Numeracy for Life Committee

Thursday 11th June 2026

(began 8 hours, 45 minutes ago)

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10:53
10:54
None Portrait Speaker 2
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Yeah. Well, good morning and thank you for the opportunity. And I'm certain that the the rest of the team can, um, can. Give some perspective on this is just specifically to, to, to ground where skills England fits. I mean obviously skills England role is predominantly about matching the workforce needs to employer demand and making sure that those are reflected within the skills system. So you know, it's very occupational based. It's based on clearly skills and evidence that employers provide.

Um, so in that role, as previously housed as an arm's length body from DfE were now within the DWP family, um, although still have a. Joint a minister, Jacqui Smith who's uh. Who straddles both the departments. In that case, as our sponsoring minister. But, you know, in that role, we're responsible for the occupational standards, which are the the bedrock of how, um, apprenticeships and other qualifications, um, are built. Um, also the, the education, the apprenticeship and technical education infrastructure, um and workforce planning and so on.

So, so skills England doesn't own the curriculum delivery per se, but obviously the team here can talk through some of the specific things, including programmes such as you referred to. But our role is really to ensure that the employer need is reflected in that. And that's a moving target, shall we say. It's something that's important that we get some stability in. But we recognise in a very volatile world that that's evolving at all times. And so we continually are engaging with employers and the system, um, to understand where that fits.

And obviously numeracy as part of those particular standards. Um, we can go on to talk about in a later stage, but, but basically we have that particular position. And then of course we've got representatives here from DWP and from DfE who can talk more about the specifics of the programmes around, um, around education and its delivery. Just to say also that, you know, the adult skills fund, which obviously is responsible for adult skills, is predominantly devolved, you know, some 70% approximately devolved out to the, the strategic authorities and so on.

So although there is oversight and guidance, there's obviously, you know, budgetary ownership in many cases out through those environments. So I'm sure we'll come on to talk more about it, but hopefully that gives a little bit of perspective on where skills England fits. I don't know whether you want the others to, to do a similar positioning. Might be helpful.
10:57
None Portrait Speaker 1
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Yes. Alexandra.
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10:58
None Portrait Speaker 1
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Louise.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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I'm Louise Wright.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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And I am the programme director for the post 16 pathways programme in the DfE. Part of my role, I have responsibility for the qualifications that adults study. And that includes the maths and numeracy qualifications that adults study. Uh, and also I have responsibility for the tailored learning aspect. So that is where we use adult skills fund to make programmes which are specifically designed to meet the needs of an individual. So perhaps they're not yet at the stage where they want to take a qualification.

Uh, it's more about building their confidence or meeting a particular life need. And so colleges and other providers are able to tailor the programme to do that. So that's the two of the main ways in which DfE and DWP then work together to make the system work, so that we have qualification and non-qualification provision, uh, which obviously has the expertise of DfE behind it and which is then funded through the Adult Skills Fund. I'm also responsible for the oversight of introduction of new qualifications such as V levels and level two qualifications.

And there are really good examples already of how we're seeing numeracy built into those qualifications so that learners can resit their English and maths. Uh, and they can also have learning on a V level, for example, which, which then enables them to embed that learning and learn how to apply numeracy in that more sector based, uh, setting, which will probably come on to later. And I'll just hand over to Richard because, uh, Richard can also tell you what we're doing in the 16 to 19 space.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Um.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Can I?
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Yes.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Please.
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11:09
None Portrait Speaker 2
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Yeah. And I think we would, we would, you know, agree that that is the right thing to do. I mean, we, we recognise that learners and particularly whether it be learners or businesses within local environments, will look local first. They'll tend to look there and the sensitivity and the understanding of that local need is very important. And in fact, there's a process which is in its second round now of the so-called local skills improvement plans, which skills England. Um with the departments have been very strongly part of defining the structure for.

But as you might know, you know, I recognise from the name those are about what are the local skills that are needed for that particular area. And so, um, all around the country, those are in their second phase. Um, and I think the early evidence seems that they're much more holistic than they maybe were in the first phase, you know, one of the dangers you have in development is, of course, people tend to want to tell you all about how great they are. And secondly, once you get over that, it's about, okay, what's the reality of what you can actually deliver, which is aligned to the structures that Alex just outlined, but also to the aspirations of the of the nation.

And I think the local skills improvement plans aligned to other sources of, of input, including the industrial strategy and the jobs plans and so on, are a crucial part of us putting together the matrix. But the point being that in the local environment that is understood well can be maybe more agile in a sense than than can be if it's nationwide. And I think, you know, the evidence where it's worked well has been really good. And as Alex said, you know, I think with the oversight from the departments and the accountability, that balance seems to be working.

And it's something that we, you know, we're obviously all committed to, to make sure that, you know, people get access to, to those resources locally.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Lady bull.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Yeah. I mean the weather there's what you might describe as a you know a straightforward numeracy strategy. I'll leave others to opine on because in my perspective, what we are looking at is saying for the and you know, Alex alluded to this in her remarks about the move of skills England or skills generally into DWP, which is how we align the skills that people need for the life that they're going to have for the jobs that they may undertake and for the effect that has on both the individual and the economy.

And I think as a result of that, um, you know, if you look at it has been described already the importance of those within the, um standards. Such as GCSEs. But the same is true in the, the technical education qualifications as well, which is that, um, you know, we obviously try to identify within their um the, the requirement for numeracy because those, the occupational standards which underpin those define the knowledge, skills and behaviours that are needed for the successful execution of a particular job or a particular, um, you know, career path and therefore that consistency is something that we have built into not only apprenticeships, but other occupational certificates, foundation certificates, T levels, upcoming V levels and so on.

So in other words, um the and of course in some occupations there's a much higher need for um for numeracy or specific maths skills. Um than others. So I think the strategy as far as I would see it from a skills England viewpoint is to say that we want to make sure that we are embedding the right knowledge, skills and behaviours into people's um. Education and qualifications such that they're able to align very strongly to the labour market and where it grows. And in my role in the Industrial Strategy Council, which I sit on, as you'll have seen from the um recent Skills England report of identified over the next ten years, there's about 1.8 million jobs, new jobs required in the priority sectors.

And in those priority sectors. The system is not going to fulfil that. So we need to make sure that in organically. So we need to make sure that we're moving people into those priority sectors. And hence the underpinning within the occupational standards of the importance of those is extremely important. So so I think there is a um economy capability here. Um, if you, you know, without necessarily having to call it, we've got a strategy to heavily intervene and in a sense in skills England, we're less attracted to saying, you know, you've got to have a, I maths GCSE as opposed to saying you've got the qualifications within here that are relevant to the occupations and the capabilities you need.

So that's sort of the perspective we take on it. But at me.
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None Portrait Speaker 9
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Yeah. Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Does that just.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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That's a very good point. And I think one of the things that's, um, that seems so one of the other pieces of work that skills England have recently published is what's called the standard skills classification. So this is probably, I'm not sure it's the first time you guys have been in this business longer than me, but it's been a long time since we've had a standard classification of skills that are required by individuals in the workforce. And within there there's 13 skills which are identified or articulated as, um, as transferable skills or, you know, common skills if you with them and they're obvious things, as we've just said, like numeracy, literacy and digital, in fact, in this era.

Um, and I think one of the advantages of that standard skills classification is it gives a common taxonomy for providers, individuals, employers to start talking about the same thing because that is something that's been in my career. I used to run Cisco in the UK and Ireland. I know we talked to the, the armed forces quite a lot about how we could get people from the armed forces. Quite often their description of a job, a driver was very different than our description of a driver, because actually they may a logistics expert.

And so giving the common taxonomy to be able to talk about skills in a common way is extremely powerful. And as a result of that, also articulated through both the industrial strategy and the post 16 white paper, we are in Skills England, working with the departments on the principle of skills. Passporting so how can we, particularly for young. Well, for everyone, but you know, you can see the challenge with young people who want to enter the market where they feel the skills, they have skills, but they're not able to articulate those in a particular way.

So we're looking at vehicles to dovetail into some that are already there as to how we can help people with a common capability and, um, instantiation of their skills so that they can be recognised by employers and by others.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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If I just first just really strongly agree with with Phil's points on your on your kind of broader strategy question, I don't think there is a single skills need or a single skills qualification. And instead the, the, our emphasis, including to support those who have left education without level two qualifications has to be on, um, an individual's skills needs, getting them the right support and critically focusing practically on what it is that is the skills pathway into work, and then to progress in work. That is the, the laser focus of everything.

Um, DWP does. Um, I'm really excited by a number of pieces of work in the department at the moment that are fundamentally about that about clarifying what are those skills, um, and careers progression pathways and how can we do the best possible job, particularly for benefit recipients, for customers on universal Credit, but also increasingly, and I think absolutely rightly for a, for a broader spectrum of, of people who might not be accessing benefits, but who would benefit, who would, um, advance, who would, who would be advantaged by additional support.

So some of those things we're doing, I think the first thing I would talk about is the jobs and careers service. So that is a national reform programme for our Jobcentre offer. In the past, our Jobcentre has our job centres have been um too focused on benefit administration and on moving customers into any job available. There is a refocus now to do a better job of understanding customers skills and employment position, and then responding with a more rounded view of what are the skills pathways that get you into a better job and then to progress in your careers?And that's because we were seeing pretty good success rates of moving people into work.

But then we were seeing very low in-work progression. Um, so, um, another major part of that jobs and careers service reform is the integration of the adult careers provision in alongside Jobcentre support. So you end up with one, uh, national service, which offers not just employment and employment support, but employment skills and careers all integrated into one offer. And there's massive opportunity for the department in that because we've got the benefit of all of those incredibly skilled and experienced careers professionals moving into our job centres, and we're really trying to take advantage of that to upskill all of our work coaches to do a better job of speaking to people very early on in their in their, in their conversations with us about what, what some of the skills barriers are, which we know we can then unlock and help with progression.

Um, the second thing I'd just very briefly mention, because it's a passion of mine is the, is our focus particularly on young adults. And yes, as part of that work with young adults, we are seeing a two high numbers of young people for whom, um, not having a level two qualification is a barrier to work. We're working with the Department for education, both to try and, uh, try and. Reduce those numbers to try and work, particularly during 16 to 19 education to do the things that we know, work to help more of those young people achieve those qualifications.

And then to boost our offer early in that young person's experience of, of, of, um, of leaving education. Um, and we have a kind of a much more intensive support offer, which is about identifying the specific skills and employment opportunities in a local area for a young person and doing a much more systematic job of brokering that support and actively supporting that young person to take up those opportunities.
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None Portrait Speaker 9
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Thank you very much.
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None Portrait Speaker 10
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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So. It's it's it's a really it's a really good question. And I think that, um, the, I think it's important to note that the survey that the OECD do, uh, that measures how numeracy has changed over time, um, that shows really big improvements for 16 to 19 year olds. Um, and they have improved more than any other age group in terms of the change that, that, that, that has made. Um, so I think that, that, that is demonstrating that, that what we are now doing in the schools and what we've been doing for the past ten years or so, um, does, is, is feeding through and people are taking that into adulthood.

So, um, the, you know, the condition of funding that we have whereby they have to study towards the, the GCSE or the level two maths, um, that shows that that is now starting to pull through into adulthood. Of course, there's further to go. We'd like to see more people achieving that level. Um, but the improvements are a are a significant achievement. And it's not just in the 16 to 19 year olds that we are seeing the survey show that the numeracy levels of adults has improved.

So, you know, we are seeing that in, in all the age groups, um, bar bar one. And I think it's probably important to recognize that, that we in, in England do use level two as our sort of optimal benchmark if you like, but that is much higher, uh, than, um, than the OECD survey says is what they regard as minimum adult numeracy. Um, and I think perhaps sometimes that differential might account for this, you know, sort of idea that we have the skills of, of an 11 year old.

We are unashamedly demanding in the, in, in England about what we, what we are setting as our optimum benchmark. And then we are also then pulling that through into other qualifications as well. So the new levels that we're developing, for example, um, if we're developing a digital V level at the moment, and that includes things about processing data, managing data, arranging data and analyzing data, all of which are really key numeracy skills. And if we do a, you know, we're doing an occupational certificate in cookery, for example, at the moment.

And that talks about, you know, taking money, talks about handling money. It also talks about, um, you know, scaling, scaling ingredients. So we are pulling numeracy through in all sorts of ways. Um, and, and I think that we, I think, I think that we are being successful in that and the data actually is showing that that is pulling through now from the school system.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Richard.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Sure. Thank you. Um, so as Louise says, there's a, there's a really clear, strong strategy, including following the curriculum and assessment review. The independent review carried out by Becky Francis. Um, looking at maths, um 16 to 19 and indeed through the school phase where there are a set of uh reforms coming. We um the sort of components of that, looking at the accountability system, looking at the sort of minimum number of 100 hours for maths, um, an academic year with an expectation of 35 further hours, workforce support and training, practice dissemination.

We've just just issued a well, the Fe commissioner, in collaboration with the sector as to issued a fantastic, um, good practice guide. Um. Ofsted is placing, you know, a really strong focus in its new framework on on English and maths within 16 to 19. So um there's a, there's a clear strategy there which is showing benefits, but as you, as you've pointed out, there's a, there's a sort of stock and flow. We've got, you know, 77% of 19 year olds now getting to having their level two.

But that's not always been the case and certainly wasn't the case before. The condition of funding policy began in 20 1415. In multiply. The experience that I saw and big evaluation now published shows out there is that you have very many adults who, as Professor Fry and Mr. Segal gave evidence to you, and I watched that with great interest. Um, there is maths anxiety, there are cultural, there are varying experiences for various reasons of how they experience school and um. There is um stigma, there is some cultural sort of acceptance of not not being good at maths.

All the things you heard from Professor Fry and Mr. Siegel. Why multiply I think was so effective is that it empowered explicitly local areas, including strategic authorities, the greater London authorities. We've talked about to try new things to break through some of those barriers, those fears, those anxieties to reach those adults. So some of that is about, um, the and lessons learned to the sort of organisations that are working with adults. So there can be an aversion to perhaps, you know, going into your further education institution and engaging with a qualification that's got the tests and exams sort of connotations.

A lot of these learners are a long way from that in terms of their confidence. Um, so outreaching through community groups volunteer. Voluntary charitable groups that are known and trusted in the community. We did various local areas, did work to sort of upskill some of the staff in those areas around numeracy, numeracy, teaching. Talking about numeracy and maths through the lens of cooking, household budgets, helping your children with their with their homework. Um, you know, these, these were the sorts of interactions, putting it in those sorts of contexts that made it feel real, made it feel relevant and also an important, but also less, less terrifying.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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I can build from that. Um, really agree with Louise and Richard there. I'd say I think I'd say two things. One is I think we should be really proud of those improvements that we've seen internationally. But I also think we need to look within them where we see they, those, the the improvements are particularly amongst high performing groups. And so we, we're within government and within the the Joint Youth Guarantee, particularly across. Department for education, Department for Work and Pensions.

We are now really focusing in on those more disadvantaged groups. Who are those young people who are more likely to fall through the cracks and not leave 16 to 19 education with those qualifications?Um, and what we're trying to do there is really make sure that those improvements are felt by all. And our experience working with young people, colleges, employers, is that in part, the response there is about, um, more. Intensive, um, transitional support for those, those young people, including a kind of a greater role for trusted adults, for example, is really powerful.

Then I just build from, from what Richard has said to say, um, some of that experience of, um, context specific numeracy and the power of that, particularly for those more disadvantaged groups is exactly what we're playing into delivery. We've learned that from multiply and we are now it's exactly the approach we're taking through apprenticeships, where there is a focus on occupation, specific numeracy. Um, and also through the Adult Skills Fund where you'll find provision like um numeracy for work modules within wider employability courses and tailored learning provision, um which is precisely to meet the needs of those, those different groups.

Um and particularly to help those who, who struggle, struggle more.
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None Portrait Speaker 11
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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I'll respond first of all, if that if that's okay. So, um. The functional skills qualification. I'll I'll start there. Um, so in 16 to 19 um the, the, the GCSE is by far and away the um you know, the, the, the dominant qualification studied. Um. I think there's some really important reasons for that. One of the most obvious is it's, is it's brand awareness, it's familiarity to students and parents. It's what students have been studying throughout, throughout secondary school.

It's a very, you know, widely regarded, including internationally qualification employers know it. You know, it's been around since 1986. Um, so it's got that sort of, you know, it's permeated. Um, and that goes for students too. They come often come into college wanting to study the GCSE because that's what they're familiar with. The FSQ it functional skills qualification is available and it's available from entry levels one, two, three into into level one and level two. So where you do still see um the functional skills qualification used quite widely in colleges will be for students at those entry levels and level one when they um, first come into the system as a sort of stepping stone through as they develop, um their.

Pills, um, functional skills, qualifications. Definitely still, you know, available. It's funded under the condition of funding for 16 to 19 year olds. Um, it's a really useful, helpful qualification picks up even more, um, uptake as we go into the adult system. I think, you know, at 16 and in key stage four, the GCSE, you've got qualification there that that has that brand, that status. It's got the two tier papers, as you say. Um, and school.

Delivering a, you know, a really strong academic broad curriculum through maths via in maths through that qualification. I think the intention there is to give all children the chance to sort of have that, that, that foundation, um, what we're doing, including directly in response to the curriculum assessment review in the 16 to 9 space. And this links through to the point that was made previously about. We do recognise that not all young people are progressing at the rate of others. And there are definite, you know, disadvantage um gaps here, um that that are persistent is we're, we're looking to develop a new stepping stone qualification that will help prepare young people to.

Get the GCSE. So they would take this um, lower, lower or higher attaining students. Um which will often be um correlate with more deprived backgrounds for example, um would be able to take this to um ensure they grasped and mastered the real fundamentals and concepts that they may have well have missed during their schooling for, for whatever reason, then setting them up to go on and, um, pass the GCSE in the following year. So, um, I think Baroness Ball was talking about the sort of persistent resets, the persistent failure, um the department at the moment has been really clear that the, the funding, the condition of funding policy isn't, it's not a requirement to reset.

It's a requirement to keep studying and progressing. Of course, we do want people to have the chance to reset to get that qualification that that sort of, you know, essential kind of passport for life. Um, but we want to support them to take an exam when they're ready at the right time. And these new level one stepping stone qualifications that we're just finished consulting on. Um, so we're looking at those responses over 300 responses, very detailed responses. Um, we'll be looking at how to, you know, how to develop that to really help people, young people, particularly the ones with a lower prior attainment, the grade below grade three from at age 16, to be able to master those basics and, and get some achievement from in the process, um, you know, not have repeated failure and then step forward into GCSE.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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So, um, thank you. I'll, I'll say a bit about the, the, to start with, about the key things that we thought we learnt from, uh, multiply and which we've published several um, documents about documents, um, covering in, in very recent history. So um, accessible. Vision, uh, really helpful. And I talked a little bit about this, um, earlier short informal courses, um, not necessarily involving often not involving, as you say, getting a qualification. Those courses by definition tend to have quite a high number of guided learning hours, which means coming back and back in a quite regimented way, just not not suitable or desired for many of these learners with some of the anxieties and sort of barriers that that we were, I talked about and that were trying to reach so short informal courses, contextualized learning, which I, which I talked about, you know, average everyday activities that, um, make it seem a bit less like maths.

Um, but it, but it is, there's a, there's a, a phrase I don't particularly like because it's got sinister connotations, which is stealth maths. Um, but um that's kind of what's, what's been going on through some very carefully well developed curriculum materials that are, that are doing it community based delivery, uh, which I talked about in familiar trusted settings. Um, some practical incentives for some of these learners. So, you know, local areas made decisions to successfully, I think, to, to use, you know, some vouchers, some, maybe some food or stationery, um, sort of incentives, some, some free meals.

When you went along to the breakfast, when you went along to some of some of the events, um, really strong local partnerships, community voluntary organisations again, which I mentioned a little bit earlier, um and employer engagement, um, which, uh, you know, is employers are very hard, very busy, hard pressed people, particularly, you know, SMEs. Um, but that willingness is there when it's, when it's made easy. Um, and particularly where you've got, um, you know, staff, uh, employees. And employees with families and live in communities that, that really, um, want to support.

So they're some of the, the key messages there, I think in. What was great about multiply and what the evaluation shows is that those learners, however tentative those first steps were into some of that provision. It was pretty dramatically impactful for them in terms of what the statistics show about the, you know, the high percentages that then went on, you know, 58% to into some other form of learning, including numeracy courses, high percentage numbers, saying that they felt that they would like to learn more about maths, would like to maybe consider going and getting a qualification.

So I think it's about that, that first step in that re-engagement and that confidence building, which a programme, uh, like multiply and the lessons from it, which are being incorporated as, as Alex says, into broader provision. Um, we're really helpful.
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None Portrait Speaker 10
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We have time before.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Indeed.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Yes. Let me let me come in. Thank you. Um so first I couldn't agree more on, um, it is logical that you need to create a skills and employment offer that works for the learner and works for the employer. Absolutely. And that is at the core of what DWP is trying to deliver now through an integrated um jobs and careers service. Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. And absolutely we've got further to go.

Um, and I think to, to your earlier question within that, we, we need to do a better job of helping explain and navigate the system for, for learners. Then just coming on to your point about young people's attitudes, um, through my work on, on youth employment, I am talking very routinely to, to young people, to young adults. Um, we have a six weekly young, young adult advisory committee we meet with to discuss, to discuss policy. And obviously, we've also got the Alan Milburn um, independent review.

Running at the moment. Um and the interim report is really enlightening in my view. Um my headline on this is that what I hear from young people is they want to be in work, they want to be in good work. They want, they are, they are, they want to have optimism and hope for their futures. And they see work as part of that. I think. They and the extension is numeracy skills are one part of that.

But what they're really focused on is what is the pathway that's going to move me into a, a rewarding career long term. And our role, I think, is to show those skills pathways and apply numeracy at every stage within it. It's not somehow to abstract numeracy from that. It's about demonstrating, uh, and supporting learners to access the provision that gives them the skills they need to work. Um, so I think it's incredibly applied and I think, um, young people see that and want to access the skills provision that moves them into work.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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I can make some comment on that. I mean, I mean, clearly you're entirely right. I mean, small businesses. Um, in many cases, if you talk to small businesses and I was at one last one day with with Minister Smith, um, where, you know, the general narrative is they don't have time, they don't have, you know, mind space they want to do. And that's definitely true of many. Part of that is, as Alex articulated, the complexity of the system and some of the things they've struggled to navigate.

So the drive here to, to simplify, to find people pathways that are straightforward, but also to recognise the skills, as we said earlier, for young people to be able to articulate their skills that they actually have. But once you get small businesses over that hump, it's surprising how much they become advocates and zealots in the area. In fact, in this particular business we went to see up in Coventry called Excel Motors, you know, started by an individual themselves some 20 odd years ago, is now full of apprentices coming through at the lower level management who have previous apprentices.

And, you know, not surprising. They have a big work experience programme. They're very enthusiastic about it. So I think when you can get apprentices over the hump of is this really relevant for me to bring young people in?And I think, you know, in in the working environment generally, I think I think it was referenced earlier, you know, a little bit of the muscle memory of not hiring or bringing your own people through, maybe expecting you can hire from other places. And I think we're now recognising that's something we need to do more of.

There are programs and interventions happening throughout the system. But I mean, one of the interesting ones at the moment, there is a thing called the there's a sort of brokerage, some amount of money for a brokerage pilot, which is working with the devolved authority and with the mayoral authorities or strategic authorities to look at services where maybe you can help, essentially, to help an SME take their first steps. So, you know, many of the SMEs will say things like, you know, safeguarding and all it's all really hard.

I need to do all that. And actually, I haven't got time to think about that. So these brokerage services are essentially already happening in Northern Ireland. There's a really good one happening up in the North east, in Manchester, in um in London and other places. It's already happening services where there's a kind of intermediary will take those people on board, get them into the, um, the small businesses and you'll not be surprised to know that once the small business have had a couple apprentices, they go, oh, these are actually really quite talented, these people and they've got something to offer.

And, you know, the energy that you see within organisations having had apprentices is enormous. So although, as was suggested, not to go too far, but there's I think it's getting people over that hump. And I think that's where the focus is at the moment.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Right. Lady Alexander?
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None Portrait Speaker 8
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Um, yeah.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Well, I mean, I think even without the to support numeracy, um, at the end of your sentence, I think employers as, as has been articulated, have stepped in many cases down their support of the skills system or even of skilling in general, as we know that. Well rehearsed statistic that UK employers invest about half the European average in training their people, and some 40% of employers don't do any training at all. So there's clearly some sort of misalignment of people's perception of the value of training and maybe the, the, the capabilities that there are, because it's not just, public provision, um, that we need to realign to.

So, so I think there are programs and I think, you know, without going through all the things we've talked about already, you know, whether it be in apprenticeship or, or associated programs or it be in, in the more specific. Educational ones, there are capabilities to do that. I think one of the challenges that was one that was brought out in the previous question is that the opportunity, the understanding about how it all joins together needs to be much clearer. We talk a lot in Skills England about the need for much, much more clear, simple communications, particularly to employers and to individuals, so that they realise that the system does work for them, can work for them and is relevant.

So that's an important part of of what we can do. And I think there is a lot of provision and capability there. And also within the occupational standards, which we've talked about a few times, those are employee consulted, employee built standards. And so the more we can have employers articulating the need for numeracy and literacy and, and digital and other fundamentals within those standards, then the better. So I guess the short answer is the more we get employers engaged, the better the outcomes will be.

And I think we need to change that decline. And I think there's a lot of work to try and do that.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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I just reflect on on your second question, particularly on how government is then supporting business to build on that. I totally agree. In terms of the role of employers. Um, I think the first thing to say is, is exactly as Phil has said, which is giving employers a really strong and powerful voice in the design of the skills, system and skills. England is, is really sort of leading, leading the charge on that. Secondly, I'd say government is really, um, um, focusing on how does how do our systems prepare a workforce capable and willing and able to take on the jobs in the economy today and in the future?And that's obviously through our education system and then through our employment and skills support.

And then the final thing I'd say is then, um, there is a more focused piece of work around de-risking the employment of, of particular groups who are currently excluded from the labour market. So we have a particular um, participation crisis at the moment for young people. So we have a range of um programs which are specifically to de-risk young people's employment to take some of the financial risk, some of the administrative risk into government, because it is in all of our interests for those young people to move into work.

And we have a similar programme for other kind of more disadvantaged groups from the labour market. Um, so for example, your, your long term unemployed with, with health conditions. So I'd say it's in those three words three ways, bringing the employers right into the heart of the system, um, ensuring there is a work ready workforce and then, and then de-risking the employment of particular groups.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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Um there. Are two there's a couple of things going on here. Um the nature of the provision, large amounts of it was re-engaging, building some, some of the sort of most basic skills through um the sorts of activities we talked about, there was definitely. Consideration of kind of, you know, before and after session. Um, assessment if you like, in a more formal sense became apparent very quickly that that was kind of undermining the whole point of the programme and engaging the learners.

Um, it was triggering a lot of those kind of barriers that, um, these learners had around engaging with maths and numeracy provision in the first place. And we were seeing, you know, local areas were telling us they were seeing very high attrition and low take up of some of the provision. So our evaluation approach took a step back. In that sense, we were still gathering information through learner surveys, through surveys of providers themselves about what learners were saying after experiencing multiply provision, and their confidence levels, their feeling of of confidence in numeracy and mathematics, um, in the providers and tutors views of what they were seeing in the learners.

Kind of before and after formal assessments of, of the provision wasn't viable. And didn't seem also good value for money. Um, on that basis, the evaluation itself is. You've clearly looked at it, there's a, there's a whole weight of products there and strong evaluation approaches from various and IFS and other other partners across the programme.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Lady Ball, you.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Yes. No problem.
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None Portrait Speaker 11
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Thank you very much.
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None Portrait Speaker 8
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 8
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Yeah.
This debate has concluded
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