Westminster Hall
Wednesday 9th September 2026
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09:30
09:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you, Sir Alec. And it's a pleasure to be serving under your chairmanship today. I beg to move that this House has considered government support for public confidence in the police. And I want to start by noting the fact that the policing Minister cannot be with us today because she is attending the funeral of PC Matthew Blades, who so tragically died in Cleveland in the collision that we're all very sadly familiar with.
So I want to pay tribute to those two officers who died in the line of duty. To all of the Cleveland officers who continue serving in spite of what has happened, and to the whole community who I know have really rallied around both those families, but also the officers who they now more than ever appreciate and want to show that appreciation. So I just wanted to note that and thank the Minister for Immigration and Asylum. AM I right in saying for for attending in her place, I will.
So I want to pay tribute to those two officers who died in the line of duty. To all of the Cleveland officers who continue serving in spite of what has happened, and to the whole community who I know have really rallied around both those families, but also the officers who they now more than ever appreciate and want to show that appreciation. So I just wanted to note that and thank the Minister for Immigration and Asylum. AM I right in saying for for attending in her place, I will.
09:31
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
For giving way and for paying tribute to our incredibly brave police officers in Cleveland who have had an extraordinarily difficult couple of weeks but have dealt with that situation with extreme professionalism. One of the challenges they have is that since 2010, Cleveland has 220 fewer officers. They are actually at the bottom of the table for police cuts. So it's extraordinary how that force has approached this situation with such professionalism, bravery and courage despite that situation.
But does he agree with me that the funding formula needs to urgently be reviewed so that we're not penalising areas of high deprivation? Jonathan.
But does he agree with me that the funding formula needs to urgently be reviewed so that we're not penalising areas of high deprivation? Jonathan.
09:32
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and he raises a really important point. The police funding formula is long overdue for reform, and I think this incident can actually accelerate us moving towards that. We know that Middlesbrough is a high crime area. It's very deprived area and that needs to be reflected in the formula. So I look forward to working with him to push that forward there and across the country.
So I've called this debate on public confidence in the police , because over the last decade and a half, public confidence in the police has been heading in the wrong direction. Whether we look at the crime survey, victim satisfaction surveys or polling trackers from companies like YouGov, the trend has been downward. And this is worrying because if a significant proportion of the public were to no longer see the the police as legitimate, we would be headed down a very dark path.
Now, I don't want to spend my whole speech lamenting the then governing Conservative Party's handling of policing, cutting 20,000 officers, then hurriedly returning officer numbers to the same level when they realized what a serious error they had made, constantly shifting the stance on stop and search tightening, then loosening, and the full circle performed on police recruitment routes and so on. But this recent history is critical to understanding the position policing finds itself in today. I know what a disastrous impact this had on neighbourhood policing, because I was there serving as a PC sergeant and inspector during those years, and just at the time that policing was being, let's say, deprioritised by government policing, demand changed significantly.
High harm offences committed behind closed doors as opposed to in the street were reported in much higher numbers thanks to changing societal attitudes, improved police culture and high profile historical cases. Increasing awareness domestic abuse reports to the police doubled in ten years, sexual offences rocketed, reports of and child abuse became much more commonly reported. It is a good thing that people now feel able to report these offences and police are taking them seriously.
But this was a perfect storm. Just at the time, policing was losing not just thousands of officers but thousands of experienced officers. A huge wave of this high harm demand emerged while policing was, and in some cases still is, equipped with data systems from the 1970s. It's absolutely right that investigating these high harm offences is now core policing business. But we must acknowledge that huge change to policing demand, which has reduced police visibility on the streets.
We must acknowledge that that has reduced police visibility on the streets, which is a key determinant of public confidence. I will.
So I've called this debate on public confidence in the police , because over the last decade and a half, public confidence in the police has been heading in the wrong direction. Whether we look at the crime survey, victim satisfaction surveys or polling trackers from companies like YouGov, the trend has been downward. And this is worrying because if a significant proportion of the public were to no longer see the the police as legitimate, we would be headed down a very dark path.
Now, I don't want to spend my whole speech lamenting the then governing Conservative Party's handling of policing, cutting 20,000 officers, then hurriedly returning officer numbers to the same level when they realized what a serious error they had made, constantly shifting the stance on stop and search tightening, then loosening, and the full circle performed on police recruitment routes and so on. But this recent history is critical to understanding the position policing finds itself in today. I know what a disastrous impact this had on neighbourhood policing, because I was there serving as a PC sergeant and inspector during those years, and just at the time that policing was being, let's say, deprioritised by government policing, demand changed significantly.
High harm offences committed behind closed doors as opposed to in the street were reported in much higher numbers thanks to changing societal attitudes, improved police culture and high profile historical cases. Increasing awareness domestic abuse reports to the police doubled in ten years, sexual offences rocketed, reports of and child abuse became much more commonly reported. It is a good thing that people now feel able to report these offences and police are taking them seriously.
But this was a perfect storm. Just at the time, policing was losing not just thousands of officers but thousands of experienced officers. A huge wave of this high harm demand emerged while policing was, and in some cases still is, equipped with data systems from the 1970s. It's absolutely right that investigating these high harm offences is now core policing business. But we must acknowledge that huge change to policing demand, which has reduced police visibility on the streets.
We must acknowledge that that has reduced police visibility on the streets, which is a key determinant of public confidence. I will.
09:35
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Go to the honourable member for giving way and I recognise his police service. I myself served for 12 years in Lothian and Borders Police, and does he accept that? One of the challenges that we have is that there is a continual churn within police roles now, which means that communities do not know their police officers and their police officers do not know them. And culturally, is that something that you think the police service need to tackle?
09:35
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I wholeheartedly agree with the honourable member, and it's something I press on my local officers. There is nothing more annoying now as an MP, but often for residents to find that your local inspector has changed for the third time in a year, or your borough commander or whatever it is. It's so frustrating and that is something that policing can control. So I would wholeheartedly agree with that. Police funding is not my focus today.
I will leave colleagues with one thought about it, though, given the police are now receiving so many reports of high harm crime, which is complex and time consuming to investigate compared to what they did 20 years ago, how could. They
I will leave colleagues with one thought about it, though, given the police are now receiving so many reports of high harm crime, which is complex and time consuming to investigate compared to what they did 20 years ago, how could. They
09:51
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
in this chamber today have lived through physically and as elected representatives, but also as as citizens of Northern Ireland? Now, the emphasis on paramilitary activity has decreased greatly, but there's still a constant threat from that small portion of militant Republicans who seem to want to bring and take us back to to the bad old days, we had just the the police seem to be able to have at this stage got the better of them.
And they. They seem to have been able to catch them. But before they do most things. A bomb was found in South Armagh . Just over the last weekend. We've had attacks in. In Belfast and Lisburn, where the IRA militant group seemed to be intent. So the. The issue for us in Northern Ireland is we still have a terrorist campaign. While greatly reduced, still has the the ability to to bring chaos.
I conclude with this, Sir Alec. We must give our local teams that say Chief Superintendent Johnson and Superintendent Haslett and the Chief Constable the funding that they need to embed themselves in our communities, while ensuring that policing priorities return to common sense core law enforcement. We need to police crime and not offences. And that message must come from this place today and resonate throughout every policing district within this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
And I believe that it must begin today. Thanks so much. Good.
And they. They seem to have been able to catch them. But before they do most things. A bomb was found in South Armagh . Just over the last weekend. We've had attacks in. In Belfast and Lisburn, where the IRA militant group seemed to be intent. So the. The issue for us in Northern Ireland is we still have a terrorist campaign. While greatly reduced, still has the the ability to to bring chaos.
I conclude with this, Sir Alec. We must give our local teams that say Chief Superintendent Johnson and Superintendent Haslett and the Chief Constable the funding that they need to embed themselves in our communities, while ensuring that policing priorities return to common sense core law enforcement. We need to police crime and not offences. And that message must come from this place today and resonate throughout every policing district within this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
And I believe that it must begin today. Thanks so much. Good.
09:52
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Thank you, sir Alec, can I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend for Pendle for securing this debate, and for the way in which he approached the subject, and I join him and my hon. Friend for Middlesbrough. Middlesbrough South, in paying tribute to the police officers from the Cleveland Force who lost their lives so tragically just recently. I want to raise 2 or 3 points about on this on this topic, about the question of the confidence in the police and the role of of government.
I think too often the police get criticised for the failings of other agencies. And I want to come on to talk about that issue in the particular context of my constituency in in Harrow. I also think that we need to keep under very close scrutiny as as others have alluded to already in the debate, the funding in in the case of Harrow for the Metropolitan Police. And then I want to suggest that the Metropolitan Police perhaps don't get the recognition across the whole of the UK for the hugely important work they do in tackling national and international national crime, and perhaps more recognition.
Recognition of that is required in the in the funding formula. And then perhaps just lastly, to to dwell on the issue of online crime and the hatred that gets stirred up online, which can make the job of the police much more, much more difficult. I, I'm struck by the criticism that I have heard in, in my constituency about about the police. And so often when one gets into the issues that people are concerned about, it's actually the responsibility of other agencies locally and the police having to respond to the failures to take action by those other agencies.
That has led to the criticism of the police. So in particular, in Harrow, we saw recently an enforcement teams contracted out to an organisation called Kingdom. The responsibility for that contract was with Harrow Harrow Council. There was a widespread criticism of some of the staff that were employed by by Kingdom and the way in which they tried to levy levy fines on a number of young people in the area of South Harrow, in my in my constituency, that council could have taken a much tougher action against against Kingdom.
They could have used some of the funding from that contract to pay for additional police officers instead of, again, just contracting out out the work to people who are far less well trained than, than the police. So even at this late stage, I hope Harrow Council will take the opportunity to use some of the funding they have got and are spending on this contract with with Kingdom to fund additional police officers. But we need to see a local council such as Harrow, investing more in youth facilities to help with diverting young people away from crime.
Some of the CCTV projects in my constituency, which have been turned down for approval by Harrow Council in Wealdstone, in South Harrow and in central Harrow, should should now get get funding and it's not clear to me that the Council are investing in drug addiction services or in tackling street homelessness, and in tackling poor performance by the owners of large blocks of flats in preventing anti anti-social behaviour. So more scrutiny by government of the performance of local authorities in tackling anti-social behaviour at local level would.
It seems to me, certainly in the case of Harrow Council, be be very, very timely. The Metropolitan Police, secondly, saw a £1 billion cut in real terms in their funding between 2010 and 2014. It led to a marked drop in policing in in my constituency, but across London, London more widely, the current mayor of London as well. Now. On a
I think too often the police get criticised for the failings of other agencies. And I want to come on to talk about that issue in the particular context of my constituency in in Harrow. I also think that we need to keep under very close scrutiny as as others have alluded to already in the debate, the funding in in the case of Harrow for the Metropolitan Police. And then I want to suggest that the Metropolitan Police perhaps don't get the recognition across the whole of the UK for the hugely important work they do in tackling national and international national crime, and perhaps more recognition.
Recognition of that is required in the in the funding formula. And then perhaps just lastly, to to dwell on the issue of online crime and the hatred that gets stirred up online, which can make the job of the police much more, much more difficult. I, I'm struck by the criticism that I have heard in, in my constituency about about the police. And so often when one gets into the issues that people are concerned about, it's actually the responsibility of other agencies locally and the police having to respond to the failures to take action by those other agencies.
That has led to the criticism of the police. So in particular, in Harrow, we saw recently an enforcement teams contracted out to an organisation called Kingdom. The responsibility for that contract was with Harrow Harrow Council. There was a widespread criticism of some of the staff that were employed by by Kingdom and the way in which they tried to levy levy fines on a number of young people in the area of South Harrow, in my in my constituency, that council could have taken a much tougher action against against Kingdom.
They could have used some of the funding from that contract to pay for additional police officers instead of, again, just contracting out out the work to people who are far less well trained than, than the police. So even at this late stage, I hope Harrow Council will take the opportunity to use some of the funding they have got and are spending on this contract with with Kingdom to fund additional police officers. But we need to see a local council such as Harrow, investing more in youth facilities to help with diverting young people away from crime.
Some of the CCTV projects in my constituency, which have been turned down for approval by Harrow Council in Wealdstone, in South Harrow and in central Harrow, should should now get get funding and it's not clear to me that the Council are investing in drug addiction services or in tackling street homelessness, and in tackling poor performance by the owners of large blocks of flats in preventing anti anti-social behaviour. So more scrutiny by government of the performance of local authorities in tackling anti-social behaviour at local level would.
It seems to me, certainly in the case of Harrow Council, be be very, very timely. The Metropolitan Police, secondly, saw a £1 billion cut in real terms in their funding between 2010 and 2014. It led to a marked drop in policing in in my constituency, but across London, London more widely, the current mayor of London as well. Now. On a
10:11
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
more structural note, Sir Alec, I wonder whether the Minister will today provide an update to the previous government. And I believe there are specific issues in Labour's London date on the Hogan-howe review and the government's response to it, and in particular, when we're looking at structures and police boundaries, I wonder whether she will be able to update us on whether police force boundaries are now due to match the boundaries of regional mayors, because if we're looking to hold to account the people who are responsible for policing, it's important that we do that.
That's of particular interest to rural areas. Sir Alec In recent years, we have also seen rural crime become seriously organised and persistent in nature. Yet these are often overlooked. The crime networks can be harder to detect and to prosecute. So will the minister commit to giving rural police forces the proper resources necessary to clamp down on organised crime operating in the countryside? Now, the honourable member for Plendil and Clitheroe mentioned public order and free speech, and I think he raised a really important point here.
Now Big Brother Watch this weekend revealed that over 6000 people have been arrested over the last five years for communication offences. Now there are some high profile cases, Sir Alex, such as that of Lucy Connolly, who were held up by the hard right as martyrs of free speech. But they are nothing of the sort. They have rightly been prosecuted, even if some people might have valid questions to ask about the severity of the punishment. But despite that, the facts seem very clear.
They suggest that too many people are arrested not for committing crimes, but for making tasteless online jokes, offering controversial opinions on social media or for non-violent protests. Now it is as a result of legislative failure that the police are not able to do their job properly here. That undermines trust in the police. It undermines the work of officers whose job is to keep us safe. It is not their job to intervene in online arguments that would not trouble us if they happened in verbal form, in the dog and duck.
That in itself is a threat to faith in policing, but also the very fabric of our liberal democracy. And it gives space for people like Reform's James Orr to make bizarre comparisons between free speech in the UK and Russia, peddling daft conspiracy theories to undermine British democracy in the process. And we must all, in this place, stand up against that. Now, can the Minister confirm, in light of the Big Brother watch report, what the government is doing to work with police and crime commissioners and Chief Constable's to clarify the legal position, giving officers the greater clarity in their front line work and to protect British free speech rights.
Now, I mentioned earlier on, Sir Alec, the issue with the right, who were previously the big defenders of policing and crime and order. Now they're the people who traditionally have told us that they stand up for those. But the corrosive narrative of two tier policing has crept into that side of politics where they once backed the police. They now tell us that the police are part of the problem by using that daft phrase to tear.
That places the police alongside those who would do us harm. It is a dangerous narrative. It is one that we, on the moderate centre of politics, must address. Finally, Sir Alec support must be given and extended to those who work within the police, where they bravely put their lives and well-being on the line every day. Mind has reported that 91% of police officers report mental ill health. That is a shocking statistic and it undermines the work that they're able to do.
So let's ensure that as part of the efforts to boost trust in policing, we're able to support police officers to improving their working conditions, and the support available is vital to ensuring that we have the police force that we need, staffed by brilliant police officers, and that they're able to fulfil their vital role to keep us safe.
That's of particular interest to rural areas. Sir Alec In recent years, we have also seen rural crime become seriously organised and persistent in nature. Yet these are often overlooked. The crime networks can be harder to detect and to prosecute. So will the minister commit to giving rural police forces the proper resources necessary to clamp down on organised crime operating in the countryside? Now, the honourable member for Plendil and Clitheroe mentioned public order and free speech, and I think he raised a really important point here.
Now Big Brother Watch this weekend revealed that over 6000 people have been arrested over the last five years for communication offences. Now there are some high profile cases, Sir Alex, such as that of Lucy Connolly, who were held up by the hard right as martyrs of free speech. But they are nothing of the sort. They have rightly been prosecuted, even if some people might have valid questions to ask about the severity of the punishment. But despite that, the facts seem very clear.
They suggest that too many people are arrested not for committing crimes, but for making tasteless online jokes, offering controversial opinions on social media or for non-violent protests. Now it is as a result of legislative failure that the police are not able to do their job properly here. That undermines trust in the police. It undermines the work of officers whose job is to keep us safe. It is not their job to intervene in online arguments that would not trouble us if they happened in verbal form, in the dog and duck.
That in itself is a threat to faith in policing, but also the very fabric of our liberal democracy. And it gives space for people like Reform's James Orr to make bizarre comparisons between free speech in the UK and Russia, peddling daft conspiracy theories to undermine British democracy in the process. And we must all, in this place, stand up against that. Now, can the Minister confirm, in light of the Big Brother watch report, what the government is doing to work with police and crime commissioners and Chief Constable's to clarify the legal position, giving officers the greater clarity in their front line work and to protect British free speech rights.
Now, I mentioned earlier on, Sir Alec, the issue with the right, who were previously the big defenders of policing and crime and order. Now they're the people who traditionally have told us that they stand up for those. But the corrosive narrative of two tier policing has crept into that side of politics where they once backed the police. They now tell us that the police are part of the problem by using that daft phrase to tear.
That places the police alongside those who would do us harm. It is a dangerous narrative. It is one that we, on the moderate centre of politics, must address. Finally, Sir Alec support must be given and extended to those who work within the police, where they bravely put their lives and well-being on the line every day. Mind has reported that 91% of police officers report mental ill health. That is a shocking statistic and it undermines the work that they're able to do.
So let's ensure that as part of the efforts to boost trust in policing, we're able to support police officers to improving their working conditions, and the support available is vital to ensuring that we have the police force that we need, staffed by brilliant police officers, and that they're able to fulfil their vital role to keep us safe.
10:14
10:14
10:14
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I first start by thanking you, Sir Alec, for chairing this debate so very well today and also welcoming the minister to her place and congratulating her on her appointment. I know she's stepping in for the shadow policing Minister today, but nonetheless, I'd like to put on my record on the record my congratulations for her elevation. Can I also commend the honourable member for Pendle and Clitheroe for his service first, but also for securing this very important debate.
It's a subject which I'm aware he's exceptionally active on, both as a friend of the police who argues for the importance of supporting our officers quite rightly, and as a constructive critic, which I'm sure perhaps is less appreciated amongst certain forces. The title of this debate, secured by the honourable member, is instructive. Debate centered around the police can all too often focus on their own actions, something which we have to undoubtedly consider. But we must also consider the actions of government, the policies we debate and the vote and vote for in this place, vote on in this place can directly impact how the public feels about the police, and I am afraid that in some cases, as the honourable member for Cheltenham so eloquently outlined, can cause support to be undermined, achieving the combination of our police forces operating effectively and justly, working in the interests of the country , is one of the critical foundations of policing.
As the second of the nine principles of policing set out, we must always recognise that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect. When this principle is not properly thought about, it is inevitable that public confidence is lost and the quality of our policing is diminished. There is a reciprocal relationship between the police and the public that is necessary, but we need to appreciate that the best way to achieve success is by having effective forces, preventing crime and delivering justice for the victims of crime.
In the two years of this Labour government, there are many issues that have challenged public confidence in policing. While I will be cautious of delving into the details of some of those, given that investigations remain ongoing into the conduct of forces, incidents like the Henry Novak murder, the decisions made pertaining to the banning of Maccabi Tel Aviv fans, and the inappropriate use of Non-crime hate incidents all have raised concerns. Only recently we heard that the families of the victims of Valdo Calkins attack attacks in Nottingham said that the police did not tell them that a man who had taken an interest in them had a history of violence when he attempted to visit them, leading to an I o PC complaint.
Furthermore, the heinous death of Sarah Everard exposed the very worst of the Metropolitan Police and rightly made it clear that changes were required. In July, his Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services report on the force pointed to progress, but still noted that substantial work needed to improve vetting, professional standards and anti-corruption arrangements. This list of incidents fails to fully scratch the surface of the extent of complaints and problems that have been experienced amongst forces.
However, we know only too well how local and national failures can undermine them. If we combine this with the feeling many have that the crimes they experience are not followed up on. It is little surprise that across many parts of our society, trust is eroding. We must work to improve this trust by improving our police forces. Well, the last few years have seen stability in the Iopc survey of perceptions of the police, and more people feel positive than negative towards the police by a rate of 2 to 1, at a rate of 49% in 2020 425.
Should still be a cause. That that number should still be a cause for concern . With much higher levels of police confidence in this country. Worryingly, the positive percentage falls further when asked about the individuals local force and further still when asked about the Metropolitan Police, an unsurprising number given the decreases in the Public Attitude Survey produced by the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime. These numbers are less surprising when we consider that just 8.5% of crimes were solved in the year to March 2026.
This is an extraordinary 92% of reported crimes going unresolved, leaving many people wondering what to do when they face criminal activity, a problem that is compounded by crime increasing by 10% and anti-social behaviour going up 15% in the last year alone. To combat this, the police obviously need to get better at solving crime and using new technology such as facial recognition, something that I know a little of. Having spent time with my own police force, Bedfordshire Police, who have been trialling and using this technology effectively and and of course, it was showcased and the benefits of it were showcased recently at the Notting Hill Carnival.
However, this is not enough. We do need more officers as well. And I know as part of the debate today, we've been talking about the hokey cokey of police numbers, and that's been mentioned by various honourable members. But the Conservative Party has set out a funded plan to to deploy 10,000 extra police officers, introduce hotspot patrolling of 2000 crime hotspot areas to prevent an estimated 35,000 crimes and deter anti-social behaviour, public drug consumption, shoplifting and knife crime and also tripling stop and search to take knives and drugs off the streets.
These are clear targets to hold any future conservative government to account, and that is a different approach to the government's abstract promises on neighbourhood policing. From my conversations in my constituency with police officers and the police and Crime Commissioner, how we will effectively monitor the promises on neighbourhood policing is yet to be determined. Can the Minister please provide clarity on this today? How can we hold the government to account on its commitments to neighbourhood policing? Furthermore, we must be tougher in dealing with crime that does require more policing but also stronger enforcement throughout the justice system.
Nothing quite illustrates this Labour government's failure to achieve this than their rushed and ill conceived early release schemes. These policies, these policies have inevitably placed enormous strain on police forces across the country, burdening officers with poor decisions made here in Whitehall. While I appreciate there have been a number of iterations of the policy since this comment, it appears to me that the statement made by His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Probation for England and Wales in August that ultimately he must.
Ultimately, he was not fully confident that the probation system will be able to cope with this massive work and there is a risk that things will go wrong. Seems as true now as it was then. Quite simply, these policies are a failure of the government and will put all of our constituents at risk. I appreciate that improving forces is not a simple task. Improvement will always be accompanied by challenges as well as successes.
But I believe that with the right attitudes in leadership and the right resources directed effectively, we can enhance confidence in our police forces. I know where the government makes sensible improvements to issues that improve accountability, such as vetting. They will always have the support of members of the opposition. The tragic deaths of officers Matthew Blades and Tom Cluff demonstrate the sacrifice and danger that our officers place themselves in. And may I echo the comments of honourable members across the House and commend them for their service.
The subsequent events demonstrate why our police officers are so important, and why the shadow Home Secretary was right to say last week in the chamber that only zero tolerance of crime and disorder will ensure that criminals are the ones that are afraid, rather than our law abiding constituents. It is this culture of zero tolerance, both from politicians and leaders within policing, that will improve public confidence in the police. Thank you, Chair.
It's a subject which I'm aware he's exceptionally active on, both as a friend of the police who argues for the importance of supporting our officers quite rightly, and as a constructive critic, which I'm sure perhaps is less appreciated amongst certain forces. The title of this debate, secured by the honourable member, is instructive. Debate centered around the police can all too often focus on their own actions, something which we have to undoubtedly consider. But we must also consider the actions of government, the policies we debate and the vote and vote for in this place, vote on in this place can directly impact how the public feels about the police, and I am afraid that in some cases, as the honourable member for Cheltenham so eloquently outlined, can cause support to be undermined, achieving the combination of our police forces operating effectively and justly, working in the interests of the country , is one of the critical foundations of policing.
As the second of the nine principles of policing set out, we must always recognise that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect. When this principle is not properly thought about, it is inevitable that public confidence is lost and the quality of our policing is diminished. There is a reciprocal relationship between the police and the public that is necessary, but we need to appreciate that the best way to achieve success is by having effective forces, preventing crime and delivering justice for the victims of crime.
In the two years of this Labour government, there are many issues that have challenged public confidence in policing. While I will be cautious of delving into the details of some of those, given that investigations remain ongoing into the conduct of forces, incidents like the Henry Novak murder, the decisions made pertaining to the banning of Maccabi Tel Aviv fans, and the inappropriate use of Non-crime hate incidents all have raised concerns. Only recently we heard that the families of the victims of Valdo Calkins attack attacks in Nottingham said that the police did not tell them that a man who had taken an interest in them had a history of violence when he attempted to visit them, leading to an I o PC complaint.
Furthermore, the heinous death of Sarah Everard exposed the very worst of the Metropolitan Police and rightly made it clear that changes were required. In July, his Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services report on the force pointed to progress, but still noted that substantial work needed to improve vetting, professional standards and anti-corruption arrangements. This list of incidents fails to fully scratch the surface of the extent of complaints and problems that have been experienced amongst forces.
However, we know only too well how local and national failures can undermine them. If we combine this with the feeling many have that the crimes they experience are not followed up on. It is little surprise that across many parts of our society, trust is eroding. We must work to improve this trust by improving our police forces. Well, the last few years have seen stability in the Iopc survey of perceptions of the police, and more people feel positive than negative towards the police by a rate of 2 to 1, at a rate of 49% in 2020 425.
Should still be a cause. That that number should still be a cause for concern . With much higher levels of police confidence in this country. Worryingly, the positive percentage falls further when asked about the individuals local force and further still when asked about the Metropolitan Police, an unsurprising number given the decreases in the Public Attitude Survey produced by the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime. These numbers are less surprising when we consider that just 8.5% of crimes were solved in the year to March 2026.
This is an extraordinary 92% of reported crimes going unresolved, leaving many people wondering what to do when they face criminal activity, a problem that is compounded by crime increasing by 10% and anti-social behaviour going up 15% in the last year alone. To combat this, the police obviously need to get better at solving crime and using new technology such as facial recognition, something that I know a little of. Having spent time with my own police force, Bedfordshire Police, who have been trialling and using this technology effectively and and of course, it was showcased and the benefits of it were showcased recently at the Notting Hill Carnival.
However, this is not enough. We do need more officers as well. And I know as part of the debate today, we've been talking about the hokey cokey of police numbers, and that's been mentioned by various honourable members. But the Conservative Party has set out a funded plan to to deploy 10,000 extra police officers, introduce hotspot patrolling of 2000 crime hotspot areas to prevent an estimated 35,000 crimes and deter anti-social behaviour, public drug consumption, shoplifting and knife crime and also tripling stop and search to take knives and drugs off the streets.
These are clear targets to hold any future conservative government to account, and that is a different approach to the government's abstract promises on neighbourhood policing. From my conversations in my constituency with police officers and the police and Crime Commissioner, how we will effectively monitor the promises on neighbourhood policing is yet to be determined. Can the Minister please provide clarity on this today? How can we hold the government to account on its commitments to neighbourhood policing? Furthermore, we must be tougher in dealing with crime that does require more policing but also stronger enforcement throughout the justice system.
Nothing quite illustrates this Labour government's failure to achieve this than their rushed and ill conceived early release schemes. These policies, these policies have inevitably placed enormous strain on police forces across the country, burdening officers with poor decisions made here in Whitehall. While I appreciate there have been a number of iterations of the policy since this comment, it appears to me that the statement made by His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Probation for England and Wales in August that ultimately he must.
Ultimately, he was not fully confident that the probation system will be able to cope with this massive work and there is a risk that things will go wrong. Seems as true now as it was then. Quite simply, these policies are a failure of the government and will put all of our constituents at risk. I appreciate that improving forces is not a simple task. Improvement will always be accompanied by challenges as well as successes.
But I believe that with the right attitudes in leadership and the right resources directed effectively, we can enhance confidence in our police forces. I know where the government makes sensible improvements to issues that improve accountability, such as vetting. They will always have the support of members of the opposition. The tragic deaths of officers Matthew Blades and Tom Cluff demonstrate the sacrifice and danger that our officers place themselves in. And may I echo the comments of honourable members across the House and commend them for their service.
The subsequent events demonstrate why our police officers are so important, and why the shadow Home Secretary was right to say last week in the chamber that only zero tolerance of crime and disorder will ensure that criminals are the ones that are afraid, rather than our law abiding constituents. It is this culture of zero tolerance, both from politicians and leaders within policing, that will improve public confidence in the police. Thank you, Chair.
10:23
10:23
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alex. And may I also congratulate my opposite number for his recent promotion, and I look forward to working with him in the weeks and months and years ahead. I'm very grateful for my honourable friend for securing this debate, and to all who have spoken in it. As the member raised at the outset, I am not the policing Minister. She very obviously needs to be elsewhere at this very difficult time, and it is very much my aim to prove a capable stand in, but I hope members will forgive me any gaps in policy knowledge.
While I cannot match the Minister in that regard, I certainly can begin by acknowledging the unique and critical role played by the police in the life of our country. Day in and day out, thousands of men and women go to work with a single aim to keep us, their fellow citizens, safe. Theirs is public service of the very highest form, and it can only be performed by those who possess exceptional courage, those who are willing to face risks that the rest of us could barely imagine.
We had a terrible illustration of that just recently in Cleveland, as referred to already within this debate, when two officers lost their lives in that awful crash on the A66, my thoughts remain with the families, colleagues and friends of PC blades and PC Cluff, who served with courage and commitment to the last. Their service and sacrifice also reminds us that policing is not merely a profession. It is, as the Home Secretary said in the House last week, a calling and those who answer it deserve our support, respect and gratitude to perform their duties effectively.
The police require our confidence and our trust. Which brings me on to the focus of this debate. The range of themes and topics covered today speaks to the breadth of the subject matter. There are so many different aspects of policing which public confidence is alive issue, and I now come on to deal with the issues that members have highlighted. Speak to any frontline officer , and they will tell you that our current policing system is no longer fit for purpose.
The current policing model is neither national enough to deal with serious and organised crime, nor local enough to respond to the public's concerns about theft and anti-social behaviour. This government is determined to change that, and that is why, in the police Reform White Paper, we set out the most significant changes to policing in nearly 200 years, creating a system that is better equipped to tackle modern threats while remaining responsive to local communities. Our reforms will rebuild public confidence by delivering a new model for policing, with a clear focus on cutting and preventing crime, strengthening local policing, raising standards and ensuring national and specialist police services can be accessed by all communities.
A new National Police Service will strengthen our ability to tackle serious and organised crime threats to national security. The National Police Service will give policing the tools, technology and capability needed to tackle crime wherever it occurs.
While I cannot match the Minister in that regard, I certainly can begin by acknowledging the unique and critical role played by the police in the life of our country. Day in and day out, thousands of men and women go to work with a single aim to keep us, their fellow citizens, safe. Theirs is public service of the very highest form, and it can only be performed by those who possess exceptional courage, those who are willing to face risks that the rest of us could barely imagine.
We had a terrible illustration of that just recently in Cleveland, as referred to already within this debate, when two officers lost their lives in that awful crash on the A66, my thoughts remain with the families, colleagues and friends of PC blades and PC Cluff, who served with courage and commitment to the last. Their service and sacrifice also reminds us that policing is not merely a profession. It is, as the Home Secretary said in the House last week, a calling and those who answer it deserve our support, respect and gratitude to perform their duties effectively.
The police require our confidence and our trust. Which brings me on to the focus of this debate. The range of themes and topics covered today speaks to the breadth of the subject matter. There are so many different aspects of policing which public confidence is alive issue, and I now come on to deal with the issues that members have highlighted. Speak to any frontline officer , and they will tell you that our current policing system is no longer fit for purpose.
The current policing model is neither national enough to deal with serious and organised crime, nor local enough to respond to the public's concerns about theft and anti-social behaviour. This government is determined to change that, and that is why, in the police Reform White Paper, we set out the most significant changes to policing in nearly 200 years, creating a system that is better equipped to tackle modern threats while remaining responsive to local communities. Our reforms will rebuild public confidence by delivering a new model for policing, with a clear focus on cutting and preventing crime, strengthening local policing, raising standards and ensuring national and specialist police services can be accessed by all communities.
A new National Police Service will strengthen our ability to tackle serious and organised crime threats to national security. The National Police Service will give policing the tools, technology and capability needed to tackle crime wherever it occurs.
10:27
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thank the Minister for giving way and I thank you for being here today. Would you commit to asking the minister to be here to would you commit to asking the minister to meet with me and the local police force to discuss the custody unit, because it is a huge issue in our constituency, and this decision was made well before my time, but it's really affecting our community throughout South Somerset.
10:27
10:28
10:28
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Thank you sir. Thank you for correcting me. As the member raised earlier, he'd like to meet with the Policing Minister, and I'm very, very happy to pass that request on to her. So we will introduce stronger and national standards through the National Police Service, ensuring the public receives a more consistent service. And in response to the member for Middlesbrough, the reform programme will enable a new funding formula that will include policing areas like Cleveland.
In 2010, the number of officers in post was 1400, 143,734 full time employees, and during the period of austerity under the previous government, officer, numbers dropped by over 2000 to a low of 122,405 in 2018. From 2019, the previous government funded, funded forces to hastily increase officer numbers, but this has led to officers being hired, in some cases being put in desk jobs to meet arbitrary headcounts. And this rush to recruit also led to a situation where over 35% of officers had less than five years experience placing a further strain on forces.
This government is focused on what the police are doing, not just officer numbers, and that is why we have scrapped the officer maintenance grants and focused on rebuilding neighbourhood policing. With over 3800 more police and PCSOs PCSOs now where the public want to see them out in neighbourhoods, proactively preventing crime and dealing with anti-social behaviour. Would
In 2010, the number of officers in post was 1400, 143,734 full time employees, and during the period of austerity under the previous government, officer, numbers dropped by over 2000 to a low of 122,405 in 2018. From 2019, the previous government funded, funded forces to hastily increase officer numbers, but this has led to officers being hired, in some cases being put in desk jobs to meet arbitrary headcounts. And this rush to recruit also led to a situation where over 35% of officers had less than five years experience placing a further strain on forces.
This government is focused on what the police are doing, not just officer numbers, and that is why we have scrapped the officer maintenance grants and focused on rebuilding neighbourhood policing. With over 3800 more police and PCSOs PCSOs now where the public want to see them out in neighbourhoods, proactively preventing crime and dealing with anti-social behaviour. Would
10:30
10:30
10:30
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Can I thank the Minister for giving way on neighbourhood policing? I recently met with my force in Bedfordshire over the summer and spent a couple of days with the neighbourhood policing teams. One of the challenges that they have is that neighbourhood policing officers quite often get dragged off the neighbourhood policing taskings to deal with more complicated policing operations because there's a higher risk and they need to prioritise their work. What assurance can the minister give to my constituents and to all honourable members, constituents that in the Neighbourhood policing guarantee, the new Neighbourhood Policing officers will not be hired and then be retasked to other work within their police forces?
10:31
10:31
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Can I thank the member for his question? The commitment is to deliver 13,000 additional neighbourhood policing personnel by the end of this Parliament, and that will give us the capacity and the capability to ensure that they can be focused on the role that they're employed to do. Since the election, the government has increased funding to forces by close to £2 billion this year. Funding to police forces increased has increased to its highest cash level of up to £18.5 billion, a 4.5% cash increase compared to the previous year.
This means that all forces will receive a real terms uplift in their funding. And in response to the member for Harrow West and his question, since March 2025, the met has now grown by 607 neighbourhood officers and we recognise the unique challenges faced by the met in 2026 to 2027. They receive up to £4 billion in funding, which an increase of £175 million. In addition, we are supporting policing to deliver £354 million of efficiency savings by the end of this Parliament, through the Police Efficiency and Collaboration programme.
But we cannot stop there. The police funding system we inherited was complex, outdated and the product of legacy decisions rather than strategic design. Many PCCs MPs and policing partners have complained that the current police funding formula is out of date and not fit for purpose. Changes to police governance, forced mergers and the creation of the National Police Service require a new way of allocating funding between forces aligned with these new structures. We are committed.
This means that all forces will receive a real terms uplift in their funding. And in response to the member for Harrow West and his question, since March 2025, the met has now grown by 607 neighbourhood officers and we recognise the unique challenges faced by the met in 2026 to 2027. They receive up to £4 billion in funding, which an increase of £175 million. In addition, we are supporting policing to deliver £354 million of efficiency savings by the end of this Parliament, through the Police Efficiency and Collaboration programme.
But we cannot stop there. The police funding system we inherited was complex, outdated and the product of legacy decisions rather than strategic design. Many PCCs MPs and policing partners have complained that the current police funding formula is out of date and not fit for purpose. Changes to police governance, forced mergers and the creation of the National Police Service require a new way of allocating funding between forces aligned with these new structures. We are committed.
10:33
10:33
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I thank the Minister for giving way. I asked us quite specific question about the alignment of boundaries in my constituency in Cheltenham. We are served by Gloucestershire police. We are apparently due to get a regional mayor with Herefordshire and Worcestershire. We're in the health board for Bristol in the West, but policing apparently is being sent eastwards. And when we're talking about the government's devolution agenda and transparency and accountability for public services, I think that causes a real issue.
And there are rumours that the government is changing course and they're trying to align boundaries. Is that the case, yes or no?
And there are rumours that the government is changing course and they're trying to align boundaries. Is that the case, yes or no?
10:33
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Thank you for your question. Thank you for the question. This is a question that, as somebody stepping into the role, I cannot immediately answer, and I am sure that the member will get an answer to his question as quickly as possible. Many changes to police governance, governance, forced mergers and the creation of the National Police Service require a new way of allocating funding between forces aligned with these new structures. We are committed to a wider review of the police funding formula to ensure ensure force funding is fair and keeps the public safe.
A new approach to allocating funding will be brought in as part of our reforms to police structures. Public confidence in policing depends on communities knowing what they can expect from their local police service, and seeing that those expectations are being met. That is why this government is including local policing guarantees, which will provide greater transparency and accountability on the policing services that matter next to the most to the public. The government has committed to setting clear expectations on the issues that matter most to the public, including a target for forces to attend 90% of the most serious incidents within 15 minutes in urban areas and 20 minutes in rural areas.
Alongside measures to improve the speed with which 999 calls are answered. However, public confidence is about more than response times alone. It is also shaped by whether victims receive a good service
A new approach to allocating funding will be brought in as part of our reforms to police structures. Public confidence in policing depends on communities knowing what they can expect from their local police service, and seeing that those expectations are being met. That is why this government is including local policing guarantees, which will provide greater transparency and accountability on the policing services that matter next to the most to the public. The government has committed to setting clear expectations on the issues that matter most to the public, including a target for forces to attend 90% of the most serious incidents within 15 minutes in urban areas and 20 minutes in rural areas.
Alongside measures to improve the speed with which 999 calls are answered. However, public confidence is about more than response times alone. It is also shaped by whether victims receive a good service
10:35
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
The response times alone. It is also shaped by whether victims receive a good service and whether forces are effective at tackling crime. I see S. S recent state of policing. Policing urged forces to make urgent improvements in how they investigate crime and secure justice for victims. Forces must get the basics of investigation right. The government is strengthening the way police performance is monitored and improved through the police performance system.
Inspection findings are brought together with analysis against the Police Performance Framework to provide a comprehensive picture, and this enables early early identification of concerns. Targeted support in collaboration with the College of Policing and Intervention, where required. A stronger focus on delivering better outcomes for victims and the public will play a key part of rebuilding and maintaining trust and confidence for victims of crime and communities.
Inspection findings are brought together with analysis against the Police Performance Framework to provide a comprehensive picture, and this enables early early identification of concerns. Targeted support in collaboration with the College of Policing and Intervention, where required. A stronger focus on delivering better outcomes for victims and the public will play a key part of rebuilding and maintaining trust and confidence for victims of crime and communities.
10:36
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
I understand and respect that this is a devolved matter, but I had asked a question in relation, and hopefully the Minister can give me the assurance that I that I would seek in Northern Ireland. We have a particular issue where one part of the United Kingdom where terrorism still is active alone, a lesser way for that for the PSNI to police correctly and effectively. They need to have the resources. So could I ask the minister, please, to have those discussions with the relevant Minister to ensure that when it comes to policing in Northern Ireland that resources are.
The Honourable Lady has given an assurance for resources elsewhere in United Kingdom. Resources for us in Northern Ireland need also be equal and effective to ensure that the terrorism threat that we have in Northern Ireland is dissipated and reduced.
The Honourable Lady has given an assurance for resources elsewhere in United Kingdom. Resources for us in Northern Ireland need also be equal and effective to ensure that the terrorism threat that we have in Northern Ireland is dissipated and reduced.
10:36
10:36
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I thank the honourable member for his question. I will ensure that that request will be passed through. Back to my colleague when she returns. All communities deserve to have trust and confidence in the police. This starts with ensuring that those who enter policing are vetted and assessed thoroughly, and that they remain suitable to working policing throughout their service. This year, we delivered our manifesto commitment to introduce mandatory service standards on vetting as part of these standards.
Applicants. Applicants who have a caution or conviction for relevant offences, including domestic abuse and sexual offences, are disqualified from entering policing. A presumption of withdrawal of vetting clearance applies for serving police officers in these circumstances. The Home Office has provided me my CFRS with £100,000 for this financial year to expand the scope of its integrity inspections. These will now look at recruitment and selection processes alongside vetting in every force in England and Wales.
We have also provided £425,000 to the College of Policing and MPC to develop an accredited regime on vetting. This will include the development of standardised training and stronger intervention in forces that are not complying with vetting standards. The Home Office has to date, provided approximately £3.5 million towards the MPC's Continuous Integrity screening programme. This is developing a system which will provide automated alerts from the police National database to to forces in relation to anyone working in policing, enabling forces to take action earlier.
We are pleased to fall short of the standards expected of them. The public rightly expects that they be held to account. The Independent Office for Police Conduct plays a crucial role in overseeing the police complaints system. It also investigates the most serious and sensitive matters, such as deaths and serious injuries, injuries and serious allegations of corruption involving the police. This government announced plans to reform the governance of the Iopc to strengthen its accountability and resilience.
On the 30th of July, the Home Secretary launched an independent end to end review of the police accountability system. It will be chaired by Dame Lynne Owens and Jason Beer KC, and will report in six months. It will establish whether the police accountability system is fit for purpose, transparent and how we can minimise avoidable delays for victims families and officers. I agree, please public confidence and trust in policing is has been damaged, but it is and it has been damaged.
Through social media clips referred to by the Minister for East Londonderry. And it. It cannot be built through slogans or by drawing policing into wider police debates. It is. If it is, it is to be rebuilt. When people. People see officers on their streets knowing that crimes will be investigated. They receive a proper service that when they need help and they have confidence that that that the highest standards are upheld.
And I agree with the member for Cheltenham. We as MPs have responsibility for developing and giving, giving respect to the police officers in our communities so that we stand as we we stand as as as signallers to way the way that we should work with the police in order to build community strength and cohesive cohesiveness in the constituencies that we represent. Trust in the police matters because policing in the UK is fundamentally based on policing by consent.
When people trust the police, they are more willing to report crime, share information and act as witnesses, comply with the law and work with officers to solve local problems. We recognise that trust and confidence are stronger in some communities than others, and that confidence has declined over time. That is why this government is focused on practical action restoring neighbourhood policing, increasing transparency about police performance, strengthening accountability, modernising police force structures and ensuring forces have the support they need to tackle the crimes and anti-social behaviour that matter most to local police.
The reforms about the right policing in the right place so people feel safer, see police where they live and know that they will get the help they they they need, they need when they need it. The programme is needed to help improve effectiveness and restore public trust, creating a stronger, more coordinated national approach to the capabilities that underpin policing. The public do not want a police service distracted from its core mission. They want a police service that prevents crime, protects communities and serves victims.
That is exactly what our reforms are designed to deliver. Turning to the matter of knowing who your local police officer is, neighbourhood policing is essential to restoring public confidence in the police. Officers who know their communities are better placed to understand local concerns, respond to issues that matter to residents and provide visible reassurance when needed. And every community deserves to have visible, proactive and accessible neighbourhood police officers through the Neighbourhood Policing Guarantee. We are strengthened.
We are strengthened. This connection between the police and their communities by committing to delivering, delivering 3000 additional neighbourhood policing personnel by the end of this Parliament. This government recognises the profound and lasting impact that sexual violence can have on victims. We know that victims do not always receive the response or support they deserve, which has contributed to these crimes being underreported, and I am listening to the points raised by the member for North East Fife.
That is why we are committed to improving the police response to sexual violence, to ensure all victims are heard, taken seriously and treated with dignity. To ensure consistency, we establish the National Centre for Vawg and Public Protection in April 2025. The centre provides coordinated national leadership within policing to tackle violence against women and girls. In addition, the centres supporting all forces to implement the learnings of Operation Soteria and Academic Informed programme that has transformed the investigation, investigation of rape and sexual offences.
As part of this, forces must maintain a commitment to continuous improvement, acknowledging that ongoing learning is essential to improving outcomes and experiences for victims. We want every force to have the right specialist capability to address sexual offences, and that is why we have asked all forces in England and Wales to implement specialist rape and sexual offence teams by December 2027. Hate crime is a priority offence under the Online Safety Act. This place is clear legal duties on platforms to take proactive action against legal hate content online, and the government also funds the national Online Hate Crime Hub, the national policing capability dedicated to online hate crime.
And in response to the member for Strangford. Police and justice are devolved to Northern Ireland and. And the Police Service of Northern Ireland's main budget is allocated by the Northern Ireland Department of Justice. The Northern Ireland's Executive Programme for government recognises that PSNI offers. The numbers are low and I welcome the executive's commitment to grow police officer numbers in line with the 2020 New Decade, New Approach Agreement. In closing, can I thank my honourable friend again for securing this debate and everyone who has contributed? We have covered a lot of ground, and yet the nature of the topic means that inevitably , there is much more that could be said.
I know the Policing Minister will take great interest in the discussion we have had today, not least because the question of how we drive up confidence in policing is one that concerns all of us, and has an impact on the lives of everyone across this country. As I have set out, the government is taking action across multiple fronts, and we will continue working closely with the police to ensure they have everything they need to maintain public trust and deliver for the communities that depend on them.
Applicants. Applicants who have a caution or conviction for relevant offences, including domestic abuse and sexual offences, are disqualified from entering policing. A presumption of withdrawal of vetting clearance applies for serving police officers in these circumstances. The Home Office has provided me my CFRS with £100,000 for this financial year to expand the scope of its integrity inspections. These will now look at recruitment and selection processes alongside vetting in every force in England and Wales.
We have also provided £425,000 to the College of Policing and MPC to develop an accredited regime on vetting. This will include the development of standardised training and stronger intervention in forces that are not complying with vetting standards. The Home Office has to date, provided approximately £3.5 million towards the MPC's Continuous Integrity screening programme. This is developing a system which will provide automated alerts from the police National database to to forces in relation to anyone working in policing, enabling forces to take action earlier.
We are pleased to fall short of the standards expected of them. The public rightly expects that they be held to account. The Independent Office for Police Conduct plays a crucial role in overseeing the police complaints system. It also investigates the most serious and sensitive matters, such as deaths and serious injuries, injuries and serious allegations of corruption involving the police. This government announced plans to reform the governance of the Iopc to strengthen its accountability and resilience.
On the 30th of July, the Home Secretary launched an independent end to end review of the police accountability system. It will be chaired by Dame Lynne Owens and Jason Beer KC, and will report in six months. It will establish whether the police accountability system is fit for purpose, transparent and how we can minimise avoidable delays for victims families and officers. I agree, please public confidence and trust in policing is has been damaged, but it is and it has been damaged.
Through social media clips referred to by the Minister for East Londonderry. And it. It cannot be built through slogans or by drawing policing into wider police debates. It is. If it is, it is to be rebuilt. When people. People see officers on their streets knowing that crimes will be investigated. They receive a proper service that when they need help and they have confidence that that that the highest standards are upheld.
And I agree with the member for Cheltenham. We as MPs have responsibility for developing and giving, giving respect to the police officers in our communities so that we stand as we we stand as as as signallers to way the way that we should work with the police in order to build community strength and cohesive cohesiveness in the constituencies that we represent. Trust in the police matters because policing in the UK is fundamentally based on policing by consent.
When people trust the police, they are more willing to report crime, share information and act as witnesses, comply with the law and work with officers to solve local problems. We recognise that trust and confidence are stronger in some communities than others, and that confidence has declined over time. That is why this government is focused on practical action restoring neighbourhood policing, increasing transparency about police performance, strengthening accountability, modernising police force structures and ensuring forces have the support they need to tackle the crimes and anti-social behaviour that matter most to local police.
The reforms about the right policing in the right place so people feel safer, see police where they live and know that they will get the help they they they need, they need when they need it. The programme is needed to help improve effectiveness and restore public trust, creating a stronger, more coordinated national approach to the capabilities that underpin policing. The public do not want a police service distracted from its core mission. They want a police service that prevents crime, protects communities and serves victims.
That is exactly what our reforms are designed to deliver. Turning to the matter of knowing who your local police officer is, neighbourhood policing is essential to restoring public confidence in the police. Officers who know their communities are better placed to understand local concerns, respond to issues that matter to residents and provide visible reassurance when needed. And every community deserves to have visible, proactive and accessible neighbourhood police officers through the Neighbourhood Policing Guarantee. We are strengthened.
We are strengthened. This connection between the police and their communities by committing to delivering, delivering 3000 additional neighbourhood policing personnel by the end of this Parliament. This government recognises the profound and lasting impact that sexual violence can have on victims. We know that victims do not always receive the response or support they deserve, which has contributed to these crimes being underreported, and I am listening to the points raised by the member for North East Fife.
That is why we are committed to improving the police response to sexual violence, to ensure all victims are heard, taken seriously and treated with dignity. To ensure consistency, we establish the National Centre for Vawg and Public Protection in April 2025. The centre provides coordinated national leadership within policing to tackle violence against women and girls. In addition, the centres supporting all forces to implement the learnings of Operation Soteria and Academic Informed programme that has transformed the investigation, investigation of rape and sexual offences.
As part of this, forces must maintain a commitment to continuous improvement, acknowledging that ongoing learning is essential to improving outcomes and experiences for victims. We want every force to have the right specialist capability to address sexual offences, and that is why we have asked all forces in England and Wales to implement specialist rape and sexual offence teams by December 2027. Hate crime is a priority offence under the Online Safety Act. This place is clear legal duties on platforms to take proactive action against legal hate content online, and the government also funds the national Online Hate Crime Hub, the national policing capability dedicated to online hate crime.
And in response to the member for Strangford. Police and justice are devolved to Northern Ireland and. And the Police Service of Northern Ireland's main budget is allocated by the Northern Ireland Department of Justice. The Northern Ireland's Executive Programme for government recognises that PSNI offers. The numbers are low and I welcome the executive's commitment to grow police officer numbers in line with the 2020 New Decade, New Approach Agreement. In closing, can I thank my honourable friend again for securing this debate and everyone who has contributed? We have covered a lot of ground, and yet the nature of the topic means that inevitably , there is much more that could be said.
I know the Policing Minister will take great interest in the discussion we have had today, not least because the question of how we drive up confidence in policing is one that concerns all of us, and has an impact on the lives of everyone across this country. As I have set out, the government is taking action across multiple fronts, and we will continue working closely with the police to ensure they have everything they need to maintain public trust and deliver for the communities that depend on them.
10:45
10:45
10:45
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Sir Alec, and I thank all the speakers and those who have intervened over the course of this debate. So many important points, and I think we have found quite a lot of agreement. So I hope that we can push this forward together across the parties, because policing and crime is such an important issue for all of our constituents across the country. And yet it often receives far less attention in Parliament than many, many other issues.
So I'm pleased to be able to make my small contribution to putting that right. And I'm grateful to members here for joining me in that effort. So thank you all for attending.
So I'm pleased to be able to make my small contribution to putting that right. And I'm grateful to members here for joining me in that effort. So thank you all for attending.
10:46
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The question is that this House has considered government support for public confidence in the police, as many of their opinions say. I the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Order, order! The sitting is suspended until 11 a.m.. Order! I will call Alex Mayor to move the motion, and I will then call the minister to respond. I remind other members that they may only make a speech with prior permission from the member in charge of the debate, and the minister.
There will not be an opportunity for the member in charge to wind up, as is the convention, for 30 minutes debate. Alex Mayor, to move the motion.
There will not be an opportunity for the member in charge to wind up, as is the convention, for 30 minutes debate. Alex Mayor, to move the motion.
11:00
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thank you, Sir Alec, and it's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I beg to move that this House has considered standards for bus stops. This is actually my first time leading a Westminster Hall debate. So there was a degree of excitement in my office last week when the email arrived, alongside another email about a coach debate that I get to lead in November. So we were all thinking that you wait ages for a Westminster Hall debate to turn up, and then two come along at once.
I think many people in the House know that I bang on quite a lot about buses, because I think that they are brilliant. And there are 3.7 billion bus journeys made every year. And as often is said, they're the most used form of public transport. So I assume that that means that bus stops are the most used place that people hang around waiting for public transport as well. And that's why I believe that we should lavish some attention on them, not least because they're all around us.
About 86% of people live within a ten minute walk of a bus stop, and the Bus Services Act has that was passed, gives the Secretary of State brand new powers to look at the location, the design and the construction of stopping places , bus stops, one that point? Absolutely.
I think many people in the House know that I bang on quite a lot about buses, because I think that they are brilliant. And there are 3.7 billion bus journeys made every year. And as often is said, they're the most used form of public transport. So I assume that that means that bus stops are the most used place that people hang around waiting for public transport as well. And that's why I believe that we should lavish some attention on them, not least because they're all around us.
About 86% of people live within a ten minute walk of a bus stop, and the Bus Services Act has that was passed, gives the Secretary of State brand new powers to look at the location, the design and the construction of stopping places , bus stops, one that point? Absolutely.
11:01
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I'm grateful to my honourable friend. She's absolutely right about the location of bus stops. I'm so frustrated when I'm on the train at Cambridge, arrive at the station, see the bus, but I have to walk 200 yards around the platform, come out the bus stop at the station and walk 200 yards back to the bus stop to find the bus has gone. Why are bus stops such a low priority?
11:01
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I thank the honourable gentleman for that point. He, of course, has a very snazzy station these days. It's very much improved Cambridge Station over the period that he has been the Member of Parliament. But I do think having integrated transport really matters and the government's strategy better connected very much talks to the fact that people use more than one form of public transport. So getting from the train to the bus station is clearly something that matters greatly. And I will slightly come on to later on in my speech.
So as I was saying, the Bus Services Act and the accompanying guidance that's coming out alongside it tends to focus on accessibility. And I want us to think about accessibility because yes, that's very important. But yeah, absolutely.
So as I was saying, the Bus Services Act and the accompanying guidance that's coming out alongside it tends to focus on accessibility. And I want us to think about accessibility because yes, that's very important. But yeah, absolutely.
11:02
11:02
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Can I commend the Honourable lady for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for bringing this forward? She said it's her first Westminster Hall. It certainly won't be our last. And that 1st November second had been more to come after that as well. So well done to her. I congratulate on bringing this forward. It's about the importance of improving accessibility to bus stops. Can I make a plea, if I can, to ensure that older people continue to feel confident in using public transport are .
Adequate resources would encourage usage because the the effects of loneliness in older people, which has been increasingly recognised as a public health issue. So in light of this, does anybody agree that more must be done to ensure that older people remain independent and continue to access public transport without the barrier of having to stand for prolonged periods of time? Therefore, a suitable seating needs to be there as well.
Adequate resources would encourage usage because the the effects of loneliness in older people, which has been increasingly recognised as a public health issue. So in light of this, does anybody agree that more must be done to ensure that older people remain independent and continue to access public transport without the barrier of having to stand for prolonged periods of time? Therefore, a suitable seating needs to be there as well.
11:03
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
The honourable gentleman makes a good point. I want to encourage as many people to use our bus stops and therefore our buses as possible, and having seating can be very important for people who are waiting, because waiting in comfort is much more likely to mean that people choose to use the bus. So I am concerned about accessibility, but I also want us to ask another question. I want us just to move beyond, can I use the bus stop to would I actually want to like to choose to use the bus stop? I said in my maiden speech, actually, that I thought that bus stops were the window to the soul of buses.
And each I know, strange like that, but at least I keep to a theme. And I believe that each bus stop should give you a promise of the journey that is ahead, and I believe, therefore, that we ought to be having national standards for our bus stops. Now, whenever I suggest anything like national standards, ministers normally tell me that local people are best placed to decide, and I absolutely agree that ministers should not be deciding whether one bus stop is here on the road or 25 yards further along.
But I do think that when we have national standards, we reduce duplication, and that is one of the issues that many local councils and transport authorities talk to me about. Now, Portsmouth is often mentioned as an example of a place with very good bus stops, and they've actually got 579 bus stops, and they decided to do a 72 point audit of all of their bus stops. And they, they went around and had a look at them and, and checked all the different things and they decided how they were going to improve them in four different ways.
But I think the interesting thing is that their transport lead says that they also would have welcomed national standards, because actually they thought they spent a quarter of their time and budget on developing their own local standards, and they would have much rather have ploughed that into actually making bus stops better. So even they believe that we should have national standards. And again, I'm not saying, you know, one size fits all at all. It's obvious that you would need a different kind of bus stop for a small rural area as opposed to a large hospital.
But again, people have already done some of this work. Portsmouth, as I mentioned, have come up with their six different varieties of bus stop. The campaign for Better Transport has got four. Norfolk County Council has split them up in bronze and silver, gold and platinum bus stops. So I think a lot of that work's been done and could be implemented into some national standards. So what do I think should be in those standards? I think the very first thing is can I find the bus? Because I think that that is the first question that passengers ask.
So the modern bus stop really came into being in London in the 1820s. The first buses were in Manchester, but the first bus stops were in London that we would understand with with a pole and a flag. And yet over a century later, it's still sometimes quite difficult to find the bus stop. As my honourable friend has already said. Yes.
And each I know, strange like that, but at least I keep to a theme. And I believe that each bus stop should give you a promise of the journey that is ahead, and I believe, therefore, that we ought to be having national standards for our bus stops. Now, whenever I suggest anything like national standards, ministers normally tell me that local people are best placed to decide, and I absolutely agree that ministers should not be deciding whether one bus stop is here on the road or 25 yards further along.
But I do think that when we have national standards, we reduce duplication, and that is one of the issues that many local councils and transport authorities talk to me about. Now, Portsmouth is often mentioned as an example of a place with very good bus stops, and they've actually got 579 bus stops, and they decided to do a 72 point audit of all of their bus stops. And they, they went around and had a look at them and, and checked all the different things and they decided how they were going to improve them in four different ways.
But I think the interesting thing is that their transport lead says that they also would have welcomed national standards, because actually they thought they spent a quarter of their time and budget on developing their own local standards, and they would have much rather have ploughed that into actually making bus stops better. So even they believe that we should have national standards. And again, I'm not saying, you know, one size fits all at all. It's obvious that you would need a different kind of bus stop for a small rural area as opposed to a large hospital.
But again, people have already done some of this work. Portsmouth, as I mentioned, have come up with their six different varieties of bus stop. The campaign for Better Transport has got four. Norfolk County Council has split them up in bronze and silver, gold and platinum bus stops. So I think a lot of that work's been done and could be implemented into some national standards. So what do I think should be in those standards? I think the very first thing is can I find the bus? Because I think that that is the first question that passengers ask.
So the modern bus stop really came into being in London in the 1820s. The first buses were in Manchester, but the first bus stops were in London that we would understand with with a pole and a flag. And yet over a century later, it's still sometimes quite difficult to find the bus stop. As my honourable friend has already said. Yes.
11:06
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
I recall as a shadow minister visiting a major institution in the country and sending the management into panic. When I asked them where the bus stop was to get back to the station, they had to go and ask the cleaner and the cleaner told me, we won't find it because it's not marked. And I said, well, how does anyone know where the bus comes? I said, well, the people who use the bus know. Isn't that an indication of of the low priority? I'm afraid in some places given to bus as a mode of transport.
11:07
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I thank the honourable gentleman for that point. It is an anecdote he tells often, and I absolutely agree with him on that. I would also say completely the other end of the spectrum. I got the train to Stockport recently to make an onward journey to Manchester, for reasons I'm sure most members can understand. And when I got to the train station at Stockport, I decided that I would get the bus to a campaign centre in Manchester and I went on a particularly circuitous route to get there, despite the fact that actually the bus station was really rather near.
And the reason was that the signpost that I could have spotted said that it was for Stockport Interchange, Viaduct Park. No mention of the word bus, no picture of a bus. I, as a visitor, didn't have the faintest idea. It meant bus. So went on on a on a long walk to find the buses. So we do need to make it simple for people, whether in a rural area or in a in a larger city.
And I do think that sometimes we make public transport too complicated. I mean, I'm also reminded of a time when a transport officer was trying to explain this snazzy new concept of a transport hub to me, and he went round and round in circles until eventually I said, so it's a bus stop with a bicycle pump. And he kind of reluctantly agreed to that, but he really didn't want to call it a bus stop. Whereas I think we actually do need to talk in a language that passengers understand.
So national standards should absolutely start with the basics a recognisable stop and name and clear signage. So then we found the bus stop. What next? My next question is does it smell now? It's a slightly broader question than that. Really. Is it clean? Is it well lit? As the honourable gentleman mentioned, is there somewhere I can sit? The campaign for Better Transport ran a survey called Bus Stop Stories, and they mentioned a man called Paul, and he is quoted in there and it says the bus stop I use has a shelter, which is positive.
However, the so-called seat is far too narrow for someone to actually sit down. Then if it's a pole, how does it look, look, you know, dilapidated or delightful. And then at the bigger stops, are there other things that we can do, like perhaps charge my phone, get Wi-Fi, maybe call for help? You get that on some bus stops, CCTV to make people feel safer. Now, I really welcome the requirement for all local transport authorities to use the Transport Focus Bus Journey survey.
It's absolutely a push in the right direction and it will encourage some more recalcitrant authorities, perhaps like Central Bedfordshire Council, to collect information on what their passengers actually think. And overall, they found that 81% of people were satisfied with their bus stop. But here I think we might be seeing a difference between actual passengers who exist today, who are using the bus stop and would be passengers, and I'm really bothered about those would be passengers, because it's only if we get those people on board that we have a growing and thriving network.
The campaign for Better Transport says that 23% of people are put off using the bus because of poorly maintained shelters, and 47% say that a clean and comfortable shelter would make them use the bus more often. So my third question is, do I know when the bus is coming? And we could actually have an entire debate on things like real time information and Ghostbusters and the like? Now a timetable really helps, you know, if the bus is coming, but at the moment, only a third of stops have got up to date timetable information.
And at around 16% of stops, there is real time information and that is growing. And that is good. And I think the research here is really rather fascinating because if you're standing at a bus stop and it's got real time information and you've been waiting there for ten minutes and the bus arrives, and then you survey the passenger, they say that they have been waiting for 11 minutes. And if you do exactly the same thing, you wait for ten minutes.
But there's no real time information. And you ask the passenger again, how long have you been waiting? They say that they've been waiting for 21 minutes now. I obviously want all passengers to think they've been there for about 25 seconds. It all passes in the blink of an eye because it's so fun waiting at the bus stop. But I think that the key thing here is that nothing has changed in terms of the clock, just the passenger experience.
And there has again been some positive developments on real time information. The major operators are definitely sending their sort of pings as to where the bus is through far more often than they used to do, and the addition of non-passenger stops into bods. So this is where you put in like rest stops. And when drivers change over into the national database, makes it much better for passengers to know when their buses are actually coming along.
But challenges do remain. In some ways, we're slightly going backwards. Some of the older buses in rural areas and coastal areas have been using 3G, and now they're using 2G because the 3G is being turned off. And there will always be the on the day challenges that come along around roadworks and congestion. And bus operators make decisions to try and get back on timetable. And that needs to be fed through here with the minister be able to update us, please, on what's happening with the proposed disruption tool that the Department has been working on for some time.
We also have many, many examples whereby bus operators are both manually updating their own records on the day because the bus is delayed, and then they physically ring up the local transport authority to tell them the same information so that they can also manually input it into their own systems. So it appears at the bus stop for the passengers. Could the minister say, if there is any work, perhaps, that the bus Centre of Excellence on overcoming some of these issues, perhaps using AI? So I think these are the issues that we would like to see covered in a national standard.
Now, across the country, there are some places that are doing bus stops really well, and that includes the award winning bus stop in Dunstable outside Asda, which has got a green roof and is really wide and spacious and has seats. And there's also a fantastic bus stop that I've read about but not visited in Norwich, which apparently has swing in it as well, which also won a prize, so I'm looking forward to visiting that one.
But given that the latest enhanced partnership manual has in effect recognised that best practice exists around the country, for example on things like multi-operator ticketing, but that it doesn't necessarily happen without a bit of a carrot and stick approach with the minister. Consider including further national standards on bus stops at a future update of that manual. And then finally, there is the parallel issue of who owns the bus stop. And this is currently a complete and utter mess.
So read Council website and weep. I would say West Sussex County Council, the different elements that go to make up a bus stop are managed by three different organisations. Please ensure you contact the correct one if you have a query or wish to report an issue. Cambridgeshire County Council It should be noted that whilst bus shelters are located on the highway, they do not form part of the highway asset provided and managed by the County Council as the Highway Authority and actually mayoral devolution could make this even worse.
Many unitary authorities are concerned about splitting up transport and highways powers, and a strategic authority officer that I spoke to yesterday told me that devolution by default should include highways to the regional authority, not least to make sure that the revenue that some of the bus stops are generating is not then diverted to something like adult social services. We brought track and train together. I don't think it's beyond the wit of man to bring bus stop and bus together as well, and it is my clear view that it really ought to be the local transport authority that has that responsibility.
We also need to make sure that there are resources and that there are ongoing resources. And I very much welcome the multi year funding settlement that we've got, but it isn't always linear. There is an example, for example, in Lancaster, where snazzy new real time information screens were introduced. Then they were turned off because the money was not available for the ongoing upkeep. They're back on again now, but that that remains an issue.
And some in the industry are a little concerned that because we've got so much investment right now, that in five years time, when the contracts come to an end, when some of these screens need renewing, when the batteries start failing, is there going to be everything in place to enable us to do that? So fundamentally, I believe that what we need to do is have national standards for our bus stops, because I think that a really nice bus stop brings in more passengers and grows the network.
And I also think it gives pride in place. They look different, they look good. So I would very much urge the minister to consider national standards for bus stops so that everyone can have a great British bus stop. Yeah, yeah.
And the reason was that the signpost that I could have spotted said that it was for Stockport Interchange, Viaduct Park. No mention of the word bus, no picture of a bus. I, as a visitor, didn't have the faintest idea. It meant bus. So went on on a on a long walk to find the buses. So we do need to make it simple for people, whether in a rural area or in a in a larger city.
And I do think that sometimes we make public transport too complicated. I mean, I'm also reminded of a time when a transport officer was trying to explain this snazzy new concept of a transport hub to me, and he went round and round in circles until eventually I said, so it's a bus stop with a bicycle pump. And he kind of reluctantly agreed to that, but he really didn't want to call it a bus stop. Whereas I think we actually do need to talk in a language that passengers understand.
So national standards should absolutely start with the basics a recognisable stop and name and clear signage. So then we found the bus stop. What next? My next question is does it smell now? It's a slightly broader question than that. Really. Is it clean? Is it well lit? As the honourable gentleman mentioned, is there somewhere I can sit? The campaign for Better Transport ran a survey called Bus Stop Stories, and they mentioned a man called Paul, and he is quoted in there and it says the bus stop I use has a shelter, which is positive.
However, the so-called seat is far too narrow for someone to actually sit down. Then if it's a pole, how does it look, look, you know, dilapidated or delightful. And then at the bigger stops, are there other things that we can do, like perhaps charge my phone, get Wi-Fi, maybe call for help? You get that on some bus stops, CCTV to make people feel safer. Now, I really welcome the requirement for all local transport authorities to use the Transport Focus Bus Journey survey.
It's absolutely a push in the right direction and it will encourage some more recalcitrant authorities, perhaps like Central Bedfordshire Council, to collect information on what their passengers actually think. And overall, they found that 81% of people were satisfied with their bus stop. But here I think we might be seeing a difference between actual passengers who exist today, who are using the bus stop and would be passengers, and I'm really bothered about those would be passengers, because it's only if we get those people on board that we have a growing and thriving network.
The campaign for Better Transport says that 23% of people are put off using the bus because of poorly maintained shelters, and 47% say that a clean and comfortable shelter would make them use the bus more often. So my third question is, do I know when the bus is coming? And we could actually have an entire debate on things like real time information and Ghostbusters and the like? Now a timetable really helps, you know, if the bus is coming, but at the moment, only a third of stops have got up to date timetable information.
And at around 16% of stops, there is real time information and that is growing. And that is good. And I think the research here is really rather fascinating because if you're standing at a bus stop and it's got real time information and you've been waiting there for ten minutes and the bus arrives, and then you survey the passenger, they say that they have been waiting for 11 minutes. And if you do exactly the same thing, you wait for ten minutes.
But there's no real time information. And you ask the passenger again, how long have you been waiting? They say that they've been waiting for 21 minutes now. I obviously want all passengers to think they've been there for about 25 seconds. It all passes in the blink of an eye because it's so fun waiting at the bus stop. But I think that the key thing here is that nothing has changed in terms of the clock, just the passenger experience.
And there has again been some positive developments on real time information. The major operators are definitely sending their sort of pings as to where the bus is through far more often than they used to do, and the addition of non-passenger stops into bods. So this is where you put in like rest stops. And when drivers change over into the national database, makes it much better for passengers to know when their buses are actually coming along.
But challenges do remain. In some ways, we're slightly going backwards. Some of the older buses in rural areas and coastal areas have been using 3G, and now they're using 2G because the 3G is being turned off. And there will always be the on the day challenges that come along around roadworks and congestion. And bus operators make decisions to try and get back on timetable. And that needs to be fed through here with the minister be able to update us, please, on what's happening with the proposed disruption tool that the Department has been working on for some time.
We also have many, many examples whereby bus operators are both manually updating their own records on the day because the bus is delayed, and then they physically ring up the local transport authority to tell them the same information so that they can also manually input it into their own systems. So it appears at the bus stop for the passengers. Could the minister say, if there is any work, perhaps, that the bus Centre of Excellence on overcoming some of these issues, perhaps using AI? So I think these are the issues that we would like to see covered in a national standard.
Now, across the country, there are some places that are doing bus stops really well, and that includes the award winning bus stop in Dunstable outside Asda, which has got a green roof and is really wide and spacious and has seats. And there's also a fantastic bus stop that I've read about but not visited in Norwich, which apparently has swing in it as well, which also won a prize, so I'm looking forward to visiting that one.
But given that the latest enhanced partnership manual has in effect recognised that best practice exists around the country, for example on things like multi-operator ticketing, but that it doesn't necessarily happen without a bit of a carrot and stick approach with the minister. Consider including further national standards on bus stops at a future update of that manual. And then finally, there is the parallel issue of who owns the bus stop. And this is currently a complete and utter mess.
So read Council website and weep. I would say West Sussex County Council, the different elements that go to make up a bus stop are managed by three different organisations. Please ensure you contact the correct one if you have a query or wish to report an issue. Cambridgeshire County Council It should be noted that whilst bus shelters are located on the highway, they do not form part of the highway asset provided and managed by the County Council as the Highway Authority and actually mayoral devolution could make this even worse.
Many unitary authorities are concerned about splitting up transport and highways powers, and a strategic authority officer that I spoke to yesterday told me that devolution by default should include highways to the regional authority, not least to make sure that the revenue that some of the bus stops are generating is not then diverted to something like adult social services. We brought track and train together. I don't think it's beyond the wit of man to bring bus stop and bus together as well, and it is my clear view that it really ought to be the local transport authority that has that responsibility.
We also need to make sure that there are resources and that there are ongoing resources. And I very much welcome the multi year funding settlement that we've got, but it isn't always linear. There is an example, for example, in Lancaster, where snazzy new real time information screens were introduced. Then they were turned off because the money was not available for the ongoing upkeep. They're back on again now, but that that remains an issue.
And some in the industry are a little concerned that because we've got so much investment right now, that in five years time, when the contracts come to an end, when some of these screens need renewing, when the batteries start failing, is there going to be everything in place to enable us to do that? So fundamentally, I believe that what we need to do is have national standards for our bus stops, because I think that a really nice bus stop brings in more passengers and grows the network.
And I also think it gives pride in place. They look different, they look good. So I would very much urge the minister to consider national standards for bus stops so that everyone can have a great British bus stop. Yeah, yeah.
11:17
11:17
11:17
11:17
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
And I congratulate the member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for the first of two stimulating Westminster debates. And on this really important topic of national standards, I want to discuss a new species of bus stops. And that's the famous floating bus stop. For those of you who are initiated, this is a little alighting platform, which is in between a line of traffic and a cycle lane. So already I think you can guess what the issue might be that I'm going to raise.
In my constituency of Shrewsbury. We had a new floating bus stop and it was installed outside our railway station as part of our gyratory road system. But due to an error, the width of that pavement was less than the 1.5 minimum metre standard requirement. And there has been a 12 month campaign protest, public outcry and petition, and the council will now be removing that bus stop because we've had congestion chaos in the town centre and it has blocked access to our important railway station.
So what should have been a transport interchange? The important road between our bus station and our railway station has in fact, become congested by losing a line of traffic and having a bus, a floating bus stop that people didn't understand because it was complicated and confusing, and because we didn't have this simple single standard. And I think in terms of lessons learned, that's what we need to make sure that Shrewsbury story is fed into the assessment that I know will be ongoing.
And it exposes that wider issue because floating bus stops improve cyclist safety, but they transfer the interaction from bus and cyclist to pedestrian and cyclist. And so for blind and partially sighted passengers, it's quite a serious concern. And DFT, I know their guidance recognises the difficulty of detecting a passing cyclist. But Rnib's research found that 59% of sight loss users have stopped using bus stops, and 55% had changed routes to make sure that they felt safe on the road.
So I think the standard, the case for a single standard is strong because as long as we ensure accessibility geometry and we're being really careful about that relationship between pedestrians and cyclists. And so I'm hopeful that as the DFT look at that guidance in the start of next year, I hope that they will bring forward the lessons learned from Shrewsbury, because we need people to access not just our buses, but the train centre and of course, our beautiful town centre. Thank you.
In my constituency of Shrewsbury. We had a new floating bus stop and it was installed outside our railway station as part of our gyratory road system. But due to an error, the width of that pavement was less than the 1.5 minimum metre standard requirement. And there has been a 12 month campaign protest, public outcry and petition, and the council will now be removing that bus stop because we've had congestion chaos in the town centre and it has blocked access to our important railway station.
So what should have been a transport interchange? The important road between our bus station and our railway station has in fact, become congested by losing a line of traffic and having a bus, a floating bus stop that people didn't understand because it was complicated and confusing, and because we didn't have this simple single standard. And I think in terms of lessons learned, that's what we need to make sure that Shrewsbury story is fed into the assessment that I know will be ongoing.
And it exposes that wider issue because floating bus stops improve cyclist safety, but they transfer the interaction from bus and cyclist to pedestrian and cyclist. And so for blind and partially sighted passengers, it's quite a serious concern. And DFT, I know their guidance recognises the difficulty of detecting a passing cyclist. But Rnib's research found that 59% of sight loss users have stopped using bus stops, and 55% had changed routes to make sure that they felt safe on the road.
So I think the standard, the case for a single standard is strong because as long as we ensure accessibility geometry and we're being really careful about that relationship between pedestrians and cyclists. And so I'm hopeful that as the DFT look at that guidance in the start of next year, I hope that they will bring forward the lessons learned from Shrewsbury, because we need people to access not just our buses, but the train centre and of course, our beautiful town centre. Thank you.
11:19
11:19
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Thank you, Sir Alex, it's a pleasure to see you in the chair today. Can I start by thanking my hon. Friend the member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard for securing her first Westminster Hall debate, and for her sustained interest in the quality of bus stops and local transport provision. And honourable members will notice that I am, in fact, the Roads Minister, not the parliamentary Under-Secretary of state for Local Transport and Equalities.
Not only does he have a very long job title, but he also is required in the main chamber for equalities questions, hence why you have myself substituting. But I can assure honourable members that I will be reporting back to him the excellent quality and issues raised during the debate. Clearly, as the Roads Minister, I too, of course, recognise the importance of bus stops and the important effect that has on the streetscape. So I think it was very clear from my friend's contribution that she's very passionate and informed about the importance of bus journeys to everyone.
And of course, improving bus journeys is a key part of the government's growth mission. We've made some important announcements on bus travel already, and we are determined to deliver better services, grow passenger numbers and connect people with jobs, education, healthcare and opportunity. The experience of using a bus, of course, does not begin when a passenger gets on board. It begins when they plan their journey reached a stop and decide whether that service feels convenient, reliable and welcoming.
As my honourable friend graphically described in her opening comments, she's absolutely right that the quality of a bus stop is about more than accessibility, though of course, accessibility is vital. Passengers notice whether a stop is easy to find and use, whether it offers shelter or seating where appropriate, whether it's clean, whether the surroundings feel safe and well maintained. And of course, as we discussed, whether there is information that is clear and current about services, those features help determine not only whether someone can use the bus, but whether they would actually make an active choice to do so.
So I welcome my hon. Friend's support for the Bus Services Act 2025. The Act places passenger needs and local accountability at the heart of bus services, giving local leaders greater freedom and the tools to shape networks around the communities they serve. That approach reflects a simple principle local transport authorities know their areas and are best placed to plan improvements across the whole local bus network. That is why the department's vision for buses goes within.
An integrated transport system, puts local transport authorities at the centre of delivery of allocated almost £700 million a year through the local authority bus grant for the three years from 2026 27 to 2829. In return for Department of Transport bus funding, authorities are expected to work closely with operators and local communities and to maintain an up to date bus service improvement plan. Now, a bus service improvement plan is a public document. It should set out an authority's vision and practical plan for improving services and growing patronage.
Our guidance encourages authorities to take a strategic approach to stops and interchanges, including keeping an inventory of infrastructure, identifying priorities for investment and setting locally appropriate standards for facilities and maintenance. Bus funding can support capital improvements to stops, stations and real time information, as well as services and fares. The my hon. Friend has argued that local transport authorities should have clear responsibility for bus stops, rather than responsibility being fragmented across different tiers of local government.
And of course, I understand the force of that point. The government's approach already places the local transport authority in the lead for planning and improving the bus network through its bus services improvement plan and, where relevant, the enhanced partnership. So where responsibility for highways or individual assets sits elsewhere, close and effective working between the relevant authorities is, of course, essential. We expect local plans to join up services, infrastructure and passenger information rather than treat them as separate issues.
No doubt that will be music to the ears of my hon. Friend the member for Cambridge, who explained his frustrations at the Cambridge station and bus interchange. I'm not sure whether he was complaining he had to walk 200m, or whether that was causing the disconnect between the bus and rail services, but I hope that that's something that we will see improved on, because that is actually, I think, a very common complaint from lots of members of the public.
Enhanced partnerships are an important part of that framework for authorities, which are not pursuing franchising. Most are performing well, but of course, performance is not consistent everywhere. Following the department's review, we have published updated guidance and a practical manual, including minimum standards for enhanced partnerships to adopt. By March of next year. We will continue to share good practice in the bus Centre of excellence will provide targeted support where it is most needed. We also recognise the case made by my hon.
Friend, which echoes that of the Campaign for Better Transport for a national bus stop standard. Greater consistency can give passengers confidence about what they can expect, but at the same time, we have to acknowledge that there are around 330,000 bus stops in England, ranging from simple bus stop flags attached to a post to stop with shelters, seating, real time information and other enhanced facilities. So it's clear, I think, that the needs of a busy urban interchange will differ significantly from those of the lightly used rural stop, and careful consideration would therefore need to be given before taking action to prescribe a uniform national standard, not least the potential burden on local authorities of the cost and practicality of doing so.
It is worth noting that the Local Government Association's general approach is to avoid national standards that reduce the discretion of local authorities to take decisions about their own networks, although it does support the government's role in promoting and sharing best practice. The government's prudent approach is therefore to set a clear national framework and guidance, whilst asking local transport authorities to establish and deliver standards suited to local circumstances through their bus service improvement plans. I think that strikes the correct balance, but we will continue to share good practice through our guidance and the bus centre of excellence, which I think my hon.
Friend was asking about, will be considering points raised in this debate and actually looking whether any of that can be put into future updates to guidance. As was mentioned, good passenger information is central to standards. Real time information is improving and digital information has transformed many journeys. But passengers must also be able to rely on accurate, understandable information at the stop. Our bus service improvement plan is clear that stops should display up to date information about the services calling there, and the authorities should set out what they will do to provide that good quality information, of course, as well, accessibility remains fundamental within this wider picture.
A stop cannot be considered good quality if disabled people cannot reach it, wait safely or indeed board independently. The Bus Services Act 2025 introduced measures including bus network accessibility plans and powers for statutory guidance on the safety and accessibility of stopping places. The department is developing that further guidance with disabled people, local authorities and the wider sector. And, of course, on that point, my hon. Friend the member for Shrewsbury has raised what is undoubtedly one of the hot topics in the bus stop world, which is that of a floating bus stops, and there is, of course, a great deal of concern and discussion nationally about their use.
So we have issued statutory guidance and asked authorities to pause new installations of the design that requires passengers to alight directly onto a cycle track, while further research is undertaken. And I hope that the local authority and my hon. Friend's jurisdiction will be reporting back on their experiences because the more information we get from local authorities on this, the better. It is important that we look very closely at the everyday quality, information, maintenance and governance of all bus stops and clearly getting the balance right on floating bus stops is an important part of that work.
So in conclusion, Mr. Shelbrooke, I would sorry, Sir Alec, I would like to thank my hon. Friend for bringing this issue before the House. We do agree on the central point that bus stops are not a peripheral piece of street furniture. They are an essential part of the bus network and of the passenger experience through the Bus Services Act. Sustained funding, bus service improvement plans, a stronger enhanced partnerships and clearer guidance.
We are giving local leaders the tools and responsibility to make bus travel a more attractive choice, and I have no doubt that we will continue to discuss how we improve on that as the years move by.
Not only does he have a very long job title, but he also is required in the main chamber for equalities questions, hence why you have myself substituting. But I can assure honourable members that I will be reporting back to him the excellent quality and issues raised during the debate. Clearly, as the Roads Minister, I too, of course, recognise the importance of bus stops and the important effect that has on the streetscape. So I think it was very clear from my friend's contribution that she's very passionate and informed about the importance of bus journeys to everyone.
And of course, improving bus journeys is a key part of the government's growth mission. We've made some important announcements on bus travel already, and we are determined to deliver better services, grow passenger numbers and connect people with jobs, education, healthcare and opportunity. The experience of using a bus, of course, does not begin when a passenger gets on board. It begins when they plan their journey reached a stop and decide whether that service feels convenient, reliable and welcoming.
As my honourable friend graphically described in her opening comments, she's absolutely right that the quality of a bus stop is about more than accessibility, though of course, accessibility is vital. Passengers notice whether a stop is easy to find and use, whether it offers shelter or seating where appropriate, whether it's clean, whether the surroundings feel safe and well maintained. And of course, as we discussed, whether there is information that is clear and current about services, those features help determine not only whether someone can use the bus, but whether they would actually make an active choice to do so.
So I welcome my hon. Friend's support for the Bus Services Act 2025. The Act places passenger needs and local accountability at the heart of bus services, giving local leaders greater freedom and the tools to shape networks around the communities they serve. That approach reflects a simple principle local transport authorities know their areas and are best placed to plan improvements across the whole local bus network. That is why the department's vision for buses goes within.
An integrated transport system, puts local transport authorities at the centre of delivery of allocated almost £700 million a year through the local authority bus grant for the three years from 2026 27 to 2829. In return for Department of Transport bus funding, authorities are expected to work closely with operators and local communities and to maintain an up to date bus service improvement plan. Now, a bus service improvement plan is a public document. It should set out an authority's vision and practical plan for improving services and growing patronage.
Our guidance encourages authorities to take a strategic approach to stops and interchanges, including keeping an inventory of infrastructure, identifying priorities for investment and setting locally appropriate standards for facilities and maintenance. Bus funding can support capital improvements to stops, stations and real time information, as well as services and fares. The my hon. Friend has argued that local transport authorities should have clear responsibility for bus stops, rather than responsibility being fragmented across different tiers of local government.
And of course, I understand the force of that point. The government's approach already places the local transport authority in the lead for planning and improving the bus network through its bus services improvement plan and, where relevant, the enhanced partnership. So where responsibility for highways or individual assets sits elsewhere, close and effective working between the relevant authorities is, of course, essential. We expect local plans to join up services, infrastructure and passenger information rather than treat them as separate issues.
No doubt that will be music to the ears of my hon. Friend the member for Cambridge, who explained his frustrations at the Cambridge station and bus interchange. I'm not sure whether he was complaining he had to walk 200m, or whether that was causing the disconnect between the bus and rail services, but I hope that that's something that we will see improved on, because that is actually, I think, a very common complaint from lots of members of the public.
Enhanced partnerships are an important part of that framework for authorities, which are not pursuing franchising. Most are performing well, but of course, performance is not consistent everywhere. Following the department's review, we have published updated guidance and a practical manual, including minimum standards for enhanced partnerships to adopt. By March of next year. We will continue to share good practice in the bus Centre of excellence will provide targeted support where it is most needed. We also recognise the case made by my hon.
Friend, which echoes that of the Campaign for Better Transport for a national bus stop standard. Greater consistency can give passengers confidence about what they can expect, but at the same time, we have to acknowledge that there are around 330,000 bus stops in England, ranging from simple bus stop flags attached to a post to stop with shelters, seating, real time information and other enhanced facilities. So it's clear, I think, that the needs of a busy urban interchange will differ significantly from those of the lightly used rural stop, and careful consideration would therefore need to be given before taking action to prescribe a uniform national standard, not least the potential burden on local authorities of the cost and practicality of doing so.
It is worth noting that the Local Government Association's general approach is to avoid national standards that reduce the discretion of local authorities to take decisions about their own networks, although it does support the government's role in promoting and sharing best practice. The government's prudent approach is therefore to set a clear national framework and guidance, whilst asking local transport authorities to establish and deliver standards suited to local circumstances through their bus service improvement plans. I think that strikes the correct balance, but we will continue to share good practice through our guidance and the bus centre of excellence, which I think my hon.
Friend was asking about, will be considering points raised in this debate and actually looking whether any of that can be put into future updates to guidance. As was mentioned, good passenger information is central to standards. Real time information is improving and digital information has transformed many journeys. But passengers must also be able to rely on accurate, understandable information at the stop. Our bus service improvement plan is clear that stops should display up to date information about the services calling there, and the authorities should set out what they will do to provide that good quality information, of course, as well, accessibility remains fundamental within this wider picture.
A stop cannot be considered good quality if disabled people cannot reach it, wait safely or indeed board independently. The Bus Services Act 2025 introduced measures including bus network accessibility plans and powers for statutory guidance on the safety and accessibility of stopping places. The department is developing that further guidance with disabled people, local authorities and the wider sector. And, of course, on that point, my hon. Friend the member for Shrewsbury has raised what is undoubtedly one of the hot topics in the bus stop world, which is that of a floating bus stops, and there is, of course, a great deal of concern and discussion nationally about their use.
So we have issued statutory guidance and asked authorities to pause new installations of the design that requires passengers to alight directly onto a cycle track, while further research is undertaken. And I hope that the local authority and my hon. Friend's jurisdiction will be reporting back on their experiences because the more information we get from local authorities on this, the better. It is important that we look very closely at the everyday quality, information, maintenance and governance of all bus stops and clearly getting the balance right on floating bus stops is an important part of that work.
So in conclusion, Mr. Shelbrooke, I would sorry, Sir Alec, I would like to thank my hon. Friend for bringing this issue before the House. We do agree on the central point that bus stops are not a peripheral piece of street furniture. They are an essential part of the bus network and of the passenger experience through the Bus Services Act. Sustained funding, bus service improvement plans, a stronger enhanced partnerships and clearer guidance.
We are giving local leaders the tools and responsibility to make bus travel a more attractive choice, and I have no doubt that we will continue to discuss how we improve on that as the years move by.
11:28
11:28
14:30
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
This House has considered government funding for local pharmacies. It is an honor to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr. Betts, and I am pleased to sponsor this debate and thank colleagues from all sides of the House for joining me today to discuss this vital pillar of our primary care network. Community pharmacies are the frontline of health care in our constituencies in Leicester East. They are not just a commercial premises, but are places that serve the very heart of our community.
It is estimated that 1.6 million people access pharmacy services in neighbourhoods every day, ranging from elderly residents accessing swift advice, busy families picking up emergency prescriptions, and vulnerable constituents using the opportunity to receive health care close to home without needing a GP appointment. But despite this, across the country and in Leicester East, this crucial sector is reaching a tipping point. The NHS is own . Independent economic analysis of community pharmacy finances revealed that community pharmacy is facing a funding gap of around £2.5 billion, as a consequence of that, between 2016 and 2026, England has lost roughly 1000 pharmacies.
That's an 8% decline in Leicester East. We have seen our local provision drop from 32 pharmacies down to 29. That is a net loss of 9% of our local community network. Behind those numbers is a harsh reality for a vast number of people. Not only do we have to consider the impact of small business closures on our local high streets, but also the everyday consequences for residents who rely on pharmacies for their care.
Although a loss of three pharmacies may sound like a minor shift, the real implication is deeply concerning. Fewer pharmacies mean longer journeys for frail patients, longer queues at the counters that remain open, and increased pressure on nearby GP surgeries that are forced to pick up the slack. We have seen a 19.5% increase in online pharmacies since 2021, and although it is positive that medication and assessments can be accessed in this way, it must be a priority for this government to protect our in-person high street chemists.
When we examine why these closures are happening, it is obviously not due to a lack of demand. People across my constituency recognise the importance of local pharmacies and use their services constantly. The reason for these closures lies in the structural financial strains that make running an independent pharmacy untenable. My team and I have had several conversations with the owners and staff of pharmacies across Leicester East, and I want to recognize and thank them for all of their hard work on the frontline of our healthcare provision.
But they have raised several alarming issues, and I hope that by outlining them today, we can collectively commit to positive and constructive changes to support these independent businesses. The current reimbursement model for medicines is the first aspect of the system that fails independent providers. As it stands, pharmacies are expected to buy medicines upfront. They can then wait anywhere from 2 to 3 months for the NHS to reimburse those costs. To make matters more severe, the NHS reimbursement calculation works on an assumption that pharmacies are receiving massive bulk buy discounts from suppliers.
Large national chains may possess the purchasing power to make that assumption work. But for a small, independent community pharmacy in Leicester East, those bulk discounts simply do not exist. They are routinely paying more to acquire necessary drugs than the NHS repays them, while concessionary pricing mechanisms exist to adjust for market spikes. The delay in these adjustments means independent contractors are constantly left bridging the shortfall. That disparity forces wholesalers to look overseas for cheaper stock, creating supply chain bottlenecks and leaving local pharmacists to face the frustration of patients when vital medicines are backordered for weeks.
The Independent Pharmacies Association recently conducted research that shows an average pharmacy dispensing 10,000 items a month still faces a shortfall of circa £56,000, against what would be needed to keep in pace with inflation. Pharmacies cannot be expected to expect it to continue footing this bill. The government must do more to ensure that pharmacies are properly reimbursed, to prevent creating further pressure and demand on other areas of our NHS. On top of these margin pressures, pharmacy owners in my constituency are caught in a constant struggle between the rising operating costs and completely fixed incomes.
Over recent years, overheads have increased right across the board. The recent decisions to raise employer National Insurance contributions and the minimum wage and escalate business rate liabilities have significantly increased the financial burden on pharmacies up and down the country. Furthermore, unlike other small high street businesses, community pharmacies receive no business rate reliefs on their premises. A major oversight for essential healthcare providers operating right at the heart of our local economies.
When running costs go up for a normal high street business, say, a local shop, cafe or dry cleaners, they can adjust their prices to cover higher wage bills and energy costs. Independent community pharmacies cannot do that. Their primary income is fixed directly by the government tariff. When employment taxes increase or utility bills rise, independent businesses business owners cannot pass those costs on. They must absorb the loss directly until their reserves run dry.
I welcome that our new Prime Minister has introduced business rates relief for the leisure and hospitality sector, but I would ask the Minister whether, as a conservative, I believe in supporting small business owners, encouraging enterprise and removing off our local GP surgeries. We must fix the underlying economic model that keeps their doors open. Necessary administrative barriers high street pharmacies are independent businesses delivering front line public care efficiently. But when government policy sets fixed tariffs while escalating business rates, liabilities and employment taxes, it creates a system that actively undermines those independent providers.
I would ask the minister to address four specific practical areas today. Firstly, reimbursement reform. We must review the drug reimbursement formula and concessionary pricing mechanisms so that payment calculations reflect the actual market acquisition prices paid by the independent pharmacies, rather than relying on assumed bulk discount rates. That's more independent businesses simply cannot access. Secondly, contractual and operational certainty, we need to update the Cpcph framework to ensure that core funding is predictable, transparent and fair, rather than heavily dependent on variable patchy referral targets managed by NHS bodies over which pharmacy owners have no control.
Thirdly, business overhead and rates relief. I urge the Minister to work with colleagues in the Treasury to address the the cumulative tax and cost burden facing small health providers. That includes reviewing business rate liabilities and the impact of the employer. National insurance contribution increases on independent high street providers. And finally, workforce and capacity support. NHS workforce planning must balance the expansion of primary care roles with the baseline staffing requirements of high street community pharmacies, as policies like independent prescribing expand.
Ministers must ensure that independent pharmacies are provided with a direct resource and funding needed to put these clinical roles into practice safely. Community pharmacies are one of the most cost effective, high impact assets in that our healthcare system possesses. They keep people well, they prevent avoidable emergency admissions, and they give local high streets across Leicester East and across the country vital commercial and civic life. The current approach needs real correction to ensure independent business owners and patients are properly supported.
I look forward to hearing the minister's response, and I urge the government to give our local pharmacies the financial certainty and stability that they desperately need and deserve.
It is estimated that 1.6 million people access pharmacy services in neighbourhoods every day, ranging from elderly residents accessing swift advice, busy families picking up emergency prescriptions, and vulnerable constituents using the opportunity to receive health care close to home without needing a GP appointment. But despite this, across the country and in Leicester East, this crucial sector is reaching a tipping point. The NHS is own . Independent economic analysis of community pharmacy finances revealed that community pharmacy is facing a funding gap of around £2.5 billion, as a consequence of that, between 2016 and 2026, England has lost roughly 1000 pharmacies.
That's an 8% decline in Leicester East. We have seen our local provision drop from 32 pharmacies down to 29. That is a net loss of 9% of our local community network. Behind those numbers is a harsh reality for a vast number of people. Not only do we have to consider the impact of small business closures on our local high streets, but also the everyday consequences for residents who rely on pharmacies for their care.
Although a loss of three pharmacies may sound like a minor shift, the real implication is deeply concerning. Fewer pharmacies mean longer journeys for frail patients, longer queues at the counters that remain open, and increased pressure on nearby GP surgeries that are forced to pick up the slack. We have seen a 19.5% increase in online pharmacies since 2021, and although it is positive that medication and assessments can be accessed in this way, it must be a priority for this government to protect our in-person high street chemists.
When we examine why these closures are happening, it is obviously not due to a lack of demand. People across my constituency recognise the importance of local pharmacies and use their services constantly. The reason for these closures lies in the structural financial strains that make running an independent pharmacy untenable. My team and I have had several conversations with the owners and staff of pharmacies across Leicester East, and I want to recognize and thank them for all of their hard work on the frontline of our healthcare provision.
But they have raised several alarming issues, and I hope that by outlining them today, we can collectively commit to positive and constructive changes to support these independent businesses. The current reimbursement model for medicines is the first aspect of the system that fails independent providers. As it stands, pharmacies are expected to buy medicines upfront. They can then wait anywhere from 2 to 3 months for the NHS to reimburse those costs. To make matters more severe, the NHS reimbursement calculation works on an assumption that pharmacies are receiving massive bulk buy discounts from suppliers.
Large national chains may possess the purchasing power to make that assumption work. But for a small, independent community pharmacy in Leicester East, those bulk discounts simply do not exist. They are routinely paying more to acquire necessary drugs than the NHS repays them, while concessionary pricing mechanisms exist to adjust for market spikes. The delay in these adjustments means independent contractors are constantly left bridging the shortfall. That disparity forces wholesalers to look overseas for cheaper stock, creating supply chain bottlenecks and leaving local pharmacists to face the frustration of patients when vital medicines are backordered for weeks.
The Independent Pharmacies Association recently conducted research that shows an average pharmacy dispensing 10,000 items a month still faces a shortfall of circa £56,000, against what would be needed to keep in pace with inflation. Pharmacies cannot be expected to expect it to continue footing this bill. The government must do more to ensure that pharmacies are properly reimbursed, to prevent creating further pressure and demand on other areas of our NHS. On top of these margin pressures, pharmacy owners in my constituency are caught in a constant struggle between the rising operating costs and completely fixed incomes.
Over recent years, overheads have increased right across the board. The recent decisions to raise employer National Insurance contributions and the minimum wage and escalate business rate liabilities have significantly increased the financial burden on pharmacies up and down the country. Furthermore, unlike other small high street businesses, community pharmacies receive no business rate reliefs on their premises. A major oversight for essential healthcare providers operating right at the heart of our local economies.
When running costs go up for a normal high street business, say, a local shop, cafe or dry cleaners, they can adjust their prices to cover higher wage bills and energy costs. Independent community pharmacies cannot do that. Their primary income is fixed directly by the government tariff. When employment taxes increase or utility bills rise, independent businesses business owners cannot pass those costs on. They must absorb the loss directly until their reserves run dry.
I welcome that our new Prime Minister has introduced business rates relief for the leisure and hospitality sector, but I would ask the Minister whether, as a conservative, I believe in supporting small business owners, encouraging enterprise and removing off our local GP surgeries. We must fix the underlying economic model that keeps their doors open. Necessary administrative barriers high street pharmacies are independent businesses delivering front line public care efficiently. But when government policy sets fixed tariffs while escalating business rates, liabilities and employment taxes, it creates a system that actively undermines those independent providers.
I would ask the minister to address four specific practical areas today. Firstly, reimbursement reform. We must review the drug reimbursement formula and concessionary pricing mechanisms so that payment calculations reflect the actual market acquisition prices paid by the independent pharmacies, rather than relying on assumed bulk discount rates. That's more independent businesses simply cannot access. Secondly, contractual and operational certainty, we need to update the Cpcph framework to ensure that core funding is predictable, transparent and fair, rather than heavily dependent on variable patchy referral targets managed by NHS bodies over which pharmacy owners have no control.
Thirdly, business overhead and rates relief. I urge the Minister to work with colleagues in the Treasury to address the the cumulative tax and cost burden facing small health providers. That includes reviewing business rate liabilities and the impact of the employer. National insurance contribution increases on independent high street providers. And finally, workforce and capacity support. NHS workforce planning must balance the expansion of primary care roles with the baseline staffing requirements of high street community pharmacies, as policies like independent prescribing expand.
Ministers must ensure that independent pharmacies are provided with a direct resource and funding needed to put these clinical roles into practice safely. Community pharmacies are one of the most cost effective, high impact assets in that our healthcare system possesses. They keep people well, they prevent avoidable emergency admissions, and they give local high streets across Leicester East and across the country vital commercial and civic life. The current approach needs real correction to ensure independent business owners and patients are properly supported.
I look forward to hearing the minister's response, and I urge the government to give our local pharmacies the financial certainty and stability that they desperately need and deserve.
14:45
14:45
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The question is this House consider government funding for local pharmacies. Right. We've got six on members have indicated. So that's about seven minutes each. I just say normally I'd say, Bob, if you want to speak during the course of debate, but there are two honourable members who have indicated they have challenging circumstances. I think we'll exempt them from that requirement on this occasion. So let's move on to Sadiq. Allison.
Thank you, chair.
Thank you, chair.
14:45
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It is a pleasure to serve under your chair. And as many of you may know, I am here today wearing hats. Two of them both pharmacy shaped as the chair of the all party parliamentary group on pharmacy and as a community pharmacist for nearly 20 years. The brilliant, unrelenting work of pharmacy teams that I saw in my colleagues throughout my career is the reason why this debate is so important. Pharmacists know what it's like to be the first port of call to an unwell patient, to be delivering vaccinations to an entire community, and to work exhausting long days.
14:46
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
On that point. Happy to thank you for giving way. I congratulate the honourable member for East for securing this debate. On the point of vaccination. My hon. Friend will be aware that the measles outbreaks are growing in the country, not least due to a decline in MMR vaccination, and the government has told the select committee, which I sit on, that the Health and Social Care Select Committee, that they need to do more with schools and GPS.
Our contention has been that they need to use pharmacies far more. Would he agree with me that they all families visit pharmacies. They are an obvious place for the government to. They should enable pharmacies to give MMR vaccinations and grip this properly so we actually can crack the challenge of the measles outbreaks, which seem to be increasing in our country.
Our contention has been that they need to use pharmacies far more. Would he agree with me that they all families visit pharmacies. They are an obvious place for the government to. They should enable pharmacies to give MMR vaccinations and grip this properly so we actually can crack the challenge of the measles outbreaks, which seem to be increasing in our country.
14:47
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I'd like to thank my hon. Friend for their intervention and their work on the Select Committee. I have to say I agree. Pharmacy is well placed to help offer additional vaccination services for other conditions, as well as a suite of other minor ailments with an expanded pharmacy. First, and I greatly welcome the uplift for 26 and 27 in the pharmacy contract. But let's be honest about the scale of the problem, because funding fell by £800 million in real terms between 2015 and 16 and the 2526, even as prescription volumes rose by 20%.
Last year's funding settlement was a great amount, but with a great amount of costs that has been eaten up. The government's independent analysis found a £2 billion annual funding gap, and nationally we have lost nearly 1500 pharmacies since 2017. That's a 15% contraction of the network in my own constituency of North Somerset. That story is written in bricks and mortar, six fewer pharmacies than in 2016. And yet those amazing pharmacies, I'd be happy to give way.
Last year's funding settlement was a great amount, but with a great amount of costs that has been eaten up. The government's independent analysis found a £2 billion annual funding gap, and nationally we have lost nearly 1500 pharmacies since 2017. That's a 15% contraction of the network in my own constituency of North Somerset. That story is written in bricks and mortar, six fewer pharmacies than in 2016. And yet those amazing pharmacies, I'd be happy to give way.
14:48
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Member for Giving way. Last Friday, I visited a community pharmacy in Tiverton in my constituency, and it was announced on Monday that they have been turned down for an application for another pharmacy. So currently I have three pharmacies in Tiverton when I actually need four. Would the honourable member agree that we really need to to grasp this nettle and just make sure we have enough pharmacies on our high streets?
14:48
14:48
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I'd like to thank the honourable member for their intervention, and I have to share their commitment to getting the right amount of pharmacies for the people they serve, because that's an important part of not just our high streets, but our communities, making sure that we have pharmacy services available to those people who need it, which reduces the the pressure. On
15:03
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
in West Dorset have helped avoid as many as 8737 GP appointments. This figures demonstrate the enormous contribution pharmacies make to our local NHS and why we cannot afford to lose them. Today. People are more likely to live with multiple long term conditions, require regular prescriptions and need advice and support close to home . For someone living in a rural village, a pharmacy is the most accessible point of contact with the NHS. It's why the funding model should properly recognise rurality and population age nationally.
Community pharmacy funding in 2025 2026 was around 800 million lower in real terms than it was in 20 1516, despite a 16% increase in the number of NHS prescription items dispensed over that period. Since 2017, there has been a net loss of 147 bricks and mortar pharmacies, which is a 15%, which is 15% of the network. I welcome the government's recent 10.3% funding increase worth £340 million, but the government's own independent economic analysis identified a funding gap of around 2 billion.
The extra 350 340 million does not close that gap. Some pharmacies in West Dorset have reported to me six figure annual shortfalls with poor funding. Poor funding leads to fewer staff, fewer staff leads to shorter opening hours and temporary closures and fewer services being offered. It means fewer people receiving their medicines and fewer patients able to access care. In NHS Dorset, there were 207 full time equivalent pharmacists in 2023, alongside 47 vacancies.
That's a vacancy rate of 19% in places like West Dorset. Rural Britain recruiting a permanent pharmacist can be extremely difficult. Pharmacies have to pay more to attract pharmacists from elsewhere, or bring in locums who have to travel significant distances. Those costs don't exist in the same extent in densely populated urban areas. It is therefore wrong to design a funding system that treats every pharmacy as if it operates in the same circumstances.
The Pharmacy Access Scheme provides some support for isolated pharmacies, but its funding pot is just £20 million. It is nowhere near sufficient to deal with the structural challenges facing rural pharmacy provision in England. We need a funding formula that properly recognises Rurality population, age, workforce, workforce pressures and the cost of serving sparsely populated communities. But Mr. Betts funding is not. Funding is only one part of the problem.
We also need stronger regulation and stronger powers to intervene when large corporate pharmacy operators fail. It's operated 150 branches across England. In west Dorset. Its pharmacies in Bridport and Lyme Regis were closed for months, disrupting disrupting prescription access for more than 12,000 people who rely on those services. The impact was felt throughout our community. It was felt by the patients who struggled to access their medicines. It was felt by other healthcare providers who had to deal with the consequences, and it was felt devastatingly by pharmacy staff.
Staff across multiple sites reported months without pay, despite receiving payslips and seeing deductions for tax and pensions, some were unable to pay their rent or household bills, and some relied on food banks and could not buy their children at school uniform. And Mr. Betts, I would like to pay tribute to the amazing staff in Bridport and Lyme Regis, the resilience that they showed during that time, and the support that was shown to them by the local community was outstanding and they did not deserve to be treated that way by the pharmacy owners.
Our regulatory framework was largely developed when pharmacies were mainly independent owned, independently owned businesses operating one or maybe two pharmacies. It is not kept pace with the growth of large corporate operators controlling extensive networks, local integrated care boards, local authorities and national bodies need the powers to intervene quickly, protect patients and staff, secure medicines and ensure continuity of service. When service collapsed, I raised the issue through an urgent question in the House and there was clear cross-party support for legislative action to make sure that that kind of crisis could not happen again.
And by the way, I would like to take the opportunity to pay tribute to my friend, the honourable member for North Somerset, who was a tireless campaigner alongside me and whose help and advice was invaluable during that period, and I'm extremely grateful to him. We need to strengthen the powers available to intervene where a provider fails to meet contractual, patient safety or workforce obligations, we need mechanisms to allow alternative providers to step in quickly. Hold corporate bodies, not the pharmacies, the corporate bodies, accountable and, where necessary, take away their rights to control an essential service.
And we need to protect pharmacy staff when a provider collapses, because protecting the workforce is inseparable from protecting patient safety. And I would politely say to the minister, when I met with her predecessor, these were the powers he was asking for in order to be able to step in during the scandal, we tried to attach these powers as amendments to the health bill and they weren't accepted. And so my final ask would be, Minister, to please meet with me, as your predecessor did, and other experts like the honourable member for North Somerset.
Let's get you the powers so we can stop this from ever happening again.
Community pharmacy funding in 2025 2026 was around 800 million lower in real terms than it was in 20 1516, despite a 16% increase in the number of NHS prescription items dispensed over that period. Since 2017, there has been a net loss of 147 bricks and mortar pharmacies, which is a 15%, which is 15% of the network. I welcome the government's recent 10.3% funding increase worth £340 million, but the government's own independent economic analysis identified a funding gap of around 2 billion.
The extra 350 340 million does not close that gap. Some pharmacies in West Dorset have reported to me six figure annual shortfalls with poor funding. Poor funding leads to fewer staff, fewer staff leads to shorter opening hours and temporary closures and fewer services being offered. It means fewer people receiving their medicines and fewer patients able to access care. In NHS Dorset, there were 207 full time equivalent pharmacists in 2023, alongside 47 vacancies.
That's a vacancy rate of 19% in places like West Dorset. Rural Britain recruiting a permanent pharmacist can be extremely difficult. Pharmacies have to pay more to attract pharmacists from elsewhere, or bring in locums who have to travel significant distances. Those costs don't exist in the same extent in densely populated urban areas. It is therefore wrong to design a funding system that treats every pharmacy as if it operates in the same circumstances.
The Pharmacy Access Scheme provides some support for isolated pharmacies, but its funding pot is just £20 million. It is nowhere near sufficient to deal with the structural challenges facing rural pharmacy provision in England. We need a funding formula that properly recognises Rurality population, age, workforce, workforce pressures and the cost of serving sparsely populated communities. But Mr. Betts funding is not. Funding is only one part of the problem.
We also need stronger regulation and stronger powers to intervene when large corporate pharmacy operators fail. It's operated 150 branches across England. In west Dorset. Its pharmacies in Bridport and Lyme Regis were closed for months, disrupting disrupting prescription access for more than 12,000 people who rely on those services. The impact was felt throughout our community. It was felt by the patients who struggled to access their medicines. It was felt by other healthcare providers who had to deal with the consequences, and it was felt devastatingly by pharmacy staff.
Staff across multiple sites reported months without pay, despite receiving payslips and seeing deductions for tax and pensions, some were unable to pay their rent or household bills, and some relied on food banks and could not buy their children at school uniform. And Mr. Betts, I would like to pay tribute to the amazing staff in Bridport and Lyme Regis, the resilience that they showed during that time, and the support that was shown to them by the local community was outstanding and they did not deserve to be treated that way by the pharmacy owners.
Our regulatory framework was largely developed when pharmacies were mainly independent owned, independently owned businesses operating one or maybe two pharmacies. It is not kept pace with the growth of large corporate operators controlling extensive networks, local integrated care boards, local authorities and national bodies need the powers to intervene quickly, protect patients and staff, secure medicines and ensure continuity of service. When service collapsed, I raised the issue through an urgent question in the House and there was clear cross-party support for legislative action to make sure that that kind of crisis could not happen again.
And by the way, I would like to take the opportunity to pay tribute to my friend, the honourable member for North Somerset, who was a tireless campaigner alongside me and whose help and advice was invaluable during that period, and I'm extremely grateful to him. We need to strengthen the powers available to intervene where a provider fails to meet contractual, patient safety or workforce obligations, we need mechanisms to allow alternative providers to step in quickly. Hold corporate bodies, not the pharmacies, the corporate bodies, accountable and, where necessary, take away their rights to control an essential service.
And we need to protect pharmacy staff when a provider collapses, because protecting the workforce is inseparable from protecting patient safety. And I would politely say to the minister, when I met with her predecessor, these were the powers he was asking for in order to be able to step in during the scandal, we tried to attach these powers as amendments to the health bill and they weren't accepted. And so my final ask would be, Minister, to please meet with me, as your predecessor did, and other experts like the honourable member for North Somerset.
Let's get you the powers so we can stop this from ever happening again.
15:08
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Thank you very much for calling me, and always a pleasure and a big thank you to the Honourable Lady for Leicester East for bringing the subject to our attention as a DUP spokesperson for health, and particularly concerned about the amount of support available to our local pharmacies. And just as an indication of that, there in the first statement that they. Which was summer health and resilience, I used that opportunity and I know the minister was in her place not to answer the question, but alongside the support that the Secretary of State.
I asked the Secretary of State what specific discussions that the state is having with counterparts in the devolved administration, particularly Northern Ireland, to ensure a UK wide, coordinated approach to to summer resilience. And I underlined the fact that on what target support has been made for community pharmacy networks, which so often act as their front line of defence when GP surgeries are stretched to capacity. As we prepare for the cold and flu season. To be fair to state, she answered that my request in question very well , and assured me, as the MP for Strangford, that those discussions are ongoing with.
Directly with the Minister back home and Northern Ireland, and that is a reassurance, but I think it does underline , if I can use it as an example, the importance of community pharmacies, what they mean to me in my constituency of Strangford and indeed what they mean to every one of us here. Mr. chairman, just last year, the National Pharmacy Association said was left with no choice but to recommend that the 6000 members take collective action for the first time in its history, setting significant new costs and adequate funding.
Around 90% of the work carried out by the average community pharmacy is funded by the NHS. This time last year, the National Pharmacy Association issued a very stark warning that up to 63% of pharmacies were more likely to close in 2026. And we're still in 2026. So that that threat hangs over all of our heads. 94% of pharmacies surveyed stating that the latest funding settlement did not provide stability to their finances. And these figures demonstrate the effect of persistent financial uncertainty on the sector.
Excuse me just a second. Yeah.
I asked the Secretary of State what specific discussions that the state is having with counterparts in the devolved administration, particularly Northern Ireland, to ensure a UK wide, coordinated approach to to summer resilience. And I underlined the fact that on what target support has been made for community pharmacy networks, which so often act as their front line of defence when GP surgeries are stretched to capacity. As we prepare for the cold and flu season. To be fair to state, she answered that my request in question very well , and assured me, as the MP for Strangford, that those discussions are ongoing with.
Directly with the Minister back home and Northern Ireland, and that is a reassurance, but I think it does underline , if I can use it as an example, the importance of community pharmacies, what they mean to me in my constituency of Strangford and indeed what they mean to every one of us here. Mr. chairman, just last year, the National Pharmacy Association said was left with no choice but to recommend that the 6000 members take collective action for the first time in its history, setting significant new costs and adequate funding.
Around 90% of the work carried out by the average community pharmacy is funded by the NHS. This time last year, the National Pharmacy Association issued a very stark warning that up to 63% of pharmacies were more likely to close in 2026. And we're still in 2026. So that that threat hangs over all of our heads. 94% of pharmacies surveyed stating that the latest funding settlement did not provide stability to their finances. And these figures demonstrate the effect of persistent financial uncertainty on the sector.
Excuse me just a second. Yeah.
15:10
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thank you. Yeah, I thank the it happens a lot J it happens a lot. I thank the honourable member for giving way. He mentions the closure of pharmacies. But it's not just the closure of pharmacies, but the the engine of some of those services, because sometimes it's the things that you notice the least that matter the most once they've gone. And for example, nomads is something where for people with neurological or mental health conditions, they rely on those to be able to have the right tablets on the right day.
And that is provided sometimes by our pharmacists. It's a really, really important service. Would he agree with me that by putting on the pressure on the pharmacies around finances, that we don't want to see those wonderful services that they do provide free of charge at the moment, being lost because they matter too much for the lives of our of our residents.
And that is provided sometimes by our pharmacists. It's a really, really important service. Would he agree with me that by putting on the pressure on the pharmacies around finances, that we don't want to see those wonderful services that they do provide free of charge at the moment, being lost because they matter too much for the lives of our of our residents.
15:11
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
And give me that chance to get a glass of water as well. And his comments and interventions are incredibly important. They underline, and he's right to say no gentleman is right to say whenever they're lost, they're almost impossible to bring back. And that's the issue. And the figures I referred to, I think, demonstrate the effect of persistent financial uncertainty in this sector. Local pharmacies are under ever increasing pressure. My particular concern is for small, independent pharmacies in rural constituencies such as my own.
These businesses are facing rising costs, increasing workloads and a real risk of insolvency, not to mention the personal toll this is having on the local pharmacy owners themselves. Sometimes this is what we say, sometimes it's forgotten when it comes to local pharmacies that they affect upon them individuals and their health is really important. Very happy to give way. Yes.
These businesses are facing rising costs, increasing workloads and a real risk of insolvency, not to mention the personal toll this is having on the local pharmacy owners themselves. Sometimes this is what we say, sometimes it's forgotten when it comes to local pharmacies that they affect upon them individuals and their health is really important. Very happy to give way. Yes.
15:12
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The honourable member for giving way and making the point of how much stress it puts on pharmacists and small business owners, because just in the last year, there's been a 2.3% increase in NHS items costs, 17% increase in service volumes and a 3% increase in inflation and operating costs like National Insurance and rates. And this all adds on to the pressure when, when when they should be concentrating on providing a very vital service to the community.
15:12
15:12
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
South South is supportive as I am and we don't have a Secret Service at this moment in time, but that's by the way I thank him for for his intervention and more importantly for the commentaries made underlines the issue, I believe, for local independent pharmacy owners as well. However, the heart of this issue, Mr. Chairman, is the patients. And sometimes we need to remember that. And I thank. The honourable gentleman referred to that very, very clearly in his speech.
Pharmacy closures are leaving many, and particularly those in rural areas, with greater difficulty accessing their medication. These concerns are deeply felt in Northern Ireland. The CEO of Community Pharmacy in Northern Ireland has warned officials that medicine shortages are having a greater impact in Northern Ireland because of of systemic funding pressures, with pharmacy pharmacies being forced to use their own money to bridge the gap in funding. And that's happening. That's a reality for those people who have a conscience and a compassion and a care for their patients and their customers.
The impact of this is clear, as almost 90% of pharmacies in Northern Ireland were unable to pay their wholesale bill in January. Just think about that for a second. What that means. That's pressure. That's real pressure. 90% of all pharmacies in Northern Ireland were only able to pay their bill in January. Further demonstrating these pressures is the number of pharmacies operating in Northern Ireland at 506, the lowest number ever ever recorded.
The minister I know is a compassionate lady and understands this incredibly well. Will be aware that these figures raise serious concerns about the financial sustainability of our pharmacies and the security of Northern Ireland's medicine supply, and indeed throughout the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Our pharmacies need certainty about their funding arrangements. They need to know well in advance what support will be available to them so that they can plan effectively, manage the costs, pay the bills and are not forced towards closure.
I have often highlighted, Mr. Chairman, that the ability of the pharmacy to provide first line defense in the fight against minor injuries is not utilized enough. The honourable gentleman for. For to my right hand side and I know Hunter will fill in the constituency. Outline. Richmond. He outlined some of the things that pharmacies do the front line defence, the things that maybe aren't seen by everyone, but they'll tell you what they're seen by the patients, they're seen by the customers who come in.
And I just underline some of those things. Every person who gives advice on treatment for a ward, for head lice, for thrush, for so many ailments from the pharmacy rather than their GP, is helping to ensure that GPS are not overwhelmed and that our A and E's are not overwhelmed as people can't see their GP. There's a there's something there that we perhaps, maybe don't always see, but which is clearly very, very important. Pharmacy, I believe, is a vital cog in the health service, and we must fund them to do the job they are capable and yet prevent it from doing so.
I look to the minister today for this funding and for that assurance. We know the Minister and honourable lady, who always tries to give us the reassurance that we need, tries to answer the questions that we posed to her. And I know these are hard times financially, but at the end of the day, we see something here that's really, really important, Mr. Chairman, for everyone, a savings that there is for the GP, the savings there is for the NHS, the pharmacies do that.
Let's support them. Thank you.
Pharmacy closures are leaving many, and particularly those in rural areas, with greater difficulty accessing their medication. These concerns are deeply felt in Northern Ireland. The CEO of Community Pharmacy in Northern Ireland has warned officials that medicine shortages are having a greater impact in Northern Ireland because of of systemic funding pressures, with pharmacy pharmacies being forced to use their own money to bridge the gap in funding. And that's happening. That's a reality for those people who have a conscience and a compassion and a care for their patients and their customers.
The impact of this is clear, as almost 90% of pharmacies in Northern Ireland were unable to pay their wholesale bill in January. Just think about that for a second. What that means. That's pressure. That's real pressure. 90% of all pharmacies in Northern Ireland were only able to pay their bill in January. Further demonstrating these pressures is the number of pharmacies operating in Northern Ireland at 506, the lowest number ever ever recorded.
The minister I know is a compassionate lady and understands this incredibly well. Will be aware that these figures raise serious concerns about the financial sustainability of our pharmacies and the security of Northern Ireland's medicine supply, and indeed throughout the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Our pharmacies need certainty about their funding arrangements. They need to know well in advance what support will be available to them so that they can plan effectively, manage the costs, pay the bills and are not forced towards closure.
I have often highlighted, Mr. Chairman, that the ability of the pharmacy to provide first line defense in the fight against minor injuries is not utilized enough. The honourable gentleman for. For to my right hand side and I know Hunter will fill in the constituency. Outline. Richmond. He outlined some of the things that pharmacies do the front line defence, the things that maybe aren't seen by everyone, but they'll tell you what they're seen by the patients, they're seen by the customers who come in.
And I just underline some of those things. Every person who gives advice on treatment for a ward, for head lice, for thrush, for so many ailments from the pharmacy rather than their GP, is helping to ensure that GPS are not overwhelmed and that our A and E's are not overwhelmed as people can't see their GP. There's a there's something there that we perhaps, maybe don't always see, but which is clearly very, very important. Pharmacy, I believe, is a vital cog in the health service, and we must fund them to do the job they are capable and yet prevent it from doing so.
I look to the minister today for this funding and for that assurance. We know the Minister and honourable lady, who always tries to give us the reassurance that we need, tries to answer the questions that we posed to her. And I know these are hard times financially, but at the end of the day, we see something here that's really, really important, Mr. Chairman, for everyone, a savings that there is for the GP, the savings there is for the NHS, the pharmacies do that.
Let's support them. Thank you.
15:16
15:16
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Yeah yeah yeah. Thank you, Mr. Betts. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Can I firstly congratulate my hon. Friend from Leicester East for securing such an important debate? Supporting our pharmacies is one of my long standing commitments, and I've spoken about this issue many times in the chamber. They are at the heart of primary care, and I'm grateful for the contribution that they make to our community.
Dispensing medicines, delivering vaccinations, offering advice for minor conditions and providing clinical services that would otherwise need to be delivered elsewhere. Pharmacies are accessible and embedded in our high streets for millions. They are the front door to the NHS. In my constituency of south west Hertfordshire, I've had the pleasure of speaking to pharmacists across the area, visiting Abbey Pharmacy in Abbots Langley, Boots in Kings Langley, Epsom Pharmacy in South Oxhey and even undertaking work experience at Riverside Pharmacy in Rickmansworth.
As I have raised in Parliament before. From my discussions, it is clear that our pharmacies are under unsustainable pressure as a result of the Labour Government's continued attack against retail businesses. While I welcome the government's commitment in their ten year health plan to move more health care responsibilities from hospitals into our communities, this is not feasible unless pharmacies receive the necessary financial support. It is important to note that community pharmacies have not been exempted from any of the government's harmful economic policies against retail businesses.
As such, since the government's announcement at the Autumn 2024 budget, the employer National Insurance contributions and the National Living Wage would have increased and the rate of business rates relief would be reduced. Pharmacies have now faced significantly higher operating costs. Yes, of course.
Dispensing medicines, delivering vaccinations, offering advice for minor conditions and providing clinical services that would otherwise need to be delivered elsewhere. Pharmacies are accessible and embedded in our high streets for millions. They are the front door to the NHS. In my constituency of south west Hertfordshire, I've had the pleasure of speaking to pharmacists across the area, visiting Abbey Pharmacy in Abbots Langley, Boots in Kings Langley, Epsom Pharmacy in South Oxhey and even undertaking work experience at Riverside Pharmacy in Rickmansworth.
As I have raised in Parliament before. From my discussions, it is clear that our pharmacies are under unsustainable pressure as a result of the Labour Government's continued attack against retail businesses. While I welcome the government's commitment in their ten year health plan to move more health care responsibilities from hospitals into our communities, this is not feasible unless pharmacies receive the necessary financial support. It is important to note that community pharmacies have not been exempted from any of the government's harmful economic policies against retail businesses.
As such, since the government's announcement at the Autumn 2024 budget, the employer National Insurance contributions and the National Living Wage would have increased and the rate of business rates relief would be reduced. Pharmacies have now faced significantly higher operating costs. Yes, of course.
15:18
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
For my honourable friend for giving way, the Lambourn pharmacy I referenced earlier worked out that about 90% of its profit was actually serving the NHS and it was only 10% was shampoo and other things. And so we're actually wondering if the government could pro rata that any and the other costs to the NHS. And then. So they only pay the 10%. I wonder if you would welcome that type of approach.
15:18
15:18
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Chancellor and Prime Minister sitting to my left. And he may argue that actually, just keeping it simple, I would argue a pharmacy's primary business is actually healthcare related, and we either support our healthcare system or we don't. And having it piecemeal, I would argue, is not in the best interests of what some of my residents regard as the frontline of the NHS system. Consequently, in the last 12 months alone, more than 600 pharmacies have closed.
This looks set to worsen as business rates relief for retail businesses have been removed for this financial year, a significant shift from the 75% business rates relief afforded to retail businesses in 2024 under the previous conservative government. Whilst GP practices can have their business rates reimbursed by the NHS and NHS, dental practices can also qualify for reimbursement so community pharmacies receive no equivalent compensation despite providing has been referred to earlier providing NHS services. Every day I ask how this is fair or reasonable at a time when the government is shifting more responsibility to the sector.
I have also been contacted. I've also been in contact with Community Pharmacy, Hertfordshire, and while the 2026 2027 Community Pharmacy Contract Framework does provide additional investment in community pharmacy, it still falls short of what is needed to put the sector on a sustainable financial footing. Research conducted by the Independent Pharmacy Association, who I think have done a brilliant campaign on this matter, shows that an average pharmacy dispensing 10,000 items a month still faces a shortfall of 5600 £0, against what would be needed to keep pace with inflation.
A very stretched financial situation. When I met with the previous Minister for care earlier this year, I was disappointed that he was not able to outline clear steps as to how this could be alleviated without a sustainable, longer term funding settlement. More pharmacies risk closing just as the NHS is asked to do more. It is also disappointing that the government has delayed pharmacy first payments under the previous conservative government.
The Pharmacy First initiative was introduced to allow community pharmacies to support patients with common conditions, reducing the pressure faced by GPS. Now, many pharmacies I speak to have said they are struggling to deliver this service as a result of the government's withholding of funding, the impact of pharmacies in our in delivering primary care should not be underestimated. Shifting more flu vaccinations into pharmacies could free up around 4.5 million GP appointments each year. In conclusion, pharmacies are accessible and already have the infrastructure and clinical expertise to provide more care closer to home, however, patients will only benefit from an expanded role for community pharmacies if their pharmacy stays open.
Currently, with unsustainable operating costs and limited government funding, this is becoming increasingly difficult without the financial support to deliver these services, many pharmacies risk closing if the government wants to shift care from hospitals into local communities, the funding must follow. Thank you.
This looks set to worsen as business rates relief for retail businesses have been removed for this financial year, a significant shift from the 75% business rates relief afforded to retail businesses in 2024 under the previous conservative government. Whilst GP practices can have their business rates reimbursed by the NHS and NHS, dental practices can also qualify for reimbursement so community pharmacies receive no equivalent compensation despite providing has been referred to earlier providing NHS services. Every day I ask how this is fair or reasonable at a time when the government is shifting more responsibility to the sector.
I have also been contacted. I've also been in contact with Community Pharmacy, Hertfordshire, and while the 2026 2027 Community Pharmacy Contract Framework does provide additional investment in community pharmacy, it still falls short of what is needed to put the sector on a sustainable financial footing. Research conducted by the Independent Pharmacy Association, who I think have done a brilliant campaign on this matter, shows that an average pharmacy dispensing 10,000 items a month still faces a shortfall of 5600 £0, against what would be needed to keep pace with inflation.
A very stretched financial situation. When I met with the previous Minister for care earlier this year, I was disappointed that he was not able to outline clear steps as to how this could be alleviated without a sustainable, longer term funding settlement. More pharmacies risk closing just as the NHS is asked to do more. It is also disappointing that the government has delayed pharmacy first payments under the previous conservative government.
The Pharmacy First initiative was introduced to allow community pharmacies to support patients with common conditions, reducing the pressure faced by GPS. Now, many pharmacies I speak to have said they are struggling to deliver this service as a result of the government's withholding of funding, the impact of pharmacies in our in delivering primary care should not be underestimated. Shifting more flu vaccinations into pharmacies could free up around 4.5 million GP appointments each year. In conclusion, pharmacies are accessible and already have the infrastructure and clinical expertise to provide more care closer to home, however, patients will only benefit from an expanded role for community pharmacies if their pharmacy stays open.
Currently, with unsustainable operating costs and limited government funding, this is becoming increasingly difficult without the financial support to deliver these services, many pharmacies risk closing if the government wants to shift care from hospitals into local communities, the funding must follow. Thank you.
15:21
15:22
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
Thank you, Mr. Betts. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, and I'd like to sincerely commend the honourable member for Leicester East for bringing forward this important debate and setting it out in such clear terms. Community pharmacies are often overlooked as a source of care for those in need. Yet in constituencies like mine in Mid-sussex, they are vital. Many of us know what the 8 a.m.
rush for a GP appointment can be like. So the fact that there is an alternative, trusted high street healthcare service where people can simply walk in, speak to a professional and receive advice and treatment is enormously valuable. It is also exactly the kind of shift towards preventative and community based care that we need to see more of, not less. Pharmacies take pressure off GP surgeries. They help people get advice earlier, manage conditions locally and importantly, can keep people out of hospital.
But community pharmacies, as we've heard this afternoon, are themselves under immense pressure. Last year I visited Kamsons Pharmacy at the Vale Primary Care Centre in Haywards Heath, where I met Julia from Community Pharmacy, Surrey and Sussex. Mark and the wider Kamsons team. What struck me was just how much these local pharmacists do beyond simply dispensing medicines. A little bit like the Right Honourable member for Richmond and Northallerton when he was much younger.
Kamsons provide free home deliveries for prescriptions and help patients organise multiple prescriptions into pill organizers for vulnerable and elderly residents. These services can literally be a lifeline. They enable people to remain independent and continue living safely in their own homes, while having the support they need to manage their medication. The team I met were enthusiastic and deeply committed to helping local people, but they also expressed real disappointment at the level of support currently available to community pharmacies.
There is a strong feeling among local branches that the extraordinary contribution pharmacies made during the pandemic has been forgotten, and they are struggling to balance the books. As a number of honourable members have explained, community pharmacy funding has fallen substantially in real terms over the past decade. The government's recent funding settlement is a welcome step in the right direction, with significant increases announced for 24, 25 and 2526 and continued support for services such as pharmacy first blood pressure checks and contraception.
But we must be honest about the scale of the challenge. This additional funding comes after years of financial pressure. While analysis has identified a funding gap of more than £2 billion across community pharmacies, rising energy, staffing and medicines costs are placing further strain on businesses that are already operating on tight margins. And there is another pressure that patients increasingly experience directly medicine shortages. Pharmacists tell me that they can spend hours every day simply trying to source medicines that have been asked to dispense.
That is time which could be spent with patients. And it also means that the pressure does not stop at the pharmacy door. In my constituency, I've heard from patients whose pharmacists have had to reduce opening hours and staffing because of financial pressures. When a pharmacy closes earlier, a prescription issued later in the day can potentially be delayed until the following day. For someone waiting for an essential medicine, that can be deeply distressing.
And when a pharmacy is struggling to fulfill prescriptions, the consequences ripple through the entire health service. A patient who cannot get their medication may return to their GP. A GP surgery then has another appointment to deal with, and a patient whose condition worsens may ultimately require hospital treatment, and another pharmacy, already under pressure may have to pick up the pieces when a patient desperately seeks an alternative. That is why I ask the minister to look at community pharmacies not as an optional extra, but as a vital piece of the system.
We can see the difference locally through pharmacy first, community pharmacies in my area have reportedly saved almost 2000 GP appointments, 1937 appointments to be precise. That is 1937 occasions on which people have been able to receive appropriate care closer to home, while freeing up GP capacity for those who need it most. That is the model we should be expanding, but we cannot ask pharmacies to keep doing more with less.
The Liberal Democrats are calling for a new long term and sustainable funding model for community pharmacies, and I would also like to press the minister in her remarks as to whether she will seek to change the provision the the health Bill when it goes to the Lords in respect of my hon. Friend the member for West. Dorset's amendments about rescuing pharmacies when they've gone bust. That is something the Liberal Democrats also supported.
We want to see further investment directed towards smaller towns and rural areas, as other honourable members have set out, including parts of Mid Sussex where access can be particularly difficult. We want to see pharmacy first expanded, giving patients more accessible, routine services and freeing up GPS to concentrate on more complex cases. We want an exemption for pharmacies from the National Insurance contribution increase, so that funds are being spent on patients and vital medications, and we also need to tackle the practical problem of medicine shortages.
Pharmacists need greater flexibility to substitute medicines where clinically appropriate, rather than spending hours trying to source a particular product that may simply not be available.
rush for a GP appointment can be like. So the fact that there is an alternative, trusted high street healthcare service where people can simply walk in, speak to a professional and receive advice and treatment is enormously valuable. It is also exactly the kind of shift towards preventative and community based care that we need to see more of, not less. Pharmacies take pressure off GP surgeries. They help people get advice earlier, manage conditions locally and importantly, can keep people out of hospital.
But community pharmacies, as we've heard this afternoon, are themselves under immense pressure. Last year I visited Kamsons Pharmacy at the Vale Primary Care Centre in Haywards Heath, where I met Julia from Community Pharmacy, Surrey and Sussex. Mark and the wider Kamsons team. What struck me was just how much these local pharmacists do beyond simply dispensing medicines. A little bit like the Right Honourable member for Richmond and Northallerton when he was much younger.
Kamsons provide free home deliveries for prescriptions and help patients organise multiple prescriptions into pill organizers for vulnerable and elderly residents. These services can literally be a lifeline. They enable people to remain independent and continue living safely in their own homes, while having the support they need to manage their medication. The team I met were enthusiastic and deeply committed to helping local people, but they also expressed real disappointment at the level of support currently available to community pharmacies.
There is a strong feeling among local branches that the extraordinary contribution pharmacies made during the pandemic has been forgotten, and they are struggling to balance the books. As a number of honourable members have explained, community pharmacy funding has fallen substantially in real terms over the past decade. The government's recent funding settlement is a welcome step in the right direction, with significant increases announced for 24, 25 and 2526 and continued support for services such as pharmacy first blood pressure checks and contraception.
But we must be honest about the scale of the challenge. This additional funding comes after years of financial pressure. While analysis has identified a funding gap of more than £2 billion across community pharmacies, rising energy, staffing and medicines costs are placing further strain on businesses that are already operating on tight margins. And there is another pressure that patients increasingly experience directly medicine shortages. Pharmacists tell me that they can spend hours every day simply trying to source medicines that have been asked to dispense.
That is time which could be spent with patients. And it also means that the pressure does not stop at the pharmacy door. In my constituency, I've heard from patients whose pharmacists have had to reduce opening hours and staffing because of financial pressures. When a pharmacy closes earlier, a prescription issued later in the day can potentially be delayed until the following day. For someone waiting for an essential medicine, that can be deeply distressing.
And when a pharmacy is struggling to fulfill prescriptions, the consequences ripple through the entire health service. A patient who cannot get their medication may return to their GP. A GP surgery then has another appointment to deal with, and a patient whose condition worsens may ultimately require hospital treatment, and another pharmacy, already under pressure may have to pick up the pieces when a patient desperately seeks an alternative. That is why I ask the minister to look at community pharmacies not as an optional extra, but as a vital piece of the system.
We can see the difference locally through pharmacy first, community pharmacies in my area have reportedly saved almost 2000 GP appointments, 1937 appointments to be precise. That is 1937 occasions on which people have been able to receive appropriate care closer to home, while freeing up GP capacity for those who need it most. That is the model we should be expanding, but we cannot ask pharmacies to keep doing more with less.
The Liberal Democrats are calling for a new long term and sustainable funding model for community pharmacies, and I would also like to press the minister in her remarks as to whether she will seek to change the provision the the health Bill when it goes to the Lords in respect of my hon. Friend the member for West. Dorset's amendments about rescuing pharmacies when they've gone bust. That is something the Liberal Democrats also supported.
We want to see further investment directed towards smaller towns and rural areas, as other honourable members have set out, including parts of Mid Sussex where access can be particularly difficult. We want to see pharmacy first expanded, giving patients more accessible, routine services and freeing up GPS to concentrate on more complex cases. We want an exemption for pharmacies from the National Insurance contribution increase, so that funds are being spent on patients and vital medications, and we also need to tackle the practical problem of medicine shortages.
Pharmacists need greater flexibility to substitute medicines where clinically appropriate, rather than spending hours trying to source a particular product that may simply not be available.
15:28
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
That may simply not be available. The message I heard in Haywards Heath was very clear. Pharmacists want to help. They want to provide more services. They want to support their patients and take pressure off GPS and hospitals. But they need a system that recognises the value of what they do. Community pharmacists pharmacies are often the first place someone turns when they need healthcare advice. They are local, accessible and trusted.
When they are properly funded and properly supported, they can keep people healthier for longer. Help vulnerable residents remain independent in their own homes and take pressure off the rest of the NHS. The government has made a start with its recent funding settlement. I welcome that. But a first step is not enough. I urge the minister to listen to the pharmacist I have spoken to in Mid-sussex and across the country, and to put in place a genuinely long term plan for community pharmacy.
Our local pharmacies have been there for our communities. Now we need to make sure the government is there for them. Thank you.
When they are properly funded and properly supported, they can keep people healthier for longer. Help vulnerable residents remain independent in their own homes and take pressure off the rest of the NHS. The government has made a start with its recent funding settlement. I welcome that. But a first step is not enough. I urge the minister to listen to the pharmacist I have spoken to in Mid-sussex and across the country, and to put in place a genuinely long term plan for community pharmacy.
Our local pharmacies have been there for our communities. Now we need to make sure the government is there for them. Thank you.
15:29
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
Thank you very much, Mr. Betts. And it's a privilege to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon. I want to welcome and congratulate the right hon. Lady, the Minister to her new role. May I also begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the member for Leicester East on securing this most important debate. She has spoken very powerfully, I think, about the pressures facing community pharmacies, and I want to build on that by discussing both what's going on in my constituency of Farnham and Bordon, but also nationally.
Now in Farnham and Bordon. We have access to 15 community pharmacies collectively dispensing around 142,000 prescriptions every month and delivering around 6500 flu vaccinations. The government's own ten year plan wants more health care delivered in the community, and I think we all support that. But at the same time, it appears to be making it harder for those very pharmacies to deliver the care that they need and to remain sustainable. The reality is that community pharmacies are being asked to do more whilst facing rising costs.
We've seen higher national Insurance contributions, increases in the national minimum wage, rising business rates and persistent inflationary pressures. And at the same time, pharmacies are dealing with medicine shortages, higher procurement costs and disruption to international supply chain. And that financial picture is impossible to ignore. Funding for community pharmacies in 2526 was actually £800 million less in real terms than it was in 20 1516. And in the last year alone, the number of NHS prescribed items dispensed and service volumes increased by 2.3% and 17%, respectively.
But as the honourable member for North Somerset has already highlighted, and it was echoed by a number of members around the chamber today, the government's own independent economic analysis in March of last year identified a funding gap of £2 billion a year, and trade bodies which have spoken to me have identified a structural funding problem. Now we on this side of the House, of course, welcome additional funding. But you don't make pharmacy sustainable by giving with one hand and taking with the other.
We need to ensure the long term viability of community pharmacy. And I would say the government's approach, I have to say, is I'm very sceptical that it will achieve that. Now I want to turn to pharmacy first, which I think is an excellent example of what can be achieved when we make better use of the skills and expertise within our within our NHS and the right hon. Member for North East. Sorry for Richmond and Northallerton is absolutely right to be proud of his record and his government's record on this matter, created and implemented by the last government.
It shows what NHS reform should look like. The right professional with the right responsibility, delivering the right care in the right place and it should be a game changer. And I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for its introduction. Pharmacy first recognises that patients with seven common conditions can be safely assessed and treated by qualified pharmacists, without always requiring a GP appointment. However, the scheme is currently limited and not as greatly expanded as it is in Scotland, where you can cover up to 30 conditions.
And I would like to see the government move rapidly to expanding pharmacy first. We should be ambitious about the skills and clinical expertise of our pharmacists. Yes, I will briefly give way.
Now in Farnham and Bordon. We have access to 15 community pharmacies collectively dispensing around 142,000 prescriptions every month and delivering around 6500 flu vaccinations. The government's own ten year plan wants more health care delivered in the community, and I think we all support that. But at the same time, it appears to be making it harder for those very pharmacies to deliver the care that they need and to remain sustainable. The reality is that community pharmacies are being asked to do more whilst facing rising costs.
We've seen higher national Insurance contributions, increases in the national minimum wage, rising business rates and persistent inflationary pressures. And at the same time, pharmacies are dealing with medicine shortages, higher procurement costs and disruption to international supply chain. And that financial picture is impossible to ignore. Funding for community pharmacies in 2526 was actually £800 million less in real terms than it was in 20 1516. And in the last year alone, the number of NHS prescribed items dispensed and service volumes increased by 2.3% and 17%, respectively.
But as the honourable member for North Somerset has already highlighted, and it was echoed by a number of members around the chamber today, the government's own independent economic analysis in March of last year identified a funding gap of £2 billion a year, and trade bodies which have spoken to me have identified a structural funding problem. Now we on this side of the House, of course, welcome additional funding. But you don't make pharmacy sustainable by giving with one hand and taking with the other.
We need to ensure the long term viability of community pharmacy. And I would say the government's approach, I have to say, is I'm very sceptical that it will achieve that. Now I want to turn to pharmacy first, which I think is an excellent example of what can be achieved when we make better use of the skills and expertise within our within our NHS and the right hon. Member for North East. Sorry for Richmond and Northallerton is absolutely right to be proud of his record and his government's record on this matter, created and implemented by the last government.
It shows what NHS reform should look like. The right professional with the right responsibility, delivering the right care in the right place and it should be a game changer. And I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for its introduction. Pharmacy first recognises that patients with seven common conditions can be safely assessed and treated by qualified pharmacists, without always requiring a GP appointment. However, the scheme is currently limited and not as greatly expanded as it is in Scotland, where you can cover up to 30 conditions.
And I would like to see the government move rapidly to expanding pharmacy first. We should be ambitious about the skills and clinical expertise of our pharmacists. Yes, I will briefly give way.
15:32
15:32
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
I entirely agree with the honourable gentleman. I think that we can use pharmacists and pharmacies in a much more creative, and I would say in a way that in no way puts patient safety at risk and in fact, actually allows patients more choice and frees up GPS and other health professionals to do other parts of the job. So I think he is right. But Community Pharmacy England's pharmacy pressures survey in 2026 makes the challenge. The scale of the challenge clear.
Drawing on responses of nearly 4000 pharmacy owners and staff members, it found that 75% of pharmacies are currently losing money, while only 14% report being profitable. There's little value in providing additional funding for services without recognising that the wider funding cost and workforce pressures are facing the sector. 30% of pharmacies have reduced their opening hours 76 report and impact on patient care, including longer waits and delays in accessing medicine. And this brings me briefly to the issue of business rates and the wider cumulative costs facing pharmacies.
A pharmacy may occupy a storefront on a high street, but it's not simply another retailer. It's part of the National Health Service. It's an essential provision in our community. And as the honourable member for Strangford outlined, it's part of our national resilience, and the government wants to take on pharmacies to take on more responsibility. But pharmacies are facing rising costs caused by this government. Pharmacies need to be properly considered within the system and not treated simply as another high street retailer.
And that's the same issue when we come to national insurance increases and indeed the National Living Wage. These are cumulative increases that are having a real impact. Unlike a high street retailer, and pharmacy has contractual obligations to the NHS and moral responsibility to its patients. So it can't just increase prices or stop providing a service like other businesses could do. And as my right hon. As my hon. Friend the member for South West Hearts rightly put it, the government has to recognise the cumulative impact of these terrible decisions when it's considering policy in the future.
I will very briefly.
Drawing on responses of nearly 4000 pharmacy owners and staff members, it found that 75% of pharmacies are currently losing money, while only 14% report being profitable. There's little value in providing additional funding for services without recognising that the wider funding cost and workforce pressures are facing the sector. 30% of pharmacies have reduced their opening hours 76 report and impact on patient care, including longer waits and delays in accessing medicine. And this brings me briefly to the issue of business rates and the wider cumulative costs facing pharmacies.
A pharmacy may occupy a storefront on a high street, but it's not simply another retailer. It's part of the National Health Service. It's an essential provision in our community. And as the honourable member for Strangford outlined, it's part of our national resilience, and the government wants to take on pharmacies to take on more responsibility. But pharmacies are facing rising costs caused by this government. Pharmacies need to be properly considered within the system and not treated simply as another high street retailer.
And that's the same issue when we come to national insurance increases and indeed the National Living Wage. These are cumulative increases that are having a real impact. Unlike a high street retailer, and pharmacy has contractual obligations to the NHS and moral responsibility to its patients. So it can't just increase prices or stop providing a service like other businesses could do. And as my right hon. As my hon. Friend the member for South West Hearts rightly put it, the government has to recognise the cumulative impact of these terrible decisions when it's considering policy in the future.
I will very briefly.
15:35
Speaker 15
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Speaker 15
The honourable gentleman is entirely right, and I think that goes to the heart of this. Yes. Pharmacies are businesses. Yes. They have to make a profit. Yes. They have to pay their staff and and make sure that they can feed their own families. But they're also public servants. They're also people who have decided to work in our National Health Service to provide for our patients. And the government should recognise that.
Now, the honourable gentleman mentioned independent prescribing, so I will touch on that briefly. I think if it's properly supported, it will give patients access to quicker access to treatment, but it does bring greater clinical responsibility and greater governance requirements and greater pressure on the pharmacist time, given the limited capacity that we've already talked about. So I do want to ask the minister three questions on independent prescribing. First of all, does she believe the sector is ready? Does it have the workforce and the capacity to do this, and what additional funding and support will be provided? And we also need clarity on the timetable for it, because pharmacies have trained to prescribe to to prescribe, and they need it should be able to use that skill.
And that brings me on to the pharmacy workforce, because none of these reforms, whether it be independent prescribing or pharmacy first or any other idea, none of these reforms will work without a sufficiently large and properly supported workforce. We are hearing from other honourable members and Right Honourable members that about recruitment and retention pressures, including concerns about the number of full time equivalent pharmacists, and at the same time, the demands placed on existing staff are increasing. We can't continue to add responsibilities to community pharmacy without considering whether there are enough people to deliver them safely and effectively.
Now, the previous conservative government's NHS long term workforce plan included, I think, an ambition to increase pharmacists training places by 29%, taking them to around 4300 by 2829. This clearly will not be met under this government, and we're still waiting for the long promised NHS workforce plan, despite me asking the then Secretary of State in July when it was coming out. Still no answer. Finally, I'm going to move on to Medicines Supply briefly. Pharmacies are facing global supply chain disruption and rising medicine costs, with repeated price concessions adding further pressures.
They can't absorb these pressures indefinitely. So what is the government doing to mitigate the impact of geopolitical disruption on the medicine supply and prices? And what assessment has the department made of the financial burden that this is placing on community pharmacists, pharmacies? These pressures are being felt by pharmacists and pharmacies across my constituency, including Vaughan James and Valleys and Farnham, the Chase and Hedley pharmacies, and Day-Lewis in Haslemere alongside Grayshott Pharmacy Pharmacy, all of whom have contacted me about the issues that I've raised.
So, Mr. Betts, in conclusion, Community Pharmacy has a crucial role to play in the future of our NHS. We all want to see care delivered closer to people's homes. Pharmacy first has shown what can happen when we give pharmacists greater responsibility and trust them to use their expertise, but ambition needs to be matched by capacity. The government can't say that community pharmacies are central to the future of neighbourhood healthcare, while making it harder for those pharmacies to remain financially sustainable.
So I ask the government, and I urge them to recognise that the cumulative impacts of their policies are having on businesses. Look again at the treatment of business rates for community pharmacies. Ensure independent prescribing is properly supported, protect the supply of medicines and provide clarity on when the NHS workforce Plan will be published. The. The fact is, we cannot ask pharmacies to do more, take on more responsibility and deliver more NHS care, whilst simultaneously making it harder for them to survive.
The Conservative Party believed that community pharmacy is absolutely central to the future of the NHS. If the government agrees, it must make sure that pharmacies have a future to.
Now, the honourable gentleman mentioned independent prescribing, so I will touch on that briefly. I think if it's properly supported, it will give patients access to quicker access to treatment, but it does bring greater clinical responsibility and greater governance requirements and greater pressure on the pharmacist time, given the limited capacity that we've already talked about. So I do want to ask the minister three questions on independent prescribing. First of all, does she believe the sector is ready? Does it have the workforce and the capacity to do this, and what additional funding and support will be provided? And we also need clarity on the timetable for it, because pharmacies have trained to prescribe to to prescribe, and they need it should be able to use that skill.
And that brings me on to the pharmacy workforce, because none of these reforms, whether it be independent prescribing or pharmacy first or any other idea, none of these reforms will work without a sufficiently large and properly supported workforce. We are hearing from other honourable members and Right Honourable members that about recruitment and retention pressures, including concerns about the number of full time equivalent pharmacists, and at the same time, the demands placed on existing staff are increasing. We can't continue to add responsibilities to community pharmacy without considering whether there are enough people to deliver them safely and effectively.
Now, the previous conservative government's NHS long term workforce plan included, I think, an ambition to increase pharmacists training places by 29%, taking them to around 4300 by 2829. This clearly will not be met under this government, and we're still waiting for the long promised NHS workforce plan, despite me asking the then Secretary of State in July when it was coming out. Still no answer. Finally, I'm going to move on to Medicines Supply briefly. Pharmacies are facing global supply chain disruption and rising medicine costs, with repeated price concessions adding further pressures.
They can't absorb these pressures indefinitely. So what is the government doing to mitigate the impact of geopolitical disruption on the medicine supply and prices? And what assessment has the department made of the financial burden that this is placing on community pharmacists, pharmacies? These pressures are being felt by pharmacists and pharmacies across my constituency, including Vaughan James and Valleys and Farnham, the Chase and Hedley pharmacies, and Day-Lewis in Haslemere alongside Grayshott Pharmacy Pharmacy, all of whom have contacted me about the issues that I've raised.
So, Mr. Betts, in conclusion, Community Pharmacy has a crucial role to play in the future of our NHS. We all want to see care delivered closer to people's homes. Pharmacy first has shown what can happen when we give pharmacists greater responsibility and trust them to use their expertise, but ambition needs to be matched by capacity. The government can't say that community pharmacies are central to the future of neighbourhood healthcare, while making it harder for those pharmacies to remain financially sustainable.
So I ask the government, and I urge them to recognise that the cumulative impacts of their policies are having on businesses. Look again at the treatment of business rates for community pharmacies. Ensure independent prescribing is properly supported, protect the supply of medicines and provide clarity on when the NHS workforce Plan will be published. The. The fact is, we cannot ask pharmacies to do more, take on more responsibility and deliver more NHS care, whilst simultaneously making it harder for them to survive.
The Conservative Party believed that community pharmacy is absolutely central to the future of the NHS. If the government agrees, it must make sure that pharmacies have a future to.
15:39
15:39
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
Thank you, Mr. Betts, and as ever, it's a pleasure to serve under you this afternoon. So can I start by congratulating the honourable member for Leicester East for securing this important debate and her opening statement, setting out, I thought very thoroughly the current situation with pharmacies and the challenges that they face. I think we can all agree today that community pharmacies are at the heart of our NHS and of their local communities.
We absolutely recognise the important role that pharmacies play in delivering health services in neighborhoods across the country, and the opportunity for this role to keep growing. We also recognise that many community pharmacies are facing financial pressures and that ensuring financial sustainability, community for community pharmacies is essential to improve patients access to medicines and services. And that is why, since coming into office, this government has delivered successive uplifts to pharmacy funding following years of cuts or flat funding, and invested in pharmacies to roll out NHS prescribing and to improve patient access to care in their communities.
But of course, I also want to say this, that none of this would be possible without the dedication and professionalism of pharmacy teams supporting patients across the country. And like other honourable members over the years, I have visited many pharmacies in my constituency to listen to what they have to say, as well as meeting with my local community pharmacy, Humber, and their chief executive, Paul McGorry. I want to just reference the contributions that we have had this afternoon.
I think they've been excellent and very well informed, starting with my honourable friend for North Somerset, the chair of the Appg on pharmacy and a community pharmacist, and he talked about his vision by 2040 of this integration of primary care and how important pharmacy is in that. And I very much look forward to discussing that with him outside of this debate this afternoon. And then we heard from the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton, and I think his mum would be very proud that he is here this afternoon banging the drum for pharmacy.
He also talked about pharmacists in his rural constituency, and that, again, was a common theme around the room this afternoon about the important role that pharmacists play in rural areas. We heard from the honourable member for Newbury, who the vice chair of the Appg, and he gave a very thoughtful speech, again outlining the challenges facing pharmacy at the moment, and then the honourable member for West Dorset. And he referenced the closure of the Djehuty stores and highlighted the potential weaknesses in the current regulatory frameworks around closures.
And I want to say to the honourable gentleman, this is why the Department has been reviewing whether changes are needed to strengthen oversight of pharmacy businesses. We are actively considering a range of options, including whether legislative changes are required, and my officials have been working closely with the General Pharmaceutical Council, NHS England and others to identify any gaps in the current framework. And of course, I'm very happy to meet the honourable gentleman as well to discuss that further.
We, of course, heard from the honourable member for Strangford and he talked about pharmacies in Northern Ireland and the effect on pharmacists and their staff of the stress that they were under, and also made, of course, the economic case for why the use of pharmacies makes sense. The honourable member for South West Hertfordshire, I was very impressed that he had done work experience in a pharmacy and. But I was a little bit concerned that he seems to have forgotten about all the cuts that occurred under the previous conservative government to pharmacy, and I think it's fair to say that that under the conservative government they made pharmacy payments practically a fixed contract, which in essence meant that with inflation, there were cuts year on year to pharmacy funding.
The honourable lady who speaks for the Liberal Democrats, spoke about the role of pharmacy and the particular role that they play during Covid. And I think we all want to remember how important pharmacy staff and pharmacists were during that period. And I can absolutely assure her that I have not forgotten that. And I don't think the government has either. And then, in conclusion, the shadow health spokesman, who again, I seem, I think seems to be suffering from amnesia.
It seems to be a common problem on that side of the chamber at times about funding and the funding situation that happened under the conservative government. Oh, yes, absolutely. We're in charge now. Absolutely. And I'm going to come on and set out what we are doing about pharmacy. But I just thought it was useful just to reflect on the comments and contributions. So first of all, I do want to address the issue of funding. As I said at the outset, the government recognises the challenges facing community pharmacies following years of underfunding and the difficult fiscal environment.
That is why last year we took the necessary decisions to give the sector a record 19% funding uplift across 24, 25 and 2526. And I want to stress this was the largest uplift in the NHS at that time. However, we know that many pharmacies continue to face financial pressures, which is why we have followed last year's settlement with a further significant uplift of 10% for 2627, worth an additional £340 million for the sector.
This funding will help to ensure that patients can continue to access medicines and important clinical support from community pharmacists. The uplift will also support the national roll out of NHS pharmacist prescribing from 2026. These services will enable pharmacists to prescribe within the existing Pharmacy First and Contraception Service pathways and for up to five new pathways. This will deliver increased access to NHS care, relieve pressures on other parts of the NHS and strengthen support in communities across England.
Delivering on the commitment made in our manifesto. This year's uplift is almost three times the rate of growth in the overall NHS budget, and demonstrates the priority this government places on community pharmacy. But I do not pretend that the challenges will disappear overnight. We know that many pharmacies continue to face financial pressures, but these settlements represent, I believe, a clear change in direction and provide the foundations for longer term reform.
And I also just want to let the honourable members know that the number of pharmacies. I know that the the issue of closures of pharmacies was raised by a number of honourable members, the number of pharmacies that are closing in recent data. There were 19 net closures in 2526, which compared with 112 in 2425. So there is some some progress being made there, but I totally recognise there is a lot more to do. I want now to move on to the issue of sustainability and reform.
The long term sustainability of community pharmacy depends on making better use of pharmacist clinical skills, reducing unnecessary administrative burdens and enabling pharmacists to deliver more care close to people's homes. We will deliver this through the three shifts set out in our ten year health plan sickness to prevention, analog to digital and hospital to community. If I start with sickness to prevention, let me begin with one clear example of how community pharmacy can support the shift from sickness to prevention.
As a new minister, I have been struck already by the vital role that community pharmacists play in bringing vaccination services closer to the communities they serve. The NHS vaccination strategy and our ten year health plan set out a clear ambition to increase vaccine uptake through primary care. This means complementing the core offer from general practice with accessible vaccination services in settings including maternity and sexual health services, schools, health visiting teams and, crucially, community pharmacy.
So during the 2526 flu programme, community pharmacists vaccinated approximately 4.7 million people, around 600,000 more than in the previous year. This demonstrates the growing contribution that pharmacists are able to make to prevention . As a central part of the NHS commissioned vaccine programme. Turning to analog to digital, this is the shift that's really, I think, very important. I'm well aware that there are often outdated technologies which prevent skilled staff across the health and care sector, including pharmacy teams, from working to their full potential and stifling innovation and efficiencies.
Of course, digital transformation is not just about technology for its own sake. It's about giving pharmacists the tools they need to spend less time on admin and more time on caring for patients and giving patients more control over their care and support that they receive. So last year, there was a new prescription tracking service was introduced on the NHS app across across nearly 1500 community pharmacies in England. It allows patients to receive real time updates and check when their prescriptions are ready.
This year, we're going to go further by strengthening digital links between pharmacies and general practice as we build neighbourhood health teams in every community. Digital technology also has an important role to play in strengthening medicine supply chains. Again, an issue that was raised today. We also want prescribers to have better information about medicine shortages, and at present, GPS cannot routinely see live national shortage information when prescribing, so we intend to make that information available in real time, helping GPS prescribe or suitable alternatives where necessary, saving time for patients and neighbourhood health teams.
This means fewer patients going from pharmacy to pharmacy in search of medicines. Thirdly, I just wanted to turn from the shift from hospital to community. If we are serious about shifting care out of hospitals and into communities, then community pharmacies must be obviously part of the answer. They're trusted, they're accessible, they're highly valuable to the communities that they serve, and they have enormous potential. And we've talked I'm very conscious of time, and I might be getting a dirty look from the okay, I will take you then.
We absolutely recognise the important role that pharmacies play in delivering health services in neighborhoods across the country, and the opportunity for this role to keep growing. We also recognise that many community pharmacies are facing financial pressures and that ensuring financial sustainability, community for community pharmacies is essential to improve patients access to medicines and services. And that is why, since coming into office, this government has delivered successive uplifts to pharmacy funding following years of cuts or flat funding, and invested in pharmacies to roll out NHS prescribing and to improve patient access to care in their communities.
But of course, I also want to say this, that none of this would be possible without the dedication and professionalism of pharmacy teams supporting patients across the country. And like other honourable members over the years, I have visited many pharmacies in my constituency to listen to what they have to say, as well as meeting with my local community pharmacy, Humber, and their chief executive, Paul McGorry. I want to just reference the contributions that we have had this afternoon.
I think they've been excellent and very well informed, starting with my honourable friend for North Somerset, the chair of the Appg on pharmacy and a community pharmacist, and he talked about his vision by 2040 of this integration of primary care and how important pharmacy is in that. And I very much look forward to discussing that with him outside of this debate this afternoon. And then we heard from the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton, and I think his mum would be very proud that he is here this afternoon banging the drum for pharmacy.
He also talked about pharmacists in his rural constituency, and that, again, was a common theme around the room this afternoon about the important role that pharmacists play in rural areas. We heard from the honourable member for Newbury, who the vice chair of the Appg, and he gave a very thoughtful speech, again outlining the challenges facing pharmacy at the moment, and then the honourable member for West Dorset. And he referenced the closure of the Djehuty stores and highlighted the potential weaknesses in the current regulatory frameworks around closures.
And I want to say to the honourable gentleman, this is why the Department has been reviewing whether changes are needed to strengthen oversight of pharmacy businesses. We are actively considering a range of options, including whether legislative changes are required, and my officials have been working closely with the General Pharmaceutical Council, NHS England and others to identify any gaps in the current framework. And of course, I'm very happy to meet the honourable gentleman as well to discuss that further.
We, of course, heard from the honourable member for Strangford and he talked about pharmacies in Northern Ireland and the effect on pharmacists and their staff of the stress that they were under, and also made, of course, the economic case for why the use of pharmacies makes sense. The honourable member for South West Hertfordshire, I was very impressed that he had done work experience in a pharmacy and. But I was a little bit concerned that he seems to have forgotten about all the cuts that occurred under the previous conservative government to pharmacy, and I think it's fair to say that that under the conservative government they made pharmacy payments practically a fixed contract, which in essence meant that with inflation, there were cuts year on year to pharmacy funding.
The honourable lady who speaks for the Liberal Democrats, spoke about the role of pharmacy and the particular role that they play during Covid. And I think we all want to remember how important pharmacy staff and pharmacists were during that period. And I can absolutely assure her that I have not forgotten that. And I don't think the government has either. And then, in conclusion, the shadow health spokesman, who again, I seem, I think seems to be suffering from amnesia.
It seems to be a common problem on that side of the chamber at times about funding and the funding situation that happened under the conservative government. Oh, yes, absolutely. We're in charge now. Absolutely. And I'm going to come on and set out what we are doing about pharmacy. But I just thought it was useful just to reflect on the comments and contributions. So first of all, I do want to address the issue of funding. As I said at the outset, the government recognises the challenges facing community pharmacies following years of underfunding and the difficult fiscal environment.
That is why last year we took the necessary decisions to give the sector a record 19% funding uplift across 24, 25 and 2526. And I want to stress this was the largest uplift in the NHS at that time. However, we know that many pharmacies continue to face financial pressures, which is why we have followed last year's settlement with a further significant uplift of 10% for 2627, worth an additional £340 million for the sector.
This funding will help to ensure that patients can continue to access medicines and important clinical support from community pharmacists. The uplift will also support the national roll out of NHS pharmacist prescribing from 2026. These services will enable pharmacists to prescribe within the existing Pharmacy First and Contraception Service pathways and for up to five new pathways. This will deliver increased access to NHS care, relieve pressures on other parts of the NHS and strengthen support in communities across England.
Delivering on the commitment made in our manifesto. This year's uplift is almost three times the rate of growth in the overall NHS budget, and demonstrates the priority this government places on community pharmacy. But I do not pretend that the challenges will disappear overnight. We know that many pharmacies continue to face financial pressures, but these settlements represent, I believe, a clear change in direction and provide the foundations for longer term reform.
And I also just want to let the honourable members know that the number of pharmacies. I know that the the issue of closures of pharmacies was raised by a number of honourable members, the number of pharmacies that are closing in recent data. There were 19 net closures in 2526, which compared with 112 in 2425. So there is some some progress being made there, but I totally recognise there is a lot more to do. I want now to move on to the issue of sustainability and reform.
The long term sustainability of community pharmacy depends on making better use of pharmacist clinical skills, reducing unnecessary administrative burdens and enabling pharmacists to deliver more care close to people's homes. We will deliver this through the three shifts set out in our ten year health plan sickness to prevention, analog to digital and hospital to community. If I start with sickness to prevention, let me begin with one clear example of how community pharmacy can support the shift from sickness to prevention.
As a new minister, I have been struck already by the vital role that community pharmacists play in bringing vaccination services closer to the communities they serve. The NHS vaccination strategy and our ten year health plan set out a clear ambition to increase vaccine uptake through primary care. This means complementing the core offer from general practice with accessible vaccination services in settings including maternity and sexual health services, schools, health visiting teams and, crucially, community pharmacy.
So during the 2526 flu programme, community pharmacists vaccinated approximately 4.7 million people, around 600,000 more than in the previous year. This demonstrates the growing contribution that pharmacists are able to make to prevention . As a central part of the NHS commissioned vaccine programme. Turning to analog to digital, this is the shift that's really, I think, very important. I'm well aware that there are often outdated technologies which prevent skilled staff across the health and care sector, including pharmacy teams, from working to their full potential and stifling innovation and efficiencies.
Of course, digital transformation is not just about technology for its own sake. It's about giving pharmacists the tools they need to spend less time on admin and more time on caring for patients and giving patients more control over their care and support that they receive. So last year, there was a new prescription tracking service was introduced on the NHS app across across nearly 1500 community pharmacies in England. It allows patients to receive real time updates and check when their prescriptions are ready.
This year, we're going to go further by strengthening digital links between pharmacies and general practice as we build neighbourhood health teams in every community. Digital technology also has an important role to play in strengthening medicine supply chains. Again, an issue that was raised today. We also want prescribers to have better information about medicine shortages, and at present, GPS cannot routinely see live national shortage information when prescribing, so we intend to make that information available in real time, helping GPS prescribe or suitable alternatives where necessary, saving time for patients and neighbourhood health teams.
This means fewer patients going from pharmacy to pharmacy in search of medicines. Thirdly, I just wanted to turn from the shift from hospital to community. If we are serious about shifting care out of hospitals and into communities, then community pharmacies must be obviously part of the answer. They're trusted, they're accessible, they're highly valuable to the communities that they serve, and they have enormous potential. And we've talked I'm very conscious of time, and I might be getting a dirty look from the okay, I will take you then.
15:50
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
I'm glad. I'm glad you haven't. I'm glad he hasn't gave you a dirty look. Just just on the point of moving from hospital to community. When I've been to visit pharmacists, they often say actually the services they provide at the moment, people don't always know about. And residents tell me that too. So I just wondered if she agrees that every one of us has a part to play in just promoting and raising awareness of the great services that they already provide, as well as those of those of the future.
15:51
15:51
15:51
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
Going to come on just to say a few words about pharmacy first, and what I wanted to say was it's been recognised around the chamber this afternoon, how important that is. Recent data is showing a growing public awareness of the service, with the proportion of people who know pharmacies can treat pharmacy first conditions increasing from 71% to 79%. But I think there's more we can do. So I absolutely acknowledge the point that honourable and right honourable members have made, and also Pharmacy First has demonstrated what pharmacists can achieve when empowered to deliver more care.
The introduction of NHS pharmacists prescribing will take that a significant step. Further evidence from the Independent Prescribing Pathfinder programme is really encouraging. Across 200 sites, pharmacists delivered more than 34,000 consultations. Around 60% resulted in a prescribing decision. 97% were completed without a referral to a GP. And that demonstrates the real world potential of pharmacists prescribing to improve access to care and relieve pressures. The 2627 Community Pharmacy contractual framework builds on these lessons as NHS pharmacists prescribing is rolled out nationally, as I've said from the autumn of this year, and that delivers on our pledges within the ten year plan, we want to unlock the full potential of community pharmacy.
It's not just about pharmacists. We're also enabling pharmacy technicians to take greater responsibility within dispensing processes, including allowing checked and bagged medicines to be handed out when the pharmacist is not present. So community pharmacists are a vital part of the NHS and of the communities they serve. As we. Yes, happy to.
The introduction of NHS pharmacists prescribing will take that a significant step. Further evidence from the Independent Prescribing Pathfinder programme is really encouraging. Across 200 sites, pharmacists delivered more than 34,000 consultations. Around 60% resulted in a prescribing decision. 97% were completed without a referral to a GP. And that demonstrates the real world potential of pharmacists prescribing to improve access to care and relieve pressures. The 2627 Community Pharmacy contractual framework builds on these lessons as NHS pharmacists prescribing is rolled out nationally, as I've said from the autumn of this year, and that delivers on our pledges within the ten year plan, we want to unlock the full potential of community pharmacy.
It's not just about pharmacists. We're also enabling pharmacy technicians to take greater responsibility within dispensing processes, including allowing checked and bagged medicines to be handed out when the pharmacist is not present. So community pharmacists are a vital part of the NHS and of the communities they serve. As we. Yes, happy to.
15:52
Speaker 12
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Speaker 12
Thank the Minister for her generosity and I would also like to thank her for willing to take a meeting with myself and the honourable member for North Somerset to discuss some of the issues raised today. She mentioned that officials were looking at legislation if legislation was necessary. I wonder also whether or not she would ask officials to look at whether or not the amendments I tabled to the health bill would actually deliver the powers that she needs, and if so, if the government would support them in the Lords.
15:53
15:53
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
To have a look at the amendments that were tabled by the honourable gentleman. So I'm very happy to do that. I'm very happy to to also meet with him and my honourable friend as well. I can't promise anything else, but I'm happy to have a look. So just to conclude, community pharmacists already dispense hundreds of millions of prescriptions every year. But their role is growing, preventing illness, treating common conditions, prescribing where appropriate, and improving access to care.
Our investment, our reforms and our ten year health plan all point in the same direction. A stronger, sustainable community pharmacy sector. And this government is committed to working with the sector to deliver that vision. Thank you.
Our investment, our reforms and our ten year health plan all point in the same direction. A stronger, sustainable community pharmacy sector. And this government is committed to working with the sector to deliver that vision. Thank you.
15:54
15:54
15:54
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Thank you, Mr.. For your chairmanship of today's debate. I would also like to express my sincere thanks to colleagues from across the House who have contributed today. It is a reflection on how valued our local pharmacies are in our communities, throughout our country, and also highlights just how important it is that we commit to improving government support for these invaluable frontline small businesses. I want to firstly thank my friend, the Right Honourable member for Richmond and Northallerton for his contribution.
I know that he has been a long standing advocate for pharmacies and has first hand witnessed the value that high street pharmacies bring to our communities and their potential to improve our primary care provisions, and also his commitment to serving the community, which, as we heard, started from a very young age. I am also grateful to the member for North Somerset for bringing his experience to this debate and for raising the important issue of integration across all of our primary care provision, and thank him alongside the member of Newbury for all of their hard work on the Appg.
I also my honourable friend, the member of South West Hertfordshire, for his continued efforts and campaigning for community pharmacies. The breadth and range of these contributions we have heard, reflects just how deeply this issue resonates in every constituency throughout the country. I am grateful to the Minister for her detailed response and for taking the time to address the concerns raised. These initial measures, welcome as they are, must be the starting point of further structural reform.
Our local high street pharmacies are independent businesses delivering essential public care right on the front line. But as we have heard throughout this debate, they cannot continue to absorb squeezed margins, rising wage bills and uncompensated business rate liabilities. While their income remains tightly capped by fixed government tariffs. To ensure our primary care network remains resilient, I urge the minister and her team to take back the four core priorities raised today reform the medicine reimbursement model and concessionary pricing mechanisms.
Update the community pharmacy contractual framework. Collaborate with Treasury colleagues to address the rising overheads and ensure the NHS long term workforce plan safeguards high street community pharmacy capacity. Community pharmacies keep our constituents well. They relieve acute pressures on our GP surgeries and A&E departments, and bring vital commercial life to our local high streets across Leicester East and the entire nation. They are one of the most cost effective assets in our primary care system, but they require a stable economic foundation to survive.
I urge the government to give our independent local pharmacies the financial certainty, fair treatment and long term backing they so urgently need and deserve. Thank you.
I know that he has been a long standing advocate for pharmacies and has first hand witnessed the value that high street pharmacies bring to our communities and their potential to improve our primary care provisions, and also his commitment to serving the community, which, as we heard, started from a very young age. I am also grateful to the member for North Somerset for bringing his experience to this debate and for raising the important issue of integration across all of our primary care provision, and thank him alongside the member of Newbury for all of their hard work on the Appg.
I also my honourable friend, the member of South West Hertfordshire, for his continued efforts and campaigning for community pharmacies. The breadth and range of these contributions we have heard, reflects just how deeply this issue resonates in every constituency throughout the country. I am grateful to the Minister for her detailed response and for taking the time to address the concerns raised. These initial measures, welcome as they are, must be the starting point of further structural reform.
Our local high street pharmacies are independent businesses delivering essential public care right on the front line. But as we have heard throughout this debate, they cannot continue to absorb squeezed margins, rising wage bills and uncompensated business rate liabilities. While their income remains tightly capped by fixed government tariffs. To ensure our primary care network remains resilient, I urge the minister and her team to take back the four core priorities raised today reform the medicine reimbursement model and concessionary pricing mechanisms.
Update the community pharmacy contractual framework. Collaborate with Treasury colleagues to address the rising overheads and ensure the NHS long term workforce plan safeguards high street community pharmacy capacity. Community pharmacies keep our constituents well. They relieve acute pressures on our GP surgeries and A&E departments, and bring vital commercial life to our local high streets across Leicester East and the entire nation. They are one of the most cost effective assets in our primary care system, but they require a stable economic foundation to survive.
I urge the government to give our independent local pharmacies the financial certainty, fair treatment and long term backing they so urgently need and deserve. Thank you.
15:57
15:57
15:59
15:59
Speaker 17
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Speaker 17
Thank you, Mr. Betts. It's an honour to serve under you. And can I warmly welcome the Minister to her place for what is, I believe, her first Westminster Hall debate. Mr. chair, many colleagues have taken their seats in this place after many years of serving their communities as local councillors or working in political roles. But before my election I was a teacher and an academic, and standing for Parliament was almost the first time I'd run for anything.
In fact, my only prior experience was running to be a member of Youth Parliament when I was about 14. I'm sorry to say I came in third. Although the confidence I gained just from putting myself forward stayed with me and I have no doubt helped me to reach this place. I'd be delighted.
In fact, my only prior experience was running to be a member of Youth Parliament when I was about 14. I'm sorry to say I came in third. Although the confidence I gained just from putting myself forward stayed with me and I have no doubt helped me to reach this place. I'd be delighted.
16:00
Speaker 13
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Speaker 13
Came third time, but I came first at the last election. So well done. And the National Youth Agency does make difficult work in delivering the programme needs. Brilliant young minds need certainty and sustainable funding, not just hand to hand, year by year allocations. Does the honourable gentleman agree with me that equitable funding across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and indeed for Strangford, would ensure that their young voices are heard on the national stage with proper financial support to enable full participation, just as the honourable gentleman did when he had the opportunity as well.
16:01
Speaker 17
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Speaker 17
I thank him for that point. It's something I will return to at the end of the speech, but I certainly think that actually, as we look across delivering better youth services, better youth participation for all our young people, we do need to think about how we properly fund it. And as I say, I'll return to that at the end of my speech. The UK Youth Parliament is an institution we can take great pride in. It develops skills and provides opportunities to young people from right across the country and helps them have a voice in our democracy.
I have had the privilege of meeting with the last two members of Youth Parliament for Bracknell, Erin and Kinsley, and I believe Kinsley's joined us in the gallery here today alongside other members of Youth Parliament. We briefly lost them to the the Right Honourable member for Richmond, but I'm glad to see he's let them go so they can come back to join us for this debate. And I've heard firsthand from members of Youth Parliament, from Bracknell and and across the country about the benefits of the scheme to them personally, as well as to the young people they represent.
I should at this point declare an interest as the chair of the Appg on Schools Learning and Assessment. Just before the summer, the Appg concluded its inquiry into votes at 16 with a report which of course, I would encourage all members to go away and read, especially the Minister. The inquiry's aim was to explore and make recommendations on how the government can prepare young people to feel educated and empowered to use their vote at the age of 16, and we heard from a wide range of young people, education professionals and youth and civil society organisations on how votes at 16 can not just be implemented, but made a success.
In the report, contributors highlighted the importance of engagement with democracy and the democratic process, not just in the classroom but through wider enrichment opportunities. And UK Youth Parliament is a perfect example of that. In fact, votes at 16 has been a long standing campaign of the UK Youth Parliament , and its imminent introduction is, I think, a direct example of the power that UK Youth Parliament has to give young people a platform to make change at the highest levels.
Mr. chair, I firmly believe that this government would not be making this historic change if it wasn't for the campaigning zeal of successive generations of MIPs, and I pay tribute to all of them.
I have had the privilege of meeting with the last two members of Youth Parliament for Bracknell, Erin and Kinsley, and I believe Kinsley's joined us in the gallery here today alongside other members of Youth Parliament. We briefly lost them to the the Right Honourable member for Richmond, but I'm glad to see he's let them go so they can come back to join us for this debate. And I've heard firsthand from members of Youth Parliament, from Bracknell and and across the country about the benefits of the scheme to them personally, as well as to the young people they represent.
I should at this point declare an interest as the chair of the Appg on Schools Learning and Assessment. Just before the summer, the Appg concluded its inquiry into votes at 16 with a report which of course, I would encourage all members to go away and read, especially the Minister. The inquiry's aim was to explore and make recommendations on how the government can prepare young people to feel educated and empowered to use their vote at the age of 16, and we heard from a wide range of young people, education professionals and youth and civil society organisations on how votes at 16 can not just be implemented, but made a success.
In the report, contributors highlighted the importance of engagement with democracy and the democratic process, not just in the classroom but through wider enrichment opportunities. And UK Youth Parliament is a perfect example of that. In fact, votes at 16 has been a long standing campaign of the UK Youth Parliament , and its imminent introduction is, I think, a direct example of the power that UK Youth Parliament has to give young people a platform to make change at the highest levels.
Mr. chair, I firmly believe that this government would not be making this historic change if it wasn't for the campaigning zeal of successive generations of MIPs, and I pay tribute to all of them.
16:03
16:03
16:03
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
I thank my honourable friend for giving way. I wish to put on record my sincere thanks for Wolverhampton's Youth Council, who have done a tremendous job at bringing a strong voice to represent young people across our city. They truly care about our communities and our city. Does the Minister and honourable member agree with me that if we invest in our young people now, that makes good economic sense for investing in our future?
16:04
Speaker 17
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Speaker 17
Absolutely, and it's a theme I will turn to. But I think investing in young people is so important not only to empower young people themselves, but also so that we have the skills, the experience needed in the economy, so that young people can go on and get good jobs to support their local communities. And I think that is exactly why I have always championed everything we can do to empower young people at the earliest of ages.
16:04
Speaker 19
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Speaker 19
Thank you. I thank my friend extremely important speech about young people's participation in politics. I recently got to meet Freddy Bernard Cherry, who is member of Youth Parliament for Preston and South Ribble in my constituency, and I was particularly impressed by the amount of work he's already done himself to better his community, such as youth surveys on anti-social behaviour and work around water safety. So does my honourable friend agree that greater investment in UK Youth Parliament is not just a nice thing for young people, but also a brilliant investment in improving our communities right now?
16:05
16:05
Speaker 17
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Speaker 17
I quite agree and I know that there have been many young people who have used their time as NYP to make a real difference, including the former NYP for Wolverhampton, Sienna's campaign against knife crime, where she delivered bleed control kits across the West Midlands. Former MP for Durham Katelyn's work on setting up the big debate in her local area. And I'm really, really proud that I'm going to be working with Kinsley, the NYP, for Bracknell Forest, on his priorities for our community, including young people's mental health and local transport.
16:05
16:05
16:05
16:06
Speaker 17
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Speaker 17
What a lovely thing to have on on record. And she does sound like an incredible young woman. Members of Youth Parliament, like MPs, are elected to represent their local area. They engage in debate at a local, regional and national level on a huge range of issues. And in 20 and in 2009 became the first body ever, aside from members of Parliament to use the Commons chamber. Please.
16:06
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I'm grateful for for for giving way. I know we've got some former alumni of the Youth Parliament in the chamber with us today, and actually I was on the steering committee as a young person that set up the UK Youth Parliament. So it's great to see so many former members now taking their seats in the chamber. Sadly, not so many from my side of the of the aisle. But I wonder if the honourable member would agree with me that the UK Youth Parliament plays a crucial role, but actually those people or young people who are less confident, more disadvantaged and simply feel that politics has nothing to do with them, might not engage through that.
And so this is an opportunity for the government to encourage more engagement across youth politics, not just those who want to take elected roles.
And so this is an opportunity for the government to encourage more engagement across youth politics, not just those who want to take elected roles.
16:07
Speaker 17
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Speaker 17
I quite agree, and it's a theme I'll return to a little later on. I think there are sometimes some misunder miscomprehension about actually how diverse the NYP scheme really is, but I do absolutely think that as government looks to its future, we should be talking about making it even better and even more inclusive. And that is, that is all for the better. It is already the case that, in Dcms's own words, the UK Youth Parliament is Dcms's key mechanism for engaging with young people and ensuring their voices are heard in policy and decision making.
And if we're serious about protecting and nurturing our democracy, we must also protect and nurture the opportunities we give our young people to properly engage with it, understand it, and feel a part of it. Of course.
And if we're serious about protecting and nurturing our democracy, we must also protect and nurture the opportunities we give our young people to properly engage with it, understand it, and feel a part of it. Of course.
16:08
16:08
Speaker 17
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Speaker 17
I completely agree. And whilst sadly I have not yet secured pride in place for Bracknell Forest, what I would say is I think, you know, I would encourage all honourable and right honourable members to think about, including their local Myps and other youth representatives, as part of that programme. And I think that can only be for the better. And I think all of this is never been more crucial. With the welcome enfranchisement of 16 and 17 year olds, and the UK Youth Parliament has a vital role to play in seizing the opportunity presented by votes at 16 to make the next generation the most informed and engaged ever.
I'd be delighted. It
I'd be delighted. It
16:09
Speaker 20
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Speaker 20
makes a very good point about young people being informed and engaged, but I think there's more than that. There's also giving them the chance to be heard in their ideas and, and have the ensure that the brilliant ideas that they bring have impact. And I just want to pay tribute to the young people who have joined my Your Voice Your Future Campaigns programme this summer and in previous summers. It's because those young people have raised things with me, like the social media ban that has come into force, that I have been able to ensure that in my contributions in Parliament, their.
Their voices are heard, but the youth Parliament, they can do that directly. And so does he agree that it's about those ideas and that impact that young people can have as well?
Their voices are heard, but the youth Parliament, they can do that directly. And so does he agree that it's about those ideas and that impact that young people can have as well?
16:09
16:09
Speaker 17
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Speaker 17
I mean, I passionately believe, as I know, that this government does, that when we are forming policies that will directly shape young people's lives, it would be very, very wrong to do that without actually engaging young people. We might not always agree with their conclusions. I know that many of the young people I spoke to in Bracknell Forest came to a different conclusion on a social media ban than I did. But importantly, I you know, I hope that they feel that I have listened to their concerns and very much, you know, their views have shaped my thinking on that and many other issues.
In 2023, DCMs commissioned IFF research to evaluate the UK Youth Parliament. The evaluation found that the programme is delivering on its intended goals to engage young people across the country in the democratic process and give them a route through which to express their voices on the very issues which we've been discussing that matter the most to them. MIPs reported improved confidence, resilience, communication, problem solving, teamwork and critical thinking skills, to name but a few.
These are the very skills employers are crying out for from young people. The very skills this government has committed to place at the heart of our education system. Something I particularly want to emphasize is that MIPs consistently reported that meeting and making connections with other young people from across the country was a highlight of the programme, and I share the concern of. Parents and teachers across the country have raised with.
Have raised that an increasingly online world is an increasingly atomized, isolated one for young people. So programs like the UK Youth Parliament, which inspire and excite young people and give them the opportunity to connect and learn from their peers, away from the online world are crucial. This government's National Youth Strategy was the first in two decades and sets out our commitment to building a country which works not just for, but also with young people. And I believe the UK Youth Parliament has a clear role to play in helping the Department achieve this strategy, especially its key aim that our society must be one in which young people are meaningfully seen and heard.
This means giving. I'd be delighted. . He's
In 2023, DCMs commissioned IFF research to evaluate the UK Youth Parliament. The evaluation found that the programme is delivering on its intended goals to engage young people across the country in the democratic process and give them a route through which to express their voices on the very issues which we've been discussing that matter the most to them. MIPs reported improved confidence, resilience, communication, problem solving, teamwork and critical thinking skills, to name but a few.
These are the very skills employers are crying out for from young people. The very skills this government has committed to place at the heart of our education system. Something I particularly want to emphasize is that MIPs consistently reported that meeting and making connections with other young people from across the country was a highlight of the programme, and I share the concern of. Parents and teachers across the country have raised with.
Have raised that an increasingly online world is an increasingly atomized, isolated one for young people. So programs like the UK Youth Parliament, which inspire and excite young people and give them the opportunity to connect and learn from their peers, away from the online world are crucial. This government's National Youth Strategy was the first in two decades and sets out our commitment to building a country which works not just for, but also with young people. And I believe the UK Youth Parliament has a clear role to play in helping the Department achieve this strategy, especially its key aim that our society must be one in which young people are meaningfully seen and heard.
This means giving. I'd be delighted. . He's
16:12
16:12
Speaker 14
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Speaker 14
A brilliant speech on a very important topic. And regarding making sure that young people's voices are heard at the very heart of government. Would he agree with me that the government should consider appointing a minister for the younger and future generations, with a team of staff whose sole job is to listen to those voices, bring them to the table of cabinet, but also to assess all existing policy and legislation and look at proposed legislation through the lens of whether it does give a voice to young people and take their interests into account.
16:12
Speaker 17
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Speaker 17
I welcome the point. I think I'd do him one better. I think that should be the job of every single minister in government. Because it is the role of government to deliver for people up and down this country, and I think we have a particular duty to deliver for our young people. And sometimes it is their voices who are who are most forgotten. I do recognise that the UK Youth Parliament scheme always has room for improvement.
Mr. chair, it's certainly disappointing that not every area is represented currently in Youth Parliament, and that not all local areas engage evenly with the scheme. To coin a phrase, I want to see youth opportunity and youth engagement in every postcode. I have also. I have also heard concerns that it's not diverse enough that it only engages those most likely already to participate. The Youth Parliament is in fact on that measure, far out performing this Parliament its older sibling.
They are far more representative body than we are. Around 52% of the previous Ukip intake were women, compared to around 41% of MPs. Around 40% have had an ethnic minority background, compared to around 14% of us, and around 9% came from the most disadvantaged 10% of areas, according to the Index of Multiple Deprivation, with a roughly 51% coming from postcodes ranked in the most deprived half of I am deciles. So whilst there's always more work to be done on this, we could do well to take note of the success of the UK Youth Parliament has had in electing a rich and diverse group of representatives.
I also think it's important to stress that although the programme's most visible success might be the annual debate in the House, where young people stand up and debate so eloquently, there are many local successes that we should remember as well, and we've already spoken about many of those here today . And all of this success, both locally and nationally, comes at a cost, which is, I think, in departmental terms, certainly in government terms, extremely small and extremely good value.
The last full two year funding commitment given by DCMs came to only 750 zero zero £0. Mr. chair, I hope colleagues can appreciate that until now I've tried to avoid too many cliches about young people. They are, in the words of young people, I think from a man of my age, cringe. But I do want to indulge a little bit now with with some final thoughts. Not actually from myself, but from Kinsley, our current MP for Bracknell Forest, who put it so much better than than I ever could hope to.
He says investing in UK IP is investing in young people, our communities and the future of our democracy here.
Mr. chair, it's certainly disappointing that not every area is represented currently in Youth Parliament, and that not all local areas engage evenly with the scheme. To coin a phrase, I want to see youth opportunity and youth engagement in every postcode. I have also. I have also heard concerns that it's not diverse enough that it only engages those most likely already to participate. The Youth Parliament is in fact on that measure, far out performing this Parliament its older sibling.
They are far more representative body than we are. Around 52% of the previous Ukip intake were women, compared to around 41% of MPs. Around 40% have had an ethnic minority background, compared to around 14% of us, and around 9% came from the most disadvantaged 10% of areas, according to the Index of Multiple Deprivation, with a roughly 51% coming from postcodes ranked in the most deprived half of I am deciles. So whilst there's always more work to be done on this, we could do well to take note of the success of the UK Youth Parliament has had in electing a rich and diverse group of representatives.
I also think it's important to stress that although the programme's most visible success might be the annual debate in the House, where young people stand up and debate so eloquently, there are many local successes that we should remember as well, and we've already spoken about many of those here today . And all of this success, both locally and nationally, comes at a cost, which is, I think, in departmental terms, certainly in government terms, extremely small and extremely good value.
The last full two year funding commitment given by DCMs came to only 750 zero zero £0. Mr. chair, I hope colleagues can appreciate that until now I've tried to avoid too many cliches about young people. They are, in the words of young people, I think from a man of my age, cringe. But I do want to indulge a little bit now with with some final thoughts. Not actually from myself, but from Kinsley, our current MP for Bracknell Forest, who put it so much better than than I ever could hope to.
He says investing in UK IP is investing in young people, our communities and the future of our democracy here.
16:15
16:15
16:15
16:15
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. And I thank the member for Bracknell for securing this debate and for his excellent speech. As the member for Hemel Hempstead. I'm proud to support and want to see continued support for a nationally elected UK youth Parliament, and this does come from personal experience of having been a member of the UK Youth Parliament way back in 2001, and then proceeding to be part of the procedures group as it was until 2003 and then subsequently for a brief period serving as a trustee of the UK Youth Parliament later in that decade.
And I want to start by paying tribute to Kate Parrish and Peter Clarke in particular, as two people that were central to the creation of the UK Youth Parliament and certainly provided me with a great deal of support. And I really do attribute the UK Youth Parliament experience in the UK Youth Parliament as to why I'm stood before you today as a Member of Parliament. It really was the start of my journey as to dedicating my life to public service and. And as we've heard, there are so many others that have now followed in that path.
Two when I was first elected back to, well, first elected to Parliament to represent Hertfordshire again for the first time since I had represented Hertfordshire as a member of the UK Youth Parliament, I was really sad to discover that Hertfordshire at that point didn't have. Weren't participating any longer in the UK Youth Parliament scheme, so along with other Labour MPs in Hertfordshire, worked very closely with councillors, including both the Liberal Democrat and the Labour councillors at Hertfordshire County Council, to try and bring it back.
And I'm delighted that Hertfordshire now does participate in the UK Youth Parliament, and I was had the pleasure of meeting those representatives for this year, including a gentleman who represents Hemel Hempstead a few weeks back and I want to pay tribute to Katy Feinman and Karen Haswell for the brilliant work they do as youth workers in Hertfordshire and the best part of the UK Parliament. And the member for Newbury and the member for Bracknell have touched on.
This is when it does reach people from diverse backgrounds and particularly from working class backgrounds, and I do recognise the. Sometimes there is some criticism of that, but I think that the member for Bracknell was very eloquently laid out in the ways in which it is actually doing a terrific job. It certainly helped me as someone who hadn't participated in anything like this before, really built my skills and confidence. And as often the first experience many people have of speaking in public, of networking and meeting with other people.
And I think we have to ensure that we don't lose that going forward. On that point, of course.
And I want to start by paying tribute to Kate Parrish and Peter Clarke in particular, as two people that were central to the creation of the UK Youth Parliament and certainly provided me with a great deal of support. And I really do attribute the UK Youth Parliament experience in the UK Youth Parliament as to why I'm stood before you today as a Member of Parliament. It really was the start of my journey as to dedicating my life to public service and. And as we've heard, there are so many others that have now followed in that path.
Two when I was first elected back to, well, first elected to Parliament to represent Hertfordshire again for the first time since I had represented Hertfordshire as a member of the UK Youth Parliament, I was really sad to discover that Hertfordshire at that point didn't have. Weren't participating any longer in the UK Youth Parliament scheme, so along with other Labour MPs in Hertfordshire, worked very closely with councillors, including both the Liberal Democrat and the Labour councillors at Hertfordshire County Council, to try and bring it back.
And I'm delighted that Hertfordshire now does participate in the UK Youth Parliament, and I was had the pleasure of meeting those representatives for this year, including a gentleman who represents Hemel Hempstead a few weeks back and I want to pay tribute to Katy Feinman and Karen Haswell for the brilliant work they do as youth workers in Hertfordshire and the best part of the UK Parliament. And the member for Newbury and the member for Bracknell have touched on.
This is when it does reach people from diverse backgrounds and particularly from working class backgrounds, and I do recognise the. Sometimes there is some criticism of that, but I think that the member for Bracknell was very eloquently laid out in the ways in which it is actually doing a terrific job. It certainly helped me as someone who hadn't participated in anything like this before, really built my skills and confidence. And as often the first experience many people have of speaking in public, of networking and meeting with other people.
And I think we have to ensure that we don't lose that going forward. On that point, of course.
16:18
Speaker 21
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Speaker 21
I'm grateful for my friend for giving way on that point, the point about youth service and young people being supported to find their voice, to understand the and navigate the relationships, the structures and the adult structures which the UK Youth Parliament, in order to feed in their ideas and their ambitions and their thoughts is incredibly important. And the youth service has been absolutely decimated. And it is this youth service and those supporting youth workers that are required to really build back this up.
16:19
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you. I couldn't agree more. And I would just say that if we're looking at the future of the UK Youth Parliament, perhaps the solution to this sort of postcode problem that the member for Bracknell alluded to is to maybe offer a bit more to mandate local authorities to do, go further and faster in terms of making sure that the UK Youth Parliament is inclusive and it does reach people from working class backgrounds because, as I say, it'd be a shame if we lost that.
It's really important that working class kids get a chance to have their voices heard in a way that they are at the moment. And I do just want to conclude by saying that I do think it's really important that particularly we vote to. 16 on the horizon, that the future UK Youth Parliament continues to be one in which the elections are elected, with participation from many young people as possible in different schools around each county.
I think it's really important that we remember that the UK Parliament is not just about the few that are lucky enough to be elected to the UK Youth Parliament, but the fact that over the years, millions of young people have participated in the UK Youth Parliament in one way or another, including through the elections, but also the subsequent campaigns that go on in local areas as as as the Right Honourable member for sorry, member for Bracknell had said, it's not just about that national conference, it is about the activities that go on around the country throughout the year and we shouldn't lose sight of that.
So I join others in asking that the government and Parliament and the speaker's office work together to find a truly sustainable funding mechanism for the future. We all want to be standing here in, or probably not standing here ourselves, but listening maybe in 20 years time, and look around and see members of the audience. Perhaps today sat where we are and giving speeches about the importance of the UK Parliament. Thank
It's really important that working class kids get a chance to have their voices heard in a way that they are at the moment. And I do just want to conclude by saying that I do think it's really important that particularly we vote to. 16 on the horizon, that the future UK Youth Parliament continues to be one in which the elections are elected, with participation from many young people as possible in different schools around each county.
I think it's really important that we remember that the UK Parliament is not just about the few that are lucky enough to be elected to the UK Youth Parliament, but the fact that over the years, millions of young people have participated in the UK Youth Parliament in one way or another, including through the elections, but also the subsequent campaigns that go on in local areas as as as the Right Honourable member for sorry, member for Bracknell had said, it's not just about that national conference, it is about the activities that go on around the country throughout the year and we shouldn't lose sight of that.
So I join others in asking that the government and Parliament and the speaker's office work together to find a truly sustainable funding mechanism for the future. We all want to be standing here in, or probably not standing here ourselves, but listening maybe in 20 years time, and look around and see members of the audience. Perhaps today sat where we are and giving speeches about the importance of the UK Parliament. Thank
16:20
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16:20
Speaker 23
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Speaker 23
much and it's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Mr. Betts. I want to congratulate the honourable friend, the member for Bracknell, during this incredibly important debate today, and I congratulate him on the success of the campaign for votes at 16, as highlighted in the recent inquiry from the Appg on schools Learning assessment, which he chairs. I'm sorry to hear that he came third in his National Youth Parliament ambitions, but I'm very, very delighted to see that you are here now in Parliament with us.
I also want to acknowledge my honourable friend, the member for Hemel Hempstead, his personal experience as a member of the Youth Parliament between 2001 and 2003, highlights the lasting impact that youth participation can have, and I want to express my deepest thanks to him for his tireless advocacy for young people, both in his constituency and right across the nation. I know how passionately he cares about ensuring that the next generation is not merely listened to, but genuinely heard and empowered.
And that also goes for all members who contributed today. The member for Walsall, Wolverhampton North East, the member for Aylesbury, the member for Gravesham, the member for Newbury, the member for rugby have all highlighted the
I also want to acknowledge my honourable friend, the member for Hemel Hempstead, his personal experience as a member of the Youth Parliament between 2001 and 2003, highlights the lasting impact that youth participation can have, and I want to express my deepest thanks to him for his tireless advocacy for young people, both in his constituency and right across the nation. I know how passionately he cares about ensuring that the next generation is not merely listened to, but genuinely heard and empowered.
And that also goes for all members who contributed today. The member for Walsall, Wolverhampton North East, the member for Aylesbury, the member for Gravesham, the member for Newbury, the member for rugby have all highlighted the
16:22
16:22
16:22
Speaker 16
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Speaker 16
Absolutely fantastic to hear that they're being celebrated here today. I also want to pay tribute to the incredible partner organizations, youth workers, and above all, the inspiring young people who delivered the UK Youth Parliament day in and day out. And it's it's genuinely great to see so many of you here in the of them here in the gallery today. Now, throughout my time as MP and previously and in particular my work leading the Youth Violence Commission, my purpose has been rooted in supporting young people and standing with them.
I have seen first hand the transformational impact of timely intervention , how a trusted adult, a safe space or a creative outlet offers a vital lifeline and a transformed future. This work showed me that young people have the solutions. They just need the space, support and opportunities to lead. And that insight drives my decisions as Minister for youth and underpins our commitment to ensuring that every young person gets the opportunities that they deserve.
Our young people are not merely the leaders of tomorrow. They are active, vibrant and thoughtful citizens of today. They deserve to be heard, valued, and be in the driving seat about decisions that affect their lives. And since 1999, the UK Youth Parliament has provided thousands of young people a platform to champion key issues, hold decision makers to account and drive positive social change in their communities. And we are currently working closely with young people and partners, including members of the Youth Parliament, to co-design the government's work to increase young people's involvement in democracy and decision making, with a particular focus on underrepresented groups.
We will share the outcomes of this later in the autumn. We are also keeping our promise to give 16 and 17 year olds the right to vote through votes at 16. We are working closely across governments to implement this commitment, ensuring that the necessary legislative and operational preparations are in place to successfully embed democratic participation early so that young people have a formal stake in shaping the future of our country. And I'm personally passionate about ensuring that inclusivity in everything we do.
It is not enough to simply open the door. We must actively break down the structural and socio economic barriers that prevent young people from underrepresented backgrounds from stepping through it. Every young person, regardless of their ethnicity, geography, or background, deserves an equal voice, and it is imperative that more young people across the country gain direct, meaningful access to influence decisions both locally in their communities and nationally by embedding young people into decision making processes.
We ensure our policy solutions are richer, fairer and generally reflective of the nation we serve. We are taking proactive, transformative steps across our wider youth empowerment initiatives through our through our pillar of youth matters. Be seen and be heard to ensure young people are directly in the driving seat. And as part of this, we will be recruiting a dedicated new youth policy network to co-design national government policy as we will shortly be refreshing our Youth advisory group who will oversee the delivery of youth matters.
We are also backing Youth Social action by continuing to support the I Will movement and through the Youth Matters Fund, we are assembling youth decision making directly into local investment. This will include a range of tools and support to ensure minimum standards and meaningful engagement with young people to ensure provision is targeted where young people need it most. All of these democratic and participation initiatives align directly with our overarching national youth strategy, Youth Matters, published in 2025 and as was said, the first in over 15 years, Youth Matters represents a fundamental shift in how we support young people across our government.
For too long, young youth services were subjected to short term, fragmented funding that left provision patchy and unsustainable. We are moving away from those temporary fixes towards sustainable, long term support that gives youth workers and local organisations the stability they need to build lasting relationships with young people. Youth matters provides the foundations for our ongoing work with young people to co-design a refreshed approach approach to youth empowerment, ensuring national opportunities are better connected to local infrastructure.
So I do invite honourable members to share experiences of what is working in their constituencies with the department, and to continue creating opportunities for young people to engage with them, where and where appropriate. With Parliament, I hope this debate will be the beginning of an ongoing conversation. So in conclusion, I genuinely want to thank my honourable friend for Bracknell once again for bringing forward this important debate. Our wider youth strategy is about giving every young person, someone who cares somewhere to go and something to do.
And I do believe that together we will build a society where every single young person feels valued, safe, supported, seen and truly heard.
I have seen first hand the transformational impact of timely intervention , how a trusted adult, a safe space or a creative outlet offers a vital lifeline and a transformed future. This work showed me that young people have the solutions. They just need the space, support and opportunities to lead. And that insight drives my decisions as Minister for youth and underpins our commitment to ensuring that every young person gets the opportunities that they deserve.
Our young people are not merely the leaders of tomorrow. They are active, vibrant and thoughtful citizens of today. They deserve to be heard, valued, and be in the driving seat about decisions that affect their lives. And since 1999, the UK Youth Parliament has provided thousands of young people a platform to champion key issues, hold decision makers to account and drive positive social change in their communities. And we are currently working closely with young people and partners, including members of the Youth Parliament, to co-design the government's work to increase young people's involvement in democracy and decision making, with a particular focus on underrepresented groups.
We will share the outcomes of this later in the autumn. We are also keeping our promise to give 16 and 17 year olds the right to vote through votes at 16. We are working closely across governments to implement this commitment, ensuring that the necessary legislative and operational preparations are in place to successfully embed democratic participation early so that young people have a formal stake in shaping the future of our country. And I'm personally passionate about ensuring that inclusivity in everything we do.
It is not enough to simply open the door. We must actively break down the structural and socio economic barriers that prevent young people from underrepresented backgrounds from stepping through it. Every young person, regardless of their ethnicity, geography, or background, deserves an equal voice, and it is imperative that more young people across the country gain direct, meaningful access to influence decisions both locally in their communities and nationally by embedding young people into decision making processes.
We ensure our policy solutions are richer, fairer and generally reflective of the nation we serve. We are taking proactive, transformative steps across our wider youth empowerment initiatives through our through our pillar of youth matters. Be seen and be heard to ensure young people are directly in the driving seat. And as part of this, we will be recruiting a dedicated new youth policy network to co-design national government policy as we will shortly be refreshing our Youth advisory group who will oversee the delivery of youth matters.
We are also backing Youth Social action by continuing to support the I Will movement and through the Youth Matters Fund, we are assembling youth decision making directly into local investment. This will include a range of tools and support to ensure minimum standards and meaningful engagement with young people to ensure provision is targeted where young people need it most. All of these democratic and participation initiatives align directly with our overarching national youth strategy, Youth Matters, published in 2025 and as was said, the first in over 15 years, Youth Matters represents a fundamental shift in how we support young people across our government.
For too long, young youth services were subjected to short term, fragmented funding that left provision patchy and unsustainable. We are moving away from those temporary fixes towards sustainable, long term support that gives youth workers and local organisations the stability they need to build lasting relationships with young people. Youth matters provides the foundations for our ongoing work with young people to co-design a refreshed approach approach to youth empowerment, ensuring national opportunities are better connected to local infrastructure.
So I do invite honourable members to share experiences of what is working in their constituencies with the department, and to continue creating opportunities for young people to engage with them, where and where appropriate. With Parliament, I hope this debate will be the beginning of an ongoing conversation. So in conclusion, I genuinely want to thank my honourable friend for Bracknell once again for bringing forward this important debate. Our wider youth strategy is about giving every young person, someone who cares somewhere to go and something to do.
And I do believe that together we will build a society where every single young person feels valued, safe, supported, seen and truly heard.
16:28
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16:30
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16:30
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
I'd like to thank thank the chair. It's an honour to serve under your chairmanship. I beg to move that the House is considered pecr training with send provision. Yeah. Before I go any further into this debate, I want to make an admission. Until last year, I had not encountered Pica either in a personal capacity or through my work in Parliament. I had never heard of the condition. My first awareness, Topeka, was a roundtable event I had organised last year.
The purpose of which was to hear the experiences of parents and professionals across my Dagenham and Rainham constituency, so I could feed their voices into the government's consultation on reform. At this event, I heard the brave story from a young woman and her family living with the realities of Pica. There are thousands of. There are many moments in the life of an MP that really move you. And despite the thousands of cases we deal with on behalf of our constituents, there are ones that truly stick with you.
The brave young woman at my send round table was Suzi Reed, and she is here today. I can honestly say this young woman's story, her journey, her perpetual struggle and the fight she has had to get the care her daughter needs and deserves actually hushed the room. Suzi told us about her life constantly assessing every room, every setting, every experience, and how the lack of help, combined with the failures of the system, were taking their toll on her mental health as well as the physical well-being of her child.
We heard her failures to provide access to a safe, educational setting for her child was resulting in daily anxiety, struggle, and because of lack of speaker recognition and understanding and training and daily explanations of why her child required bespoke care. I can actually say the room was moved to tears. Something Suzi said has stuck with me ever since. She said to me, Pica is not rare, it's just rarely spoken about.
And that's why I'm here today in Westminster Hall to speak and make the case for pica training to be a statutory requirement across educational settings under same provision. So what is pica? Pica is marked by an overwhelming compulsion to eat non-food and non-nutritional items such as glass, soil, clay, lead, ice and much more. Items that can poison punctured organs, choke and enter child's life. It's important to note that while this debate will focus on training in schools and other educational settings, Pica is something that also affects adults that have lived with it from an early age, and those cases where the condition has presented late.
I'll give way to the honourable gentleman. Can
The purpose of which was to hear the experiences of parents and professionals across my Dagenham and Rainham constituency, so I could feed their voices into the government's consultation on reform. At this event, I heard the brave story from a young woman and her family living with the realities of Pica. There are thousands of. There are many moments in the life of an MP that really move you. And despite the thousands of cases we deal with on behalf of our constituents, there are ones that truly stick with you.
The brave young woman at my send round table was Suzi Reed, and she is here today. I can honestly say this young woman's story, her journey, her perpetual struggle and the fight she has had to get the care her daughter needs and deserves actually hushed the room. Suzi told us about her life constantly assessing every room, every setting, every experience, and how the lack of help, combined with the failures of the system, were taking their toll on her mental health as well as the physical well-being of her child.
We heard her failures to provide access to a safe, educational setting for her child was resulting in daily anxiety, struggle, and because of lack of speaker recognition and understanding and training and daily explanations of why her child required bespoke care. I can actually say the room was moved to tears. Something Suzi said has stuck with me ever since. She said to me, Pica is not rare, it's just rarely spoken about.
And that's why I'm here today in Westminster Hall to speak and make the case for pica training to be a statutory requirement across educational settings under same provision. So what is pica? Pica is marked by an overwhelming compulsion to eat non-food and non-nutritional items such as glass, soil, clay, lead, ice and much more. Items that can poison punctured organs, choke and enter child's life. It's important to note that while this debate will focus on training in schools and other educational settings, Pica is something that also affects adults that have lived with it from an early age, and those cases where the condition has presented late.
I'll give way to the honourable gentleman. Can
16:33
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
I commend the Honourable Lady for bringing this forward? And normally it is a an ailment that perhaps isn't well recognised. And like herself, when I read up on it, I suddenly found out and did do some research into it. The issue is a UK wide problem. Last year in Northern Ireland there was a tragic incident involving a care home resident with cognitive impairment who exhibited some pica behaviours and sadly died after choking on a non-food substance.
Does the honourable lady agree that it's not just schools as care homes as residential settings? They're training for their staff and those are also essential to prevent potentially dangerous behaviors that can often go unnoticed.
Does the honourable lady agree that it's not just schools as care homes as residential settings? They're training for their staff and those are also essential to prevent potentially dangerous behaviors that can often go unnoticed.
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16:33
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
quite right in what he's saying. And thank you for bringing that to this debate. It is important to note that while this debate will focus on training in schools and other educational settings, it's important to note that there is a desperate need for speaker recognition and training to be applied across the NHS, local authorities, care provision and even housing providers. But that's not the focus today. Sadly, the condition is still not fully understood, which often results in people being dismissed or it being treated as a behavioural issue.
While there is a growing consensus that Peking must be treated like the serious medical and safeguarding issue, that it is the lack of awareness that the condition is overshadowed as such is not considered by policy makers. This has to change. Earlier this year I will be praying.
While there is a growing consensus that Peking must be treated like the serious medical and safeguarding issue, that it is the lack of awareness that the condition is overshadowed as such is not considered by policy makers. This has to change. Earlier this year I will be praying.
16:34
16:34
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Friend for giving way and for the work that she is doing now to really champion this cause. And I was also at that round table. And I have to say, it was a you're quite right. It did. She's quite right. It brought every single one of us to tears. Mr. chair, but would my hon. Friend agree that , given the potential serious health risks associated with Pica, she has mentioned the the compulsion to to eat glass or to potentially want to eat coal, that we shouldn't have a postcode lottery.
On whether teachers and staff understand how to recognise the seriousness of this condition and therefore there is a. There is an absolute case for some sort of national guidance and training on getting that out to people. So that awareness is there and we can help those people at their most vulnerable times.
On whether teachers and staff understand how to recognise the seriousness of this condition and therefore there is a. There is an absolute case for some sort of national guidance and training on getting that out to people. So that awareness is there and we can help those people at their most vulnerable times.
16:35
16:35
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
My hon. Friend for that intervention, and he's quite right. And that is what ultimately we are we are seeking long term. We don't want anyone to have to go through what families have already gone through, and only by sort of adopting a national training will that actually stop. Earlier this year, I held a Pica awareness parliamentary drop in session along Suzy and the National Picker Advisory Service, who are also here today. I met Belinda and the team who do amazing advocacy work to support parents of children with Pica.
Speaking to advocates and parents, the consistent theme was a lack of professional knowledge across sectors, whether that's at schools or. Another important point is when people present at hospital, parents are fed up of hearing, oh, don't worry, the item will pass through. Don't worry about it. At my event, the National Peak Advisory Service told the story of a parent with a child who had pica and they had not persisted with with the push through with the child.
It wasn't an upset tummy and had they not the parent pushed through, one of the child's organs would have failed and they would have died. There was a screw lodged in the child's intestines that was only discovered when the parent demanded an X-ray. This should have been the first port of call when the parent explained their child had pica, not something. Once again, a parent has to fight for. I heard of another story of a child in a rented property who would lick paint, but sadly, due to the age of the property was a private rented property.
The paint had high lead content and in such such circumstances had the child continued, it would have led to the child's death. Had again the parent not persisted. Early diagnosis and early intervention are key, are key, but so too is ensuring that adaptions are made, environments are made safe, and caregivers and educators are equipped with the knowledge and training to monitor those with pica. In 223, Pica came to prominence in the media due to the tragic case of a student at Welcome Hills, a specialist Sen provision school in Stratford upon Avon.
Irene had. Pica was an educational environment that understood this. Yet after choking on paper towel unsupervised owing aged 19 sadly died. The coroner's report highlighted that the school risk assessment recorded that Irene should never be left alone when out and in bold due to pica, a named person must watch own at all times. The report concludes and quotes Owen's carer specifically raised concerns around blue paper towels.
At a meeting on the 4th of January, Irene was discovered to have blue paper towel in his mouth and a message was sent to his carers that this had occurred on the 9th of January. Contrary to the risk assessment, Ian was outside of the classroom and was unsupervised. When Owen was located, it was discovered he had crammed a significant amount of blue paper towel into his mouth and throat and was choking. He was transported to Warwick Hospital. He suffered a hypoxic brain injury.
Decision, was taken to remove the life support and sadly, he died on the 11th of January. The Health and Safety Executive said the school had failed to ensure all risk associated with Peake were identified and had failed to respond to the family concerns. The multi-academy trust was fined £300,000 and told to learn from their mistakes. But let's be honest, they can move on with their lives. Somebody has lost a son, a family has lost a son and their lives will never be the same again.
This is an exceptional case and not a common occurrence, but it serves to highlight what can happen if pica is not taken seriously within an educational setting. All children deserve a safe, secure and happy educational journey, whether in mainstream education, a specialist school or other educational settings. But at present, for children with Pica, this is not being delivered. Parents with children who have Peake live their lives in a state of constant vigilance, and parents need the assurance that their child is being cared for with the same vigilance that they have at school.
That is why, alongside parents in my constituency, in the country, in the National Peake advice, I believe educators are responsible with the child with Pica must receive mandatory piquer training. This will support teachers to grow their knowledge of the condition and how to support anyone who has pica. Training must be about planning for Pica. Classrooms are full of potentially life threatening dangers to children with pica. Risk assessment should take account of all harmful hazardous substances staples, batteries, glassware, sharper poisons all items and magnets.
Replace them with safer items where possible non-toxic Play-Doh, paints and crayons. It is crucial that all educators are responsible for a child with Pica must have knowledge about the individual and read the plan. This is to help develop a good understanding of the child's piquer behaviours, how to keep them safe, how to redirect them. This should include a peak monitoring form regularly through this process. If an individual has particular piquer items, these can be identified and removed from the space, but that's an ongoing risk assessment.
Finally, all educators must learn and understand what the signs of choking, poisoning, and possible blockages in individuals with Pica to seek medical assistance if something goes wrong as soon as possible. Herein lies one of my main worries about the government's proposal to reform Stem provision. I've heard many stories of Pxr oversight in specialist schools, places that have very good, well trained professionals who should be able to risk, assess and keep children safe. However, because of the lack of specific pecr training and the significant pressures that in any Send environment brings, there are justified parental concerns that Peake was treated as an afterthought as many local authorities are pushed to deliver Stem provision in mainstream settings.
There is every possibility, given larger class sizes and more general on the training, that the new model will not building specialist training on pica or specific disorders. I will end as I started , by requesting that pica training is considered for inclusion in any reform, making it a statutory requirement across educational settings and under send provision. Thank you.
Speaking to advocates and parents, the consistent theme was a lack of professional knowledge across sectors, whether that's at schools or. Another important point is when people present at hospital, parents are fed up of hearing, oh, don't worry, the item will pass through. Don't worry about it. At my event, the National Peak Advisory Service told the story of a parent with a child who had pica and they had not persisted with with the push through with the child.
It wasn't an upset tummy and had they not the parent pushed through, one of the child's organs would have failed and they would have died. There was a screw lodged in the child's intestines that was only discovered when the parent demanded an X-ray. This should have been the first port of call when the parent explained their child had pica, not something. Once again, a parent has to fight for. I heard of another story of a child in a rented property who would lick paint, but sadly, due to the age of the property was a private rented property.
The paint had high lead content and in such such circumstances had the child continued, it would have led to the child's death. Had again the parent not persisted. Early diagnosis and early intervention are key, are key, but so too is ensuring that adaptions are made, environments are made safe, and caregivers and educators are equipped with the knowledge and training to monitor those with pica. In 223, Pica came to prominence in the media due to the tragic case of a student at Welcome Hills, a specialist Sen provision school in Stratford upon Avon.
Irene had. Pica was an educational environment that understood this. Yet after choking on paper towel unsupervised owing aged 19 sadly died. The coroner's report highlighted that the school risk assessment recorded that Irene should never be left alone when out and in bold due to pica, a named person must watch own at all times. The report concludes and quotes Owen's carer specifically raised concerns around blue paper towels.
At a meeting on the 4th of January, Irene was discovered to have blue paper towel in his mouth and a message was sent to his carers that this had occurred on the 9th of January. Contrary to the risk assessment, Ian was outside of the classroom and was unsupervised. When Owen was located, it was discovered he had crammed a significant amount of blue paper towel into his mouth and throat and was choking. He was transported to Warwick Hospital. He suffered a hypoxic brain injury.
Decision, was taken to remove the life support and sadly, he died on the 11th of January. The Health and Safety Executive said the school had failed to ensure all risk associated with Peake were identified and had failed to respond to the family concerns. The multi-academy trust was fined £300,000 and told to learn from their mistakes. But let's be honest, they can move on with their lives. Somebody has lost a son, a family has lost a son and their lives will never be the same again.
This is an exceptional case and not a common occurrence, but it serves to highlight what can happen if pica is not taken seriously within an educational setting. All children deserve a safe, secure and happy educational journey, whether in mainstream education, a specialist school or other educational settings. But at present, for children with Pica, this is not being delivered. Parents with children who have Peake live their lives in a state of constant vigilance, and parents need the assurance that their child is being cared for with the same vigilance that they have at school.
That is why, alongside parents in my constituency, in the country, in the National Peake advice, I believe educators are responsible with the child with Pica must receive mandatory piquer training. This will support teachers to grow their knowledge of the condition and how to support anyone who has pica. Training must be about planning for Pica. Classrooms are full of potentially life threatening dangers to children with pica. Risk assessment should take account of all harmful hazardous substances staples, batteries, glassware, sharper poisons all items and magnets.
Replace them with safer items where possible non-toxic Play-Doh, paints and crayons. It is crucial that all educators are responsible for a child with Pica must have knowledge about the individual and read the plan. This is to help develop a good understanding of the child's piquer behaviours, how to keep them safe, how to redirect them. This should include a peak monitoring form regularly through this process. If an individual has particular piquer items, these can be identified and removed from the space, but that's an ongoing risk assessment.
Finally, all educators must learn and understand what the signs of choking, poisoning, and possible blockages in individuals with Pica to seek medical assistance if something goes wrong as soon as possible. Herein lies one of my main worries about the government's proposal to reform Stem provision. I've heard many stories of Pxr oversight in specialist schools, places that have very good, well trained professionals who should be able to risk, assess and keep children safe. However, because of the lack of specific pecr training and the significant pressures that in any Send environment brings, there are justified parental concerns that Peake was treated as an afterthought as many local authorities are pushed to deliver Stem provision in mainstream settings.
There is every possibility, given larger class sizes and more general on the training, that the new model will not building specialist training on pica or specific disorders. I will end as I started , by requesting that pica training is considered for inclusion in any reform, making it a statutory requirement across educational settings and under send provision. Thank you.
16:41
16:41
Speaker 26
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Speaker 26
Thank you, Mr. Betts. It's a pleasure to serve with you in the chair today, and I would like to thank the member for Dagenham and Rainham for bringing this important topic before the House today and raising awareness of it in this place. As has already been set out by the honourable member, Pica is a condition most commonly associated with autism, learning disabilities and some mental health conditions in which a person compulsively eats non-food items such as soil, paper, hair, small objects or chemicals.
This, of course, means it does carry serious health risks, including choking, poisoning, internal injury and in the most severe cases, can be a cause of death. The specific causes of Pica are not clear, but the bottom line is that people, and especially children with pica, need support and management to help keep them safe. Pica is disproportionately prevalent among children and young people with autism and severe learning disabilities, and research estimates that 20 to 23% of young autistic children engage in eating non-food items.
And we know that the more severe a child or adults learning disability, the greater the chance that they will display pica behaviour. School staff working in Sen settings, including mainstream schools with Send pupils, special schools and early years settings, are therefore considerably more likely to encounter it than the population at large. The government's send reforms, with their focus on inclusion, will undoubtedly be a cause of concern for parents of children with Pica, who need to be reassured that their child will be able to receive the support they need if they're going to be taught in mainstream education.
I think probably what we can all agree on is that when it comes to send, the status quo is not working. The Sen system is failing children every single day. After years of neglect under the conservatives, it's failing to deliver the outcomes children deserve, and it's driving local authorities to the brink. So we welcome the government's commitment to improve outcomes, and its reforms are an important step in the right direction. But many questions remain about funding, staffing and early intervention.
All questions that parents of children with Pica need to know the answers to. The Liberal Democrats will continue to press the government to ensure vulnerable children, including those with Pica, get the support they need. One Liberal Democrat who has done just that is my honourable friend, the member for Epsom and Ewell, who was unfortunately unable to attend today. But her work supporting one of her constituents with Pica illustrates how the system is currently failing these children.
Her constituent lives in constant fear that as soon as she leaves the room, her child will eat something dangerous, for example carpet underlay, which could have fatal consequences. The National Pica Advisory Service, who I believe might be with us today, have been a vital resource for her constituent, for which I would like to thank them, but they shouldn't have to be. I repeat, children in the UK have died and will continue to die as a direct result of Pica, and yet no one is taking my hon.
Friend's constituent or Pica as a whole seriously. Many medical professionals don't understand the condition. There is a fundamental lack of awareness and it is regularly dismissed as autism when it is a separate diagnosis. And importantly, there is a lack of formal support pathways and an absence of national guidelines, which is unacceptable. Children and young people living with Pica and their families deserve so much better. Effective management of Pica could include staff recognising the behaviour, understanding its triggers and applying consistent stay safe strategies such as depicting the environment.
Teaching children to discriminate between edible and non-edible items, and offering safe sensory or textural substitutes. If we are to have an inclusive Sen system that works for all children, including those with Pica, then schools and teachers must be equipped with the training they need to support those children. This is one reason why the Liberal Democrats would improve teacher training and CPD, with a focus on identifying and supporting children with Send, including those with autism, dyslexia or other neurodiverse conditions such as Pica.
Being aware of this condition is the first step to keeping children safe. We have also consistently campaigned for putting early identification at the heart of any Send interventions and reducing diagnostic delays by streamlining NHS processes and increasing funding for assessments. Awareness of behaviours like pica is an important part of keeping pupils safe. Teachers and support staff need to be able to recognise pica when they see it. As a result, advice on recognising Pica should be included in the new send training offer for teachers and support staff at a general level.
But while there needs to be a greater emphasis on teachers and support staff being able to identify conditions like Pica and other general barriers to learning as part of the Send reforms, it shouldn't be their responsibility to diagnose or to offer detailed support. Knowing how to actually manage and support a child who is showing pica behaviour safely is a specialist skill, and more detailed advice, advice and support must be available to teachers who have a child with Pica in their class.
This is why it's so important that the health element of an ehcp actually means something. Currently, there is no legal footing for ensuring children, including those who have conditions like pica or arfid, avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. There's no legal footing for ensuring that they can access healthcare, the healthcare they need as part of their ehcp. We Liberal Democrats were disappointed that earlier this week, the Health and Social Care Committee's amendment was not added to the health bill, as this amendment would have given statutory footing to the H in E p and help children with Pica and Arfid get the help support that they so desperately need.
And this is also why we need to ensure that teachers have the help they need in the classroom, with more specialist staff in schools to meet neurodiverse children's needs, the expert at hand service is something we welcome, but we can't create these people out of thin air. And given the lack of such specialists, the Liberal Democrats are calling on the government to publish a credible workforce plan to recruit and train the staff needed and encourage trained specialists back into the profession, pushing the emphasis onto individual teachers to spot and manage learning needs.
Without new specialist capacity is a cost saving measure rather than a genuine improvement in support for our children. Teachers cannot be expected to have every form of Sen training required to meet the specific needs of every child, while also having all the skills necessary to teach the class. We cannot shove the burden of send on overworked, burnt out teachers and expect good results for all the children with special educational needs, as well as all the other children in the class.
It's also important to note that inclusion focused send reforms will only be deliverable if we reduce wider pressures on educators like workload. I ran a recent survey of teachers with just under 1000 responses, and nearly half of them said they were planning to quit the classroom in the next five years, citing high workload as a key reason. That's why the Liberal Democrats are calling for a proper enforcement of teachers legally mandated working hours, the introduction of reasonable limits on overtime, and for all schools to be required to introduce flexible working policies, but to finish by returning to the topic of this debate, the Liberal Democrats are clear that children with pica must be kept safe if they are to be taught in mainstream school, and their parents deserve that guarantee, which I do hope the minister today will be able to provide every child with autism, dyslexia or another neurodiverse condition like Pica deserves the chance to thrive in school and move confidently on with their life and into work with earlier assessment, better training for teachers and inclusive education and more specialist support, we can unlock the talents of neurodivergent young people and help them thrive in life.
Thank you.
This, of course, means it does carry serious health risks, including choking, poisoning, internal injury and in the most severe cases, can be a cause of death. The specific causes of Pica are not clear, but the bottom line is that people, and especially children with pica, need support and management to help keep them safe. Pica is disproportionately prevalent among children and young people with autism and severe learning disabilities, and research estimates that 20 to 23% of young autistic children engage in eating non-food items.
And we know that the more severe a child or adults learning disability, the greater the chance that they will display pica behaviour. School staff working in Sen settings, including mainstream schools with Send pupils, special schools and early years settings, are therefore considerably more likely to encounter it than the population at large. The government's send reforms, with their focus on inclusion, will undoubtedly be a cause of concern for parents of children with Pica, who need to be reassured that their child will be able to receive the support they need if they're going to be taught in mainstream education.
I think probably what we can all agree on is that when it comes to send, the status quo is not working. The Sen system is failing children every single day. After years of neglect under the conservatives, it's failing to deliver the outcomes children deserve, and it's driving local authorities to the brink. So we welcome the government's commitment to improve outcomes, and its reforms are an important step in the right direction. But many questions remain about funding, staffing and early intervention.
All questions that parents of children with Pica need to know the answers to. The Liberal Democrats will continue to press the government to ensure vulnerable children, including those with Pica, get the support they need. One Liberal Democrat who has done just that is my honourable friend, the member for Epsom and Ewell, who was unfortunately unable to attend today. But her work supporting one of her constituents with Pica illustrates how the system is currently failing these children.
Her constituent lives in constant fear that as soon as she leaves the room, her child will eat something dangerous, for example carpet underlay, which could have fatal consequences. The National Pica Advisory Service, who I believe might be with us today, have been a vital resource for her constituent, for which I would like to thank them, but they shouldn't have to be. I repeat, children in the UK have died and will continue to die as a direct result of Pica, and yet no one is taking my hon.
Friend's constituent or Pica as a whole seriously. Many medical professionals don't understand the condition. There is a fundamental lack of awareness and it is regularly dismissed as autism when it is a separate diagnosis. And importantly, there is a lack of formal support pathways and an absence of national guidelines, which is unacceptable. Children and young people living with Pica and their families deserve so much better. Effective management of Pica could include staff recognising the behaviour, understanding its triggers and applying consistent stay safe strategies such as depicting the environment.
Teaching children to discriminate between edible and non-edible items, and offering safe sensory or textural substitutes. If we are to have an inclusive Sen system that works for all children, including those with Pica, then schools and teachers must be equipped with the training they need to support those children. This is one reason why the Liberal Democrats would improve teacher training and CPD, with a focus on identifying and supporting children with Send, including those with autism, dyslexia or other neurodiverse conditions such as Pica.
Being aware of this condition is the first step to keeping children safe. We have also consistently campaigned for putting early identification at the heart of any Send interventions and reducing diagnostic delays by streamlining NHS processes and increasing funding for assessments. Awareness of behaviours like pica is an important part of keeping pupils safe. Teachers and support staff need to be able to recognise pica when they see it. As a result, advice on recognising Pica should be included in the new send training offer for teachers and support staff at a general level.
But while there needs to be a greater emphasis on teachers and support staff being able to identify conditions like Pica and other general barriers to learning as part of the Send reforms, it shouldn't be their responsibility to diagnose or to offer detailed support. Knowing how to actually manage and support a child who is showing pica behaviour safely is a specialist skill, and more detailed advice, advice and support must be available to teachers who have a child with Pica in their class.
This is why it's so important that the health element of an ehcp actually means something. Currently, there is no legal footing for ensuring children, including those who have conditions like pica or arfid, avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. There's no legal footing for ensuring that they can access healthcare, the healthcare they need as part of their ehcp. We Liberal Democrats were disappointed that earlier this week, the Health and Social Care Committee's amendment was not added to the health bill, as this amendment would have given statutory footing to the H in E p and help children with Pica and Arfid get the help support that they so desperately need.
And this is also why we need to ensure that teachers have the help they need in the classroom, with more specialist staff in schools to meet neurodiverse children's needs, the expert at hand service is something we welcome, but we can't create these people out of thin air. And given the lack of such specialists, the Liberal Democrats are calling on the government to publish a credible workforce plan to recruit and train the staff needed and encourage trained specialists back into the profession, pushing the emphasis onto individual teachers to spot and manage learning needs.
Without new specialist capacity is a cost saving measure rather than a genuine improvement in support for our children. Teachers cannot be expected to have every form of Sen training required to meet the specific needs of every child, while also having all the skills necessary to teach the class. We cannot shove the burden of send on overworked, burnt out teachers and expect good results for all the children with special educational needs, as well as all the other children in the class.
It's also important to note that inclusion focused send reforms will only be deliverable if we reduce wider pressures on educators like workload. I ran a recent survey of teachers with just under 1000 responses, and nearly half of them said they were planning to quit the classroom in the next five years, citing high workload as a key reason. That's why the Liberal Democrats are calling for a proper enforcement of teachers legally mandated working hours, the introduction of reasonable limits on overtime, and for all schools to be required to introduce flexible working policies, but to finish by returning to the topic of this debate, the Liberal Democrats are clear that children with pica must be kept safe if they are to be taught in mainstream school, and their parents deserve that guarantee, which I do hope the minister today will be able to provide every child with autism, dyslexia or another neurodiverse condition like Pica deserves the chance to thrive in school and move confidently on with their life and into work with earlier assessment, better training for teachers and inclusive education and more specialist support, we can unlock the talents of neurodivergent young people and help them thrive in life.
Thank you.
16:49
16:50
Speaker 27
-
Speaker 27
Thank you. Mr. Betts is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and I thank the member for Dagenham and Rainham for that eloquent and important speech and for securing this debate and for her work campaigning for a better Sen system for her constituents. I commend her work in making sure that she brought as many local voices into this debate as possible, and because if we are to deliver the right support for children, young people and parents the system that they deserve, we must ensure that we listen to a wide range of voices.
So I do thank her for that speech. Mr. Betts, I was pleased to be reappointed as the shadow minister in this role, not least because I can continue to stand up for said families. But I was also pleased that the minister was reappointed to her position. I do genuinely mean this, that I will work with her on any reforms around Pica and given the nature of the condition, but also around sending reforms more broadly. Pica, as has been said, is a condition in which people usually children, routinely ingest non-edible items.
It's often associated with autism spectrum disorder and reportedly affects between 9 and 25% of children with developmental difficulties, including autism. And while children with pica may some non-food items, which are relatively harmless, as we've heard others ingest much more potentially harmful substances, including soil, sand, hair, toothpaste and faeces, and non-food items can pass through the child harmlessly on occasion. But as we've heard, there are significant health risks and it's a risk that no parent is ever willing to take.
And they can cause blockages in the gut infections, choking dental problems, to name but a few. Parents of children with PE can understandably find their behaviour to be distressing, and I often have to go to great lengths to prevent harm to their children locking cupboards, removing potentially harmful items and auditing their home and garden to ensure the child can play safely. And that, of course, will inevitably lead to a sense of isolation not only for the parents but also for for their child.
Not knowing what kind of support is available or unsure how to support them. And for children with Pica, it's often said that they they feel marginalised and secluded at school and in social settings, and there are indications that with the right support and treatment, many children do overcome pica behaviours, but not all. And of course, that's why the training is incredibly important, and getting to the root of that underlying cause is of course really important and in some cases can be transformative.
For some children, pica behaviours may arise from certain nutritional deficiencies, for example. So identifying those factors can be important. But for many, it's not always clear what has happened. And that's why parents and teachers need more awareness and clear, signposted support. Today, parents and carers can benefit from a range of online resources, including the National Pica Advisory Service, which was established in 2023, and I pay tribute to the work of the organisations, including those that are in attendance, which help to provide essential resources and a support network to parents and families, helping them to navigate their child's condition.
I understand that the National Advisory Service is aiming to expand its services so that there's a support hub in every NHS trust, so I'd ask the minister what discussions she may have had, or will be having, to help improve awareness and support for families affected by Pica. And of course, getting the right support in home is important, but also at school as support plans successfully implemented can help safeguard children and support them to move away from pica behaviours.
And as has already been said, that's why the teacher training is incredibly important and I'd ask the minister what conversation she's had with officials about the practical steps that government can take as they do their send reforms to help enhance teacher training in this space as well. Teachers who are trained in Pica are not only better equipped to put in place safety interventions in the classroom, but they're also better placed to identify pica behaviours in the first place. Teachers and school staff are uniquely positioned to notice unusual eating behaviours during school meal times, missing non-food items or in the classroom, or physical symptoms like choking, of course, and stomach pains.
And given the significant safety risks involved in this condition, including choking and poisoning, it is right that we look at the current training offer available for educational staff, and while there are a number of training certificates that teachers in the early years practitioners can obtain, their discretionary nature does mean that they are bound to discrepancies and regional variations, particularly at a time when our schools are being put under significant financial pressures. So I ask the Minister of her assessment of whether what training and the adequacy of that training, especially relating to Pica for teachers, teaching assistants, sencos and school safeguarding leads.
And we know, as has already been said, that the some pica can lead to incredibly heartbreaking situations, such as the case of 19 year old Owen Garnett from the school in Stratford upon Avon, which the honourable member mentioned. Owen's tragic death came days after a near identical miss, which should have provided a wake up call to staff, and the HSE inspector said that it should have triggered remedial action. And while the school was fined, at the heart of this tragedy was a lack of specialised training for staff and a failure to reassess and reinforce preventative strategies.
So I ask the minister if she'll be if she's taking a look at that incident or if she will be, and how what lessons she'll be learning from that as the department undertakes their reforms. And I understand that personalized treatment is often at the heart of successfully helping children with this condition. So I'm interested to hear what consideration has been given to the potential merits of nationally, nationally recognised training and what discussions she's had with officials from the Department of Health around Pica, and especially with the Sen reforms.
It's certainly something I've asked before, and I think it's important that that bridge between health and education is maintained or overcome as the government implements its plans for mainstreaming. Clearly, gaps in the quality of pica awareness training are bound to become more apparent and much more pressing. And so I'd ask the government, what if it will continue to, as it continues to do with its plans to bring send into mainstream settings? How how will they ensure that Pica is taken into account on that? And, of course, how the Minister's Department is working to support a joined up approach between parents, health professionals, schools, specialist organisations in this field, and also to look at schools and how they update their risk management strategies that that should evolve with them.
And it will. Training on Pica form part of the government's support for mainstream teachers as their schools take in more Sen pupils? And how will the funding for pupil diagnosed with Pica follow them throughout their education journey, and will that be adaptable in those Sen reforms? To conclude, today's important debate has highlighted a really important issue and a need to raise awareness and improve support for families affected by Pica. I know just by talking to people, as I was saying, I was going to do this debate, having to explain what Pica was and how it affects so many different aspects of society.
In this case, children with special educational needs. There's a real need to assess training and safeguarding procedures currently developed within schools. Our focus has to be on keeping children safe and ensuring that they have the best chance to thrive, both within the current system and as the government implements its mainstreaming reforms, parents, carers and pupils and teachers will be listening and they deserve clear answers. So I hope the Minister can provide some today.
So I do thank her for that speech. Mr. Betts, I was pleased to be reappointed as the shadow minister in this role, not least because I can continue to stand up for said families. But I was also pleased that the minister was reappointed to her position. I do genuinely mean this, that I will work with her on any reforms around Pica and given the nature of the condition, but also around sending reforms more broadly. Pica, as has been said, is a condition in which people usually children, routinely ingest non-edible items.
It's often associated with autism spectrum disorder and reportedly affects between 9 and 25% of children with developmental difficulties, including autism. And while children with pica may some non-food items, which are relatively harmless, as we've heard others ingest much more potentially harmful substances, including soil, sand, hair, toothpaste and faeces, and non-food items can pass through the child harmlessly on occasion. But as we've heard, there are significant health risks and it's a risk that no parent is ever willing to take.
And they can cause blockages in the gut infections, choking dental problems, to name but a few. Parents of children with PE can understandably find their behaviour to be distressing, and I often have to go to great lengths to prevent harm to their children locking cupboards, removing potentially harmful items and auditing their home and garden to ensure the child can play safely. And that, of course, will inevitably lead to a sense of isolation not only for the parents but also for for their child.
Not knowing what kind of support is available or unsure how to support them. And for children with Pica, it's often said that they they feel marginalised and secluded at school and in social settings, and there are indications that with the right support and treatment, many children do overcome pica behaviours, but not all. And of course, that's why the training is incredibly important, and getting to the root of that underlying cause is of course really important and in some cases can be transformative.
For some children, pica behaviours may arise from certain nutritional deficiencies, for example. So identifying those factors can be important. But for many, it's not always clear what has happened. And that's why parents and teachers need more awareness and clear, signposted support. Today, parents and carers can benefit from a range of online resources, including the National Pica Advisory Service, which was established in 2023, and I pay tribute to the work of the organisations, including those that are in attendance, which help to provide essential resources and a support network to parents and families, helping them to navigate their child's condition.
I understand that the National Advisory Service is aiming to expand its services so that there's a support hub in every NHS trust, so I'd ask the minister what discussions she may have had, or will be having, to help improve awareness and support for families affected by Pica. And of course, getting the right support in home is important, but also at school as support plans successfully implemented can help safeguard children and support them to move away from pica behaviours.
And as has already been said, that's why the teacher training is incredibly important and I'd ask the minister what conversation she's had with officials about the practical steps that government can take as they do their send reforms to help enhance teacher training in this space as well. Teachers who are trained in Pica are not only better equipped to put in place safety interventions in the classroom, but they're also better placed to identify pica behaviours in the first place. Teachers and school staff are uniquely positioned to notice unusual eating behaviours during school meal times, missing non-food items or in the classroom, or physical symptoms like choking, of course, and stomach pains.
And given the significant safety risks involved in this condition, including choking and poisoning, it is right that we look at the current training offer available for educational staff, and while there are a number of training certificates that teachers in the early years practitioners can obtain, their discretionary nature does mean that they are bound to discrepancies and regional variations, particularly at a time when our schools are being put under significant financial pressures. So I ask the Minister of her assessment of whether what training and the adequacy of that training, especially relating to Pica for teachers, teaching assistants, sencos and school safeguarding leads.
And we know, as has already been said, that the some pica can lead to incredibly heartbreaking situations, such as the case of 19 year old Owen Garnett from the school in Stratford upon Avon, which the honourable member mentioned. Owen's tragic death came days after a near identical miss, which should have provided a wake up call to staff, and the HSE inspector said that it should have triggered remedial action. And while the school was fined, at the heart of this tragedy was a lack of specialised training for staff and a failure to reassess and reinforce preventative strategies.
So I ask the minister if she'll be if she's taking a look at that incident or if she will be, and how what lessons she'll be learning from that as the department undertakes their reforms. And I understand that personalized treatment is often at the heart of successfully helping children with this condition. So I'm interested to hear what consideration has been given to the potential merits of nationally, nationally recognised training and what discussions she's had with officials from the Department of Health around Pica, and especially with the Sen reforms.
It's certainly something I've asked before, and I think it's important that that bridge between health and education is maintained or overcome as the government implements its plans for mainstreaming. Clearly, gaps in the quality of pica awareness training are bound to become more apparent and much more pressing. And so I'd ask the government, what if it will continue to, as it continues to do with its plans to bring send into mainstream settings? How how will they ensure that Pica is taken into account on that? And, of course, how the Minister's Department is working to support a joined up approach between parents, health professionals, schools, specialist organisations in this field, and also to look at schools and how they update their risk management strategies that that should evolve with them.
And it will. Training on Pica form part of the government's support for mainstream teachers as their schools take in more Sen pupils? And how will the funding for pupil diagnosed with Pica follow them throughout their education journey, and will that be adaptable in those Sen reforms? To conclude, today's important debate has highlighted a really important issue and a need to raise awareness and improve support for families affected by Pica. I know just by talking to people, as I was saying, I was going to do this debate, having to explain what Pica was and how it affects so many different aspects of society.
In this case, children with special educational needs. There's a real need to assess training and safeguarding procedures currently developed within schools. Our focus has to be on keeping children safe and ensuring that they have the best chance to thrive, both within the current system and as the government implements its mainstreaming reforms, parents, carers and pupils and teachers will be listening and they deserve clear answers. So I hope the Minister can provide some today.
16:57
Speaker 28
-
Speaker 28
Thank you. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, and a huge thank you to my honourable friend, the member for Dagenham and Rainham, for bringing this deeply important discussion to the chamber today. And I think the story you told shows your effectiveness as a local MP. I know you've done a number of different events in the local community to listen to parents to, to listen to professionals to, to school leaders.
And bringing their voices directly to us is much appreciated. And I'm really grateful to the, the parents and the professionals who made the time to, to be here today and to campaign on this issue for your, for your time and your leadership. And one thing I would be very keen to do after this debate is to, to sit down with the the honourable member, my honourable friend, and those those who've been campaigning on it, to discuss this in more detail.
I think we've heard really powerfully today the profound impact Pica can have. The the huge stress that that can bring to parents who are, you know, desperately monitoring their circumstances and worried about the, the safety of their children. As I've been going around the country talking to parents, visiting schools, I have visited schools where they have really brilliant and extraordinary provision and seen young people with Pica who are really thriving. But I've also spoken to parents who, who present some of the the stories we've heard today where they feel that that support is not in place and the fear that that that leaves them with.
And sometimes they've had to give up work. And in order to provide that, that support for, for their children. And, you know, the, the tragic case cases that we've heard and referred to today just show how important this is as an issue. I think this comes to the heart of the relationship between special educational needs and health and the it was mentioned by, I think everyone who spoke, the, the, the, the importance of us working in partnership, having real clarity about the role of, of teachers to support and safeguard pupils, but also the role of health professionals to diagnose and to, to, to give advice and, and, and guidance.
And I think the honourable member from Doncaster talked about the importance of, of that that guidance and the importance of the roles and responsibilities between between health and schools. Earlier this year, we consulted on revised statutory guidance on supporting children and young people with medical conditions, reflecting our commitment that every child or young person can participate effectively in education , notwithstanding their medical conditions. Schools and colleges and early years settings should understand the risks which a medical condition poses and manage them proactively, which includes ensuring staff understand the relevant medical conditions and their impact and can recognise and respond to an emergency.
We had a really positive response to that consultation. We're still working through those, those responses, but we also had a lot of detailed feedback, including on specific medical conditions, and the draft guidance didn't make reference to Pica. And given the the the conversations we've had, the, the, the people that respond to the consultation, the discussion today, I can confirm that we'll be rectifying that in when we finally do publish that, that guidance, providing that that clear information and guidance around Pica for, for, for, for schools.
The other kind of area that I just wanted to reflect on is as part of the Send reforms, we're looking at developing national inclusion standards that will be provide a kind of baseline of ordinarily available provision that we expect of all schools. And we're also we have an expert panel working on the national inclusion standards, but also working on specialist provision packages, which are which will kind of determine the kind of support in an area needed for a range of different special educational needs and disabilities.
So we've currently got an independent panel that sits across health and education, who will be, who will be, who are leading on this work. And I can commit today to asking them to, to take a specific look at the issues that my honourable friend has raised in relation to Pica, the research and identifying any gaps in support more. More broadly, there were a number of questions about the Send reforms and how we support early intervention, how we ensure that the right training is in place, how we ensure that we have the right professionals in our schools.
So as part of the Send reforms, we're investing 4 billion into early intervention. That includes 1.6 billion that is going directly into mainstream schools. And all schools are being asked to develop inclusion strategies. We were putting 1.8 billion into an Experts at Hand service, which includes occupational therapists, educational psychologists, specialist teachers. And I had a brief conversation with somebody who's an occupational therapist who specializes in pica just outside of, of, of this chamber and talking about their critical role and something that's also, I think, really important to reflect on as part of that, that expert hands service.
And we're also developing a new package of teacher training. We're putting 200 million into that teacher training. The kind of purpose of that teacher training is to support all schools, to be able to to be inclusive, to identify needs to, to, to be able to adapt classroom practice, to support children. It isn't detailed training on lots of specific conditions, but on how to provide that, that wider support adaption for pupils. But, but we should also give them the tools and strategies to find out the relevant information around a specific issues as they occur in the classroom.
But we're very much working at the moment with parents, disabled children's organisations, teaching organisations about developing that training. And so really welcome thoughts from members about that process. And one of the things that I think was the has been mentioned by, by many is the importance of that around engaging with parents. And that will be one of the components of that training, really, how to make sure we're listening to the voices of parents and that we have those strong relationships.
So schools are picking up that what is happening at home and able to to put that into the plans that they're putting in place, of course. Yeah.
And bringing their voices directly to us is much appreciated. And I'm really grateful to the, the parents and the professionals who made the time to, to be here today and to campaign on this issue for your, for your time and your leadership. And one thing I would be very keen to do after this debate is to, to sit down with the the honourable member, my honourable friend, and those those who've been campaigning on it, to discuss this in more detail.
I think we've heard really powerfully today the profound impact Pica can have. The the huge stress that that can bring to parents who are, you know, desperately monitoring their circumstances and worried about the, the safety of their children. As I've been going around the country talking to parents, visiting schools, I have visited schools where they have really brilliant and extraordinary provision and seen young people with Pica who are really thriving. But I've also spoken to parents who, who present some of the the stories we've heard today where they feel that that support is not in place and the fear that that that leaves them with.
And sometimes they've had to give up work. And in order to provide that, that support for, for their children. And, you know, the, the tragic case cases that we've heard and referred to today just show how important this is as an issue. I think this comes to the heart of the relationship between special educational needs and health and the it was mentioned by, I think everyone who spoke, the, the, the, the importance of us working in partnership, having real clarity about the role of, of teachers to support and safeguard pupils, but also the role of health professionals to diagnose and to, to, to give advice and, and, and guidance.
And I think the honourable member from Doncaster talked about the importance of, of that that guidance and the importance of the roles and responsibilities between between health and schools. Earlier this year, we consulted on revised statutory guidance on supporting children and young people with medical conditions, reflecting our commitment that every child or young person can participate effectively in education , notwithstanding their medical conditions. Schools and colleges and early years settings should understand the risks which a medical condition poses and manage them proactively, which includes ensuring staff understand the relevant medical conditions and their impact and can recognise and respond to an emergency.
We had a really positive response to that consultation. We're still working through those, those responses, but we also had a lot of detailed feedback, including on specific medical conditions, and the draft guidance didn't make reference to Pica. And given the the the conversations we've had, the, the, the people that respond to the consultation, the discussion today, I can confirm that we'll be rectifying that in when we finally do publish that, that guidance, providing that that clear information and guidance around Pica for, for, for, for schools.
The other kind of area that I just wanted to reflect on is as part of the Send reforms, we're looking at developing national inclusion standards that will be provide a kind of baseline of ordinarily available provision that we expect of all schools. And we're also we have an expert panel working on the national inclusion standards, but also working on specialist provision packages, which are which will kind of determine the kind of support in an area needed for a range of different special educational needs and disabilities.
So we've currently got an independent panel that sits across health and education, who will be, who will be, who are leading on this work. And I can commit today to asking them to, to take a specific look at the issues that my honourable friend has raised in relation to Pica, the research and identifying any gaps in support more. More broadly, there were a number of questions about the Send reforms and how we support early intervention, how we ensure that the right training is in place, how we ensure that we have the right professionals in our schools.
So as part of the Send reforms, we're investing 4 billion into early intervention. That includes 1.6 billion that is going directly into mainstream schools. And all schools are being asked to develop inclusion strategies. We were putting 1.8 billion into an Experts at Hand service, which includes occupational therapists, educational psychologists, specialist teachers. And I had a brief conversation with somebody who's an occupational therapist who specializes in pica just outside of, of, of this chamber and talking about their critical role and something that's also, I think, really important to reflect on as part of that, that expert hands service.
And we're also developing a new package of teacher training. We're putting 200 million into that teacher training. The kind of purpose of that teacher training is to support all schools, to be able to to be inclusive, to identify needs to, to, to be able to adapt classroom practice, to support children. It isn't detailed training on lots of specific conditions, but on how to provide that, that wider support adaption for pupils. But, but we should also give them the tools and strategies to find out the relevant information around a specific issues as they occur in the classroom.
But we're very much working at the moment with parents, disabled children's organisations, teaching organisations about developing that training. And so really welcome thoughts from members about that process. And one of the things that I think was the has been mentioned by, by many is the importance of that around engaging with parents. And that will be one of the components of that training, really, how to make sure we're listening to the voices of parents and that we have those strong relationships.
So schools are picking up that what is happening at home and able to to put that into the plans that they're putting in place, of course. Yeah.
17:04
17:04
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
way. And I also thank her for all of the the work that's been done behind the scenes prior to today to give some commitments, which I think is absolutely phenomenal. And you can see in the gallery the impact that's having on people and how much that's welcomed just in terms of sustainability, in thinking about the future. I'm a very head and hearts person, took a lot from the heart, but in terms of head, in order to continue funding and support and resource things like peak in the future, you need the awareness first.
So then you can start to understand the numbers. In order to understand the numbers, we need to record those. I just wonder if there's any thought that could just go into. I realize you can't answer right now, but just some thought into making sure that we do record the number of people that have Pica so that we can actually use that in future business cases to consider future funding as well.
So then you can start to understand the numbers. In order to understand the numbers, we need to record those. I just wonder if there's any thought that could just go into. I realize you can't answer right now, but just some thought into making sure that we do record the number of people that have Pica so that we can actually use that in future business cases to consider future funding as well.
17:04
17:04
Speaker 28
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Speaker 28
Absolutely. Take that away. On the issue of of reporting, I also wanted to, to, to, to reference the, the need to invest in inclusive spaces. And again, I think this was mentioned. And one of our, one of our commitments is to, to, or continuing to invest 3.7 billion into creating new specialist places. Now that money can go into new special schools, or it can go into inclusion bases or adaptions in mainstream schools.
And I know when I visited really high quality inclusion bases that, you know, part of that investment has been about creating safe spaces for children with with Pica. And we've also issued new guidance on for our estates around how you create a stakeholder inclusive by design, which also includes, you know, guidance for schools about how to work with with children and understand their experience of a school and make sure that that schools are genuinely inclusive for those young people.
So that was a, I think another area that was, was really relevant to, to the conversation. There was a, there was a the honourable member from from South Dorset made the point. Oh my God, that's Lloyd Hathorne. I'm so sorry. Made the really important, important point about the accountability across our systems, working in partnership and ensuring that that we are working really closely with health. And this is something we're continuing to, to work really closely with, with health ministers on and really recognise how critical that is.
They they also made the point about experts at hand and workforce. And we are investing 40 million into training up new editor sites and speech and language therapists. And there's a lot of work going on with health colleagues around that workforce planning and ensuring that we do have sufficient workforce to support experts at hand, but also to to support specialist settings, because it is really critical that we have that, that specialist resource to, to deliver the early intervention.
There was a there was a question about the funding and how that would work in the new system. So it's envisioned that for children who have individual support plans, schools would get dedicated funding that's ring fenced for pupils with send in order to to employ the necessary staff and and put in the right support for, for those children at the moment that that funding can often come quite late in the day after a huge battle for support and, you know, leave with the child.
And the idea is to, to try and give kind of sustained budgets to schools so they can really build the necessary provision. But for pupils that access specialist provision package that that would be funding that would directly be kind of come with that package into the school and that child. So depending on where they sat in the system, the funding, the funding would flow differently. And I just I think this is a, you know, the tone of this debate was one, I think of, of real cross-party recognition of the scale of the issue.
I really welcome the way that members across the House are working together to address these really difficult questions. I've heard so many stories of families that have been badly let down, and I know that that we all acknowledge, and I think everyone has, that. Things need to change. We need to get it right. And I'm really committed to continuing to work in partnership with, with, with all members. And I really appreciate them bringing, you know, stories like the ones we've had today to, to myself.
And so we can continue these really important conversations and most critically talking to, to young people and families. So I really hope this is just the start of a conversation and we'll get a longer conversation soon to, to look at the issues that have been raised today. Thank you.
And I know when I visited really high quality inclusion bases that, you know, part of that investment has been about creating safe spaces for children with with Pica. And we've also issued new guidance on for our estates around how you create a stakeholder inclusive by design, which also includes, you know, guidance for schools about how to work with with children and understand their experience of a school and make sure that that schools are genuinely inclusive for those young people.
So that was a, I think another area that was, was really relevant to, to the conversation. There was a, there was a the honourable member from from South Dorset made the point. Oh my God, that's Lloyd Hathorne. I'm so sorry. Made the really important, important point about the accountability across our systems, working in partnership and ensuring that that we are working really closely with health. And this is something we're continuing to, to work really closely with, with health ministers on and really recognise how critical that is.
They they also made the point about experts at hand and workforce. And we are investing 40 million into training up new editor sites and speech and language therapists. And there's a lot of work going on with health colleagues around that workforce planning and ensuring that we do have sufficient workforce to support experts at hand, but also to to support specialist settings, because it is really critical that we have that, that specialist resource to, to deliver the early intervention.
There was a there was a question about the funding and how that would work in the new system. So it's envisioned that for children who have individual support plans, schools would get dedicated funding that's ring fenced for pupils with send in order to to employ the necessary staff and and put in the right support for, for those children at the moment that that funding can often come quite late in the day after a huge battle for support and, you know, leave with the child.
And the idea is to, to try and give kind of sustained budgets to schools so they can really build the necessary provision. But for pupils that access specialist provision package that that would be funding that would directly be kind of come with that package into the school and that child. So depending on where they sat in the system, the funding, the funding would flow differently. And I just I think this is a, you know, the tone of this debate was one, I think of, of real cross-party recognition of the scale of the issue.
I really welcome the way that members across the House are working together to address these really difficult questions. I've heard so many stories of families that have been badly let down, and I know that that we all acknowledge, and I think everyone has, that. Things need to change. We need to get it right. And I'm really committed to continuing to work in partnership with, with, with all members. And I really appreciate them bringing, you know, stories like the ones we've had today to, to myself.
And so we can continue these really important conversations and most critically talking to, to young people and families. So I really hope this is just the start of a conversation and we'll get a longer conversation soon to, to look at the issues that have been raised today. Thank you.
17:09
17:09
17:09
17:09
Speaker 25
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Speaker 25
Say thank you. I agree with with the Right Honourable Minister that it has been a very good cross-party discussion, very thoughtful kind of input from from everybody. I also know as well from from the minister. Her door is always open and she's she's always there if there's anything you need. So I know with what she's committed to today and what she's actually spoken about, you know, that that that is good news for my constituents.
And I, I, I feel under your chairmanship that this debate today is Parliament at its best, where an issue, an issue that is very important to many constituents across the country has been debated, has been highlighted, and the work goes on. Thank you . Is this.
And I, I, I feel under your chairmanship that this debate today is Parliament at its best, where an issue, an issue that is very important to many constituents across the country has been debated, has been highlighted, and the work goes on. Thank you . Is this.