Lords Grand Committee
Tuesday 15th September 2026
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16:49
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
At the very end of what I'm about to say in relation to Council of Europe activity. But first of all, as we know, this is to be welcomed because it is the first international binding agreement on on this very important international transnational, whatever you want to call it, issue. And the consequence of manipulation is very complicated indeed. And one of the advantages that we will have now, of course, is being member of the follow up committee called the Cooperation of of Copenhagen, the GOC or something.
It's got a in parlance, but we will actually have membership of that instead of just being associated with it and not being able to take anything forward. And it's worth just taking forward what their the definition in the Council of Europe is of what manipulation means, because many noble lords have used examples of what it might, might, and cannot mean. Just very briefly, the core elements of manipulation are, first of all, that it should be international.
Sorry, international. It's an international arrangement. Arrangement, an act or omission. Secondly, that it's whether it's successful or not, it's an attempt to improperly alter the result or the course of a sports competition. Thirdly, that it's to remove all or part of the unpredictable nature of sports competitions. Next, that it's to obtain an undue advantage for himself or for others. That it is the intention of manipulation is there, even if the intention is unsuccessful and fails to obtain the undue advantage.
And I think this is important, this last one, that the undue advantage always has a financial dimension, either directly or as a consequence of the sports competition. Manipulation. Exploitation of betting markets is just one of the many ways of obtaining an undue financial advantage. So we are dealing here with a multiple and multiple manipulation consequences issue. And it is not straightforward. And it is.
It is, but it has a context. And the context was explained at right beginning by my noble friend or by Baroness Grey-thompson and many others, and Lord Moynihan as well, that it affects what you might call the integrity and the investment in the industry. I'd like to just specify that all the documentation from the Council of Europe has one word on the front. And as a as a means of explanation what it's about.
And that's the word trust, which I think Lord Moynihan was talking about, the reduction in trust. If this happens, trust is, is the password by which it happens. And the second thing, of course, Baroness Craig Thompson mentioned this. We're now talking about minor areas of sporting as well. She called it the minor leagues. Well, as a supporter in small amounts of cash for the Newport County secondary football team. I do have. To
It's got a in parlance, but we will actually have membership of that instead of just being associated with it and not being able to take anything forward. And it's worth just taking forward what their the definition in the Council of Europe is of what manipulation means, because many noble lords have used examples of what it might, might, and cannot mean. Just very briefly, the core elements of manipulation are, first of all, that it should be international.
Sorry, international. It's an international arrangement. Arrangement, an act or omission. Secondly, that it's whether it's successful or not, it's an attempt to improperly alter the result or the course of a sports competition. Thirdly, that it's to remove all or part of the unpredictable nature of sports competitions. Next, that it's to obtain an undue advantage for himself or for others. That it is the intention of manipulation is there, even if the intention is unsuccessful and fails to obtain the undue advantage.
And I think this is important, this last one, that the undue advantage always has a financial dimension, either directly or as a consequence of the sports competition. Manipulation. Exploitation of betting markets is just one of the many ways of obtaining an undue financial advantage. So we are dealing here with a multiple and multiple manipulation consequences issue. And it is not straightforward. And it is.
It is, but it has a context. And the context was explained at right beginning by my noble friend or by Baroness Grey-thompson and many others, and Lord Moynihan as well, that it affects what you might call the integrity and the investment in the industry. I'd like to just specify that all the documentation from the Council of Europe has one word on the front. And as a as a means of explanation what it's about.
And that's the word trust, which I think Lord Moynihan was talking about, the reduction in trust. If this happens, trust is, is the password by which it happens. And the second thing, of course, Baroness Craig Thompson mentioned this. We're now talking about minor areas of sporting as well. She called it the minor leagues. Well, as a supporter in small amounts of cash for the Newport County secondary football team. I do have. To
16:52
16:52
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
£5 a month or £10 a month may be going astray as a member of the supporters club. And also, of course, and Baroness Thompson was right about this. This is about dealing with syndicates. This is a multinational operation. Often the person being asked to manipulate indirectly in one could be in one country. The person seeking and asking that person to enable it could be in another country , and the person seeking to benefit financially from it could be in another country as well.
This is manipulation on a grand scale, and therefore we do need to tackle the the syndicates on the binding nature of member states taking action here. Lord raised them, thankfully, a question which I. If I did. Difficult. I found difficulty in actually stating what the ambition was in this reservation. The UK government was having. Thankfully, he's asked all the right questions. I look forward to seeing every single answer that Lord Rama has put so that I may understand the consequence of the reservation, particularly in respect.
I think of the matter he raised about France's expectation, which would be quite different and perhaps more suitable. But I wait for judgments to be heard around the floor. The most important thing, I think, here before us, is that we are going to have an opportunity to work with the with the body, which actually has some considerable powers. The Taking Forward Committee, which can formulate proposals to further enhance the establishment, operation and development of national platforms.
It has a role in making sure and it's, in its own words, the framing of domestic criminal offences, where each party that's. Each country shall ensure that its domestic laws enable to criminally sanction manipulation of sports competitions when it involves either coercive, coercive control, corrupt or fraudulent practices as defined by its domestic laws. So it will have a broad picture of what is happening in order to ensure that the domestic laws are. And that's a very useful precedent of what should happen.
Perhaps often is that the domestic laws should live up to the intentions that are in a convention of this sort. So I, I think that's very important. Further to Lord Moynihan's point about doping, I also know that from from the the work that is being done by the the follow up body on the convention, that they don't regard doping and manipulation as separate items. They are very, very closely linked indeed. And that combination of is talked about in article 13 of the follow up committee's rules, that they have to look at all of the conventions and all of the issues related to these matters, which are which are in the public domain for, for.
This is manipulation on a grand scale, and therefore we do need to tackle the the syndicates on the binding nature of member states taking action here. Lord raised them, thankfully, a question which I. If I did. Difficult. I found difficulty in actually stating what the ambition was in this reservation. The UK government was having. Thankfully, he's asked all the right questions. I look forward to seeing every single answer that Lord Rama has put so that I may understand the consequence of the reservation, particularly in respect.
I think of the matter he raised about France's expectation, which would be quite different and perhaps more suitable. But I wait for judgments to be heard around the floor. The most important thing, I think, here before us, is that we are going to have an opportunity to work with the with the body, which actually has some considerable powers. The Taking Forward Committee, which can formulate proposals to further enhance the establishment, operation and development of national platforms.
It has a role in making sure and it's, in its own words, the framing of domestic criminal offences, where each party that's. Each country shall ensure that its domestic laws enable to criminally sanction manipulation of sports competitions when it involves either coercive, coercive control, corrupt or fraudulent practices as defined by its domestic laws. So it will have a broad picture of what is happening in order to ensure that the domestic laws are. And that's a very useful precedent of what should happen.
Perhaps often is that the domestic laws should live up to the intentions that are in a convention of this sort. So I, I think that's very important. Further to Lord Moynihan's point about doping, I also know that from from the the work that is being done by the the follow up body on the convention, that they don't regard doping and manipulation as separate items. They are very, very closely linked indeed. And that combination of is talked about in article 13 of the follow up committee's rules, that they have to look at all of the conventions and all of the issues related to these matters, which are which are in the public domain for, for.
17:25
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
My Lords. Thank you very much. And I'm going to continue . The convention is deliberately technology neutral. And this, I hope, addresses a point that several noble Lords have very, very correctly raised. And it allows countries to respond to emerging threats without requiring wholesale changes to the treaty itself. The UK will continue to engage constructively through the conventions governance arrangements to ensure that international cooperation and best practice keep pace with these developments.
The Committee has supported the convention's pragmatic approach and welcomed the government's intention to ratify it. It has also recognised that ratification is expected to create opportunities and benefits for the UK and its international partners, while the costs and burdens are expected to be limited. The committee has also rightly recognised, as has many of the contributors of my noble contributors to this debate today, that ratification is not in itself a complete solution to the manipulation of sports competitions.
The government agrees with this. We know that tackling this threat requires continued work domestically and internationally, including action against unregulated betting markets and continued cooperation between governments, regulators, law enforcement and sports bodies. And I thank my noble Lords for the emphasis you have placed on the responsibility of sports bodies. The committee has also made a number of observations about the government's explanatory memorandum and future treaty scrutiny processes.
We will consider these carefully and respond to the Committee formally. I would like just quickly, if I have a little bit of time to respond to some of the other points that have been raised, and I apologise if we are unable to respond adequately to the points that have been raised on the Crag process. And I will return to that, if I may. With those that have so wisely, Lord Johnson and.
And my noble friend Lord Stevenson raised those points, and the others as well. But I would like to refer to the very important point that my noble Baroness Grey-thompson raised on the issue of modern slavery and sport trafficking. The example of 15000 young players from West Africa. I feel that this is a an extraordinarily important area. It's not absolutely relevant to the convention of the Council of Europe, but it is an area that I would like to raise with colleagues in the Home Office and I would be happy to pursue, as it is a point of urgency and priority here.
I'm also, I'm afraid, going to suggest to my noble Lord that I report back on the potential or possible tensions between the the Fcdo and the DCMs and see if we can get some clarity on those points. I'd like to quote, if I may, from the noble Lord Moynihan, that trust is the entire currency of sport. Yeah. And that this is has to remain the gold standard to which we are all aspiring.
And I think that your point about the importance of sporting governing bodies taking a lead in this area is absolutely vital for all of us. It is it is very important for all of us that we are all partners. And of course, we have listed all the partners who have to be involved. But the leadership must come from the sports governing bodies and indeed you indeed noble lords, have correctly drawn attention.
In particular, my noble Lord Parkinson, to the importance of international governing bodies and the nations that are potentially seeking or actually managing to win international events, because they are in a very powerful position to be a force for good. And those awarding those the glory and honor of an international major sporting event, a lot of power to raise the standards through making this a vital part of the process for selection. I apologize if there are other points that I should have raised, but have not.
I'd like to end by offering my noble Lord Hannay good news, which is ratification happens straight away after this process, which is a nice, clear answer to your question. And in closing remarks very briefly, my Lords, the government considers that the UK already has strong domestic arrangements for manipulation. Ratification will formalise those arrangements internationally, strengthen our participation in the conventions governance and help us cooperate more effectively with international partners. It will also allow the UK to continue contributing its expertise to the international effort to protect the integrity of sport, and to respond to a threat that is increasingly global in nature.
The government welcomes the committee's scrutiny and its support for ratifying the McAllen convention. We look forward to continuing to work with our international partners and stakeholders across sport, gambling, law enforcement to protect the integrity of sport .
The Committee has supported the convention's pragmatic approach and welcomed the government's intention to ratify it. It has also recognised that ratification is expected to create opportunities and benefits for the UK and its international partners, while the costs and burdens are expected to be limited. The committee has also rightly recognised, as has many of the contributors of my noble contributors to this debate today, that ratification is not in itself a complete solution to the manipulation of sports competitions.
The government agrees with this. We know that tackling this threat requires continued work domestically and internationally, including action against unregulated betting markets and continued cooperation between governments, regulators, law enforcement and sports bodies. And I thank my noble Lords for the emphasis you have placed on the responsibility of sports bodies. The committee has also made a number of observations about the government's explanatory memorandum and future treaty scrutiny processes.
We will consider these carefully and respond to the Committee formally. I would like just quickly, if I have a little bit of time to respond to some of the other points that have been raised, and I apologise if we are unable to respond adequately to the points that have been raised on the Crag process. And I will return to that, if I may. With those that have so wisely, Lord Johnson and.
And my noble friend Lord Stevenson raised those points, and the others as well. But I would like to refer to the very important point that my noble Baroness Grey-thompson raised on the issue of modern slavery and sport trafficking. The example of 15000 young players from West Africa. I feel that this is a an extraordinarily important area. It's not absolutely relevant to the convention of the Council of Europe, but it is an area that I would like to raise with colleagues in the Home Office and I would be happy to pursue, as it is a point of urgency and priority here.
I'm also, I'm afraid, going to suggest to my noble Lord that I report back on the potential or possible tensions between the the Fcdo and the DCMs and see if we can get some clarity on those points. I'd like to quote, if I may, from the noble Lord Moynihan, that trust is the entire currency of sport. Yeah. And that this is has to remain the gold standard to which we are all aspiring.
And I think that your point about the importance of sporting governing bodies taking a lead in this area is absolutely vital for all of us. It is it is very important for all of us that we are all partners. And of course, we have listed all the partners who have to be involved. But the leadership must come from the sports governing bodies and indeed you indeed noble lords, have correctly drawn attention.
In particular, my noble Lord Parkinson, to the importance of international governing bodies and the nations that are potentially seeking or actually managing to win international events, because they are in a very powerful position to be a force for good. And those awarding those the glory and honor of an international major sporting event, a lot of power to raise the standards through making this a vital part of the process for selection. I apologize if there are other points that I should have raised, but have not.
I'd like to end by offering my noble Lord Hannay good news, which is ratification happens straight away after this process, which is a nice, clear answer to your question. And in closing remarks very briefly, my Lords, the government considers that the UK already has strong domestic arrangements for manipulation. Ratification will formalise those arrangements internationally, strengthen our participation in the conventions governance and help us cooperate more effectively with international partners. It will also allow the UK to continue contributing its expertise to the international effort to protect the integrity of sport, and to respond to a threat that is increasingly global in nature.
The government welcomes the committee's scrutiny and its support for ratifying the McAllen convention. We look forward to continuing to work with our international partners and stakeholders across sport, gambling, law enforcement to protect the integrity of sport .
17:31
17:31
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, firstly, my Lords, thank you for a first class debate. I feel, as I always do when I'm in my own committee, deeply humbled by the incredible level of expertise around me, none more so supplemented so well by Olympians and other enthusiasts and knowledgeable individuals to contribute to what is such an important and if I may add, the paeans of praise to Baroness McKenzie of Sherwood is this. This is your first Grand Committee outing. The noble Baroness Grand Committee outing.
I'll just say, and may I congratulate the Minister on using wonderful legalese, the phrase consider carefully and respond accordingly. The Minister has already mastered. But then ruined it. Unfortunately, at the end by giving a clear answer, telling us the very good news, which was raised quite rightly by Lord Stevenson, by Lord Moynihan, by Lord Hannay and I think by Lord Parkinson as well, about the importance of ratification. It has taken a very long time to get us to this point, and I'm extremely pleased that when this process concludes, we will ratify the treaty.
If I may just dwell on a few very small number of points, I think it's important to give credit to noble lords who've made such a contribution. I think Lord Addington raised a very relevant. The vulnerability of many sports people. He is on the way up and on the way down, and I was very touched by Moses Schwab's testimony to us, his witness evidence, where he had a glittering career ahead of him.
He had lost his position, he'd started to be relegated and he became vulnerable. And I think Baroness Grey Thompson's illustration of sport trafficking at sport trafficking at its most extreme, but actually the vulnerability of so many of these young kids. And this is how his evidence unfolded. He was extremely young, not a huge education, very vulnerable. And the thin end of the wedge process in his case led him to effectively ruining his life. And I want to pay tribute to him for having, I think, got that back on track.
I think, Lord, I'm very pleased that you raised these issues relating to the principle of the jurisdiction. I raised them as well. This is a long term issue. I'm sure the Baroness minister will continue to review that and come back to us. And Lord Moynihan, greatly appreciate your very sensible solutions to some of these problems. I mean, I think at the end of the day, we were surprised at how significant this issue is, how it's continuing to grow far more rapidly than I think people realise.
This is, I think, one one of my colleagues, Lord honey, maybe Lord Parkinson, pointed out this is a $1 trillion or €1 trillion or whatever currency it is in is significant, large. And if this is to. If this treaty is to be successfully applied, there needs to be more money put into enforcement. It's really as simple as that and more coordination. And I think we have to be realistic. And this isn't a party political point.
All governments are going to have this issue. And I think we we must ensure that we're going to sign these treaties. We are quite vigorous about making sure that we have the right money in order to deal with it. Very clearly a global issue. I know the issue of the Council of Europe is an important one. I'm not going to get into the debate on that now, but I will say that it has to be beyond simply the Council of Europe.
This is a global problem. The countries that were alerted to us in our witness statements were not France and Belgium and the UK, although there is clearly match fixing, the real issues come from crossing borders and come from other nations, such as in Latin America particularly and Asia. And I think Baroness Coffee raised the important point about other principles such as esports and prediction. Market is now so much more than simply placing a bet with a bookmaker on a race.
This is a highly complicated. In fact, someone suggested on the way up here, there should be a bet on. On the spread of who got here first, the minister or the opposition spokesperson, I just. But the point is that with esports and other types of sports and other types of betting, the complexity now has multiplied on itself. And we really would call upon the government to make sure that we're not backward looking. We're thinking really innovatively about how to tackle these problems.
And as Lord chairman rightly said, this committee will continue its dogged scrutiny and ensure that the correct process is a beacon of parliamentary scrutiny of the government's ability to enter into agreements that will benefit us all, which we believe the convention will. And I think I beg to move.
I'll just say, and may I congratulate the Minister on using wonderful legalese, the phrase consider carefully and respond accordingly. The Minister has already mastered. But then ruined it. Unfortunately, at the end by giving a clear answer, telling us the very good news, which was raised quite rightly by Lord Stevenson, by Lord Moynihan, by Lord Hannay and I think by Lord Parkinson as well, about the importance of ratification. It has taken a very long time to get us to this point, and I'm extremely pleased that when this process concludes, we will ratify the treaty.
If I may just dwell on a few very small number of points, I think it's important to give credit to noble lords who've made such a contribution. I think Lord Addington raised a very relevant. The vulnerability of many sports people. He is on the way up and on the way down, and I was very touched by Moses Schwab's testimony to us, his witness evidence, where he had a glittering career ahead of him.
He had lost his position, he'd started to be relegated and he became vulnerable. And I think Baroness Grey Thompson's illustration of sport trafficking at sport trafficking at its most extreme, but actually the vulnerability of so many of these young kids. And this is how his evidence unfolded. He was extremely young, not a huge education, very vulnerable. And the thin end of the wedge process in his case led him to effectively ruining his life. And I want to pay tribute to him for having, I think, got that back on track.
I think, Lord, I'm very pleased that you raised these issues relating to the principle of the jurisdiction. I raised them as well. This is a long term issue. I'm sure the Baroness minister will continue to review that and come back to us. And Lord Moynihan, greatly appreciate your very sensible solutions to some of these problems. I mean, I think at the end of the day, we were surprised at how significant this issue is, how it's continuing to grow far more rapidly than I think people realise.
This is, I think, one one of my colleagues, Lord honey, maybe Lord Parkinson, pointed out this is a $1 trillion or €1 trillion or whatever currency it is in is significant, large. And if this is to. If this treaty is to be successfully applied, there needs to be more money put into enforcement. It's really as simple as that and more coordination. And I think we have to be realistic. And this isn't a party political point.
All governments are going to have this issue. And I think we we must ensure that we're going to sign these treaties. We are quite vigorous about making sure that we have the right money in order to deal with it. Very clearly a global issue. I know the issue of the Council of Europe is an important one. I'm not going to get into the debate on that now, but I will say that it has to be beyond simply the Council of Europe.
This is a global problem. The countries that were alerted to us in our witness statements were not France and Belgium and the UK, although there is clearly match fixing, the real issues come from crossing borders and come from other nations, such as in Latin America particularly and Asia. And I think Baroness Coffee raised the important point about other principles such as esports and prediction. Market is now so much more than simply placing a bet with a bookmaker on a race.
This is a highly complicated. In fact, someone suggested on the way up here, there should be a bet on. On the spread of who got here first, the minister or the opposition spokesperson, I just. But the point is that with esports and other types of sports and other types of betting, the complexity now has multiplied on itself. And we really would call upon the government to make sure that we're not backward looking. We're thinking really innovatively about how to tackle these problems.
And as Lord chairman rightly said, this committee will continue its dogged scrutiny and ensure that the correct process is a beacon of parliamentary scrutiny of the government's ability to enter into agreements that will benefit us all, which we believe the convention will. And I think I beg to move.
17:36