coach UK is warning that there is the possibility that without help, some school children could be left stranded. So I do hope that the minister will look into that. This debate was about the future of the coach industry, and I think that the coach industry has got a bright future. We have got a brand new trade body coach. UK coaches were mentioned in the government's better connected strategy, which many people in the industry were very enthused and excited about.
I think as we pursue closer relationships with our European partners and neighbors, that might sort out some of the issues that coach drivers doing international travel face at the border.
And indeed, the Body Coach UK is warning that there is the possibility that without help, some school children could be left stranded. So I do hope that the minister will look into that. This debate was about the future of the coach industry, and I think that the coach industry has got a bright future. We have got a brand new trade body coach. UK coaches were mentioned in the government's better connected strategy, which many people in the industry were very enthused and excited about.
I think as we pursue closer relationships with our European partners and neighbors, that might sort out some of the issues that coach drivers doing international travel face at the border.
09:44
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
You make a bold case and a welcome one, and I congratulate her on bringing this matter to the House. She mentioned the issue of recruitment, and she will know that two of the barriers to recruitment are relate to the restrictions on young people driving. Gary and Michael Salter from Long Sutton in my constituency are on GDS travel. Tell me that young drivers can't start their off road and theory training until they've got a provisional licence.
That seems to be a nonsense. And secondly, the young drivers are restricted to where and how far they can drive. Now, those two changes would attract more young people into the industry and deal with some of the issues that she's raised.
That seems to be a nonsense. And secondly, the young drivers are restricted to where and how far they can drive. Now, those two changes would attract more young people into the industry and deal with some of the issues that she's raised.
09:45
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The honourable gentleman makes a good point, which is why I'm very keen to hear from the Minister as to when we might hear back in terms of the consultation that they have been undertaking. I think in order to make sure that the coach industry succeeds as much as possible in the future, is that we need to make sure that as an industry, that they are visible and that in government, they get a real focus on them.
That can be big things like a net zero strategy. And it can also be little things just to make coach operators lives a bit easier. I cannot understand why a quarter of the way into the 21st century, you still have to display a paper disc on your windscreen with your operator's licence. When we've got rid of all of that kind of thing for cars years and years ago. So those kind of little bureaucratic things that we might be able to sort out.
I've also been bothering the noble Lord Hendy about the new GBR app. When you go on to train line at the moment and other apps are available, you can toggle between train and coach, and I really think that the new GBR app ought to be able to do the same thing. If we believe in an integrated transport system and in giving people choice, which is often a much more affordable if you choose to go by coach, I think coaches are unique and vital.
I think we should celebrate them for what they are, not what they share with other transport bodies. I am absolutely convinced that they will continue to adapt as we move forward into the future. And on that note, I would like to wish everybody a happy National Coach Week.
That can be big things like a net zero strategy. And it can also be little things just to make coach operators lives a bit easier. I cannot understand why a quarter of the way into the 21st century, you still have to display a paper disc on your windscreen with your operator's licence. When we've got rid of all of that kind of thing for cars years and years ago. So those kind of little bureaucratic things that we might be able to sort out.
I've also been bothering the noble Lord Hendy about the new GBR app. When you go on to train line at the moment and other apps are available, you can toggle between train and coach, and I really think that the new GBR app ought to be able to do the same thing. If we believe in an integrated transport system and in giving people choice, which is often a much more affordable if you choose to go by coach, I think coaches are unique and vital.
I think we should celebrate them for what they are, not what they share with other transport bodies. I am absolutely convinced that they will continue to adapt as we move forward into the future. And on that note, I would like to wish everybody a happy National Coach Week.
09:46
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I remind members that there should Bob, if they wish to speak in the debate, because the results of interest and lots of people want to speak. I'm going to impose an informal time limit of four minutes. The question is that this House has considered the future of the UK coach industry. I call Jim Shannon.
09:47
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you very much. Always a pleasure to be called and to be called first is almost unique. Thank you very much. Using the chamber. It's always last, but the last shall be first. The first will be last. So in this case, I'm well ahead. Thank you so much. Can I thank the honourable lady for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for raising the issue of the coach sector? I wish to make some comments about it.
I have a two very significant coach companies in my. And I'm going to speak about them and what they do and what it means to the community around . Across the United Kingdom. Around some 2500 coach operators have faced a 46% increase in diesel prices since February this year. And for many industries, the question is no longer how to turn a profit, but how to stay afloat. 38% of companies say they are likely to withdraw from home to school transport contracts due to these rising operating costs, which have not been matched by the rates that they receive.
And aware that my colleague to the right hand side will will give some comments and I'm looking forward to hearing that. But the ones that I am talking to, they tell me that they're under pressure to try and deliver a contract, which has been agreed as diesel prices go through the roof, the pressures today are immense. The consequences of this will be deeply felt by families, by parents who face additional stress and expense of finding alternative arrangements, in particular those in rural community where I live, the buses and the coaches in particular as a contract.
And they some of the contracts are under incredible pressure. This clearly demonstrates that the challenges facing coach services will extend beyond the industry itself, and nobody has referred to that incredibly well. Fuel costs, of course, are not the only challenge. The proportion of unfilled coach driver positions stands at some 12.4%. Again, none of that is referred to that. One of the community groups in my constituency have done some excellent work in relation to introducing some of the.
Mostly men. Very rarely is there a woman that takes on the job and this and that capacity of man, but that the opportunity to to do that is there and is encouraged by them. We must look again at scrapping the outdated restrictions on younger coach drivers, for instance. Mr. chairman qualified 18 and 19 year olds can already drive without the same restrictions that applied to younger drivers. It is difficult to justify maintaining these restrictions when coach operators are facing a national recruitment shortage, combined with an ageing workforce.
These restrictions are making the storage shortage even worse. We must support the economic contributions of our coaches. The sector supports some 81,000 jobs, generates £6.4 billion in economic value as a result, allowing the failure of our coach services will put people out of work and undermine local economy. Very happy to give way.
I have a two very significant coach companies in my. And I'm going to speak about them and what they do and what it means to the community around . Across the United Kingdom. Around some 2500 coach operators have faced a 46% increase in diesel prices since February this year. And for many industries, the question is no longer how to turn a profit, but how to stay afloat. 38% of companies say they are likely to withdraw from home to school transport contracts due to these rising operating costs, which have not been matched by the rates that they receive.
And aware that my colleague to the right hand side will will give some comments and I'm looking forward to hearing that. But the ones that I am talking to, they tell me that they're under pressure to try and deliver a contract, which has been agreed as diesel prices go through the roof, the pressures today are immense. The consequences of this will be deeply felt by families, by parents who face additional stress and expense of finding alternative arrangements, in particular those in rural community where I live, the buses and the coaches in particular as a contract.
And they some of the contracts are under incredible pressure. This clearly demonstrates that the challenges facing coach services will extend beyond the industry itself, and nobody has referred to that incredibly well. Fuel costs, of course, are not the only challenge. The proportion of unfilled coach driver positions stands at some 12.4%. Again, none of that is referred to that. One of the community groups in my constituency have done some excellent work in relation to introducing some of the.
Mostly men. Very rarely is there a woman that takes on the job and this and that capacity of man, but that the opportunity to to do that is there and is encouraged by them. We must look again at scrapping the outdated restrictions on younger coach drivers, for instance. Mr. chairman qualified 18 and 19 year olds can already drive without the same restrictions that applied to younger drivers. It is difficult to justify maintaining these restrictions when coach operators are facing a national recruitment shortage, combined with an ageing workforce.
These restrictions are making the storage shortage even worse. We must support the economic contributions of our coaches. The sector supports some 81,000 jobs, generates £6.4 billion in economic value as a result, allowing the failure of our coach services will put people out of work and undermine local economy. Very happy to give way.
09:50
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I thank the honourable member for giving way. Would he agree with me that we need greater recognition of excellent companies such as Hutchinson Engineering locally in Northern Ireland and Wrightbus that have a fantastic exhibition that it goes on frequently to demonstrate their expertise, and we need more recognition and more support of those coachbuilders.
09:50
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I thank my friend and colleague for that intervention, and he's absolutely right and it's brilliant to see a local. I mentioned the two companies in particular. The coach connections in Portaferry doing so well from their hub here in my constituency. Adrian and the team do a fantastic job keeping our communities, schools and sports teams moving safely and reliably right across the country, managing a top class fleet alongside a dedicated team of over 15 local staff is no small feat.
They're running a brilliant line up of vehicles from highly accessible 19 to 33 seater mini coaches, perfect for community groups right up to the flagship 53 seater Mercedes Benz Turismo luxury tri axle coaches. Now that's not a good encouragement for my my constituency business. I don't know what it is saying. Their expansion this year, alongside taking on the Volvo and Plaxton touring vehicles from Mcavoy's, which they bought over, is a massive testament to their hard work and dedication.
We are incredibly lucky to have such a brilliant and dependable service operating right on our doorstep. Of course, the strength of our local transport network doesn't stop there. We also have a fantastic team at Giles Tours. Since 1981, Neil, Patricia and and their award winning family business have been a household name for a quality travel. They're wonderful drivers. Josh, Dave and Andrew give you three examples. Constantly go the extra mile to look after passengers with unmatched hospitality, whether it's an executive private hire or their famous luxury coach.
Holidays across the United Kingdom, Ireland and Europe. They provide a first class service that makes the entire constituency Langford area proud. I'm very proud to be their MP and to have companies like that that encourage us. Our local travel needs are in the safest hands possible. TransLink. Of course, the the bus group are under considerable financial pressure, some 46.6 million loss in the upcoming years. What they're saying. But they have a some 160 coaches in Northern Ireland.
And I'm going to conclude. So yeah, we.
They're running a brilliant line up of vehicles from highly accessible 19 to 33 seater mini coaches, perfect for community groups right up to the flagship 53 seater Mercedes Benz Turismo luxury tri axle coaches. Now that's not a good encouragement for my my constituency business. I don't know what it is saying. Their expansion this year, alongside taking on the Volvo and Plaxton touring vehicles from Mcavoy's, which they bought over, is a massive testament to their hard work and dedication.
We are incredibly lucky to have such a brilliant and dependable service operating right on our doorstep. Of course, the strength of our local transport network doesn't stop there. We also have a fantastic team at Giles Tours. Since 1981, Neil, Patricia and and their award winning family business have been a household name for a quality travel. They're wonderful drivers. Josh, Dave and Andrew give you three examples. Constantly go the extra mile to look after passengers with unmatched hospitality, whether it's an executive private hire or their famous luxury coach.
Holidays across the United Kingdom, Ireland and Europe. They provide a first class service that makes the entire constituency Langford area proud. I'm very proud to be their MP and to have companies like that that encourage us. Our local travel needs are in the safest hands possible. TransLink. Of course, the the bus group are under considerable financial pressure, some 46.6 million loss in the upcoming years. What they're saying. But they have a some 160 coaches in Northern Ireland.
And I'm going to conclude. So yeah, we.
09:52
09:52
09:52
09:52
09:52
09:52
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
It is a pleasure to have you in the chair today, as always. And my thanks go to my honourable friend from Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for bringing this debate to Westminster Hall. Now, this morning, I wish to concentrate on the industrial and the procurement elements for buses and coaches. And firstly, if I can refer honourable and right hon. Members, my membership of Unite the Union . At the end of March, Alexander Dennis announced that there would be 115 job losses in an end to Scottish bus manufacturing in Falkirk.
In my constituency. The Larbert site has been converted into chassis manufacturing. Now, the week before Alexander Dennis made that announcement, the Scottish Government declared the results of the £45 million Scottish Zero Emission Challenge Fund. Scottish Z three 334 zero emission vehicles were to be built. In total. Alexander Dennis was awarded 123 buses just 36%, whereas just under half of all orders, 166 buses were awarded to the Chinese company Yutong.
Make no mistake, the SNP Scottish Government were fully aware that Scots EB was essential for the sustainability of Alexander Dennis sites in Scotland. The SNP also knew that Alexander Dennis workers needed the Scottish Government to back them, but the SNP backed China instead. Now Mr. Turner. Of course, as with all industrial issues, there is a ripple knock on effect to things. For every job in bus manufacturing, there is a multiplier of 3 to 4 jobs in the wider supply chain and support services, 115 job losses on site really translates into hundreds more, maybe even four, figures in the supply chain across Forth Valley and Scotland.
Now what is happening at Alexander Dennis is another in a catalogue of industrial closures impacting Scotland. Now, respectfully, I say to my hon. Friend from the SNP is welcome to challenge and intervene on anything that I'm about to say, because the truth is, the SNP solution was a furlough scheme introduced with the aim of providing a stop gap solution. So NFI, that is a Canadian based. Owners of Alexander Dennis could come up with a rescue plan, but there was no rescue plan forthcoming.
The SNP strategy was, let us give NFI a pot of money and hope that the problem will go away instead of doing anything meaningful that would actually save the jobs all the SNP had to offer was a stalling tactic. DeLay the news of what was the inevitable SNP Scottish Government failure to help and save Scottish bus manufacturing until after the Holyrood election. The SNP put their own party's success at the ballot box, well ahead of workers and industry for Scotland.
In my constituency. The Larbert site has been converted into chassis manufacturing. Now, the week before Alexander Dennis made that announcement, the Scottish Government declared the results of the £45 million Scottish Zero Emission Challenge Fund. Scottish Z three 334 zero emission vehicles were to be built. In total. Alexander Dennis was awarded 123 buses just 36%, whereas just under half of all orders, 166 buses were awarded to the Chinese company Yutong.
Make no mistake, the SNP Scottish Government were fully aware that Scots EB was essential for the sustainability of Alexander Dennis sites in Scotland. The SNP also knew that Alexander Dennis workers needed the Scottish Government to back them, but the SNP backed China instead. Now Mr. Turner. Of course, as with all industrial issues, there is a ripple knock on effect to things. For every job in bus manufacturing, there is a multiplier of 3 to 4 jobs in the wider supply chain and support services, 115 job losses on site really translates into hundreds more, maybe even four, figures in the supply chain across Forth Valley and Scotland.
Now what is happening at Alexander Dennis is another in a catalogue of industrial closures impacting Scotland. Now, respectfully, I say to my hon. Friend from the SNP is welcome to challenge and intervene on anything that I'm about to say, because the truth is, the SNP solution was a furlough scheme introduced with the aim of providing a stop gap solution. So NFI, that is a Canadian based. Owners of Alexander Dennis could come up with a rescue plan, but there was no rescue plan forthcoming.
The SNP strategy was, let us give NFI a pot of money and hope that the problem will go away instead of doing anything meaningful that would actually save the jobs all the SNP had to offer was a stalling tactic. DeLay the news of what was the inevitable SNP Scottish Government failure to help and save Scottish bus manufacturing until after the Holyrood election. The SNP put their own party's success at the ballot box, well ahead of workers and industry for Scotland.
09:55
09:55
09:55
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Finally, an answer. I thank the honourable member for giving way. Would he agree with me that it might be more reasonable for him to focus on issues that are reserved to Westminster, rather than speaking about issues reserved to Holyrood for which he is not elected member but an elected member here.
09:56
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Well, what I say to the my hon. Friend from the Scottish National Party is constituents are constituents. Now, when I get constituents from Aloe and Grangemouth and the corresponding Scottish Parliament Authority area, they come to me because they have a dreadful service of an SNP MSP. Do you expect me to turn my back on them? No, no, no, I'll do something different. I'll give them the service that they elected me to provide.
Now, instead of subsidizing Chinese competition, the Scottish Government really should, in all honesty, quite simply back Scottish workers. Now a possible solution, a Scottish Labour suggested, was for the Scottish Government to move to a direct state procurement, allowing contracting authorities to use the Procurement Act of 2023 to legally disregard bids for non-treaty state suppliers like China , and instead embed domestic social value for Scottish workers, for Scottish Communities, for Scottish business. Now, the Scottish Government should get rid of the failed Scottish model and put in place a state backed purchasing and leasing scheme.
I find it laughable that the SNP want more powers to go to Holyrood. How about using the powers that they have actually got for public good and saved Scottish bus manufacturing? But of course that wouldn't fit in with the Westminster narrative. That is so easy. After 20 years of SNP government, they still refuse to take responsibility and the Alexander Dennis workers in the wider Scottish working class are paying the cost for it.
Now, instead of subsidizing Chinese competition, the Scottish Government really should, in all honesty, quite simply back Scottish workers. Now a possible solution, a Scottish Labour suggested, was for the Scottish Government to move to a direct state procurement, allowing contracting authorities to use the Procurement Act of 2023 to legally disregard bids for non-treaty state suppliers like China , and instead embed domestic social value for Scottish workers, for Scottish Communities, for Scottish business. Now, the Scottish Government should get rid of the failed Scottish model and put in place a state backed purchasing and leasing scheme.
I find it laughable that the SNP want more powers to go to Holyrood. How about using the powers that they have actually got for public good and saved Scottish bus manufacturing? But of course that wouldn't fit in with the Westminster narrative. That is so easy. After 20 years of SNP government, they still refuse to take responsibility and the Alexander Dennis workers in the wider Scottish working class are paying the cost for it.
09:57
09:57
09:57
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
I serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Turner, and I thank the member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for securing this very important and timely debate. Coaches are often primarily viewed as only being used for holidays and leisure, but this is just a small part of the important services that these operators provide. Coaches provide, in fact, 450 million passenger journeys a year in Great Britain, and they support 81,000 jobs, generating £6.4 billion of economic value to the economy.
Coach passengers are estimated to spend 8.3 billion annually in local economies and perhaps service stations, as well, as the member alluded to through tourism, retail and leisure coach companies such as Edward Thomas and sons who operate in my constituency provide essential services. They transport children safely to and from school every day. They support educational trips and are available for private hire and transport for local groups, organisations and communities. Coach journeys present an important, often more affordable alternative for travel across the UK, particularly with the current high rail and fuel prices.
Without a healthy network of independent coach operators, these services will become more expensive to provide and more difficult to access. But the coach industry is struggling and we must do more to support it. High fuel prices are a massive concern. Coaches are high mileage vehicles, and fuel represents one of the largest operating costs. So any significant increase or volatility in diesel prices immediately impacts operators, particularly where fuel contracts have been agreed well in advance at a fixed price.
It's really difficult for coach operators to absorb substantial cost increases of this nature without ultimately affecting the cost or availability of their services. But it is not just fuel. The general cost of operating a coach company have increased significantly. This can be the price of coaches, insurance, maintenance parts, tyres, wages or regulatory compliance. Modern coaches are a huge capital investment. They can cost upwards of £250,000. That's massive.
To make these investments, coach operators need certainty and support to justify continuing investment in their fleets. The government's anti-business tax regime, with increased business rates and employer national insurance contributions, has hugely impacted the industry's bottom line. This is threatening the future of the commercial viability of the coach industry. The availability of drivers is also a major challenge. As already alluded to, there is a current driver vacancy of 14%. Recruiting and retaining suitable professional passenger carrying vehicle drivers continues to be really difficult.
Coach driving is a skilled and responsible occupation, but the industry has an ageing workforce. Around 25% of the drivers are aged 60 and above. Attracting enough new drivers remains really challenging, notwithstanding the government led barriers to training new and young drivers. Because current regulatory restrictions on drivers aged 18 to 20 limits the journeys that they can take. This makes coach driving an unattractive early career option, which compounds recruitment difficulty as the workforce ages out.
This is restricting the amount of work operators are physically able to undertake, even when high customer demand is there. The coach industry continues to be overlooked in government planning and infrastructure. This has caused the sector to suffer like so many other industries, from the pressures the last decade has placed on businesses, it's been left to deal with blows from uncontrollable shocks like the pandemic, Brexit, red tape and push for net zero with limited support.
If a coach operator wants to commit to zero emission coaches, they need to secure at high cost vehicles with sufficient range and ensure reliable charging infrastructure across its routes. Coaches travel longer than average journeys, and currently there are limited charging provisions on motorways and a roads. Operators need greater certainty before committing to the significant investment required to reach net zero. Nearly there. But unlike cars and vans, coaches are not currently covered by the zero emission vehicle mandate and no equivalent statutory trajectory on long term road map exists for the sector, so we must do more to support the coach industry.
We must engage meaningfully with the sector to fix these fundamental issues. If we fail to do so, we'll lose this industry and the vital services it supports. So I urge the Minister to reflect on all the contributions and calls made here by myself and other colleagues today.
Coach passengers are estimated to spend 8.3 billion annually in local economies and perhaps service stations, as well, as the member alluded to through tourism, retail and leisure coach companies such as Edward Thomas and sons who operate in my constituency provide essential services. They transport children safely to and from school every day. They support educational trips and are available for private hire and transport for local groups, organisations and communities. Coach journeys present an important, often more affordable alternative for travel across the UK, particularly with the current high rail and fuel prices.
Without a healthy network of independent coach operators, these services will become more expensive to provide and more difficult to access. But the coach industry is struggling and we must do more to support it. High fuel prices are a massive concern. Coaches are high mileage vehicles, and fuel represents one of the largest operating costs. So any significant increase or volatility in diesel prices immediately impacts operators, particularly where fuel contracts have been agreed well in advance at a fixed price.
It's really difficult for coach operators to absorb substantial cost increases of this nature without ultimately affecting the cost or availability of their services. But it is not just fuel. The general cost of operating a coach company have increased significantly. This can be the price of coaches, insurance, maintenance parts, tyres, wages or regulatory compliance. Modern coaches are a huge capital investment. They can cost upwards of £250,000. That's massive.
To make these investments, coach operators need certainty and support to justify continuing investment in their fleets. The government's anti-business tax regime, with increased business rates and employer national insurance contributions, has hugely impacted the industry's bottom line. This is threatening the future of the commercial viability of the coach industry. The availability of drivers is also a major challenge. As already alluded to, there is a current driver vacancy of 14%. Recruiting and retaining suitable professional passenger carrying vehicle drivers continues to be really difficult.
Coach driving is a skilled and responsible occupation, but the industry has an ageing workforce. Around 25% of the drivers are aged 60 and above. Attracting enough new drivers remains really challenging, notwithstanding the government led barriers to training new and young drivers. Because current regulatory restrictions on drivers aged 18 to 20 limits the journeys that they can take. This makes coach driving an unattractive early career option, which compounds recruitment difficulty as the workforce ages out.
This is restricting the amount of work operators are physically able to undertake, even when high customer demand is there. The coach industry continues to be overlooked in government planning and infrastructure. This has caused the sector to suffer like so many other industries, from the pressures the last decade has placed on businesses, it's been left to deal with blows from uncontrollable shocks like the pandemic, Brexit, red tape and push for net zero with limited support.
If a coach operator wants to commit to zero emission coaches, they need to secure at high cost vehicles with sufficient range and ensure reliable charging infrastructure across its routes. Coaches travel longer than average journeys, and currently there are limited charging provisions on motorways and a roads. Operators need greater certainty before committing to the significant investment required to reach net zero. Nearly there. But unlike cars and vans, coaches are not currently covered by the zero emission vehicle mandate and no equivalent statutory trajectory on long term road map exists for the sector, so we must do more to support the coach industry.
We must engage meaningfully with the sector to fix these fundamental issues. If we fail to do so, we'll lose this industry and the vital services it supports. So I urge the Minister to reflect on all the contributions and calls made here by myself and other colleagues today.
10:02
10:02
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Turner, and I'm grateful to my hon. Friend the member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for bringing us here today. Today, I want to speak about Stanley Travel, a coach business based in my North Durham constituency. Established in 1961, Stanley Travel remains a family owned and operated business. They operate more than 50 vehicles, employing a workforce of 95 staff from serving local schools and colleges in my constituency, to allowing tourists on a budget to get around the country like other coach companies we've heard about today, they provide our constituents with a great deal of value.
Unfortunately, Stanley Travel and other coach businesses face severe pressures on their operation, and I wanted to raise four questions for the minister. Rising fuel prices have substantially increased costs. Diesel prices have risen from £1 eight per litre in March to 159 per litre last week. That represents an additional £9,890 each week across Stanley Travel's operation. And where transport contracts have already been agreed at fixed prices in advance, it's local family businesses that are forced to absorb that cost.
These challenges are only going to be compounded by future increases in fuel duty, and we ought to recognise coaches as essential users of fuel, delivering education and community transport and lower carbon group travel. So first question is will the minister support an essential user fuel rebate for coach operators and urge the Treasury to cancel the proposed fuel duty increases? Driver and technician shortages make it harder for operators to maintain and expand services.
Recruiting and training new staff requires lots of investment, whilst restrictions affecting younger coach drivers, as we've heard, make it difficult to recruit directly from schools and colleges. Stanley Travel tell me they need a clearer pathway into coach driving and engineering, supported by accessible training and apprenticeships. So will the government support funded category D licence training, review driver apprenticeships and remove unnecessary barriers to younger people entering the sector? Too often, coaches are overlooked in transport and destination planning.
Inadequate parking, unsuitable pick up points and insufficient space for wheelchair boarding create practical difficulties for drivers and passengers. What steps will the government take to ensure councils and visitor destinations provide adequate coach parking, accessible boarding facilities and suitable driver rest areas? Finally, while coaches already offer an efficient way of moving groups while reducing individual car journeys, operators do want to invest in cleaner technology. But vehicle costs, range and charging infrastructure must reflect the demands of long distance and touring work.
A clear, coach specific roadmap to cleaner technology would give businesses greater confidence to plan investment, supported by practical infrastructure and appropriate financial assistance. Will the government develop that roadmap with operators and provide funding support that recognises the coach sector's needs? Currently, trading conditions for coach businesses like Stanley Travel are exceptionally difficult. Supporting coaches protects local jobs, protects affordable travel and essential services whilst helping communities access experiences and and opportunities across the country.
I hope the Minister is able to set out what the government is going to do to address each of the concerns that I've raised and to support companies like Stanley Travel, which has delivered so much for my constituents over the last 65 years.
Unfortunately, Stanley Travel and other coach businesses face severe pressures on their operation, and I wanted to raise four questions for the minister. Rising fuel prices have substantially increased costs. Diesel prices have risen from £1 eight per litre in March to 159 per litre last week. That represents an additional £9,890 each week across Stanley Travel's operation. And where transport contracts have already been agreed at fixed prices in advance, it's local family businesses that are forced to absorb that cost.
These challenges are only going to be compounded by future increases in fuel duty, and we ought to recognise coaches as essential users of fuel, delivering education and community transport and lower carbon group travel. So first question is will the minister support an essential user fuel rebate for coach operators and urge the Treasury to cancel the proposed fuel duty increases? Driver and technician shortages make it harder for operators to maintain and expand services.
Recruiting and training new staff requires lots of investment, whilst restrictions affecting younger coach drivers, as we've heard, make it difficult to recruit directly from schools and colleges. Stanley Travel tell me they need a clearer pathway into coach driving and engineering, supported by accessible training and apprenticeships. So will the government support funded category D licence training, review driver apprenticeships and remove unnecessary barriers to younger people entering the sector? Too often, coaches are overlooked in transport and destination planning.
Inadequate parking, unsuitable pick up points and insufficient space for wheelchair boarding create practical difficulties for drivers and passengers. What steps will the government take to ensure councils and visitor destinations provide adequate coach parking, accessible boarding facilities and suitable driver rest areas? Finally, while coaches already offer an efficient way of moving groups while reducing individual car journeys, operators do want to invest in cleaner technology. But vehicle costs, range and charging infrastructure must reflect the demands of long distance and touring work.
A clear, coach specific roadmap to cleaner technology would give businesses greater confidence to plan investment, supported by practical infrastructure and appropriate financial assistance. Will the government develop that roadmap with operators and provide funding support that recognises the coach sector's needs? Currently, trading conditions for coach businesses like Stanley Travel are exceptionally difficult. Supporting coaches protects local jobs, protects affordable travel and essential services whilst helping communities access experiences and and opportunities across the country.
I hope the Minister is able to set out what the government is going to do to address each of the concerns that I've raised and to support companies like Stanley Travel, which has delivered so much for my constituents over the last 65 years.
10:05
10:05
10:05
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today. Coaches are an essential part of Britain's transport infrastructure. They deserve proper recognition in government transport policy. Their role goes far beyond holidays. They take children to school, workers to their jobs, patients to appointments and provide transport for our armed forces. And of course, community groups. They keep communities connected for older people without a car. Coach services can be a lifeline, helping people stay independent and preventing isolation.
They support local jobs and businesses, bringing visitors into our towns and help reduce the number of cars on our roads. But operators are under serious financial pressure. Rising diesel costs are particularly difficult for companies tied into school and other contracts agreed months ago. And those extra costs cannot simply be passed on. The government must treat the industry fairly. Bus operators in England have received additional fuel support through the Bus Service Operators Grant.
I think it's £0.15 a litre. It may have gone up to another one. I'm not 100% sure. And hauliers have been given a temporary vehicle tax break. Coaches deserve proper consideration too. They get nothing. In my constituency of Runcorn and Helsby, local coach companies like Anthony's Travel, who I'm delighted to welcome here today, face an additional burden. The bridge tolls charges on the Mersey Gateway and Silver Jubilee bridges add to the cost of journeys across the river.
A large coach can face £19.20 for a return crossing before discounts for operators making repeated journeys. Those charges quickly mount up. This bridge tax puts further pressure on already stretched businesses, valuable businesses that we do not want to lose that contributes so much to the local community like Anthony's Travel. And at the moment, the cost must either be absorbed by the operator or reflected in what customers pay.
I would like ministers to consider meaningful toll relief for coaches providing essential services, alongside fair treatment in future transport and future transport funding and support. National Coach Week is an opportunity to recognise the people who keep this industry moving the drivers, the staff, the operators delivering services our communities depend on. But the message to government is simple recognise coaches. Listen to operators and give them a fair deal.
Thank you.
They support local jobs and businesses, bringing visitors into our towns and help reduce the number of cars on our roads. But operators are under serious financial pressure. Rising diesel costs are particularly difficult for companies tied into school and other contracts agreed months ago. And those extra costs cannot simply be passed on. The government must treat the industry fairly. Bus operators in England have received additional fuel support through the Bus Service Operators Grant.
I think it's £0.15 a litre. It may have gone up to another one. I'm not 100% sure. And hauliers have been given a temporary vehicle tax break. Coaches deserve proper consideration too. They get nothing. In my constituency of Runcorn and Helsby, local coach companies like Anthony's Travel, who I'm delighted to welcome here today, face an additional burden. The bridge tolls charges on the Mersey Gateway and Silver Jubilee bridges add to the cost of journeys across the river.
A large coach can face £19.20 for a return crossing before discounts for operators making repeated journeys. Those charges quickly mount up. This bridge tax puts further pressure on already stretched businesses, valuable businesses that we do not want to lose that contributes so much to the local community like Anthony's Travel. And at the moment, the cost must either be absorbed by the operator or reflected in what customers pay.
I would like ministers to consider meaningful toll relief for coaches providing essential services, alongside fair treatment in future transport and future transport funding and support. National Coach Week is an opportunity to recognise the people who keep this industry moving the drivers, the staff, the operators delivering services our communities depend on. But the message to government is simple recognise coaches. Listen to operators and give them a fair deal.
Thank you.
10:08
10:08
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Mr. Turner, it's a pleasure to serve under your chairship and I thank my colleague and neighbour, the honourable member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard, for securing this important debate. In Aylesbury and across the country, transport is not just about moving people from one place to another. It's so central to our economy, our future growth and the well-being and opportunities in our communities today. Coaches have a particularly important role to play, and I pay tribute to all the operators in my area, including Masons, coaches, Motts coaches, Redline and Star Travel Services.
They connect Aylesbury with the surrounding rural communities and vice versa. They support schools and colleges. As we've heard. They provide transport for community groups. They help residents access leisure, cultural, sporting and tourism opportunities alongside our rail and bus networks. These coaches are vital in so many ways. Last week I caught up with the brilliant Candice Mason from Mason's coaches in my constituency to discuss the challenges that they are facing as a business and as a sector.
Sadly, the picture is not looking great. Masons are planning to reduce their fleet from 28 coaches to less than 20. And that's because the costs on the business have skyrocketed. Workshop costs are up from 50,000 to 90,000 per year before Covid to 330,000 now. Insurance has risen sharply, and they're spending £8,000 a week now just on diesel. That's on top of the rising energy costs, National insurance, minimum wage and business rates.
And I know these are pressures not just felt by Masons, but by the SMEs across Buckinghamshire, which really are the backbone of our economy. So what does better engagement and support from government for the coach industry look like? I want to share briefly three suggestions. The first point is about transport and planning policy, because that's where it all starts. And too often local planning decisions overlook the practical needs of coaches. The result is poor parking, poor drop off and pick up facilities, lack of suitable rest areas for drivers and so on.
If we want coaches to support our local communities, planning guidance has to recognise them as a distinct mode of transport, while local authorities and visitor destinations have to be encouraged to provide appropriate facilities for coach operators and their passengers. This could help tackle the increased congestion on our roads, but it could also have a beneficial impact on the environment. Given that a single coach can remove dozens of cars from the road and significantly reduce the emissions per passenger within transport planning.
Accessibility must also be front and centre. I know the coach sector strongly supports making travel more accessible for disabled passengers and older people, but it's got to be not just about the coaches themselves, it's got to be about the wider adaptations across the whole of the journey, including suitable boarding areas, curbside spaces and level access points and so on. The second issue I want to raise is the skills shortage in the coach sector that we've heard about.
Around 14% of posts remain vacant. Nearly a quarter of drivers are thought to be over the age of 60 and close to retirement. Mason's has highlighted that it's very hard to attract new drivers, in particular because of the restrictions in the insurance, that mean they can no longer teach and train newly qualified drivers and but also the wider issues with the industry and the struggles to attract women in particular. So I'd like to know what the minister thinks on that.
And I'll move on to the third suggestion briefly, which of course is about costs. So many of our coach operators are local, family run SMEs. They're playing a vital role in employing and training up local people, purchasing from other businesses, paying taxes, national insurance. And yet they're having to absorb these increasing costs. So can I ask the minister what he can do to address this through targeted support, where SMEs experience these fast rising costs beyond their control, or through grants or transitional funding, where government regulation, for example, on accessibility, requires new investment.
I know that support with fuel costs, as we've heard, would be particularly welcomed by the coach industry through similar mechanisms that are available elsewhere in passenger transport. Coaches are too often the vital, the forgotten part of our transport network. And yet, as we know, they are vital a thriving coach sector, not just a luxury but a necessity. In Aylesbury, the villages and across the country, and I look forward to hearing the Minister's thoughts. Thank you.
They connect Aylesbury with the surrounding rural communities and vice versa. They support schools and colleges. As we've heard. They provide transport for community groups. They help residents access leisure, cultural, sporting and tourism opportunities alongside our rail and bus networks. These coaches are vital in so many ways. Last week I caught up with the brilliant Candice Mason from Mason's coaches in my constituency to discuss the challenges that they are facing as a business and as a sector.
Sadly, the picture is not looking great. Masons are planning to reduce their fleet from 28 coaches to less than 20. And that's because the costs on the business have skyrocketed. Workshop costs are up from 50,000 to 90,000 per year before Covid to 330,000 now. Insurance has risen sharply, and they're spending £8,000 a week now just on diesel. That's on top of the rising energy costs, National insurance, minimum wage and business rates.
And I know these are pressures not just felt by Masons, but by the SMEs across Buckinghamshire, which really are the backbone of our economy. So what does better engagement and support from government for the coach industry look like? I want to share briefly three suggestions. The first point is about transport and planning policy, because that's where it all starts. And too often local planning decisions overlook the practical needs of coaches. The result is poor parking, poor drop off and pick up facilities, lack of suitable rest areas for drivers and so on.
If we want coaches to support our local communities, planning guidance has to recognise them as a distinct mode of transport, while local authorities and visitor destinations have to be encouraged to provide appropriate facilities for coach operators and their passengers. This could help tackle the increased congestion on our roads, but it could also have a beneficial impact on the environment. Given that a single coach can remove dozens of cars from the road and significantly reduce the emissions per passenger within transport planning.
Accessibility must also be front and centre. I know the coach sector strongly supports making travel more accessible for disabled passengers and older people, but it's got to be not just about the coaches themselves, it's got to be about the wider adaptations across the whole of the journey, including suitable boarding areas, curbside spaces and level access points and so on. The second issue I want to raise is the skills shortage in the coach sector that we've heard about.
Around 14% of posts remain vacant. Nearly a quarter of drivers are thought to be over the age of 60 and close to retirement. Mason's has highlighted that it's very hard to attract new drivers, in particular because of the restrictions in the insurance, that mean they can no longer teach and train newly qualified drivers and but also the wider issues with the industry and the struggles to attract women in particular. So I'd like to know what the minister thinks on that.
And I'll move on to the third suggestion briefly, which of course is about costs. So many of our coach operators are local, family run SMEs. They're playing a vital role in employing and training up local people, purchasing from other businesses, paying taxes, national insurance. And yet they're having to absorb these increasing costs. So can I ask the minister what he can do to address this through targeted support, where SMEs experience these fast rising costs beyond their control, or through grants or transitional funding, where government regulation, for example, on accessibility, requires new investment.
I know that support with fuel costs, as we've heard, would be particularly welcomed by the coach industry through similar mechanisms that are available elsewhere in passenger transport. Coaches are too often the vital, the forgotten part of our transport network. And yet, as we know, they are vital a thriving coach sector, not just a luxury but a necessity. In Aylesbury, the villages and across the country, and I look forward to hearing the Minister's thoughts. Thank you.
10:13
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's an honour to serve under your chairmanship, and I thank the honourable member for securing this debate and commend her on her informative speech. Earlier this year, I had the pleasure of visiting a E Gough and Sons coaches in Llandrindod Wells, where I heard firsthand about some of the challenges facing the industry. I'm also fortunate to have other excellent coach operators in my constituency, including Hurdman coaches and Williams coaches.
These family run businesses are the hidden workhorses of our economy, but right now they are absorbing a lot of pain. The coach industry is of particular importance to the Welsh economy and plays a vital role in connecting rural communities and destinations that cannot always be reached by rail. This is of particular importance to my constituency, which contains major attractions and sites such as the Brecon Beacons, Hay on Wye and the Waterfall Country.
However, the coach industry faces significant challenges, particularly as has already been mentioned when it comes to rising operating costs and recruiting the next generation of drivers on fuel costs. The government must continue the freeze on fuel duty to protect operators and passengers from further inflationary passengers. The Liberal Democrats believe that a lot more must be done to help Donald Trump's reckless war with Iran, cheered on originally by the conservatives, and reform has pushed up prices at the pump, while the Treasury stands to receive an additional 2 billion in tax revenues as a result of those soaring prices.
The Liberal Democrats believe that money should be returned to motorists and businesses through a £0.10 cut in fuel duty, which would reduce pump prices by around £12 per litre for coach operators that we've been talking about today, who rely on fuel every single day, that would provide some much needed relief. But we also must see work being done to address the industry's growing workforce crisis. That point has been made several times in this debate already, which is, I think, apparent just how pressing that point really is.
The bus and coach sector faces an estimated estimated shortage of between 5000 and 10,000 drivers, with almost a quarter of existing drivers thought to be over 60. And at a time when so many young people are struggling to find employment, particularly in areas like rural Wales, it's extraordinary that an industry crying out for skilled workers is facing such significant barriers to recruitment, which is why we need to see funded category D licence training and the reform of the driver apprenticeship system.
This was one of the issues raised with me by E Gough and Sons, who highlighted the difficulties operators face in taking on apprentices directly, rather than having to rely on college led arrangements. Ultimately, if we want a thriving tourism economy. Better rural connectivity, more opportunities for young people, we must give our coach industry the support it needs. I hope the minister will take these concerns seriously and work with the industry to secure its long term future.
These family run businesses are the hidden workhorses of our economy, but right now they are absorbing a lot of pain. The coach industry is of particular importance to the Welsh economy and plays a vital role in connecting rural communities and destinations that cannot always be reached by rail. This is of particular importance to my constituency, which contains major attractions and sites such as the Brecon Beacons, Hay on Wye and the Waterfall Country.
However, the coach industry faces significant challenges, particularly as has already been mentioned when it comes to rising operating costs and recruiting the next generation of drivers on fuel costs. The government must continue the freeze on fuel duty to protect operators and passengers from further inflationary passengers. The Liberal Democrats believe that a lot more must be done to help Donald Trump's reckless war with Iran, cheered on originally by the conservatives, and reform has pushed up prices at the pump, while the Treasury stands to receive an additional 2 billion in tax revenues as a result of those soaring prices.
The Liberal Democrats believe that money should be returned to motorists and businesses through a £0.10 cut in fuel duty, which would reduce pump prices by around £12 per litre for coach operators that we've been talking about today, who rely on fuel every single day, that would provide some much needed relief. But we also must see work being done to address the industry's growing workforce crisis. That point has been made several times in this debate already, which is, I think, apparent just how pressing that point really is.
The bus and coach sector faces an estimated estimated shortage of between 5000 and 10,000 drivers, with almost a quarter of existing drivers thought to be over 60. And at a time when so many young people are struggling to find employment, particularly in areas like rural Wales, it's extraordinary that an industry crying out for skilled workers is facing such significant barriers to recruitment, which is why we need to see funded category D licence training and the reform of the driver apprenticeship system.
This was one of the issues raised with me by E Gough and Sons, who highlighted the difficulties operators face in taking on apprentices directly, rather than having to rely on college led arrangements. Ultimately, if we want a thriving tourism economy. Better rural connectivity, more opportunities for young people, we must give our coach industry the support it needs. I hope the minister will take these concerns seriously and work with the industry to secure its long term future.
10:16
10:16
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
Back your chair. I commend my honourable friend from Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for securing this debate, and I declare an interest as co-chair of the all party parliamentary Group for British Buses and draw honourable members attention to my declaration of financial interests. What is a bus and what is a coach was rightly a distinction. My honourable friend asked at the start of this debate, and it is one that very few people will think about. It's one I acknowledge before becoming a member of Parliament, I did not give very much thought.
But luckily it is a distinction that I believe is understood by the minister and by number ten, if not in Bute House, or, as my honourable friend described more alarmingly in UK law. While many companies still call themselves coach builders, there is no longer any full coach manufacturing currently taking place exclusively in the UK, but the latent capacity is still there at Alexander Dennis and Wrightbus of Northern Ireland, with the latter securing a deal to build the revived line of contour coaches last year.
But primary coach building ended last year in the United Kingdom, and that is something that should cause us alarm. We are, however, part of a wider European automotive supply chain that contains countless companies that build engines, brakes, Hvac and thermal systems, wheelchair lifts, destination displays, screens, and battery packs. That means that as the industry transitions to zero emissions, coaches government support such as developing electrification infrastructure and funding through programmes like drive 35 and subsidies for transitioning fleets become more important, especially as there has been less access for decarbonisation funding for the coach sector than there has been for bus.
But before the minister. Off the back of the Spending review , heads off to develop such a scheme for coaches where it's been there for bus, I will once again make the case that when we spend taxpayers money to help this sector and the broader transport sector, we must ensure that operators relying on government intervention benefit, not bash our domestic manufacturing industry. Too often, quick decisions and poorly designed schemes have seen money sent to Chinese manufacturers, with a subsequent loss of jobs, domestic jobs and undercutting UK industrial capacity, which could help us bring coach building back.
We need a sustainable pipeline to deliver a successful transition in the coming years to an electrified coach and bus fleet, with a focus on incentivising manufacturers to start restart coach building here in the United Kingdom. There has not been access to previous dedicated decarbonisation funding for the coach sector, and this is something that my hon. Friend from Grangemouth pointed out is something that the Scottish Government spectacularly failed to do. The primary beneficiary of their scheme was the coach builder Ember, who.
I will pause in my remarks to comment. Do run a fantastic, comparatively affordable and fully decarbonised coach service in Scotland. But as they have run exclusively electric buses since they started their operations in 2020, they ended up using taxpayer funded decarbonisation schemes. The largest beneficiary of that scheme is an operator to scale their fleet, not to decarbonise. Rather than the SNP's total lack of strategy. When the government are designing any future support for this sector, they should found it on two principles.
Whether it will bring more carbon out of the air than otherwise would have been there, and whether it will put more money into the pockets of British manufacturing workers, or more money into the pockets of boardrooms in Beijing. Scott is a cautionary tale for any future government support. Currently, mayors are only required to provide 10% consideration of social value for new content orders when they are building up their fleets, which is simply inadequate in practice to materially change the contracting authority behaviour.
When we are subject to the scale of Chinese dumping that we are currently seeing. The loss of jobs in bus manufacturing makes bringing back British built coaches less likely, and this deal that was struck by DFT last year, which I will admit is an improvement on the situation we were at previously, does sit awkwardly now when the government are rightly mandating 20% social value for central major procurement decisions. I believe this agreement the Department struck last year must be reopened considering this.
I also noticed when looking at the drive 35 scheme, it sets no rules on ownership, no rules on keeping IP in the UK or on national security screening, and considering the outstanding DFT and National Cyber Security Centre investigation into Chinese buses, I do think that this is worth consideration and the only rule is requiring benefiting companies to be registered in the UK. If we seek to onshore jobs and bring bus and coach building back and incentivise manufacturers to grasp this opportunity, this would be worth updating as we consult, as was described in the mandate, which there is no separate mechanism for the coach sector.
We should be equally as pragmatic with the coach and bus manufacturing sector and provide a pipeline which does not seek to undercut our manufacturing sector. I think having that clear focus on developing our own industrial supply chain with the existing funding would go a long way to supporting the UK's industries. We also could go further with measures that are coming up, such as tariffs on Chinese EVs are being considered. I would ask that the minister makes representations to his colleagues in the Department for Business and Trade to make sure that any measures are inclusive of Chinese coaches and buses that would otherwise undercut our domestic.
The prospect of building one.
But luckily it is a distinction that I believe is understood by the minister and by number ten, if not in Bute House, or, as my honourable friend described more alarmingly in UK law. While many companies still call themselves coach builders, there is no longer any full coach manufacturing currently taking place exclusively in the UK, but the latent capacity is still there at Alexander Dennis and Wrightbus of Northern Ireland, with the latter securing a deal to build the revived line of contour coaches last year.
But primary coach building ended last year in the United Kingdom, and that is something that should cause us alarm. We are, however, part of a wider European automotive supply chain that contains countless companies that build engines, brakes, Hvac and thermal systems, wheelchair lifts, destination displays, screens, and battery packs. That means that as the industry transitions to zero emissions, coaches government support such as developing electrification infrastructure and funding through programmes like drive 35 and subsidies for transitioning fleets become more important, especially as there has been less access for decarbonisation funding for the coach sector than there has been for bus.
But before the minister. Off the back of the Spending review , heads off to develop such a scheme for coaches where it's been there for bus, I will once again make the case that when we spend taxpayers money to help this sector and the broader transport sector, we must ensure that operators relying on government intervention benefit, not bash our domestic manufacturing industry. Too often, quick decisions and poorly designed schemes have seen money sent to Chinese manufacturers, with a subsequent loss of jobs, domestic jobs and undercutting UK industrial capacity, which could help us bring coach building back.
We need a sustainable pipeline to deliver a successful transition in the coming years to an electrified coach and bus fleet, with a focus on incentivising manufacturers to start restart coach building here in the United Kingdom. There has not been access to previous dedicated decarbonisation funding for the coach sector, and this is something that my hon. Friend from Grangemouth pointed out is something that the Scottish Government spectacularly failed to do. The primary beneficiary of their scheme was the coach builder Ember, who.
I will pause in my remarks to comment. Do run a fantastic, comparatively affordable and fully decarbonised coach service in Scotland. But as they have run exclusively electric buses since they started their operations in 2020, they ended up using taxpayer funded decarbonisation schemes. The largest beneficiary of that scheme is an operator to scale their fleet, not to decarbonise. Rather than the SNP's total lack of strategy. When the government are designing any future support for this sector, they should found it on two principles.
Whether it will bring more carbon out of the air than otherwise would have been there, and whether it will put more money into the pockets of British manufacturing workers, or more money into the pockets of boardrooms in Beijing. Scott is a cautionary tale for any future government support. Currently, mayors are only required to provide 10% consideration of social value for new content orders when they are building up their fleets, which is simply inadequate in practice to materially change the contracting authority behaviour.
When we are subject to the scale of Chinese dumping that we are currently seeing. The loss of jobs in bus manufacturing makes bringing back British built coaches less likely, and this deal that was struck by DFT last year, which I will admit is an improvement on the situation we were at previously, does sit awkwardly now when the government are rightly mandating 20% social value for central major procurement decisions. I believe this agreement the Department struck last year must be reopened considering this.
I also noticed when looking at the drive 35 scheme, it sets no rules on ownership, no rules on keeping IP in the UK or on national security screening, and considering the outstanding DFT and National Cyber Security Centre investigation into Chinese buses, I do think that this is worth consideration and the only rule is requiring benefiting companies to be registered in the UK. If we seek to onshore jobs and bring bus and coach building back and incentivise manufacturers to grasp this opportunity, this would be worth updating as we consult, as was described in the mandate, which there is no separate mechanism for the coach sector.
We should be equally as pragmatic with the coach and bus manufacturing sector and provide a pipeline which does not seek to undercut our manufacturing sector. I think having that clear focus on developing our own industrial supply chain with the existing funding would go a long way to supporting the UK's industries. We also could go further with measures that are coming up, such as tariffs on Chinese EVs are being considered. I would ask that the minister makes representations to his colleagues in the Department for Business and Trade to make sure that any measures are inclusive of Chinese coaches and buses that would otherwise undercut our domestic.
The prospect of building one.
10:21
10:21
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thank you, chair. It's a pleasure to serve under you, and thank you for keeping the best wine to the end. I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, and I congratulate the member for Dunstable, Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard on her excellent speech. Would I be right in saying that Toddington Services is in your constituency? If not, it's very close, a place I'm very familiar with and I'll explain in a moment. A company like Men's coaches in my constituency, represents one of the many, many hundreds of family owned and run coaches up and down these islands.
And I must here declare a non-financial interest, because my mother and father founded a coach company more than 50 years ago, and along with my brothers Liam, Sean, Enda and my sister una, I was part of a ready made, non-unionised labour force which my parents ruthlessly exploited. But that's all part of history now. Coaches connect our rural communities, transport pupils to school, provide resilience when rail services fail, and ensure that major cultural and sporting events run smoothly and can take place successfully.
Additionally, coaches play a very, very important role in the tourism sector for those who don't drive or for those who are on tours, for example, coaches can be the only transport option to many, many world class tourism facilities. In fact, they are the bees that pollinate all of these places. For example, one coach calling at the same location one day, every every day, each year can introduce at least £1 million to the local economy. That's just one coach per day.
The research has highlighted this, and while much of transport responsibility is devolved to the Scottish Parliament, I want to focus on issues that are in the remit of the UK government, as opposed to some colleagues who wasted valuable time in their speeches , speaking about matters that are devolved to Holyrood. No, I will not give way because other members. We've heard quite enough from that side of the House on these matters. I want to focus on two points.
The European Union entry exit system poses a significant challenge to international coach operators, with the 90 and 180 day rule already causing havoc for operators trying to comply with EU regulations. With a limited supply of drivers who are compliant, the EAS will increase the logistical challenges of the channel tunnel and ports, driving up costs and causing delays. This will result in unfair advantages for less green forms of international travel, i.e. air travel.
The UK government, as part of its ongoing discussions with the EU, should simplify border controls, explore pre-registration for coaches and explore ways to make international travel easier for the coaching sector. And I look forward to the minister's response on that point. The second point is the cost of fuel has already been mentioned. It's an important. In fact, it's a crucial issue. Fuel prices are increasing significantly following the war in the Middle East.
The government should outline what action is taken to mitigate this as much as possible. Coaches offer a lifeline in terms of affordable travel to many households. Therefore, support is more vital than ever, and we look to the budget in the next two weeks to tell the coaching industry what they can expect in terms of help in this area. Now Scotland seeks to grow its visitor economy, improve connectivity, support rural communities and meet ambitious environmental targets.
Coaches must be part of the solution. No, I will not. And I just want to make this point penultimately. I recognise what the . The mover of the debate said about the. Sometimes it's a coach, sometimes it's a bus. But I can assure her a coach, driver and a coach is a very different thing from a bus. Now finally and conclusion, I therefore urge ministers to work closely with operators and industry bodies to address the issues with coach travel, and I seek the assurance that further action will be taken in regards to fuel costs in the forthcoming budget.
Thank you.
And I must here declare a non-financial interest, because my mother and father founded a coach company more than 50 years ago, and along with my brothers Liam, Sean, Enda and my sister una, I was part of a ready made, non-unionised labour force which my parents ruthlessly exploited. But that's all part of history now. Coaches connect our rural communities, transport pupils to school, provide resilience when rail services fail, and ensure that major cultural and sporting events run smoothly and can take place successfully.
Additionally, coaches play a very, very important role in the tourism sector for those who don't drive or for those who are on tours, for example, coaches can be the only transport option to many, many world class tourism facilities. In fact, they are the bees that pollinate all of these places. For example, one coach calling at the same location one day, every every day, each year can introduce at least £1 million to the local economy. That's just one coach per day.
The research has highlighted this, and while much of transport responsibility is devolved to the Scottish Parliament, I want to focus on issues that are in the remit of the UK government, as opposed to some colleagues who wasted valuable time in their speeches , speaking about matters that are devolved to Holyrood. No, I will not give way because other members. We've heard quite enough from that side of the House on these matters. I want to focus on two points.
The European Union entry exit system poses a significant challenge to international coach operators, with the 90 and 180 day rule already causing havoc for operators trying to comply with EU regulations. With a limited supply of drivers who are compliant, the EAS will increase the logistical challenges of the channel tunnel and ports, driving up costs and causing delays. This will result in unfair advantages for less green forms of international travel, i.e. air travel.
The UK government, as part of its ongoing discussions with the EU, should simplify border controls, explore pre-registration for coaches and explore ways to make international travel easier for the coaching sector. And I look forward to the minister's response on that point. The second point is the cost of fuel has already been mentioned. It's an important. In fact, it's a crucial issue. Fuel prices are increasing significantly following the war in the Middle East.
The government should outline what action is taken to mitigate this as much as possible. Coaches offer a lifeline in terms of affordable travel to many households. Therefore, support is more vital than ever, and we look to the budget in the next two weeks to tell the coaching industry what they can expect in terms of help in this area. Now Scotland seeks to grow its visitor economy, improve connectivity, support rural communities and meet ambitious environmental targets.
Coaches must be part of the solution. No, I will not. And I just want to make this point penultimately. I recognise what the . The mover of the debate said about the. Sometimes it's a coach, sometimes it's a bus. But I can assure her a coach, driver and a coach is a very different thing from a bus. Now finally and conclusion, I therefore urge ministers to work closely with operators and industry bodies to address the issues with coach travel, and I seek the assurance that further action will be taken in regards to fuel costs in the forthcoming budget.
Thank you.
10:25
10:25
10:25
Speaker 17
-
Speaker 17
Mr. Turner. It's a pleasure to serve under your chair. Can I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time to this debate? And the proposer, the honourable member for Dunston Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard, who brings her customary passion and championing of the coach industry to this debating chamber, which she always makes us conscious of on the Transport Select Committee. And she very articulately articulated the distinctive requirements of the coach industry and made me aware of National Coach Week, which I must confess I hadn't previously known was a week.
But then there are weeks on a great many topics these days. We've heard some important themes raised during this debate. The honourable member for Strangford and also for Brecon, Radnor and Tywi highlighted the critical rural role that the coach sector can play in getting people to and from schools. The honourable members for Alloa and Grangemouth and Falkirk outlined the critical role of manufacturing for the bus and coach sector that our, our, our country has and the honourable member for Aberdeenshire North and Murray East talked about his own family heritage in the coach sector and all three of those gave us a little amuse bouche of the passions that dominate Holyrood in this place, which is very interesting for those of us who don't tend to get there very often.
The honourable member for Epsom and Ewell talked about the critical role that coach plays in providing affordable travel and many honourable members, including for North Durham, Runcorn and Helsby, and talked about the local coach companies that they have in their constituency. And the honourable member for Aylesbury talked about the need for support and encouragement for the coach sector as a whole. Now, in my own constituency, I have a number of coach companies that provide a critical service.
Pearce's coaches, now owned by the Go-Ahead Group at Thames Travel's Didcot Depot, JD Travel in Culham, who provide private hire Ridgeway's coaches in Wantage and the Weaver Way Travel Company, is based in next door Newbury, but took over the once legendary Tapine's coaches brand, which was based in my constituency, and the economic benefits of the coach industry are hard to understate. And yet, as the proposer said, we tend not to reflect upon them as much as we should.
Around 450 million passenger journeys are made by coach in Britain each year, and coach coach passengers are estimated to spend £8.3 billion
But then there are weeks on a great many topics these days. We've heard some important themes raised during this debate. The honourable member for Strangford and also for Brecon, Radnor and Tywi highlighted the critical rural role that the coach sector can play in getting people to and from schools. The honourable members for Alloa and Grangemouth and Falkirk outlined the critical role of manufacturing for the bus and coach sector that our, our, our country has and the honourable member for Aberdeenshire North and Murray East talked about his own family heritage in the coach sector and all three of those gave us a little amuse bouche of the passions that dominate Holyrood in this place, which is very interesting for those of us who don't tend to get there very often.
The honourable member for Epsom and Ewell talked about the critical role that coach plays in providing affordable travel and many honourable members, including for North Durham, Runcorn and Helsby, and talked about the local coach companies that they have in their constituency. And the honourable member for Aylesbury talked about the need for support and encouragement for the coach sector as a whole. Now, in my own constituency, I have a number of coach companies that provide a critical service.
Pearce's coaches, now owned by the Go-Ahead Group at Thames Travel's Didcot Depot, JD Travel in Culham, who provide private hire Ridgeway's coaches in Wantage and the Weaver Way Travel Company, is based in next door Newbury, but took over the once legendary Tapine's coaches brand, which was based in my constituency, and the economic benefits of the coach industry are hard to understate. And yet, as the proposer said, we tend not to reflect upon them as much as we should.
Around 450 million passenger journeys are made by coach in Britain each year, and coach coach passengers are estimated to spend £8.3 billion
10:28
Speaker 9
-
Speaker 9
Are estimated to spend £8.3 billion annually in local economies through tourism, retail and leisure, with inbound international visitors travelling by coach contributing a further £610 million a year. The industry estimates that a single additional coach visiting a destination each day can generate around £1 million a year for the local . And with rail prices still generally rather higher than many would like, coach a private coach, operators often present an important, more affordable alternative for long distance travel and indeed for intercity operators.
Coach operators provide a vital function during the all too common rail replacement road service. Although, believe it or not, fellow members, I was on holiday in Switzerland recently and I had to go on a replacement bus even there, so it isn't an issue unique to us. And as has been said during this debate, that coach travel can be essential for providing some school transport. There are key regulatory and economic challenges facing the coach industry.
It has suffered, like so many, from the pressure the last decade has placed on businesses, from uncontrollable shocks such as the pandemic to completely self-imposed ones such as the conservatives, botched Brexit deals, excessive red tape and now the huge delays we are seeing at borders for international coach travel as a result of the EU entry and exit system. Some of the government's anti-business policies have further increased pressure, with raised business rates and employer national Insurance contributions further threatening the Koch Industries bottom lines.
Coach companies do not receive any of the fuel duty relief measures that other modes of passenger transport do, and operators want UK government engagement with the EU on pre-registration and digital documentation for coach parties. A specific exemption for professional coach drivers from the 9180 Schengen rule, and continued investment in port and border infrastructure to prevent repeats of the severe queuing seen in past peak periods. Now, as many honourable members have mentioned, there are severe workforce issues facing the coach sector.
The industry reported driver shortfall stands at an estimated 5 to 10,000, with around 14% of driver roles currently vacant and about a quarter of the existing driver workforce aged over 60. Now, something I hope that the minister will specifically address is this issue of coach drivers not being allowed to start at the age of 18. This seems particularly anomalous, given the recent government announcements about train the train driving age being lowered to 18.
It does seem quite hard to see the logic and the consistency, so I hope he will be able to shed some light on that. In terms of the planning system, coaches have historically been an afterthought in both local and national transport planning. Regulated in practice as an afterthought to bus policy, despite being a very fundamentally different and deregulated commercial method of transport. This has produced a chronic shortage of coach parking, drop off space and driver rest facilities, directly affecting operators ability to comply with statutory drivers hours rules, and has left coaches significantly absent from local transport and spatial plans.
And industry bodies are calling for coaches to be recognised as a distinct mode in planning guidance for motorway service areas to be required to prioritise coach parking and driver facilities, and for more standardised local authority procurement to reduce the administrative burden on operators bidding for home to school and other contracted work. Coaches are also an important consideration in improving integrated transport policy because whether or not coach operators are given access to major urban bus stations is highly inconsistent with local authorities and owners and operators of those bus terminals making very different decisions whether to grant access to national coach operators.
Accessibility remains a challenge. The Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations require in-scope coaches to be fully wheelchair accessible, but in practice, this depends on kerbside infrastructure just as much as the capability of the coaches level ground of up to four metres needed. That doesn't exist at many locations coaches serve, meaning vehicles can be technically compliant while still failing to deliver a reliably accessible journey. The accessibility equipment required also adds weight and takes up capacity that could otherwise carry passengers.
So the sectors ask is a shift from a vehicle focused compliance regime toward a whole journey . Accessibility framework covering booking, boarding, infrastructure and arrival. Developed jointly with local authorities, operators and disability groups. Now, as the honourable member for Falkirk said, decarbonisation is a challenge for this sector. Unlike cars and vans, coaches are not currently covered by the zero emission vehicle mandate and no equivalent statutory trajectory or long term support and roadmap exists for the sector.
Zero emission coaches face a much harder technical challenge than buses or cars, with longer average journeys increasing the importance of rage and range and refuelling infrastructure and charging and hydrogen infrastructure suitable for coaches. Largely non-existent on the motorway and major a road networks industry data suggests. Roughly three quarters of coach operators currently have no plan to introduce zero emission vehicles, citing high upfront costs and insufficient range as the main barriers. The sector is asking government to publish a long delayed low carbon fuel strategy.
Extended infrastructure trials such as zero emission and hydrogen infrastructure demonstrator to coaches on a similar footing to heavy goods vehicles, and consider an interim fuel duty incentive for low carbon fuels to bridge the gap until zero emission coaches are commercially viable at scale. In conclusion, Mr. Turner, we've heard today of the vital role that coaches play, whether that is whether as a long distance public transport offer, whether that's helping children get to school, whether that's enabling groups of people old and young to access tourism, hospitality, culture, etc.
they haven't been supported or given enough attention. The honourable member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard is moving us on the journey, and I hope the minister will say what more can be done to recognise and support this critical sector.
Coach operators provide a vital function during the all too common rail replacement road service. Although, believe it or not, fellow members, I was on holiday in Switzerland recently and I had to go on a replacement bus even there, so it isn't an issue unique to us. And as has been said during this debate, that coach travel can be essential for providing some school transport. There are key regulatory and economic challenges facing the coach industry.
It has suffered, like so many, from the pressure the last decade has placed on businesses, from uncontrollable shocks such as the pandemic to completely self-imposed ones such as the conservatives, botched Brexit deals, excessive red tape and now the huge delays we are seeing at borders for international coach travel as a result of the EU entry and exit system. Some of the government's anti-business policies have further increased pressure, with raised business rates and employer national Insurance contributions further threatening the Koch Industries bottom lines.
Coach companies do not receive any of the fuel duty relief measures that other modes of passenger transport do, and operators want UK government engagement with the EU on pre-registration and digital documentation for coach parties. A specific exemption for professional coach drivers from the 9180 Schengen rule, and continued investment in port and border infrastructure to prevent repeats of the severe queuing seen in past peak periods. Now, as many honourable members have mentioned, there are severe workforce issues facing the coach sector.
The industry reported driver shortfall stands at an estimated 5 to 10,000, with around 14% of driver roles currently vacant and about a quarter of the existing driver workforce aged over 60. Now, something I hope that the minister will specifically address is this issue of coach drivers not being allowed to start at the age of 18. This seems particularly anomalous, given the recent government announcements about train the train driving age being lowered to 18.
It does seem quite hard to see the logic and the consistency, so I hope he will be able to shed some light on that. In terms of the planning system, coaches have historically been an afterthought in both local and national transport planning. Regulated in practice as an afterthought to bus policy, despite being a very fundamentally different and deregulated commercial method of transport. This has produced a chronic shortage of coach parking, drop off space and driver rest facilities, directly affecting operators ability to comply with statutory drivers hours rules, and has left coaches significantly absent from local transport and spatial plans.
And industry bodies are calling for coaches to be recognised as a distinct mode in planning guidance for motorway service areas to be required to prioritise coach parking and driver facilities, and for more standardised local authority procurement to reduce the administrative burden on operators bidding for home to school and other contracted work. Coaches are also an important consideration in improving integrated transport policy because whether or not coach operators are given access to major urban bus stations is highly inconsistent with local authorities and owners and operators of those bus terminals making very different decisions whether to grant access to national coach operators.
Accessibility remains a challenge. The Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations require in-scope coaches to be fully wheelchair accessible, but in practice, this depends on kerbside infrastructure just as much as the capability of the coaches level ground of up to four metres needed. That doesn't exist at many locations coaches serve, meaning vehicles can be technically compliant while still failing to deliver a reliably accessible journey. The accessibility equipment required also adds weight and takes up capacity that could otherwise carry passengers.
So the sectors ask is a shift from a vehicle focused compliance regime toward a whole journey . Accessibility framework covering booking, boarding, infrastructure and arrival. Developed jointly with local authorities, operators and disability groups. Now, as the honourable member for Falkirk said, decarbonisation is a challenge for this sector. Unlike cars and vans, coaches are not currently covered by the zero emission vehicle mandate and no equivalent statutory trajectory or long term support and roadmap exists for the sector.
Zero emission coaches face a much harder technical challenge than buses or cars, with longer average journeys increasing the importance of rage and range and refuelling infrastructure and charging and hydrogen infrastructure suitable for coaches. Largely non-existent on the motorway and major a road networks industry data suggests. Roughly three quarters of coach operators currently have no plan to introduce zero emission vehicles, citing high upfront costs and insufficient range as the main barriers. The sector is asking government to publish a long delayed low carbon fuel strategy.
Extended infrastructure trials such as zero emission and hydrogen infrastructure demonstrator to coaches on a similar footing to heavy goods vehicles, and consider an interim fuel duty incentive for low carbon fuels to bridge the gap until zero emission coaches are commercially viable at scale. In conclusion, Mr. Turner, we've heard today of the vital role that coaches play, whether that is whether as a long distance public transport offer, whether that's helping children get to school, whether that's enabling groups of people old and young to access tourism, hospitality, culture, etc.
they haven't been supported or given enough attention. The honourable member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard is moving us on the journey, and I hope the minister will say what more can be done to recognise and support this critical sector.
10:34
10:34
Speaker 18
-
Speaker 18
Thank you, Mr. Turner. It's a pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship. And can I congratulate the Honourable Lady for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for securing this debate? And can I agree with her that coaches are indeed unique and vital? I think from the debate we've had this afternoon, that there really isn't that much which divides the House on these topics. The challenge, as ever, will be what the government does with that support and those asks.
We have heard from all sides of the chamber this morning in order to secure the future of the UK coach sector, because, as we've heard, for many coaches, play a critical role in getting people to schools, supporting tourism and helping businesses transport people around the country and indeed internationally. The statistic that many of us will have heard from the sector is that just one additional coach every day can deliver £1 million in economic value annually to a destination.
On the face of it, this may sound like a rather surprising amount, but when you consider the capacity of a coach and the number of people it can transport, this becomes immediately less surprising. While the precise number is unclear, we know there are around 2500 coach operators in the United Kingdom. It has been estimated that 88% of these are either family owned or individually owned. Together, these companies employ tens of thousands of people across the country.
And to give just one example of their contribution, help transport 600,000 children, including one of my own, to school every day. And indeed, on that note, with the indulgence of the House, can I briefly thank a wonderful man called Rob who drove coaches on multiple home to school transport routes in Buckinghamshire until the end of the last academic year, where he moved on to a local taxi firm. His bright outlook gave real joy to the children.
He transported each and every day, handwriting each of them a Christmas card at Christmas and indeed became famous for the songs he put on between the bus stops and the pick up points . In school, the children very much miss him as their home to school coach driver. We thank him for what he did and hopefully one day might return to those roots in Buckinghamshire to. With much of the transport sector, we would be foolish not to recognise the challenges facing the industry, particularly for those operators who have not received government support.
With diesel hitting all time highs, the challenges facing the coach industry are more profound, more pronounced than ever before. A recent survey by the newly established coach, UK organisation, warned that 41% of operators would withdraw from home to school contracts and 18% would consider closing down altogether if high prices persist beyond December. While hope may be a suitable remedy for the party opposite, it does not help with the financial reality faced by businesses across the country.
The particular challenges associated with this industry highlight the need to take steps to reduce costs for business. But what message would operators have taken from the government? At Labour Party conference? During the Transport Secretary's speech to their conference, the word fuel was not mentioned once. However, operators are still facing an increase in fuel duty scheduled to take effect at the start of next year, then another hike in March.
The deadline is fast approaching, which is why conservatives have called for the government to provide clarity on this issue immediately and freeze that fuel duty further. While Labour may think that everything is going right simply because they have a new leader, the reality for coach drivers and operators is different. So given these circumstances, I recognise the coach industries call for targeted financial relief this year. I can clearly understand why operators are asking for this, and it should serve as a reminder that the government's focus cannot be on extracting ever greater revenues to fund its profligate spending.
I recognise the challenge in committing to specific financial support. However, ultimately we have to ensure that fuel prices remain affordable and that businesses can continue to operate sustainably. This involves ensuring that fuel duty does not increase, and doing what we can as a country to increase the supply of fuel. Both fossil fuel, sustainable advanced fuels and indeed in the future, synthetic fuels. Additionally, we must acknowledge the broader energy related issues that are relevant to this discussion.
The consultation outcome on ending the sale of new non zero emission buses and on the decarbonisation of coaches and minibuses showed that respondents emphasised that coaches have significantly different operating cycles from those of buses used in regular services. For example, coaches may not return to their home depots as often as service buses do. They may also need to be able to find refuelling locations wherever they operate, and the vehicles themselves may need a range of hundreds of miles.
If such measures were introduced, they would place obvious strains on efforts to procure vehicles that meet the standards. The government will ultimately require. The practicalities of operating these vehicles, therefore, underline the importance of technological neutrality, allowing businesses to buy the vehicles that will enable them to provide the services they know how to deliver effectively. Returning to the example of transporting children to school, we have heard from a variety of operators about the increasing costs resulting from the government's increase in National Insurance contributions, which was originally estimated to cost £800 per driver per year.
These costs can create particular challenges for the provision of transport for disabled people who may require more bespoke transport arrangements. Overall. When we consider the financial pressures facing the sector, it appears to be another example of the government treating those on the roads as a means of simply extracting revenue, while costs such as fuel remain an important consideration, we must also consider the regulations we have in place. One issue raised by operators in the coach sector, as well as the wider transport industry, is the difficulty of recruiting and training staff, and that has come through in the debate this morning.
These skill shortages can rapidly affect the industry if left unchecked, as we saw in the HGV sector a few years ago. This means that we really need to ensure that the regulations we have in place enable people, particularly young people, entering the workforce, to develop the skills they need, providing young people with opportunities to learn and develop at an earlier age would be advantageous. For example, one element conservatives have sought to address in our recently released skills package was the removal of the 50 kilometre restriction for fully qualified bus and coach drivers aged 18 to 20.
Finding ways to make regulations work better for business, while creating opportunities for young people is essential. Furthermore, conservative plans for a reduction in national Insurance contributions for employers of 21 to 24 year olds could provide opportunities for SMEs to invest in skills and encourage more young people to join the sector at the start of their careers. We really don't mind if the government pick up and run with these proposals. I appreciate that this alone would not be sufficient to solve all the issues facing the industry, but it should inform the approach.
The government has said that it acknowledges the role of the coach industry and is committed to supporting it. However, I think it can go further by adopting the right approach and asking a simple question what can government do to enable enable these small businesses to operate and grow? Ultimately, the coach industry needs to be able to operate despite the significant costs it is facing. It is an industry that typically receives no public funding and relies heavily on small operators working exceptionally hard to run their businesses.
We must not forget the people behind these businesses and any steps that can be taken to make it easier for them to run their businesses should be welcomed. The ideas have been put out across all sides of this House this morning. The challenge I put to the minister is, how can he then go back to the department and make them a reality Minister?
We have heard from all sides of the chamber this morning in order to secure the future of the UK coach sector, because, as we've heard, for many coaches, play a critical role in getting people to schools, supporting tourism and helping businesses transport people around the country and indeed internationally. The statistic that many of us will have heard from the sector is that just one additional coach every day can deliver £1 million in economic value annually to a destination.
On the face of it, this may sound like a rather surprising amount, but when you consider the capacity of a coach and the number of people it can transport, this becomes immediately less surprising. While the precise number is unclear, we know there are around 2500 coach operators in the United Kingdom. It has been estimated that 88% of these are either family owned or individually owned. Together, these companies employ tens of thousands of people across the country.
And to give just one example of their contribution, help transport 600,000 children, including one of my own, to school every day. And indeed, on that note, with the indulgence of the House, can I briefly thank a wonderful man called Rob who drove coaches on multiple home to school transport routes in Buckinghamshire until the end of the last academic year, where he moved on to a local taxi firm. His bright outlook gave real joy to the children.
He transported each and every day, handwriting each of them a Christmas card at Christmas and indeed became famous for the songs he put on between the bus stops and the pick up points . In school, the children very much miss him as their home to school coach driver. We thank him for what he did and hopefully one day might return to those roots in Buckinghamshire to. With much of the transport sector, we would be foolish not to recognise the challenges facing the industry, particularly for those operators who have not received government support.
With diesel hitting all time highs, the challenges facing the coach industry are more profound, more pronounced than ever before. A recent survey by the newly established coach, UK organisation, warned that 41% of operators would withdraw from home to school contracts and 18% would consider closing down altogether if high prices persist beyond December. While hope may be a suitable remedy for the party opposite, it does not help with the financial reality faced by businesses across the country.
The particular challenges associated with this industry highlight the need to take steps to reduce costs for business. But what message would operators have taken from the government? At Labour Party conference? During the Transport Secretary's speech to their conference, the word fuel was not mentioned once. However, operators are still facing an increase in fuel duty scheduled to take effect at the start of next year, then another hike in March.
The deadline is fast approaching, which is why conservatives have called for the government to provide clarity on this issue immediately and freeze that fuel duty further. While Labour may think that everything is going right simply because they have a new leader, the reality for coach drivers and operators is different. So given these circumstances, I recognise the coach industries call for targeted financial relief this year. I can clearly understand why operators are asking for this, and it should serve as a reminder that the government's focus cannot be on extracting ever greater revenues to fund its profligate spending.
I recognise the challenge in committing to specific financial support. However, ultimately we have to ensure that fuel prices remain affordable and that businesses can continue to operate sustainably. This involves ensuring that fuel duty does not increase, and doing what we can as a country to increase the supply of fuel. Both fossil fuel, sustainable advanced fuels and indeed in the future, synthetic fuels. Additionally, we must acknowledge the broader energy related issues that are relevant to this discussion.
The consultation outcome on ending the sale of new non zero emission buses and on the decarbonisation of coaches and minibuses showed that respondents emphasised that coaches have significantly different operating cycles from those of buses used in regular services. For example, coaches may not return to their home depots as often as service buses do. They may also need to be able to find refuelling locations wherever they operate, and the vehicles themselves may need a range of hundreds of miles.
If such measures were introduced, they would place obvious strains on efforts to procure vehicles that meet the standards. The government will ultimately require. The practicalities of operating these vehicles, therefore, underline the importance of technological neutrality, allowing businesses to buy the vehicles that will enable them to provide the services they know how to deliver effectively. Returning to the example of transporting children to school, we have heard from a variety of operators about the increasing costs resulting from the government's increase in National Insurance contributions, which was originally estimated to cost £800 per driver per year.
These costs can create particular challenges for the provision of transport for disabled people who may require more bespoke transport arrangements. Overall. When we consider the financial pressures facing the sector, it appears to be another example of the government treating those on the roads as a means of simply extracting revenue, while costs such as fuel remain an important consideration, we must also consider the regulations we have in place. One issue raised by operators in the coach sector, as well as the wider transport industry, is the difficulty of recruiting and training staff, and that has come through in the debate this morning.
These skill shortages can rapidly affect the industry if left unchecked, as we saw in the HGV sector a few years ago. This means that we really need to ensure that the regulations we have in place enable people, particularly young people, entering the workforce, to develop the skills they need, providing young people with opportunities to learn and develop at an earlier age would be advantageous. For example, one element conservatives have sought to address in our recently released skills package was the removal of the 50 kilometre restriction for fully qualified bus and coach drivers aged 18 to 20.
Finding ways to make regulations work better for business, while creating opportunities for young people is essential. Furthermore, conservative plans for a reduction in national Insurance contributions for employers of 21 to 24 year olds could provide opportunities for SMEs to invest in skills and encourage more young people to join the sector at the start of their careers. We really don't mind if the government pick up and run with these proposals. I appreciate that this alone would not be sufficient to solve all the issues facing the industry, but it should inform the approach.
The government has said that it acknowledges the role of the coach industry and is committed to supporting it. However, I think it can go further by adopting the right approach and asking a simple question what can government do to enable enable these small businesses to operate and grow? Ultimately, the coach industry needs to be able to operate despite the significant costs it is facing. It is an industry that typically receives no public funding and relies heavily on small operators working exceptionally hard to run their businesses.
We must not forget the people behind these businesses and any steps that can be taken to make it easier for them to run their businesses should be welcomed. The ideas have been put out across all sides of this House this morning. The challenge I put to the minister is, how can he then go back to the department and make them a reality Minister?
10:43
Speaker 19
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Speaker 19
Good morning, Mr. Turner. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I would first like to join my colleagues in thanking my hon. Friend the member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for bringing this critically important debate to the House and for her continued interest in this area, and for holding ministers in the dft's feet to the fire. On what is an incredibly important issue. I'm personally very pleased to have the opportunity to respond and participate on behalf of the government, and may I wish everyone a very happy National Coach Week.
Now, later, I will turn to some of the topics that my hon. Friend raised in her speech, particularly regarding decarbonisation and recruitment and retention of younger drivers. But firstly, I just wanted to touch on the point that she raised about coach data, because I think that's critically important. She is right to say, chair, that the coach sector is comparatively under evidenced compared to other major modes of transport. However, the available coach industry evidence that we have suggests that there are around 2500 coach operators in the United Kingdom, most of them small and family owned.
Although she is right to say that no definitive national estimate currently exists, and that is something that we must work tirelessly within the Department for transport to remedy. I hope, overall, that honourable members will be reassured that the government is committed to supporting the UK coach sector and has been raised by members manufacturing in the UK coach sector in every part of the United Kingdom, including in Scotland now. Yeah, I'd be glad to give way.
Now, later, I will turn to some of the topics that my hon. Friend raised in her speech, particularly regarding decarbonisation and recruitment and retention of younger drivers. But firstly, I just wanted to touch on the point that she raised about coach data, because I think that's critically important. She is right to say, chair, that the coach sector is comparatively under evidenced compared to other major modes of transport. However, the available coach industry evidence that we have suggests that there are around 2500 coach operators in the United Kingdom, most of them small and family owned.
Although she is right to say that no definitive national estimate currently exists, and that is something that we must work tirelessly within the Department for transport to remedy. I hope, overall, that honourable members will be reassured that the government is committed to supporting the UK coach sector and has been raised by members manufacturing in the UK coach sector in every part of the United Kingdom, including in Scotland now. Yeah, I'd be glad to give way.
10:44
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
In talking about the importance of coaching bus manufacturing, obviously the honourable member for Aberdeen North and East described, I think is a waste of time for members to raise it today. But the member of the Scottish Parliament for Falkirk West and his old boss, Stephen Flynn, say blame ludicrously this place for the challenges they have faced. Why does the Minister think the SNP ducked this debate, depending on which Parliament they happen to be sitting at at this particular moment?
10:45
Speaker 19
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Speaker 19
Well, can I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and the remarks from our colleague, the Honourable member for Alloa and Grangemouth. Manufacturing and sovereign capability in our bus and coach sector is critical. Irrespective of where you live in the United Kingdom, it's a matter for both the UK government and the government in Holyrood and I think irrespective of who is holding the pen, the Prime Minister has been clear that he wants to facilitate reindustrialisation and growth in every postcode of the United Kingdom.
We want a. Colleagues in the SNP and across the United Kingdom to help us in that work, to work collaboratively with us and to ensure that UK domestic manufacturers have the support they need to carry out their vitally important work. And that, chair, is because coaches are essential. If, if sometimes under-recognised parts of our transport system. They connect people with education, employment, family, leisure and major events. They support rail passengers during disruption and they give communities an affordable way to reach destinations across the country.
They are a very democratic form of transport. Yeah, very briefly.
We want a. Colleagues in the SNP and across the United Kingdom to help us in that work, to work collaboratively with us and to ensure that UK domestic manufacturers have the support they need to carry out their vitally important work. And that, chair, is because coaches are essential. If, if sometimes under-recognised parts of our transport system. They connect people with education, employment, family, leisure and major events. They support rail passengers during disruption and they give communities an affordable way to reach destinations across the country.
They are a very democratic form of transport. Yeah, very briefly.
10:46
Speaker 20
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Speaker 20
Minister, a number of years ago in my constituency, there was a really great initiative to run coach tours of local heritage assets linked to Mary, Queen of Scots and John Clare, the famous poet. I just wonder if he'll recognize the value that the sector brings to supporting local heritage and tourism Minister.
10:46
Speaker 19
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Speaker 19
Well, let me thank my hon. Friend for shining a spotlight on the impact that the coach sector has in his constituency to put more focus on our incredible British heritage site. That is a point incredibly well made, but there is a macro point to here, chair, and that is that the sector itself estimates that coaches provide around 450 million passenger journeys each year. It directly employs around 54,000 people. It supports a further 27,000 jobs through its supply chain, and contributes an estimated £6.4 billion to the economy.
Coach passengers are also estimated, as I believe has already been said, to spend £8.3 billion each year in local economies. Very briefly.
Coach passengers are also estimated, as I believe has already been said, to spend £8.3 billion each year in local economies. Very briefly.
10:47
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Giving way and and the sort of people who travel on coaches are typically not the most advantaged people pensioners, for example, children getting to school. Some people can afford coach travel but can't afford other forms of travel. So will he, as my constituents that I've mentioned already, as well as founders in Holbeach Drove and Cropley and Fosdyke and other local coach operators, will he agree to the rebate they suggested on fuel? The industry has suggested a small short term rebate to help them get over the hump of escalating fuel prices and therefore provide the service to the vulnerable people and many others that I've mentioned.
10:48
10:48
Speaker 19
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Speaker 19
Well, the honourable gentleman points to an important fact that our coach sector is used by those who may not otherwise be able to book public transport to get to where they need to. And although those people can also benefit from a package of measures that have been brought forward by this government to give them much needed breathing space, including the £2 bus cap, he is right to encourage me to always go further, to seek to improve that. He'll unfortunately have to be momentarily disappointed by me as I can't provide him with advance notice of what may or may not be in the budget.
But his general point is well made that that support is important. It's why the fuel duty freeze is in place currently, and those figures that I raised share underline the sector's importance to tourism, to high streets and to destinations throughout Great Britain. But this industry is also rooted in local communities. Many of those operators are small and family run businesses that have served their areas for generations. As the honourable member for Aberdeenshire North and East pointed out with his own personal experience, and we want those businesses to grow, to invest and to continue providing the flexible services on which passengers, schools and businesses depend.
Now I would like to turn first to driver recruitment. We need to continue to have an open dialogue with the sector about challenges to doing business and what the government can do to help, and driver recruitment is central for that. I recognise the sector's concerns about recruiting and retaining drivers, and in particular about the restrictions that multiple honourable members have raised affecting younger drivers. At present, 18 and 19 year olds may only drive buses and coaches on regular services of up to 50km.
That can severely limit the work available in a sector whose journeys are often longer distance or are not regular services. The honourable member for North Durham and for South Holland and the Deepings also raised issues of when young drivers can begin their qualifications and theory tests. And that is certainly something that I will take away and raise within the department. The Department has been engaging with the bus and coach industry alongside road safety groups, to understand the potential impacts of amending these restrictions, which apply to young drivers.
But I want honourable members to be assured that we are working hard and at pace to get the next generation into the coach sector. We're considering the evidence carefully and will set out our next steps in due course, but I will have my hon. Friend the Minister with direct responsibility for this matter to set out more detail on the timings in writing to the to the honourable Lady. I also want to turn to cost pressures.
They have been a consistent theme of this debate, especially raised by the honourable member for North Durham. I recognise that operators are facing pressures at the pump. It's why the government has extended the 5P5P fuel duty cuts until the end of the year, providing important support to businesses, including coach operators. We're going to continue to work closely with the sector chair, listen to its concerns and ensure that the challenges facing coach operators are understood across government.
There is also a continued piece of international advocacy, which sits within my role at the Department for transport, working with colleagues across government and with the UK delegations at the International Energy Agency to ensure that we continue to maintain robust flows and supply of diesel into the United Kingdom. Yes, I will briefly give way.
But his general point is well made that that support is important. It's why the fuel duty freeze is in place currently, and those figures that I raised share underline the sector's importance to tourism, to high streets and to destinations throughout Great Britain. But this industry is also rooted in local communities. Many of those operators are small and family run businesses that have served their areas for generations. As the honourable member for Aberdeenshire North and East pointed out with his own personal experience, and we want those businesses to grow, to invest and to continue providing the flexible services on which passengers, schools and businesses depend.
Now I would like to turn first to driver recruitment. We need to continue to have an open dialogue with the sector about challenges to doing business and what the government can do to help, and driver recruitment is central for that. I recognise the sector's concerns about recruiting and retaining drivers, and in particular about the restrictions that multiple honourable members have raised affecting younger drivers. At present, 18 and 19 year olds may only drive buses and coaches on regular services of up to 50km.
That can severely limit the work available in a sector whose journeys are often longer distance or are not regular services. The honourable member for North Durham and for South Holland and the Deepings also raised issues of when young drivers can begin their qualifications and theory tests. And that is certainly something that I will take away and raise within the department. The Department has been engaging with the bus and coach industry alongside road safety groups, to understand the potential impacts of amending these restrictions, which apply to young drivers.
But I want honourable members to be assured that we are working hard and at pace to get the next generation into the coach sector. We're considering the evidence carefully and will set out our next steps in due course, but I will have my hon. Friend the Minister with direct responsibility for this matter to set out more detail on the timings in writing to the to the honourable Lady. I also want to turn to cost pressures.
They have been a consistent theme of this debate, especially raised by the honourable member for North Durham. I recognise that operators are facing pressures at the pump. It's why the government has extended the 5P5P fuel duty cuts until the end of the year, providing important support to businesses, including coach operators. We're going to continue to work closely with the sector chair, listen to its concerns and ensure that the challenges facing coach operators are understood across government.
There is also a continued piece of international advocacy, which sits within my role at the Department for transport, working with colleagues across government and with the UK delegations at the International Energy Agency to ensure that we continue to maintain robust flows and supply of diesel into the United Kingdom. Yes, I will briefly give way.
10:51
10:51
Speaker 18
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Speaker 18
the Minister for giving way, but when it comes to a challenge facing government, which I appreciate, sits more with the Treasury than the Department for transport. Since fuel costs increased earlier this year, the government has taken in over £1 billion extra unexpected income to the Treasury from VAT on those higher fuel prices. So the money is there to support the coach sector, logistics sector and so on. Who so desperately need it, isn't it?
10:52
Speaker 19
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Speaker 19
Minister? I will reflect more later in my speech, chair of the steps we are taking to support the coach sector, especially in terms of building that longer term resilience, which we believe can come through the benefits that can be accrued through decarbonisation. He is right to raise the point about rising fuel prices. It is of concern to the government, and it's a matter that we work on very closely in collaboration with the sector.
But he will, of course, understand that I can't say much more on the exact issue that he raises ahead of the government ahead of the budget, but next year, I'd like to turn to transport connectivity and coaches indispensable role as part of an integrated transport network. Earlier this year, the department published Better Connected, which is the government's strategy for integrated transport in England. It sets a clear national vision for all partners across the transport system to create integrated networks that work well for people and that are safe, reliable, affordable and accessible so that people can make the journeys they need to easily.
It's principles of putting people first, creating well connected places and working in partnership apply across all forms of transport, but perhaps no more so than with coaches, which have a critical role to play as part of that integrated picture, particularly in connecting people to education and visitor destinations, but also connecting rural communities and supporting elderly residents. As was raised in the remarks by the honourable member for Didcot and Wantage. Better information, well-designed interchanges and closer coordination with rail, bus and local transport can make journeys easier, and we'll continue working with local leaders to ensure that coach travel is properly considered in local transport plans.
I do also just want to touch briefly on an important point that was made by my hon. Friend the member for Aylesbury about working more closely with local authorities to break through planning challenges in relation to this. There are currently obligations for local authorities to have regard to land use and land need for for a myriad other number of factors that doesn't pertain currently to driver welfare stops as they relate to critical national infrastructure on the strategic road network, I think there is more work for the Department for transport to do, to work more closely with local authorities to facilitate them being aware of just how critical it is to have proper freight and coach connectivity to every part of the United Kingdom.
I would like to turn next chair to zero emission coaches. They coaches themselves already provide an efficient form of mass transport, but we recognise the need to support the sector in going further in a way that makes good business sense. And the transition to zero emission coaches presents particular challenges that I am very cognizant of. Journeys can be long and variable. Vehicles may spend extended periods away from their depot, and operators need confidence that suitable charging will be available.
The government's £170 million multi-year depot charging scheme supports zero emission HGVs, vans and coaches by part funding charging infrastructure at fleet depots. Its first 2026 funding window offered support for up to 70% of eligible charge points and civil engineering costs up to £1 million per organisation. Yeah, very briefly. Yeah.
But he will, of course, understand that I can't say much more on the exact issue that he raises ahead of the government ahead of the budget, but next year, I'd like to turn to transport connectivity and coaches indispensable role as part of an integrated transport network. Earlier this year, the department published Better Connected, which is the government's strategy for integrated transport in England. It sets a clear national vision for all partners across the transport system to create integrated networks that work well for people and that are safe, reliable, affordable and accessible so that people can make the journeys they need to easily.
It's principles of putting people first, creating well connected places and working in partnership apply across all forms of transport, but perhaps no more so than with coaches, which have a critical role to play as part of that integrated picture, particularly in connecting people to education and visitor destinations, but also connecting rural communities and supporting elderly residents. As was raised in the remarks by the honourable member for Didcot and Wantage. Better information, well-designed interchanges and closer coordination with rail, bus and local transport can make journeys easier, and we'll continue working with local leaders to ensure that coach travel is properly considered in local transport plans.
I do also just want to touch briefly on an important point that was made by my hon. Friend the member for Aylesbury about working more closely with local authorities to break through planning challenges in relation to this. There are currently obligations for local authorities to have regard to land use and land need for for a myriad other number of factors that doesn't pertain currently to driver welfare stops as they relate to critical national infrastructure on the strategic road network, I think there is more work for the Department for transport to do, to work more closely with local authorities to facilitate them being aware of just how critical it is to have proper freight and coach connectivity to every part of the United Kingdom.
I would like to turn next chair to zero emission coaches. They coaches themselves already provide an efficient form of mass transport, but we recognise the need to support the sector in going further in a way that makes good business sense. And the transition to zero emission coaches presents particular challenges that I am very cognizant of. Journeys can be long and variable. Vehicles may spend extended periods away from their depot, and operators need confidence that suitable charging will be available.
The government's £170 million multi-year depot charging scheme supports zero emission HGVs, vans and coaches by part funding charging infrastructure at fleet depots. Its first 2026 funding window offered support for up to 70% of eligible charge points and civil engineering costs up to £1 million per organisation. Yeah, very briefly. Yeah.
10:55
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
The issue of energy efficiency in the minister's right to underline that. But does the minister think, when it comes to ensuring that the companies across the United Kingdom, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and here in the mainland could work together, but government needs to push that energy efficiency through all the companies so that they can all gain and all the reasons.
10:55
Speaker 19
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Speaker 19
The honourable member for Strangford raises a really important point about ensuring that where the government is encouraging decarbonisation and the resilience benefits that that can bring for the long term, that has to be done in a sustainable way, recognising the particular challenges that the sector faces in meeting that challenge. And that especially applies in Northern Ireland and in every part of the United Kingdom, but especially in the sort of area that he represents, where the tourist economy is so essential, and that coach connectivity is critical to ensuring that his local economy continues to thrive.
So it's an important point. Well made and depot charging will meet many operating needs, but it has been raised today, chair, that longer distance journeys will also require appropriate charging facilities at destinations and strategic locations. The government's forthcoming zero emission HGV and coach strategy will provide clearer national direction, a roadmap, some might say, for how that infrastructure will develop and will continue engaging coach operators, ChargePoint providers and motorway service area operators as a network expands.
We understand ultimately that that transition must be practical, commercially viable and shaped by real operating patterns. Just to touch briefly on accessibility, coaches do provide vital connectivity for many people with disabilities, and it is essential that they are able to travel safely, confidently and with dignity. This is just as important when they travel on leisure, rail replacement and home to school services as it is when they make long distance journeys. Accessibility should be considered at all stages of the passenger journey, from finding information and planning trips through accessing coach stations and stops and boarding, alighting and travelling on the vehicle.
Accessible information is vital for giving disabled passengers the confidence to use services and from the 1st of October, all coaches operating services that are subject to the Accessible Information Regulations, which are largely rail replacement, must be compliant unless they are covered by an exemption, and that is part of the broader work that we are doing to ensure a more accessible transport network. I just want to draw my remarks to a conclusion by thanking my hon. Friend, again, for securing this critically important debate, and to all of the members who have contributed and shared both their personal and constituency level experiences of the phenomenal contribution that the coach sector makes to our economy.
I hope I've demonstrated that the government recognises coaches as a vital part of the transport system, not something that is just lumped in with HGVs and other modes, but something which deserves its own cognisance of the challenges it faces. But the enormous opportunities and benefits that it brings to communities across the United Kingdom in supporting growth, widening opportunity, strengthening tourism and connecting communities. We will continue working with the sector to support its progress and to tackle some of those barriers together, including on growth and integration with the wider transport network, strengthening the workforce, increasing investment and progressing towards decarbonisation.
Our aim is clear we want a thriving, inclusive and sustainable coach industry that passengers can rely on for years to come and I think honourable members from across the House have pushed us further in that direction today. Thank you, Chair.
So it's an important point. Well made and depot charging will meet many operating needs, but it has been raised today, chair, that longer distance journeys will also require appropriate charging facilities at destinations and strategic locations. The government's forthcoming zero emission HGV and coach strategy will provide clearer national direction, a roadmap, some might say, for how that infrastructure will develop and will continue engaging coach operators, ChargePoint providers and motorway service area operators as a network expands.
We understand ultimately that that transition must be practical, commercially viable and shaped by real operating patterns. Just to touch briefly on accessibility, coaches do provide vital connectivity for many people with disabilities, and it is essential that they are able to travel safely, confidently and with dignity. This is just as important when they travel on leisure, rail replacement and home to school services as it is when they make long distance journeys. Accessibility should be considered at all stages of the passenger journey, from finding information and planning trips through accessing coach stations and stops and boarding, alighting and travelling on the vehicle.
Accessible information is vital for giving disabled passengers the confidence to use services and from the 1st of October, all coaches operating services that are subject to the Accessible Information Regulations, which are largely rail replacement, must be compliant unless they are covered by an exemption, and that is part of the broader work that we are doing to ensure a more accessible transport network. I just want to draw my remarks to a conclusion by thanking my hon. Friend, again, for securing this critically important debate, and to all of the members who have contributed and shared both their personal and constituency level experiences of the phenomenal contribution that the coach sector makes to our economy.
I hope I've demonstrated that the government recognises coaches as a vital part of the transport system, not something that is just lumped in with HGVs and other modes, but something which deserves its own cognisance of the challenges it faces. But the enormous opportunities and benefits that it brings to communities across the United Kingdom in supporting growth, widening opportunity, strengthening tourism and connecting communities. We will continue working with the sector to support its progress and to tackle some of those barriers together, including on growth and integration with the wider transport network, strengthening the workforce, increasing investment and progressing towards decarbonisation.
Our aim is clear we want a thriving, inclusive and sustainable coach industry that passengers can rely on for years to come and I think honourable members from across the House have pushed us further in that direction today. Thank you, Chair.
10:58
10:58
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you, Mr. Turner. We've heard a wide range of issues raised today accessibility, driver recruitment, planning, international and perhaps most of all, fuel. And I think what really struck me about today's debate was the wide range of local coach companies that were mentioned today, and also how it really is all around the country England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. We've had a magical mystery tour all around the UK, so I think perhaps the coach sector should adopt the slogan everything you need.
Satisfaction guaranteed.
Satisfaction guaranteed.
10:59
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The question is that this House has considered the future of the UK coach industry. As many as are of that opinion, say I of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Order, order! Order. I'll call Nick Thomas-symonds to move the motion. I'll then call the minister to respond. I remember I remind other members that they may only make a speech with the permission of the mover of the motion, and the minister will not be an opportunity for the member in charge to wind up, as is the convention of a 30 minute debate.
Order, order. Nick Thomas-symonds to move the motion.
Order, order. Nick Thomas-symonds to move the motion.
11:00
11:00
11:00
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
This House has considered UK Welsh Government cooperation on tackling wildfires, and I am pleasure. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Turner. I think for the first time, and this debate follows what has been an incredibly difficult summer for many people in my constituency. On the evening of the 19th of July, the wildfire began, and indeed there was a reignition of it on the 10th of August, where it jumped a firebreak and it travelled into a forestry which put houses at risk.
On the 11th of August, the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service declared a major incident due to the significant pressure on resources and indeed, on the 13th of August, there was a military aid to civil authorities request that was submitted by the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. I want to commend the Secretary of State for Wales for agreeing to this request very swiftly. From the 18th of August, there was a containment of the fire, tactical burns, firebreaks, use of helicopter, with the ground continuing to smoulder until there was significant rainfall at the end of August.
And the impact, frankly, has been devastating. Data by the Copernicus Wildfire Emission Watch, analysed by Save the Children, revealed that taurine had the fourth highest intensity of carbon emissions per square kilometre in the world. In July 2026, the smoke travelled as far as Cardiff in the One Direction and Gloucestershire in the other. It affected between 220 and 270 hectares of common land. Pasture, vegetation and peat were burned, with some areas frankly likely to be damaged for years to come.
I spoke to farmers who had livestock losses, disrupted water supply, fencing damage and grazing management issues and loss of earnings and do a summary. Welsh Water have said that damage to apparently remote land can affect drinking water, wildlife and communities beyond the immediate fire area. I will finish this one section. I'll give way. The honourable gentleman. 21 locations have been identified as needing immediate drainage improvements, and that needs to be done before ground stability work can be completed.
I have to say, on the 14th of August, South Wales Fire and Rescue Services said selected appliances recorded 296 Mobilisations 10,000. Well over 10,000 cumulative incident hours and officers recorded 99 mobilisations and over 500 incident hours. So at the height of this, the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service was responding to 14 concurrent wildfires and between the 11th of August and the 1st of September, the service publicly reported 961 grass fires, including 115 wildfires and 26 category three wildfires, which shows the pressure on the fire service will give way briefly to the honourable gentleman.
On the 11th of August, the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service declared a major incident due to the significant pressure on resources and indeed, on the 13th of August, there was a military aid to civil authorities request that was submitted by the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. I want to commend the Secretary of State for Wales for agreeing to this request very swiftly. From the 18th of August, there was a containment of the fire, tactical burns, firebreaks, use of helicopter, with the ground continuing to smoulder until there was significant rainfall at the end of August.
And the impact, frankly, has been devastating. Data by the Copernicus Wildfire Emission Watch, analysed by Save the Children, revealed that taurine had the fourth highest intensity of carbon emissions per square kilometre in the world. In July 2026, the smoke travelled as far as Cardiff in the One Direction and Gloucestershire in the other. It affected between 220 and 270 hectares of common land. Pasture, vegetation and peat were burned, with some areas frankly likely to be damaged for years to come.
I spoke to farmers who had livestock losses, disrupted water supply, fencing damage and grazing management issues and loss of earnings and do a summary. Welsh Water have said that damage to apparently remote land can affect drinking water, wildlife and communities beyond the immediate fire area. I will finish this one section. I'll give way. The honourable gentleman. 21 locations have been identified as needing immediate drainage improvements, and that needs to be done before ground stability work can be completed.
I have to say, on the 14th of August, South Wales Fire and Rescue Services said selected appliances recorded 296 Mobilisations 10,000. Well over 10,000 cumulative incident hours and officers recorded 99 mobilisations and over 500 incident hours. So at the height of this, the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service was responding to 14 concurrent wildfires and between the 11th of August and the 1st of September, the service publicly reported 961 grass fires, including 115 wildfires and 26 category three wildfires, which shows the pressure on the fire service will give way briefly to the honourable gentleman.
11:03
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
I thank him very much for giving way. We've had similar wildfires in my constituency but also in the mournes, and it's been it's been the cooperation between all. But does the honourable gentleman agree that we we we do need a UK wide framework to ensure resources, joint strategies and best practices are shared fluidly between UK government and all the regional administrations so that we can do it better together, learn from each other.
11:03
11:03
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about learning from best practice across the United Kingdom, and I want to just start by paying tribute to the firefighters of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service and indeed, the many other 22 other fire services around the country who came to Glenavon's aid in the summer. I also want to thank Torfaen County Borough Council, Natural Resources Wales, Gwent Police and the 110 military personnel who helped to combat the wildfires.
I want to recognise two those from the homeowners association, local farmers, businesses and indeed constituents who rallied together over the summer in efforts to tackle this devastating event. I also want to thank the Welsh Office Minister. My hon. Friend the member for Cardiff North for visiting Tolverne recently and listening to the concerns of local people, and I say , first and foremost, as I thank all those on the front line, we do have to learn the lessons of this summer because I'm afraid such fires are going to become more frequent, and I think putting in place a proper, structured response for next summer is going to be crucial.
The Fire and Rescue national I will one moment. I will certainly give away the Honourable Lady. The Fire and Rescue National Framework for Wales 2026 identifies climate change as likely to increase the incidence and severity of weather related events, and highlights the possibility of wildfire risk shifting or extending, and I will give way on that note. Liz
I want to recognise two those from the homeowners association, local farmers, businesses and indeed constituents who rallied together over the summer in efforts to tackle this devastating event. I also want to thank the Welsh Office Minister. My hon. Friend the member for Cardiff North for visiting Tolverne recently and listening to the concerns of local people, and I say , first and foremost, as I thank all those on the front line, we do have to learn the lessons of this summer because I'm afraid such fires are going to become more frequent, and I think putting in place a proper, structured response for next summer is going to be crucial.
The Fire and Rescue national I will one moment. I will certainly give away the Honourable Lady. The Fire and Rescue National Framework for Wales 2026 identifies climate change as likely to increase the incidence and severity of weather related events, and highlights the possibility of wildfire risk shifting or extending, and I will give way on that note. Liz
11:05
11:05
Speaker 22
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Speaker 22
most grateful to him for giving way. He's very kind. Military assistance for civil authorities was not available to the wildfires on the Rhinogydd, which could be seen from space. They were so substantial and burnt for two weeks. Would he agree with me that it is welcome that the Prime Minister has indicated an interest in commissioning a UK wide aerial firefighting capability, which would be accessible for devolved governments? Would that be a good result to have out of today's debate?
11:05
11:05
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
Certainly. I'm keen on having very substantial results, both out of this day's debate and indeed the summit. She's absolutely the honourable is absolutely right to highlight the importance of that support and indeed its availability across the United Kingdom. In putting my speech together today, I was assisted by local people. I just want to briefly, if I can quote some of them here, because I think it is important. This is Anthony Watkins, who says unlike in the north of England and Scotland, the fire and rescue services in Wales have less experience of tackling wildfires in large areas of peatland.
Coordinating training with experienced firefighters in England and Scotland would provide invaluable expertise to the Welsh services. This is Sara Warman, who is arguing for a new approach to land management. She says and she is asking the Welsh Government in particular to work alongside land managers to develop a dedicated Welsh wildfire strategy, provide meaningful, post-fire recovery support, review fuel load management policies, strengthen emergency response capability and formally recognise commoners and graziers as operational partners in both wildfire prevention and emergency response.
Indeed, I do think the cooperation, and indeed that's the title of the motion today between the UK government and the Welsh Government to equalise access to substantial recovery, funding and resources is very, very important. And indeed there are at the moment disparities. Just to give an example, Wales has two weeks less of permitted burning season than in England. And of course there will be distinctions. But I think the point that's been made has been made a couple of times now by learning from best practice all around the UK is absolutely crucial.
I also spoke Mr. Turner to the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service in advance of the debate today, and what was said to me by them was, and I quote, we need a sustainable approach to specialist capability and surge funding together with stronger land management. Indeed, cross-government planning. Now, the case I also want to make today is around both restoration and renewal, but also resilience going forward. So that extra support is needed very badly by my local community.
And I want to thank, first of all, Torfaen County Borough Council has already provided £50,000. We also need now others to step up as well. And I just want to give one example of this, because the North York Moors National Park Authority was awarded up to £3.2 million to recover from the devastating peat fires of 2025 through the nature for Climate Peatland Grant scheme. Now, the equivalent scheme in Wales that exists is a lot smaller. At the moment, it can only award about 10 to £250,000.
So I am, of course, urging the Welsh Government, in the first instance, to provide some specific additional funding for the situation in Torva. And what I would say to ministers in Cardiff Bay is to look at how the money for the North York Moors National Park Authority was calculated and provide fair funding for the peat fires we have suffered in Torfaen. Now, I know the UK government is also going to hold a wildfire summit to look at all the issues going forward, and as the Minister would expect, I'll be pressing the UK government to provide appropriate support as well.
I hope the Minister, when she comes to wind up, can commit to coordinating on a regular basis with the Welsh Government and that the forthcoming UK government wildfire Summit that MPs with affected constituencies will be able to attend, but also making sure that those on the front line who have been affected can have their voice heard as well. I will, of course, Eccles.
Coordinating training with experienced firefighters in England and Scotland would provide invaluable expertise to the Welsh services. This is Sara Warman, who is arguing for a new approach to land management. She says and she is asking the Welsh Government in particular to work alongside land managers to develop a dedicated Welsh wildfire strategy, provide meaningful, post-fire recovery support, review fuel load management policies, strengthen emergency response capability and formally recognise commoners and graziers as operational partners in both wildfire prevention and emergency response.
Indeed, I do think the cooperation, and indeed that's the title of the motion today between the UK government and the Welsh Government to equalise access to substantial recovery, funding and resources is very, very important. And indeed there are at the moment disparities. Just to give an example, Wales has two weeks less of permitted burning season than in England. And of course there will be distinctions. But I think the point that's been made has been made a couple of times now by learning from best practice all around the UK is absolutely crucial.
I also spoke Mr. Turner to the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service in advance of the debate today, and what was said to me by them was, and I quote, we need a sustainable approach to specialist capability and surge funding together with stronger land management. Indeed, cross-government planning. Now, the case I also want to make today is around both restoration and renewal, but also resilience going forward. So that extra support is needed very badly by my local community.
And I want to thank, first of all, Torfaen County Borough Council has already provided £50,000. We also need now others to step up as well. And I just want to give one example of this, because the North York Moors National Park Authority was awarded up to £3.2 million to recover from the devastating peat fires of 2025 through the nature for Climate Peatland Grant scheme. Now, the equivalent scheme in Wales that exists is a lot smaller. At the moment, it can only award about 10 to £250,000.
So I am, of course, urging the Welsh Government, in the first instance, to provide some specific additional funding for the situation in Torva. And what I would say to ministers in Cardiff Bay is to look at how the money for the North York Moors National Park Authority was calculated and provide fair funding for the peat fires we have suffered in Torfaen. Now, I know the UK government is also going to hold a wildfire summit to look at all the issues going forward, and as the Minister would expect, I'll be pressing the UK government to provide appropriate support as well.
I hope the Minister, when she comes to wind up, can commit to coordinating on a regular basis with the Welsh Government and that the forthcoming UK government wildfire Summit that MPs with affected constituencies will be able to attend, but also making sure that those on the front line who have been affected can have their voice heard as well. I will, of course, Eccles.
11:09
Speaker 23
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Speaker 23
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and I thank him for bringing forward this really important debate. Of course, I'm not from Wales, but my constituency of Stourbridge did suffer from terrible wildfires over the summer, where 19 homes were completely destroyed and 22 more were severely damaged. Some people are still displaced from that. On the point of the wildfire summit, I was really pleased to be invited to that by the Prime Minister. Does he agree with me that he's absolutely right, that MPs affected should be able to attend and take forward their constituents constituents experiences, but also to ensure that we're not here in another six months time.
Still talking about this.
Still talking about this.
11:09
11:09
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
My friend is absolutely right. I couldn't agree with her more. And indeed, on the point about the voice of local people giving heard again, this is Sarah Warman from my constituency saying this. Wales needs a new approach, one that combines science with practical experience, one that recognises that every common is different, one that treats local land managers as partners and obstacles. Unless these policy policies change, we risk creating greater fuel loads, more frequent wildfires and escalating environmental and economic damage across the Welsh uplands.
So we need to build that resilience and action is needed to help prepare the common and other areas across Wales for the sad reality that this may happen again. Now it could be in the form of managing the land with wild, with wildfire prevention in mind, community training, the purchasing of wildfire specific resources, aerial support to predict and deter wildfires, and also, frankly, up to date personal protective equipment for our firefighters, which is absolutely crucial.
So we need to build that resilience and action is needed to help prepare the common and other areas across Wales for the sad reality that this may happen again. Now it could be in the form of managing the land with wild, with wildfire prevention in mind, community training, the purchasing of wildfire specific resources, aerial support to predict and deter wildfires, and also, frankly, up to date personal protective equipment for our firefighters, which is absolutely crucial.
11:10
11:10
11:10
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you. And I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way and bringing this important debate. And the nature of firefighters work is changing all the time. So I wondered if my right hon. Friend agrees with me that as that changes, it's essential that they have access to modern fit for purpose training facilities. And does he share my concern that training facilities in North Wales have not been substantially modernised since the 1990s?
11:11
11:11
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
Yes, I agree entirely with my hon. Friend and I look. Wildfire prevention requirements and broader environmental policy do need to be aligned. But let me just come to that specific point about fire and rescue, because this is what the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service said to me, this is the scale, concurrency and duration of the response provides strong evidence base for reviewing the specialist wildfire assets that command capacity, the logistics, the communication, the fire control resilience, and also the mutual aid arrangements.
Because we were very lucky to have help from fire services across the country. But we have to make that systematic. We have to have a plan in place for that. And I think all those aspects need to be considered, and the views of people in the agencies involved should be central as well. We have to ensure as well, to the point made by my hon. Friend, that the time that is going to be allotted at the summit to listen in to local people is going to be hugely important.
And there is there is one issue on the Welsh Wildfire Summit, which I know has been held on the 22nd of October this month and it is being held. But I did have the point put to me that we at the moment only have one representative who can attend that from Blaenavon, and a simple question was put to me by them, which was is it expected that two hours is a sufficient amount of time to solve an accumulation of failing to the people of Torbay, and I wonder whether, perhaps putting together the programme for that day, the Welsh Government might be able to just look at ensuring that the voice of people is given a sufficient amount of time to be properly heard and indeed considered.
Look, I do want to give the minister plenty of time to respond to this debate today, but I have to say that today has to be the start of a wider conversation. But it is a conversation that is going to have to take place on a pretty urgent basis, because the lessons that we need to learn from this summer have to have been learned, and our plan needs to be in place to apply before next summer.
Because I'm sad to say that given the climate change that we have, we are likely to see, as we have in continental Europe and other areas, more of these wildfires taking place. So we need to look first, of course, at prevention. We want to do all we can to stop these things from happening in the first place. We then need to look at their management. And whilst people in my constituency did an absolutely remarkable job in doing their best throughout the summer, it was obvious as we were going forward, that there wasn't that original plan in place that is needed to deal with the multiplicity of agencies that have involvement here.
Now, I know the minister well. I know she is very committed to the conversation that we need to have, and I look forward to contributing to this debate myself in the weeks and months ahead. But let us make absolutely sure that this is a conversation with an end point and a set of conclusions that we then actually implement, so that we are in a position to have that systematic approach next summer, including that working together of the governments across the UK.
Thank you, Mr. Minister.
Because we were very lucky to have help from fire services across the country. But we have to make that systematic. We have to have a plan in place for that. And I think all those aspects need to be considered, and the views of people in the agencies involved should be central as well. We have to ensure as well, to the point made by my hon. Friend, that the time that is going to be allotted at the summit to listen in to local people is going to be hugely important.
And there is there is one issue on the Welsh Wildfire Summit, which I know has been held on the 22nd of October this month and it is being held. But I did have the point put to me that we at the moment only have one representative who can attend that from Blaenavon, and a simple question was put to me by them, which was is it expected that two hours is a sufficient amount of time to solve an accumulation of failing to the people of Torbay, and I wonder whether, perhaps putting together the programme for that day, the Welsh Government might be able to just look at ensuring that the voice of people is given a sufficient amount of time to be properly heard and indeed considered.
Look, I do want to give the minister plenty of time to respond to this debate today, but I have to say that today has to be the start of a wider conversation. But it is a conversation that is going to have to take place on a pretty urgent basis, because the lessons that we need to learn from this summer have to have been learned, and our plan needs to be in place to apply before next summer.
Because I'm sad to say that given the climate change that we have, we are likely to see, as we have in continental Europe and other areas, more of these wildfires taking place. So we need to look first, of course, at prevention. We want to do all we can to stop these things from happening in the first place. We then need to look at their management. And whilst people in my constituency did an absolutely remarkable job in doing their best throughout the summer, it was obvious as we were going forward, that there wasn't that original plan in place that is needed to deal with the multiplicity of agencies that have involvement here.
Now, I know the minister well. I know she is very committed to the conversation that we need to have, and I look forward to contributing to this debate myself in the weeks and months ahead. But let us make absolutely sure that this is a conversation with an end point and a set of conclusions that we then actually implement, so that we are in a position to have that systematic approach next summer, including that working together of the governments across the UK.
Thank you, Mr. Minister.
11:14
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
Thank you, Mr. Turner. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today. I'd like to start by thanking my right hon. Friend the member for taurine for raising this really important debate. Wildfires have had a profound impact on communities in Wales and across the UK this year. The scale of this summer's challenge was stark. More than 1300 wildfires have been recorded across England.
I know that Wales were similarly impacted, resulting in around 200 military personnel deployed to South Wales in support of their committed frontline crews protecting their communities. At the height of the activity, 11 major incidents were declared, with some incidents across the UK lasting for more than 30 days, putting an immense strain on frontline and particularly services which were dealing with other emergencies. We owe an immense gratitude to the firefighters, military personnel, local responders, land managers, volunteers and others who worked in difficult and dangerous conditions to protect people, homes, businesses and the natural environment.
I'll give way. I thank my hon. Friend for
I know that Wales were similarly impacted, resulting in around 200 military personnel deployed to South Wales in support of their committed frontline crews protecting their communities. At the height of the activity, 11 major incidents were declared, with some incidents across the UK lasting for more than 30 days, putting an immense strain on frontline and particularly services which were dealing with other emergencies. We owe an immense gratitude to the firefighters, military personnel, local responders, land managers, volunteers and others who worked in difficult and dangerous conditions to protect people, homes, businesses and the natural environment.
I'll give way. I thank my hon. Friend for
11:15
Speaker 26
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Speaker 26
giving way. My Northeast Wales of Clwyd East. We saw the absolute best of community spirit in Halkyn in Windmill, where the community came out to do a post wildfire litter pick and clear up the area. Their efforts, along with the efforts of firefighters and military personnel, were so, so crucial here, as the minister has recognised. Does she agree with me that as well as my honourable friend, putting forward lots of ways that we can improve wildfire responses, the way that these were responded to this time showed the importance of cross-border collaboration on tackling wildfires.
11:16
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that raising that important point. I think this demonstrates that wildfires alone cannot be responded to by just emergency services. It takes the community. It takes many people. It takes voluntary organisations. It takes a number of charities all working together to respond to that and why it's important that we do have an action plan in place, including looking at Cross Border cross-government. Working on this.
11:16
11:16
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
I'm grateful to the minister and she's absolutely right. And of course, if you look at the wildfire management that we had in Torfaen, the deployment of military personnel was done by the UK government. It was done by the Secretary of State for Wales, where something like land management would obviously be devolved to the Welsh Government. Does she agree with me that she's absolutely right about the number of agencies? But we do need a plan that is cross-governmental as well to make sure we have that coordination right.
11:17
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
My right hon. Friend, I will come on to that, but I'll agree with him in that. One of the reasons that the Prime Minister's calling the summit is to essentially address this, and I think the summit will address and consider national capability to respond to this. But hopefully, we want to make sure that we do not have the situation where we are having more wildfires.
11:17
11:17
11:17
Speaker 22
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Speaker 22
From North Wales Fire and Rescue, they were the authority that commissioned the maca, the the military response and Welsh Government then backed it up. But I think the point that we should be making here is that we need some clarity. But the fundamental point, it appears, is that we have a real shortage across the United Kingdom of trained pilots and equipment. They need to bring water to fire situations in remote places. I would be really interested in hearing her response to that too.
11:18
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
I thank the honourable lady for raising that point to point, and I think these are key areas that I'm hoping making sure we have the right people across the table when the summit is held. It can't just be a summit being dictated in Whitehall. It has to be making sure we're working on the ground with the devolved nations to make sure the key people around that table to get the best solutions going forward. Whilst the fire and rescue policy is a devolved one, each of the devolved governments is responsible for the arrangements within their own nations.
The impacts and challenges faced by wildfires remain constant. We work in tandem and we face shared challenges. Wildfires is a good example of where practical cooperation can make a real difference. Drawing on mutual aid, specialist capability and sharing cooperation and learning and planning for complex incidents. We have seen the real value of this coordination in Wales through the development of National Wildfire Capability Pilot earlier this year. This established six specialist teams with vehicles, equipment and expert training ready to be deployed in response to significant incidents.
Not only do the two teams from South Wales form part of this program, but their expertise has also been instrumental in increasing resilience across the entire UK. Despite these advances, the severity of this year's incidents exposes areas where arrangements must and can improve. Those include cross-border coordination, consistent data forecasting, public warnings and the way operational learning is shared. Aerial firefighting is another area that we need to re-examine, including how we most effectively utilize capability across the four nations.
This is vital in ensuring firefighters on the ground get the best possible support where the terrain, scale or access makes their jobs especially difficult. As my right hon. Friend has mentioned, an honourable other honourable members have mentioned. In response to these challenges, the government will hold a wildfire summit this autumn to bring together fire chiefs, the National Fire Chiefs Council, the Fire Brigades Union and other key organisations to turn the lessons from 2026 wildfire session into action.
And I think it's vital to ensure that key organisations and local constituents and members of Parliament are involved in that summit.
The impacts and challenges faced by wildfires remain constant. We work in tandem and we face shared challenges. Wildfires is a good example of where practical cooperation can make a real difference. Drawing on mutual aid, specialist capability and sharing cooperation and learning and planning for complex incidents. We have seen the real value of this coordination in Wales through the development of National Wildfire Capability Pilot earlier this year. This established six specialist teams with vehicles, equipment and expert training ready to be deployed in response to significant incidents.
Not only do the two teams from South Wales form part of this program, but their expertise has also been instrumental in increasing resilience across the entire UK. Despite these advances, the severity of this year's incidents exposes areas where arrangements must and can improve. Those include cross-border coordination, consistent data forecasting, public warnings and the way operational learning is shared. Aerial firefighting is another area that we need to re-examine, including how we most effectively utilize capability across the four nations.
This is vital in ensuring firefighters on the ground get the best possible support where the terrain, scale or access makes their jobs especially difficult. As my right hon. Friend has mentioned, an honourable other honourable members have mentioned. In response to these challenges, the government will hold a wildfire summit this autumn to bring together fire chiefs, the National Fire Chiefs Council, the Fire Brigades Union and other key organisations to turn the lessons from 2026 wildfire session into action.
And I think it's vital to ensure that key organisations and local constituents and members of Parliament are involved in that summit.
11:20
Speaker 27
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Speaker 27
Grateful to her for giving me. This is a matter in which the Select committee will soon be publishing a report. In terms of who is in the room, come that wildfire summit. Will she give me some undertaking that will not just be the organisations, it will be the private individuals, the gamekeepers in particular, the land managers, farmers and shepherds and others who are very often the first line of response to this.
Can we ensure that their voice will be heard at the same time as all the organisations?
Can we ensure that their voice will be heard at the same time as all the organisations?
11:21
11:21
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
I thank the member for raising that. I know that he may be aware that Mhclg and Defra have established a joint governance to develop a wildfire action plan, and there will also be working to look at the attendees. I can't give him who will be attending, but I'm sure that he will make his representations, and I'm sure that I'll pass it on to colleagues for him as well. The government is determined to support those on the front line by ensuring they have the capability, support and partnership they need to meet future challenges.
We must act to reduce the risk of wildfire, improve readiness, strengthen frontline response and support communities to become more resilient. I know that Welsh colleagues will be holding their own summit later this month, and we will continue to work and share insights with the Welsh Government and work together to enhance future readiness. This plan for the National Wildfire Summit will look at the full risk cycle prevention, readiness, response, recovery and adaptation.
Work is already underway to improve forecasting and risk mapping, develop specialist capability and learn from this summer ahead of future periods of heightened risk. Better emergency response is only one part of the answer. Wildfire resilience also depends on what happens before a fire starts. That means better forecasting and public information. Responsible behaviour, proportionate land management and strong local readiness. Land managers. Fire rescue services, local authorities, local resilience forums all have an important role to play.
By working together, they can understand local risks, protect vulnerable places and plan for recovery, as well as a response by acting on the lessons learnt from this year. We can improve readiness, strengthen specialist support and make sure that governments and responders share learning that has practical value.
We must act to reduce the risk of wildfire, improve readiness, strengthen frontline response and support communities to become more resilient. I know that Welsh colleagues will be holding their own summit later this month, and we will continue to work and share insights with the Welsh Government and work together to enhance future readiness. This plan for the National Wildfire Summit will look at the full risk cycle prevention, readiness, response, recovery and adaptation.
Work is already underway to improve forecasting and risk mapping, develop specialist capability and learn from this summer ahead of future periods of heightened risk. Better emergency response is only one part of the answer. Wildfire resilience also depends on what happens before a fire starts. That means better forecasting and public information. Responsible behaviour, proportionate land management and strong local readiness. Land managers. Fire rescue services, local authorities, local resilience forums all have an important role to play.
By working together, they can understand local risks, protect vulnerable places and plan for recovery, as well as a response by acting on the lessons learnt from this year. We can improve readiness, strengthen specialist support and make sure that governments and responders share learning that has practical value.
11:23
11:23
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
I'm grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way to my friend for bringing this debate. And to you, chair, for allowing this very quickly. I briefly met with I met with Ely Fire Station in my constituency, and the firefighters then congratulated them for the hard work that they did. One of the things they asked of me is that with this summit, as well as looking at prevention, we look at deterrents too, because one of the things they said is when they were in attendance at a fire and arsonists then restart the fire, they don't feel that the sentencing laws as currently exist perhaps are strong enough.
So would she perhaps look at that as part of the summit? Prevention is very important, but deterrents for those arsonists also is important.
So would she perhaps look at that as part of the summit? Prevention is very important, but deterrents for those arsonists also is important.
11:24
11:24
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point. And just to reassure him and other members that the agenda, the themes for that summit, none of that has been decided, and I'm sure this is an area that we want to ensure that many members and right honourable members are able to feed in. As I mentioned, both Mhclg and Defra are working on that joint summit, and there'll be many opportunities for colleagues across the House to be able to feed in and ensure that we get the right people at that summit, but most importantly, working on the right areas so we can get the best outcome from that summit.
I also wanted to take this opportunity to highlight the many work of so many people on the ground. In particular, I wanted to thank the soldiers from the Queen's own Gurkha logistic teams, the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, and firefighters up and down the country to help get the relentless fire at wildfire in control . At the height of the summer, an emergency alert reached 55 million phones across England and Wales. This demonstrates the shared nature of the risk and the importance of ensuring we work across governments to make sure our nations are safe.
I also wanted to take this opportunity to highlight the many work of so many people on the ground. In particular, I wanted to thank the soldiers from the Queen's own Gurkha logistic teams, the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, and firefighters up and down the country to help get the relentless fire at wildfire in control . At the height of the summer, an emergency alert reached 55 million phones across England and Wales. This demonstrates the shared nature of the risk and the importance of ensuring we work across governments to make sure our nations are safe.
11:25
11:25
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
I'm grateful to the minister, but I'm sure the minister would share my horror. When we were talking about people on the front line, that our fire fighters didn't have the personal protective equipment that they actually needed for this. And I think as a matter of urgency, I hope she will be able to to pass on to the relevant minister that that is a single practical thing that we really do need to deal with.
11:25
11:25
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
I thank my right hon. Friend for highlighting that. And again, he will know that in addition to different organisations and groups, both the National Fire Chiefs Council, the Fire Brigades Union and firefighters will be at that summit. I'm sure they will make their voices and representations loud and clear. I also wanted to highlight the two constituents. My right hon. Friend mentioned Anthony Watkins and Sarah Woolmer for their work and efforts, making sure we continue to work in cooperation with the UK and Welsh governments, looking at shared learning, looking at resilience going forward and ensuring that the right funding is brought forward to help address these key areas.
By acting, by acting on the lessons learned from this year, we can improve readiness. My Department is continuing and committed to working with the Welsh Government, Scotland and Northern Ireland governments, fire and rescue partners and communities across the UK. In conclusion, once again, I'd like to thank my right hon. Friend for bringing this issue before the House.
By acting, by acting on the lessons learned from this year, we can improve readiness. My Department is continuing and committed to working with the Welsh Government, Scotland and Northern Ireland governments, fire and rescue partners and communities across the UK. In conclusion, once again, I'd like to thank my right hon. Friend for bringing this issue before the House.
11:26
11:26
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
final point, just to get the time. There is also, as I raised in my speech, an issue around how the UK government calculated an amount of money to go to the North York Moors National Park Authority for recovery from a peat fire, which is obviously what was a situation in Torino. The figure is 3.2 million. I wonder if she would undertake to speak to ministerial colleagues, because I've written in to ask how exactly that was calculated, and if the Minister could give me a.
Give me a. Undertake to secure a response to me as to how that is calculated. I'm sure it is something that I could look at in terms of putting to the Welsh Government Minister.
Give me a. Undertake to secure a response to me as to how that is calculated. I'm sure it is something that I could look at in terms of putting to the Welsh Government Minister.
11:27
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
I thank my Right Honourable friend for raising that, and I'll surely take that away and write back to him with further details. But he will be aware that Mhclg also announced the £97 million upgrade to the national resilience assets, including equipment including National Wildfire Response Capability Pilot with specialist firefighters, equipment and training positioned right across the UK. But I will come back to him in writing on that specific point, and I want to pay tribute to everyone who just wandered across the UK and in Wales this summer and the communities impacted on the front line.
Their experience must shape what we do next, and our focus must now be on applying those lessons before the next wildfire season.
Their experience must shape what we do next, and our focus must now be on applying those lessons before the next wildfire season.