Environmental Audit Committee

Monday 15th June 2026

(began 5 hours, 34 minutes ago)

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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Well, welcome, everybody, to the latest meeting of the Environmental Audit Committee. And this is a follow up meeting, um, to the report that this committee did on Carbon Budget seven and more recently, the response that we've had from the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero. We're very pleased to have with us today, Mr. Katie White, the Minister for climate, uh, and Mr. McLaughlin from from the Department. Um. Firstly, welcome, uh, secondly, um, questions that this committee raise will be to yourself, Minister, if there's any of those you think are more appropriately answered by Mr.

McLaughlin, we'll leave that to you. Um to, to pass on um if there are questions that we consider to be more political than departmental, I'm sure it's unlikely you would have passed those on anyway, but we would say um but beyond that we will leave it to you to decide, uh, who's most appropriate to answer. Um, we're grateful to the department for their involvement of this committee in, in carbon budget seven process. Um, also grateful for the far greater scrutiny that this process will go through, um, than previous iterations have done.

So, uh, that is very much welcome. And, uh, and the fact that we were able to get you here at relatively short notice to, to respond, um, there's a number of, uh, things that were raised within our report that government have subsequently responded to. Um, and, uh, some questions that we felt we didn't entirely understand where the department was. So we'll go through those as we are. But there's one area that I will just start on in advance of that, because it appears to be slightly shifting sands in terms of where we thought the land lay.

Uh, and briefings are suggesting might change. And that's the issue of the government's zero emissions vehicles mandate. Um, it's been reported, um, this week or this weekend that the government is considering, uh, changing the Zev mandate as we know that the industry is on target with, uh, government's, um, request. Tests of it in the period up to 2025. And as, um, reducing emissions from vehicles is the government's single biggest carbon saving measure. We are, um, very interested in what implications any changes might have for the delivery of carbon budget.

Seven. So I mean what can you tell us at this stage, Minister, about um whether there are plans to alter what we'd previously understood to be the government's position on, on the mandate?
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Yeah, I can't I can't do Minister. So the the carbon budget seven target obviously builds on the carbon budget. Six target and the carbon Budget Growth and delivery plan that we published in October sets out the policies we, uh, we see today because it's obviously a snapshot, as you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, things will change. It's a snapshot of how we will achieve carbon budget six. That gets you to 84% reductions in the CB seven period. So it gets you a long way of the way there.

So you can see in that plan that we've got policies that are well developed and policies that are further down the line. Um, we keep really clear track within government of how policies are progressing. And the way I would, I would describe it is, um, as a portfolio of portfolios, because there's multiple major projects that sit beneath that, uh, and each of those policies and portfolios has an SRO assigned to it and has the correct governance upon that. And many of those policies and portfolios will appear in their own right at this committee and other committees for proper scrutiny, then what we do in the net zero side is we pull that all together to see what the picture looks like overall, and we ask the question, how can we help?How can we unblock some of this?What can we do to push that?Uh, and the way that we do that, I chair a meeting of all the SROs across government, and our department that's in Defra and DFT and others.

And it's sort of a small example of where we've, we've identified things that could help is we've noticed challenges with with regulation and engaging with regulators. So we set up across regulator forum. So so we are constantly monitoring delivery risks. But each programme is responsible for their own delivery risk within that.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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To you, Mr. Chairman, you raised a number of points there. So in terms of you're absolutely right that the Committee on Climate Change proposed a a trajectory that was slightly more focused on behaviour change. We've decided, having reflected on that, that we would try a different route that would make it easier for consumers and less reliant on them to make those differences. Now, it may be that some of those behaviour changes happen because for other reasons, it may be people for health reasons decide they want to have more of a plant based diet because of the co-benefits, but we are not going to force anybody to make those changes.

We're trying to focus on making it cheaper and easier to do the right thing, and that's a choice that we've decided to make. You raise another an array of other points. Let me try and work through them. So in terms of, um, competing demand, um, I think you'll agree that our Secretary of State has, has, has been ferocious at working through the system since he came in, since we came in, in July 2024 and making sure that we have and this goes on to your second point around network capacity, but slightly adjacent in terms of, you know, making sure that we're going through that grid queue, we've reordered the grid queue to make sure that we are actually the projects that are coming forward are real projects, not zombie projects or speculative projects.

Um, to make sure we're working through to try and figure out what, because quite often some of these figures are put out and actually in reality, they're not quite as big as, as what is sometimes speculated. Um, so we have been, uh, you know, with the Clean Power 30 mission, we've been working through that systematically in terms of making sure we have that in terms of the grid capacity. You're absolutely right. That's a key area where we've been looking for a investment, but B, how can we look at optimising?And I'm sure as we'll come on to talk about AI, that could be an area that's helpful.

And the more we have electric vehicles and we have the grid to vehicles ability in terms of batteries, that again can be helpful in terms of managing that grid infrastructure. You talked about sustainable food stocks and and land. And I think it's been really good that, um Defra introduced the land use framework because, you know, you're, you're right. And you're, you've got a huge experience on this, that in the longer term, land will become more valuable and we need to be careful and choiceful about how we use that land most effectively.

And it may, you know, at the moment we are using that, you know, we need to make sure we're food biomass, you know, um, at the same time as carbon reduction, nature, biodiversity, and, and for housebuilding, we want to make sure we're doing that. So I think having that land use plan will help us to do that. I think some of the choices we've made around biomass and, I know my colleagues are very interested in this, are around shorter term. And in that transition.

Um, and as other technological solutions come forward, we hope that pressures on some of those land demands will reduce. But that's those are around longer term choices. You talked about data centres. Um, again, I think there is a, there's a, there's a lot of excitement around this industry. And I think that's a great, you know, it's a growth opportunity for us. We also are keen to look at the ability of AI to reduce our energy needs and demands and how we can use it most effectively to to be our tailwind and not our headwind on this and how we can use that siting of some of those data centres where we have excessive, um, electricity production and how we can get it to work with our system as it is today.

So I hope that gives you a canter through. I don't know if there's anything I missed there.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Do you want to?
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Thank you. Manuela.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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I mean, we.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Have a scrutiny.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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For sure.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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We're not sure.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Mhm.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Look, um, I'm a reasonable man. Well, some people think I'm a reasonable man. Some people don't. I'm not I don't accept that as an answer because it's not an answer. Um, but what I, I don't expect a full answer to it now, but what I would like you to do is to go away and, and say how you actually then write to us and say how you marry up what the C.c.c. have advised. With the construction of Corsia and with what you've already put in as the the element that's going to be taken up by this, which is ten megatons.

Okay. So and I'm. Just for you to write to us and, and try and square that circle. But at the moment I can't see how you do it. Okay. Um, can I talk about the economic modelling that goes with the draft CB seven order?Um. The seven carbon budget uses fuel prices from 24 and OBR fiscal projections from 25. Mhm. Um we we've just had um well last night we, we, we think a bump in the road might be sorted out.

Who knows. Um, but the department obviously must be considering the effect of energy prices and supply chains. Um from that conflict in the Middle East, whether it goes on, whether it doesn't go on. Um, so gently. Can I put it to you?Not that you are projections are already out of date given what's happened, but the central estimates of both climate damage and net zero transition are sensitive to those assumptions. And I'd like to know how you're balancing them and how you're operating.

The the way in which you're approaching the budget, given the situation.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Oh, no.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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As soon as possible.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Minister. Um, so.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Um, I don't think there's anything I disagreed with the premise of of what you were saying. I mean, in terms of you're absolutely right that there is a certain amount of. In behaviour. There's behaviour change in terms of the electrification of EVs and homes, etc. is, is a shift. But when we talk about behaviour change in this context, we're talking about the sort of harder, the more challenging behaviour change elements, which usually are focused around diet, etc.. So you're absolutely right that there has been a shift, I think, um, in terms of electrification, let's just talk about EVs for a second because they're obviously, um, we've had not at least because of the, I think because of the impact of the Middle East crisis and are now price and cost efficiencies.

Um, we've had the best march and the best may of EV sales ever. You know, we've had now to say that to run a electric vehicle, be half the price of running a petrol vehicle. And there is, but also I think that is in part because of the price, but also because the charging infrastructure has just changed entirely. I've been electric vehicle driver for six years. When you started out, it was pretty horrendous and you were having to, you know, give you inside leg measurement every time you you tried to sign up to each different thing.

Now you just tap and go on every single one. Um, so there's now 118,000 charging points, which is there's more public charging points than petrol points within the UK. So I think actually the shift has been is in terms of electric vehicles is going really well, um in part. For some of the policy measures that we have introduced, like the charging points, um, and the £3,750 that you can get off your vehicles, but in part because the economics are now stacking up because of external factors as well.

So we are keeping this constantly under review all of the time of how many sales are doing it and making sure that, that we are on track to deliver that. And that is the point of the budget that we have to make sure at all times we're keeping on track. So, um, we think we've taken the central route that is, is ambitious, but not overly ambitious, is realistic, but isn't. But we constantly keep this under review all the time. Um, it's something I'm always in touch with officials around.

How are we delivering on each of these elements and to make sure whether there is tweaks, um, to do that. And we work with industry and with stakeholders to deliver on that.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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So obviously there's multiple layers to the the requirements that you're talking about, whether it's around an offshore wind turbine, whether it's about an interconnector, whether it's around a pylon, whether it's around a charging point, you know, whether it's around within our homes. And so there's different. And when so when Ryan talks about portfolios or portfolios, there's different elements of that that we could comment on and say how each one of those elements is doing. Look, I think it's really important that we bring people with us on this journey.

Um, we do need to invest within our electricity and energy infrastructure. I don't think there is an option of no investment. I think sometimes people are sort of make out this is there is an option where there is, you know, they compare it to we will do nothing. And I don't think that's an option. We have a, you know, a grid infrastructure that doesn't meet the demand that we have at the moment. And we have the options are that we either have a fossil fuel based system going forward, or renewables and clean energy based system going forward.

We've chosen the latter. Um, we do want to look at how we do grid optimization and whether that's vehicle to grid, you know, options and whether AI can help us in terms of that. But there is a certain amount of infrastructure. You're right. We do need to work with communities to make sure that they're supportive and looking at those options. That's why we've looked at community energy and community benefit. Um, but it is around working with communities to look at what those options, you know, how the role they're playing and making sure that they understand the role and how we support them in that transition.

Is there anything you want to add?
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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I think I know where the member is coming to look. Are we doing enough?I think look, we could point to all the things that we have done since we've come into office. Um, and I think in terms of community benefit community, you know, we've got the GB energy community ownership models, we are looking at various different ways and a lot of that has been informed by talking to parliamentarians who on the ground have had an excellent role, including yourself, to say, you know, how communities would support it and how we could make amendments to doing that.

Is there more?I'm sure there is always more to do. And we're always looking at, you know, where those opportunities are. Um, we're currently looking at where the distributional impacts are of we always look at the distributional impacts of our policies, but where there are distribution impacts, for instance, at the moment, if you've got home charging and I will come on to solar, which I think is probably there, but in terms of EVs, obviously it's a lot cheaper. If you have a driveway and you can get some of these overnight charging rates.

And so we're currently looking at things like that to make sure that there is a fairness to this. And we are looking at those opportunities across the board. Um, you're absolutely right. There is some clustering and it's interesting and helpful to hear in terms of hosting infrastructure. And I had an excellent conversation with, um, Lord Dibden, who is, you know, chair and former chair of the Committee on Climate Change, who is himself, I believe, a host of a solar farm and is, is quite, um, strong.

On his, um, you know, uh, defence of that, it's a temporary infrastructure, um, you know, and Tom Bradshaw, chair of the NFU, has talked about it being able to diversify. At the same time, we need to make sure that that is on, you know, that we're thinking about the land use plan that we discussed before. And you're right where we look at clustering, it is something that we need to look at to make sure that there is, you know, it's looking at where there's 1% of land.

But how that is, is something that we, you know, will, will take into account.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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It is.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Thanks. Sarah Gibson.
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None Portrait Speaker 8
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Thank you very much.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Um, so look, I absolutely agree that local authorities are key to this, you know, and we've got some excellent local authorities, um, who are leading the way on this and pioneering, um, we in Disney's and I chair a group on the local net zero delivery group. I'm looking forward to meeting them in the next week or two. It's a cross-party group of excellent, uh, council leaders who, who give me invaluable advice in terms of what's actually happening on the ground. Um, you'll know that this government has had a settlement for councils, which is way above what was in the previous government and has that long term settlement agreement.

Um, the, uh, local, um there has been. A recommendation which we will be talking through around at the local net zero delivery group around whether there should be targets on that. I'm open to discussions, but to be honest, I don't think I think it's around for each council leader to decide what the most effective way to do that, because we're all sat in different parts of the country, whether that's urban, whether that's rural, and therefore the needs will be different to do that. So I absolutely think, uh, they are key to that.

Um, and I'm working with all parties to deliver to decide what the best way of supporting them in doing that. But I think we don't want to, uh, have onerous targets if they are not going to be helpful in terms of doing that or hypoxic hypothesis. Hypothecation. Sorry, I was a tongue twister for this afternoon.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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So look there. Is no safety concerns. And it is the responsibility of parliamentarians across the board to be really clear about this, because these are incredibly safe technologies that are being used across the world and across our country, and we should be really clear about that. I think, look, there is and we've talked about, um, support amongst the public. There is definitely some people that want to politicize part of this agenda and talk about, um, you know, what are the logos or what are the commitments or etc.

but at the same time, they're very keen to keep the investment and the jobs that are attached to this low carbon transition. And I've seen this in, in Hull, for instance, where, you know, they don't want the climate emergency, but they definitely want the jobs and the investment. Um, to be honest. I want to move forward with those jobs and investment and, and I don't want to get into lots of debates around, um, you know, what logos are on. I think that's sort of a waste of everybody's time.

I think people who peddle this, you know, nonsense are almost backpedaling Britain. And I think we should be looking at what those opportunities are and the carbon budgets, you know, introduce support was an idea of the conservative government, you know, introduced by a Labour government, but delivered for the last few budgets by the conservative government, has been a cross-party consensus that has delivered that long term investment, which is now which is crucial to our communities and jobs. And the CBI had a report out only in the last couple of weeks, saying we now had about a million jobs attached to the low carbon transition.

So I think let's focus on on that. And in the longer term, um, how we can deliver on that for our constituents.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Julia Buckley.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Thank you. Manuela.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Look, I think to these different examples that have been raised by committee members, I would I would gently suggest to council colleagues, you know, that when we are in an environment where, you know, we are having heat waves, increased flooding, and we're seeing these impacts across the country, there isn't anyone now who's denying, I believe, that climate change is happening. And so if that is the case, then what is your response to that?And if you are a responsible person in in a position of leadership, then surely there is a response to that.

And therefore, what is your action plan?Um, we as central government will, you know, support in any way we can. Um, but obviously local leaders and council leaders are best placed to deliver on a lot of these opportunities. And we don't want to have some communities taking advantage and other communities missing out on those opportunities. Because, you know, as we've talked a number of times in this committee around, electrification is a real opportunity. And and I'll be honest, the thing that really worries me right now is how do we protect our.

We know that energy prices are likely to continue to rise. Hopefully there is a deal that is is made on the international. But it looks likely that energy prices will rise. How do we protect consumers to do that?So I would imagine of all political parties, that seems to me the common sense approach is how do we protect people from doing that?Um, as I say, councils have a key role in delivering, um, whether it's around the infrastructure, whether it's around social housing, whether it's around working with us on, um, schools and, you know, and GB retrofitting infrastructure, they have a key role of doing that.

So I would love them to be part of the solution. Um, and to give us, you know, those tailwinds because, uh, in order that we could work together to deliver. And again, I'm very happy to have constructive feedback of where the challenges are or where communities are not happy with it. But I think in terms of, for, for prices for energy security and for future generations, we have to have a clear plan, um, around clean energy and nature, positive climate future.
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None Portrait Speaker 9
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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I would, yeah.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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There's quite a lot there. But in terms of, look, I think, you know, people can hold the sense that they would like to have a low carbon, secure, cheaper energy future at the same time as when it comes to, you know, there are behaviour change measures. You talk about aviation, where people would still like to go on holiday and fly, but they would like to have a low carbon future. And so I think it's for us to sit back and think, where can we make those shifts where it is easier and within our constituents interests most effectively?We've talked a lot about electrification, where actually it's an upgraded experience for you to have an electric vehicle, to have solar panels like Ryan has, you know, in terms of his bills are coming down.

I actually was, uh, door knocking the other day in a constituency, not mine. Um, and, uh, uh, there was a gentleman who had, uh, was, was complaining he had had energy debt of £1,000, had had some solar panels fitted and managed to bring that down to £170. So in terms of actually giving, uh, constituents the opportunity to take back control of their energy and actually reduce some of those prices, of course, each of these things, we, we blow these up into different moments, but in terms of, we can go through each of those moments, we want to make it as cheap and as easy for, uh, each of our constituents to come along on the journey with us.

And each, we also want to make sure that people have an upgraded and fulfilling life. And those are choices. And we've tried to navigate that in the most practical and sensible way that we can.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 10
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Um. Well, um.
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None Portrait Speaker 10
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I'm sorry.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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So I think you're absolutely right to raise the eco for, um, I think we've got to be honest. And that was what we did with eco four. We said this isn't working. It's been a failure and we're going to stop it now and we're going to shut it and we're going to go through. So I think actually being honest when things aren't working is really important to do that. Um, I think you might look, we are, um, trying to make choices, but also, as you say, there isn't, there's no perfect way of doing this.

And we don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good in terms of moving forward to do that. Um, uh, I confess, I think, I think I know what you mean by the fabric first, but in terms of right, thinking about that integrated system and moving forward to doing that. And, and part of this as well has been making sure we've got the right people to, to do that. And I remember asking for a heat pump six years ago, and it was so hard to find someone and now they're overwhelmed with business.

But how to make sure people can look at a dwelling in its entirety?Um, and that expertise is, is improving over time. So I think we need to be, honest and we need to learn all the time from our, if there has been mistakes, but also be clear about what those opportunities are and when things are working. And if there are myths, we work together to try and dispel those myths. You know, in terms of because, you know, I got asked, can you have a hot bath in terms of a heat pump, you can have a hot bath in terms of a heat pump.

But what are those myths in terms of that are stopping people making that shift forward?And then when they have shifted as well, it's around the people who are, uh, who are into the new dwelling or new opportunities being clear about that because, you know, it's often when you've seen your neighbor or your friend and you've heard or you've been in an electric vehicle, or you've been in a home. And actually, I remember being in Leeds heat, but Leeds Pipes, where they have a heat network and they gave me a presentation.

It was a very long presentation. And at the end they had a lady of a certain age who just said, do you know what?I can have my bath and it's warmer. And I was like, she's going to sell it to you in much more of a way than the sadly, the corporates were going to do for hours and hours with lots of figures. So I think it's really important as well that we are, um, we've all got a role to play in terms of explaining when things do work and when they don't work, I think is for government, everybody to be honest about what's what hasn't worked and what we're going to learn from that transition.
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This debate has concluded
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