Commons Chamber
Friday 25th April 2025
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
(began 3 weeks, 1 day ago)
Watch LiveSkip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
09:34
None
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Order, Order, order.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I beg to move that the house sits
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I beg to move that the house sits in private. Division, clever
None
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Order, Order, order.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I beg to move that the house sits
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I beg to move that the house sits in private. Division, clever
09:35
Division: House do sit in private.
-
Division: House do sit in private.
Order. Order. The Order. The question Order. The question is Order. The question is that Order. The question is that the Lock the Lock the doors. ... ... The ... The voting ... The voting lobby ... The voting lobby please.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The The ayes The ayes to The ayes to the The ayes to the right The ayes to the right one.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The ayes to the right one. The noes to the left 73.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
noes to the left 73. Conclusive. Thank you. The ayes
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Conclusive. Thank you. The ayes to the right one. The noes to the to the right one. The noes to the left 73. The noes have it. The noes left 73. The noes have it. The noes have it. Unlock. The clerk will now
**** Possible New Speaker ****
proceed to read the orders of the day. Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill Second Reading.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you Mr Speaker. I beg to move that the bill be read a second time. The Devolution (Immigration) time. The Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill. Can I start by giving thanks to you and colleagues
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The The ayes The ayes to The ayes to the The ayes to the right The ayes to the right one.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The ayes to the right one. The noes to the left 73.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
noes to the left 73. Conclusive. Thank you. The ayes
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Conclusive. Thank you. The ayes to the right one. The noes to the to the right one. The noes to the left 73. The noes have it. The noes left 73. The noes have it. The noes have it. Unlock. The clerk will now
**** Possible New Speaker ****
proceed to read the orders of the day. Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill Second Reading.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you Mr Speaker. I beg to move that the bill be read a second time. The Devolution (Immigration) time. The Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill. Can I start by giving thanks to you and colleagues
09:52
Private Members' Bills: Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill: Second Reading
-
Private Members' Bills: Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill: Second Reading
who are attending today thanks in particular to you and to the staff particular to you and to the staff in the House of Commons for their assistance. This is slightly unexpected in terms of having this debate today as I think it is fair for us all to acknowledge. I'm particularly grateful for the help I have received and that your team had provided to me over the past few days. It might be unexpected but it is nevertheless a very timely debate for Scotland's particular needs.
It
It
09:53
Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)
-
-
Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)
comes the day after, of course I would give a shout out to Scotland's would give a shout out to Scotland's newest councillor Linda Holton, who newest councillor Linda Holton, who was elected last night in the SNP's second highest share of the vote area and labours second lowest share area and labours second lowest share of the vote ever. I think that of the vote ever. I think that speaks to something. That speaks to some of the appointment that has been felt in recent times, and it been felt in recent times, and it speaks to a notion that sometimes politicians in this place do not adequately address the needs of Scotland or the needs of other parts of the United Kingdom.
Before I get to the substance of my speech, I want to be clear about something. Given the nature of the bill, I will concede that this bill is not for everyone. It is a short spill, in fact it is the very point that members made during the assisted dying debate that this is not for everybody, that we can get into the details later on. But I want to be clear, we can all disagree on a wide range of areas, all of us across this chamber.
I am up for working with colleagues from across the House and in particular Scottish Labour, to amend this, to find some common ground, and to meet the commitments that Scottish Labour have already made which are pertinent to this bill. I am glad that we have got the time. It is valuable time. We don't always get the time to debate areas that are of particular interest to Scotland. I think it is ironic that I have been given time to debate and discuss something, yes it relates to an SNP policy but it also relates to labour policy and to a certain extent Liberal Democrat policy as well.
It is unfortunate they have not been able to attend today. This has become particularly apparent given the catastrophe that has been visited on our economy and our citizens as a direct consequence of leaving the EU. And I know that when I say that, I do not say anything that is particularly controversial. I remember with fondness my time working closely with the Secretary of State for Scotland when he was farsighted enough to see the utter catastrophe that would be visited upon Scotland and the rest of the UK if we embraced a hard Brexit.
And I valued the time working with the Secretary of State for Scotland on that. I have been a bit surprised since he has embraced that hard story Brexit subsequently. I know things change in politics. We take the circumstances when they change, but I'm not entirely sure what has changed for the positive since we left the EU in 2016. The economy has tanked, we have had rights taken away from our citizens, opportunities taken away, and we have lost billions to the Exchequer.
£40 billion each year, not just my numbers, and before I mention another Labour figure I will give
**** Possible New Speaker ****
way to the honourable Member. I thank the honourable lady before giving way. He is right to before giving way. He is right to talk about growing the economy. Does he agree that if the Scottish government had used the powers that they actually have to grow the they actually have to grow the Scottish economy, it would now be 8.5 billion times better, larger now 8.5 billion times better, larger now than from 2012 until 2023? And my constituents would be much better
**** Possible New Speaker ****
off? I am a great admirer of the honourable lady and she joined me on that sanctions list this week for Russia. I pay credit to her work for the children of Ukraine. I'm somewhat surprised that given the growth figures that she has now turns down in favour of independence because we all know what happens, when Scotland remained part of the UK and hits that we took. It has
**** Possible New Speaker ****
been disappointing that Labour have embraced that and I will take the second point before making progress. He raises a moment ago very
**** Possible New Speaker ****
He raises a moment ago very interesting point about the epiphany that the Secretary of State for Scotland has had in the intervening decade about the merits and demerits decade about the merits and demerits of Brexit. Isn't it the case that no matter what this minister or any other minister or any other British government thinks, Scottish or government thinks, Scottish or government thinks, Scottish or otherwise, they are not in thrall to the realities of the economy, they
**** Possible New Speaker ****
are enthralled to voters of Middle England? As usual my noble Friend makes an excellent point. I want to come to excellent point. I want to come to the way that we discuss and debate migration. It is a good thing that benefits all of us. I have been benefits all of us. I have been deeply disappointed by it, I'm sorry deeply disappointed by it, I'm sorry to say, the poison that often turns to rhetoric when we discuss that issue, we need to be honest when issue, we need to be honest when talking about uncontrolled migration you need migration policy.
I want to talk about some of the industries talk about some of the industries that have talked to me in a sensible way that I think this house should listen to when it comes to how we deal with migration. I said to the honourable lady that I mentioned Labour. The Labour Mayor of London Labour. The Labour Mayor of London and his own analysis reckons that the Brexit that this government has embraced, I don't what has happened in secular state. Lunch, £40 billion each ear.
That your own Labour Mayor of London says this. When you are making cuts to fuel payments or the disabled, it is to pay for a Brexit that nobody voted for and nobody wants. On that issue, and in terms of embracing a hard story Brexit, I want to refer to a former member obviously, Michael Gove. Even before obviously, Michael Gove. Even before the Brexit votes, the architect of Brexit could see the damage that was going to be caused to Scotland's economy.
What did the architect say? If, in the course of the negotiations, the Scottish Parliament wants to play a role in deciding how the visa system could work, much as it works in other parts of the European economic area, that is something we will look into. " And he said, " The numbers who come in the future will be decided by the Westminster Parliament and the Holyrood parliament working together. " A commitment made by a Conservative minister prior to the Brexit referendum, I remember listening to it on Radio Scotland.
I love to quote Michael Gove. When the history is written of this place, there can be few politicians along with the former Prime Minister Johnson who will have caused as much damage, whose legacy will be one of cost, damage economically, opportunities, and to those of our young people. That moment of self reflection, Mr Gove did say that Scotland needed a particular solution. I also thought I would quote him, if I was going to appeal to Scottish Labour today they appear to have embraced Michael Gove and are now getting prepared to stick him in the House of Lords.
Making an unelected bureaucrat for life that he rails against. The Secretary of State is making faces I'm not sure he is signed off on that yet or how keen he is. But after hearing about these unelected bureaucrats, they are about as the German House of Lords. I understand from the Press and Journal that he is about to become Lord Gove of Tory. I'm not sure what the good people think of that, I'm not sure what the good people have done to deserve that.
My honourable friend from Aberdeen South will have a better idea than I do. I'm not sure they are going to think an awful lot of that. But having embraced a hard story Brexit, Scottish Labour, here we go. If you can tell me why on earth Labour are putting Michael Gove into the House
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I think the honourable gentleman for indulging me a second time, but he references Brexit. Can he clarify he references Brexit. Can he clarify for the house why it is that his party spent less campaigning against party spent less campaigning against Brexit than they did on the local by-election campaign in Scotland? by-election campaign in Scotland? The newfound conversion to opposing Brexit might be welcome but yes, if that clarification would be helpful.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that clarification would be helpful. I was Deputy Director of our remaining campaign and I was delighted when every part of Scotland, not only did every part vote overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, every local authority area voted to remain in the EU, even those that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
had voted against joining the EU. Could you give me some guidance
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Could you give me some guidance on how rerunning the debate from 10 years ago is in anyway linked to a single cause bill from the Scottish National party?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
National party? That is not a point of order but if I can say to the honourable if I can say to the honourable member that it is a broad scope for the bill that does allow some
**** Possible New Speaker ****
broadness in it. I am not that surprised that the Labour Party wants to close down a debate on Brexit. The honourable member is seeking to save his party from their blushes and I respect him from that, but you know where we need to open up that debate. The Treasury will need to open up the debate on how much money it is costing to public services. Young people will need to open up that debate in terms of the opportunities it is costing them.
I listen to the member yesterday and made a good speech what he talked about when we talked about the opportunities for young people for a youth mobility scheme that he endorsed, but what else did he talk about? He talked about the cap on young people. He talked about few young people being able to take the opportunities from freedom of movement that he enjoyed and that I enjoyed. What a paucity of ambition from the Labour Party. What a positive ambition for young people who have been left with fewer rights.
I expect that from the Conservative party, not even in my wildest dreams would I have expected that from the Labour Party and not only Labour Party who want to crow
**** Possible New Speaker ****
about this on young people. It was interesting yesterday. I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
It was interesting yesterday. I think his speech misjudged the tone think his speech misjudged the tone in Westminster Hall, but a number of parliamentarians are looking for practical steps to move forward in practical steps to move forward in the European Union. We have had 15 years of moving backwards under the Conservatives. We have a speech Conservatives. We have a speech detached from reality so our job is to get a stronger deal on one of the key first step to that is the mobility system and I am proud of that.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I will also say this. I sat in that debate yesterday. What I find frustrating is that it was one of frustrating is that it was one of those debates where Labour member those debates where Labour member those debates where Labour member after Labour member was standing out and talking about how awful Brexit and talking about how awful Brexit was. The damage it was doing and I will refer to yesterday, the damage will refer to yesterday, the damage it was doing to young people, to universities, to SMEs, to security, the damage it was doing to Britain's place in the world.
But what is the government doing about it? Nothing. Embracing the hardest of hard Brexit's. You could reintroduce the freedoms to bring benefits to citizens the length and breadth of the UK. Let me get onto Scottish
**** Possible New Speaker ****
union. I sat on those benches behind the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I sat on those benches behind the members during those long tomatoes days of the Brexit debate and I remember watching member after member game the system to pressures towards a new deal Brexit in the towards a new deal Brexit in the hope that the government at the time would abandon the plan. There were Labour members who are arguing consistently that we should adopt consistently that we should adopt deals, and every opportunity, they voted against us because the politics was more important than a good deal for the country.
I know he is a born again Brexiteer, and he has taken the nonsense of them. I was one of the signatures. Have a look at the bell that was passed by this house. The bill that was passed that band and no deal Brexit as we were pushing on it. Who is one of the co-authors of that bill? I was one of the co-authors, and I worked with Labour colleagues and works with Liberal Democrat colleagues, with green colleagues, all to stop the new deal that Brexiteers like the one he has embraced like Boris Johnson embraced have been so damaging.
Let me move onto Scottish Labour. We have had quite enough nonsense from the honourable member today, and that is part of the final world of the litres.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The bill as an immigration bill, and while I did say the scope is and while I did say the scope is quite wide, please try to stick to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
some of the scope of immigration. I am keen to knock on the head
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am keen to knock on the head some of the points made by the member. Let me talk about our member. Let me talk about our commitments. Let me quote the leader of the Scottish Labour Party. I know the Secretary of State doesn't like the Secretary of State doesn't like talking about him in this regard, but let me at least give him his place. What was said, I have a number of conversations with colleagues, and since the election, they already want to follow the advisory committee for representation.
We have different needs and different parts of the country. You are quite right that when I talk about being a little bit more reaching out to other colleagues, I know that not everything in this bill will be for everybody in this house, but what it gives us as an opportunity to meet the commitment that is being made. At third reading, we can have a build team with Scottish Labour representation on that. And I would like to have conservative representation on that.
Let's be reflective of who is in the house. Almost as generous as the Labour Party are to his party on a regular basis. But I would like to be generous. Let's quote the deputy. I would expect governments to work together to talk to each other, to respond to each other's needs and the moment there are no plans for one, I think you have governments taking commonsense approaches that an incoming Labour government would do and dialogue will continue, so it will be great.
I know the Secretary of State will have the opportunity to talk about this today, and I look forward to an update on the talks and where he is on this, but this will give him time and give the rest of us time the Scottish Secretary. I am very glad to see this in place. I welcome them, and when it comes to immigration policy, one size does not fit all. It shouldn't be beyond us to attract more people to work and settle here, and I know he is talked about the challenges of rural communities that he represents and I was glad to get his particular intervention, and I think his intervention is on that, and I hope we can have some conversations with honourable friends about that as well.
And here is the other one. Scottish Labour manifesto. We will work with the Scottish Government for different sectors. They will ensure migration and skills policy
**** Possible New Speaker ****
work for every part of the UK. I am struck by his interest in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am struck by his interest in making sure that young people get making sure that young people get the opportunities they deserve because in a place like East Thanet, far away from Scotland, we are far away from Scotland, we are deeply concerned that we have one in 10 young people out of education and training, but I wonder what he has training, but I wonder what he has to say about the SNP's record on this when there are one in six young
**** Possible New Speaker ****
people out of education in Scotland. The honourable lady made a good point. She will know that right now, we are providing fewer opportunities for young people. In terms of positive destination, we are doing great work by skills development Scotland, but again, this speaks of the migration debate that we have had in recent years. Migration has driven our policies and economic growth for centuries, and yet we lean in to this reform agenda that is so poisonous to our political rhetoric.
We talk about separate issues. She will be aware of the small boats issue, a tragic issue, and one that we talk about at length when we do not talk about migration as a whole. And I want us to have a sensible debate, and I very much look forward to the honourable ladies contribution because I think she will have a valuable contribution. I thing there will be a valuable contribution to be had from that part of the United Kingdom and the effect that Brexit has had in the area.
I know they are not here, but the Liberal Democrats have traditionally talked about greater decentralisation of government. It is something that we stand on, and I would love to take an intervention from them today, but of course, they are not here. We all said the leader of the Liberal Democrats in Scotland accepts immigration as essential for maintaining growth, but also for sustainability of services, and I will talk about that in a moment. We need both governments to work together on migration to ensure that rules are sensitive to the skills that are needed in every corner of these islands and every sector of the economy.
That is something we can definitely pick up at Committee stage if we can work together. Liberal Democrats also talk about special visas for those fleeing Donald Trump as well. I'm not sure what representations we have made for the government but there are always opportunities to be had, so if I can move on to a point of common ground. We are not all on the same ground. This is something where there are differences, but that is the whole point in parliament, the point in us coming together to find solutions, I do think that sometimes the majority nature of this place does not help.
I can see that Scottish Labour won the election and I congratulate them for that. And I congratulate the prime minister on that. They won the election. But they won the election on a small number of votes, a small percentage of the votes. That is the system that they have, but I would ask them not to make the same mistakes at the Conservative made thinking that gaining 3435% of the vote is not a majority. It might give you a majority seat but they need to listen to other parties, different parts of the countries, and that is crucial, and that is the point that I want to return to with the other sectors.
We can debate and discuss. Even the Conservatives as well. But actually, we all have a responsibility to try to listen to these sectors who are doing such valuable work, and I know we all try to do so in different ways, and attic and stitchery level as well. I was just outside place where I spoke to a farmer and I know other members will be doing something similar about the value that migration has brought to the industry. A number of us will have enjoyed this over our breakfast.
Even Aberdeenshire. All of this depending on migration and I know that members will try wherever they possibly can to engage with local constituents and to listen so that they can do their work in here better. I'm not asking us to come to the same conclusion that it is in that engagement that we seek to do our work better. The tourism sector, The hospitality and tourism industry, vital for rural remote communities, vital for every sector in Scotland and in the UK.
Hospitality and tourism industry across Scotland has been calling for a Scotland visa for some time. We believe it is one of the ways in which we can help address the skills in the workforce shortage that we have in the industry. The Scottish Tourism Alliance says, " A failure to find a tailored solution risks a detrimental impact on the economy and opportunities for economic growth. Staff shortages are leading to tourism and hospitality businesses needing to close for longer outside the summer season, reduced opening hours and shut down certain services such as hotels.
" Regardless of what our thoughts are, you'll see straight away the impact that has on growth. We see the impact it has on the sustainability of our services as well. The Scottish Tourism Alliance also said, "Introducing a Scottish Visa scheme would not only match immigration to demand for certain skills but would also encourage more people to live and work in Scotland particularly in rural and island communities that are expecting a drain in people of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
working age and families. " I will give way. This debate is interesting if
**** Possible New Speaker ****
This debate is interesting if nothing else. If we are encouraging nothing else. If we are encouraging people to live in Scotland or rural Scotland in particular, how does the SNP suggest it is going to be SNP suggest it is going to be achieved? When anyone earning over £28,000 as condos pay more income tax. Local governments have a big shortfall which will impact rural shortfall which will impact rural communities more given the way that money is spent over large areas.
We have a housing crisis announced in Scotland. How will this attract people to Scotland especially rural areas?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm not sure she has been reading
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm not sure she has been reading leaf labour briefings. She makes available point on rural areas I available point on rural areas I know her own fitment to her constituency. I commend her on that and the way she conducts herself in and the way she conducts herself in this place. We think there's a challenge with bringing workers to rural areas, we know that. It is not new. It is why so many rural new. It is why so many rural industries have been crying out for Scottish visa system to plug the gap.
We don't have enough challenge in terms of the threshold, high threshold for bringing people into the country. In terms of the Scottish government policy, I would not expect the Conservative party given the ideological reasons, but we have talked to the Labour Party but having a more progressive tax system whereby those who are earning less pay less, those who are earning more pay more. I'm not going to criticise her because she stood on a manifesto and won her election.
But I'm surprised the Labour Party don't take the opportunity to endorse that more strongly. It is also acknowledged that 70% of the Scottish government's budget still comes in the form of a block grant from Westminster. That is a huge amount. All the talk we have heard of decentralisation of empowerment and other areas, why don't we have a more sensible approach to that? Let me move on to other sectors. I want to talk about two or sectors. I will give way.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The honourable gentleman mentions
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The honourable gentleman mentions rightly the block grant. It is not entirely correct to state is the largest part of the Scottish Government that he voted against it
**** Possible New Speaker ****
when it gave the Scottish Government £4.9 billion extra. What I find striking about that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
What I find striking about that is that the Scottish Government has not just had to take its block not just had to take its block grant, receive it rather than making these decisions for ourselves which is something that those of us on these benches would like to do. But also spent years with Tory austerity staring down the barrel of cuts elsewhere as well. And the Secretary of State might be correct in terms of the cash but we know after years of the Tory government, not helped by the Labour Party, not helped by the cuts as a result of Brexit that they now endorse, the Winter Fuel Allowance, and that the Scottish Government actually brought in an offset to that Winter Fuel Allowance, the bedroom tax, and in response to the Secretary of State chuntering from a sedentary position, which I have always wanted to say.
All these areas that the Scottish Government is offsetting the damage of Westminster policies. For how long do we have to put up with damaging Westminster policies? This bill today if I come back to this bill today, this bill today is a way of offsetting some of the damage that has been done by a hostile environment, by Brexit which I'm astonished daily that the Scottish Labour Party continue to endorse. Let me talk about the Scottish care system. The current UK immigration system and all of us will benefit from the care system at some point, all of us and we all have loved ones to have benefited.
So I think their voice is particularly pertinent. The current UK immigration system is failing Scotland, and the recent rule changes and the incompatible increase in minimum salary threshold exacerbate existing recruitment challenges and poses significant risks to the sustainability and delivery of the care services. If I go on and I talked about one bit to my constituency and I will talk about another bit. The secretary of state and I had an exchange about this. We know the issue of dependence in the care sector has had a significant impact on the higher education sector as well.
I'm glad to see in view of the higher education minister in his place. I refer to my Register of Interests, and we know of the damage that has been done from that dependence perspective and bringing dependence. I will give way before I make
**** Possible New Speaker ****
progress. Carers have written to me, but
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Carers have written to me, but the problem with care is not that we are getting labour from elsewhere it is that we are not paying carers is that we are not paying carers enough. Can I ask the honourable enough. Can I ask the honourable gentleman why the SNP wasted so much money on their failed service, and money on their failed service, and why they spent £28 million rather than working across the house in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
than working across the house in good faith to deliver the care that people need? Order. Can I remind all members that the bill is why Scotland should have devolved powers for immigration.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Chair. I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Chair. I am always struck that the Labour Party never seem to be that keen to Party never seem to be that keen to talk about areas for which they have responsibility. They talk about the responsibility. They talk about the Scottish Government an awful lot were not areas for which they are responsible. This speaks to a specific Scottish solution that can specific Scottish solution that can be brought in to meet Scottish be brought in to meet Scottish particular needs.
And one that's to be fair Scottish Labour have talked about. Let me move on to talk about think tanks and other organisations as well. The Law Society of Scotland have talked about how this would
**** Possible New Speaker ****
work or not. I will give way to the Secretary of State one more time then will move on to these other organisations. I'm grateful because your
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm grateful because your gentlemen has been very generous in giving way. On the bill, on the giving way. On the bill, on the exact bill, all the things he said are not included in the bill. This are not included in the bill. This bill is a simple one line bill which says to devolve the entire says to devolve the entire immigration system to Scotland. For a member who might not know how it a member who might not know how it operates, the Scotland act in schedule five says if it is in schedule five is reserved and if it is not it is deemed to be devolved.
This is devolving the entire
**** Possible New Speaker ****
immigration system so the issue of visas he's talking about are irrelevant. I will thank the secretary of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I will thank the secretary of state for his intervention. I think it was valuable. He raises a good point and I'm glad he is paying point and I'm glad he is paying attention. This is the point I raised at the start of the debate when I said this is not ideal, it is when I said this is not ideal, it is a short bill that was proposed some time ago. And I have said I'm very open to this being amended.
I'm hoping we will vote on this today and I would ask the Secretary of State to meet with me ; sit down with his officials and Home Office officials, and I hope the Secretary of State will make that commitment to meet with me so we get that works for his party, that can work for others and hopefully work for the sector as well. I will take that as a Yes. Thank you for being so productive on this. The honourable
**** Possible New Speaker ****
gentleman Your gentlemen has to be clear
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Your gentlemen has to be clear with the house. The purpose of the with the house. The purpose of the bill, if this bill passes it will Millie move immigration from schedule five of the Scotland act schedule five of the Scotland act 1998, and will devolve immigration to the Scottish Government. Yes or no?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
no? I will answer his point. First of all, the right honourable Member has all, the right honourable Member has been here for longer than me. This is a second reading today, and I said to the media this morning and said it in the letter to Anas Sarwar, and I copied the Secretary of State into that letter as well. I wanted to do that to make sure my letter to the Scottish leader, I'm not sure how often they talk, but I wanted to make sure he had see that as well which talked about us coming together talking to each other and on that point I will give way to the member.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am grateful. I know I am new to Parliament and procedures but he will know from experience when it will know from experience when it comes to Private Members' Bill that they are practically rewritten and they are practically rewritten and drafting committee. If we get to take this to committee, it will be take this to committee, it will be worked out. He has been here since 2010 and understands surely how this works?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Before I call him back in, can I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
remind him interventions are on the person speaking. Now we have clarified that point
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Now we have clarified that point of reference, and I look forward to the vote today that the Secretary of State has committed to. I look State has committed to. I look forward to meeting with him; work together because I think that is the together because I think that is the right thing to do. When he talks about what we want to see, of course we want to see devolution of immigration. We want to see immigration. We want to see independence. We differ from other members in this chamber, we are voted onto different manifestoes.
It voted onto different manifestoes. It is not beyond the wit of man, and to be fair to something that the member has a ready reference, it is not beyond the wit of man to find some common ground. Let me talk about some of the think tanks and other organisations and what they have said. I'm keen to let other members have the opportunity to speak today. Bespoke Visa schemes for Scotland, Madam Deputy Speaker I think that is most effective heckle I've had all day.
It is not where I expect it to come from. The Law Society of Scotland said that bespoke Visa schemes for Scotland combined with expanding activities in relation to immigration, to advertise these new arrangements would be an effective way of ensuring that immigration policy meets Scotland's needs. The SETI supports great effects abilities on Scotland to respond to its distinct demographic and employment needs. Other countries, and this is something that the member has worked on hard, successfully operate regional migration schemes which target specific needs of economies and the SETI means there is a workable option for needs in the UK system.
I option for needs in the UK system. I agree with that. Finally, I want to sit on this, a former Labour councillor, says there is a strong unified voice across all sectors in Scotland in favour of a flexible immigration system that can meet a particular economic workforce population needs. For many years, population needs. For many years, the organisation has been calling for an immigration system that is responsive to local as well as national needs and that recognises and addresses the challenge that we face.
Finally I will go to Reform Scotland because they have done a huge amount of work on this. And I commend them for it. They have said that there is no reason why Westminster cannot create an immigration system which takes Scotland's situation into account. It is important to remember that this has been done before through the fresh talent initiative which in fairness Lord McConnell the Labour executive has worked with the government to do that. I would not be unique in the sense that there are other decentralised approaches elsewhere in the world.
I will pay tribute to the member for Perthshire South who works with other members and they looked into that and I notice something that he will want to talk about. Canada, Australia, Belgium elsewhere have a decentralised approach, so this is The government to talk about devolution, it was a process, not a final destination. This strikes me as being the next process that has happened elsewhere. I want to go to different conversations on migration as well, and I think a number of members want to come in, but I'm
**** Possible New Speaker ****
glad to take an hour. This is an important case about
**** Possible New Speaker ****
This is an important case about the unique needs that there are in Scotland, and the way that things differ, but just going back to the differ, but just going back to the economic point, it is all about growing the economy. Can the member growing the economy. Can the member explained to us that if you explain migration, what is the impact on the migration, what is the impact on the economy and bringing more people in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
jobs in the economy? I'm not an economist, but any economist will tell you that the impact is growth. In the aftermath of leaving the EU, we saw a surge in migration under Boris Johnson's government, and this is something that these members have talked about to criticise Conservative government and what struck me in terms of this debate was that, at the same time we saw a surge in migration, we were seeing a reduction in the rates that we enjoyed as UK citizens.
I may no longer wish to keyhole this but it is devaluation which has impacted on each and every one of us in terms of the loss of those rights, and on that point, before I finalise, I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
know he has been trying to get in. I was interested to hear what was said about experts talking about regional migration policies. My constituency suffered from a regional migration policy in living memory and the Isle of Sheppey was separated from mainland migration during both wars in the last during both wars in the last century. It has left lasting impact century. It has left lasting impact on Sheppey. Deep, profound damage because it was managed in a way that because it was managed in a way that meant that people can get on and off the island.
It has left a deep legacy of mistrust because of the rest of Great Britain. This is something which not want to replicate, and I think this is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
something where I oppose this bill. I know Kent very well. It is the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I know Kent very well. It is the garden of England. The kingdom of garden of England. The kingdom of Kent. It is a fine county. And I know the Isle of Sheppey and some of the challenges that the honourable member talks to Anne's right to raise them, and he is representing raise them, and he is representing constituents very well. I am grateful for raising this issue and the way in which he is raising this the way in which he is raising this issue.
Kent is a fine place. I'm trying to answer your colleagues point. Kent is not Scotland, and this is another point. We have got islands, some fine islands. But they are not the same. To compare them is a false comparison. I take his point that this is the value of these kinds of debates that we can have these exchanges, but the reason why when through all the think tanks, all the experts, but there is such a body of evidence in Scotland around this, and that is why the evidence had such a serious reading from every single party in Scotland as well, and on that point, I will give way.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Does he not agree that it is that strength of agreement across sector in Scotland which leaves so many people disappointed in the fact there are expectations and hopes there are expectations and hopes raised that a change of government in this place would leave to a change of government in migration policy. Does that not make it essential that we are served by powers in relation to this?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I want to see these in Hollywood. We absolutely agree on it, but you can amend, you can change, but this is something that we can do, and I look forward to working with the Secretary of State. I think we can find common ground, but I will finish on a conversation on
**** Possible New Speaker ****
point. I thank the member for giving
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the member for giving way, and he says there is a body of evidence in favour of his bill, but evidence in favour of his bill, but I want to point him to another body of evidence, and that is the fact that you have 100,000 children in Scotland who do not have a home to Scotland who do not have a home to call their own, and at the same time, we have children in schools in Scotland where we have got the widest poverty -related attainment gap ever.
That is the body of evidence that we need to look to, and does he agree that his party would be better off looking at addressing these issues to attract workers to Scotland rather than creating more red tape for businesses.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I am a bit struck that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I am a bit struck that when bringing in bit of growth that will push more children in Scotland into poverty, a Westminster policy that is driving Scottish child property at the same time when you property at the same time when you have UN reports talking about the benefits of the Scottish child payment, if the Scottish child payment, if the Scottish child payment was bought in across the UK, it would take tens of thousands of children including those out of children including those out of poverty.
We know that, and again, I am glad that as a final point because it talks to me of that positive ambition that we have seen from the Labour Party, one that I find disappointing. One that will drive through the cuts to disabled children into poverty whereas if they simply replicated what we did in Scotland with the Scottish payment, there could be benefits throughout the United Kingdom. Now, I look at the countries around us that have taken a more positive approach to European integration and working with other countries, and look at Ireland and the benefits that has had from independence.
The benefits of European integration. Under previous governments, we are now seeing that Being reduced because of the wide-ranging powers that they have had. The country that previously suffered from emigration now benefiting from emigration. That is ambition. That is the benefits that these things can bring, they are right on our doorstep, and it talks to me about the conversation that we have about this. Can we pull out the poison on the immigration debate? Nobody is talking about uncontrolled immigration, and we need to distinguish between immigration and refugees, and maybe on the eve of his funeral, we can reflect on Pope Francis's legacy, something we could all do well to reflect upon, and especially the conversations I have had the have been heartbreaking around those desperate enough to get into small homes to try to cross the channel.
I want to talk about the Scottish Trades Union Congress, and members might do well to listen to the contract. The first Minister is right to highlight the negative effects of pandering to anti- immigration sentiment and the need for a separate Scottish approach. We support additional powers on migration for the Scottish Parliament, serve members opposite won't listen to us or reform Scotland, won't listen to the higher education sector, maybe they will listen to the Trades Union Congress instead. The first Minister was right to push back on the hard right and how we conduct ourselves in office.
We must challenge reform and I'm disappointed they are not here today because I have been generous in taking interventions from different parties who are here. I wish reform were here today. I wish reform were here so we could push back on the rhetoric that too many in this house to offer lean into. This was initially proposed by Michael Gove. This was said to offset Brexit and this is what we got from Michael Gove. We have fewer rights, more isolated, young people with fewer opportunities, hitting public finances, hitting our rights, leaving the UK isolated and vulnerable, more isolated than any other time since the Second World War.
I want to see countries calling and sharing sovereignty. I want to see a European Union that provides a model in the modern age, a European Union that we lean into. The sense of British exceptionalism that this is the only thing out there. It is so small in its outlook, and that is how I describe it, isolated, lonely in its outlook. I want a CS rejoin the European Union. Ireland and England have never had a better relationship in their history than they do now.
Our relationship which is one of partnership, of equals, and previously, within that union that built that, Labour were elected on a small minority. I would say to them that it is time to listen. This bill isn't perfect. I can see that it will not be one for everybody, let's approve this in principle. Let's get it through and then work together on a commitment being made by our party and a commitment by the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Scottish Labour Party. Thank you. The question is that the Bill be now read a second time.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
now read a second time. Thank you. I was just thinking my
Before I get to the substance of my speech, I want to be clear about something. Given the nature of the bill, I will concede that this bill is not for everyone. It is a short spill, in fact it is the very point that members made during the assisted dying debate that this is not for everybody, that we can get into the details later on. But I want to be clear, we can all disagree on a wide range of areas, all of us across this chamber.
I am up for working with colleagues from across the House and in particular Scottish Labour, to amend this, to find some common ground, and to meet the commitments that Scottish Labour have already made which are pertinent to this bill. I am glad that we have got the time. It is valuable time. We don't always get the time to debate areas that are of particular interest to Scotland. I think it is ironic that I have been given time to debate and discuss something, yes it relates to an SNP policy but it also relates to labour policy and to a certain extent Liberal Democrat policy as well.
It is unfortunate they have not been able to attend today. This has become particularly apparent given the catastrophe that has been visited on our economy and our citizens as a direct consequence of leaving the EU. And I know that when I say that, I do not say anything that is particularly controversial. I remember with fondness my time working closely with the Secretary of State for Scotland when he was farsighted enough to see the utter catastrophe that would be visited upon Scotland and the rest of the UK if we embraced a hard Brexit.
And I valued the time working with the Secretary of State for Scotland on that. I have been a bit surprised since he has embraced that hard story Brexit subsequently. I know things change in politics. We take the circumstances when they change, but I'm not entirely sure what has changed for the positive since we left the EU in 2016. The economy has tanked, we have had rights taken away from our citizens, opportunities taken away, and we have lost billions to the Exchequer.
£40 billion each year, not just my numbers, and before I mention another Labour figure I will give
**** Possible New Speaker ****
way to the honourable Member. I thank the honourable lady before giving way. He is right to before giving way. He is right to talk about growing the economy. Does he agree that if the Scottish government had used the powers that they actually have to grow the they actually have to grow the Scottish economy, it would now be 8.5 billion times better, larger now 8.5 billion times better, larger now than from 2012 until 2023? And my constituents would be much better
**** Possible New Speaker ****
off? I am a great admirer of the honourable lady and she joined me on that sanctions list this week for Russia. I pay credit to her work for the children of Ukraine. I'm somewhat surprised that given the growth figures that she has now turns down in favour of independence because we all know what happens, when Scotland remained part of the UK and hits that we took. It has
**** Possible New Speaker ****
been disappointing that Labour have embraced that and I will take the second point before making progress. He raises a moment ago very
**** Possible New Speaker ****
He raises a moment ago very interesting point about the epiphany that the Secretary of State for Scotland has had in the intervening decade about the merits and demerits decade about the merits and demerits of Brexit. Isn't it the case that no matter what this minister or any other minister or any other British government thinks, Scottish or government thinks, Scottish or government thinks, Scottish or otherwise, they are not in thrall to the realities of the economy, they
**** Possible New Speaker ****
are enthralled to voters of Middle England? As usual my noble Friend makes an excellent point. I want to come to excellent point. I want to come to the way that we discuss and debate migration. It is a good thing that benefits all of us. I have been benefits all of us. I have been deeply disappointed by it, I'm sorry deeply disappointed by it, I'm sorry to say, the poison that often turns to rhetoric when we discuss that issue, we need to be honest when issue, we need to be honest when talking about uncontrolled migration you need migration policy.
I want to talk about some of the industries talk about some of the industries that have talked to me in a sensible way that I think this house should listen to when it comes to how we deal with migration. I said to the honourable lady that I mentioned Labour. The Labour Mayor of London Labour. The Labour Mayor of London and his own analysis reckons that the Brexit that this government has embraced, I don't what has happened in secular state. Lunch, £40 billion each ear.
That your own Labour Mayor of London says this. When you are making cuts to fuel payments or the disabled, it is to pay for a Brexit that nobody voted for and nobody wants. On that issue, and in terms of embracing a hard story Brexit, I want to refer to a former member obviously, Michael Gove. Even before obviously, Michael Gove. Even before the Brexit votes, the architect of Brexit could see the damage that was going to be caused to Scotland's economy.
What did the architect say? If, in the course of the negotiations, the Scottish Parliament wants to play a role in deciding how the visa system could work, much as it works in other parts of the European economic area, that is something we will look into. " And he said, " The numbers who come in the future will be decided by the Westminster Parliament and the Holyrood parliament working together. " A commitment made by a Conservative minister prior to the Brexit referendum, I remember listening to it on Radio Scotland.
I love to quote Michael Gove. When the history is written of this place, there can be few politicians along with the former Prime Minister Johnson who will have caused as much damage, whose legacy will be one of cost, damage economically, opportunities, and to those of our young people. That moment of self reflection, Mr Gove did say that Scotland needed a particular solution. I also thought I would quote him, if I was going to appeal to Scottish Labour today they appear to have embraced Michael Gove and are now getting prepared to stick him in the House of Lords.
Making an unelected bureaucrat for life that he rails against. The Secretary of State is making faces I'm not sure he is signed off on that yet or how keen he is. But after hearing about these unelected bureaucrats, they are about as the German House of Lords. I understand from the Press and Journal that he is about to become Lord Gove of Tory. I'm not sure what the good people think of that, I'm not sure what the good people have done to deserve that.
My honourable friend from Aberdeen South will have a better idea than I do. I'm not sure they are going to think an awful lot of that. But having embraced a hard story Brexit, Scottish Labour, here we go. If you can tell me why on earth Labour are putting Michael Gove into the House
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I think the honourable gentleman for indulging me a second time, but he references Brexit. Can he clarify he references Brexit. Can he clarify for the house why it is that his party spent less campaigning against party spent less campaigning against Brexit than they did on the local by-election campaign in Scotland? by-election campaign in Scotland? The newfound conversion to opposing Brexit might be welcome but yes, if that clarification would be helpful.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that clarification would be helpful. I was Deputy Director of our remaining campaign and I was delighted when every part of Scotland, not only did every part vote overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, every local authority area voted to remain in the EU, even those that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
had voted against joining the EU. Could you give me some guidance
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Could you give me some guidance on how rerunning the debate from 10 years ago is in anyway linked to a single cause bill from the Scottish National party?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
National party? That is not a point of order but if I can say to the honourable if I can say to the honourable member that it is a broad scope for the bill that does allow some
**** Possible New Speaker ****
broadness in it. I am not that surprised that the Labour Party wants to close down a debate on Brexit. The honourable member is seeking to save his party from their blushes and I respect him from that, but you know where we need to open up that debate. The Treasury will need to open up the debate on how much money it is costing to public services. Young people will need to open up that debate in terms of the opportunities it is costing them.
I listen to the member yesterday and made a good speech what he talked about when we talked about the opportunities for young people for a youth mobility scheme that he endorsed, but what else did he talk about? He talked about the cap on young people. He talked about few young people being able to take the opportunities from freedom of movement that he enjoyed and that I enjoyed. What a paucity of ambition from the Labour Party. What a positive ambition for young people who have been left with fewer rights.
I expect that from the Conservative party, not even in my wildest dreams would I have expected that from the Labour Party and not only Labour Party who want to crow
**** Possible New Speaker ****
about this on young people. It was interesting yesterday. I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
It was interesting yesterday. I think his speech misjudged the tone think his speech misjudged the tone in Westminster Hall, but a number of parliamentarians are looking for practical steps to move forward in practical steps to move forward in the European Union. We have had 15 years of moving backwards under the Conservatives. We have a speech Conservatives. We have a speech detached from reality so our job is to get a stronger deal on one of the key first step to that is the mobility system and I am proud of that.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I will also say this. I sat in that debate yesterday. What I find frustrating is that it was one of frustrating is that it was one of those debates where Labour member those debates where Labour member those debates where Labour member after Labour member was standing out and talking about how awful Brexit and talking about how awful Brexit was. The damage it was doing and I will refer to yesterday, the damage will refer to yesterday, the damage it was doing to young people, to universities, to SMEs, to security, the damage it was doing to Britain's place in the world.
But what is the government doing about it? Nothing. Embracing the hardest of hard Brexit's. You could reintroduce the freedoms to bring benefits to citizens the length and breadth of the UK. Let me get onto Scottish
**** Possible New Speaker ****
union. I sat on those benches behind the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I sat on those benches behind the members during those long tomatoes days of the Brexit debate and I remember watching member after member game the system to pressures towards a new deal Brexit in the towards a new deal Brexit in the hope that the government at the time would abandon the plan. There were Labour members who are arguing consistently that we should adopt consistently that we should adopt deals, and every opportunity, they voted against us because the politics was more important than a good deal for the country.
I know he is a born again Brexiteer, and he has taken the nonsense of them. I was one of the signatures. Have a look at the bell that was passed by this house. The bill that was passed that band and no deal Brexit as we were pushing on it. Who is one of the co-authors of that bill? I was one of the co-authors, and I worked with Labour colleagues and works with Liberal Democrat colleagues, with green colleagues, all to stop the new deal that Brexiteers like the one he has embraced like Boris Johnson embraced have been so damaging.
Let me move onto Scottish Labour. We have had quite enough nonsense from the honourable member today, and that is part of the final world of the litres.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The bill as an immigration bill, and while I did say the scope is and while I did say the scope is quite wide, please try to stick to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
some of the scope of immigration. I am keen to knock on the head
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am keen to knock on the head some of the points made by the member. Let me talk about our member. Let me talk about our commitments. Let me quote the leader of the Scottish Labour Party. I know the Secretary of State doesn't like the Secretary of State doesn't like talking about him in this regard, but let me at least give him his place. What was said, I have a number of conversations with colleagues, and since the election, they already want to follow the advisory committee for representation.
We have different needs and different parts of the country. You are quite right that when I talk about being a little bit more reaching out to other colleagues, I know that not everything in this bill will be for everybody in this house, but what it gives us as an opportunity to meet the commitment that is being made. At third reading, we can have a build team with Scottish Labour representation on that. And I would like to have conservative representation on that.
Let's be reflective of who is in the house. Almost as generous as the Labour Party are to his party on a regular basis. But I would like to be generous. Let's quote the deputy. I would expect governments to work together to talk to each other, to respond to each other's needs and the moment there are no plans for one, I think you have governments taking commonsense approaches that an incoming Labour government would do and dialogue will continue, so it will be great.
I know the Secretary of State will have the opportunity to talk about this today, and I look forward to an update on the talks and where he is on this, but this will give him time and give the rest of us time the Scottish Secretary. I am very glad to see this in place. I welcome them, and when it comes to immigration policy, one size does not fit all. It shouldn't be beyond us to attract more people to work and settle here, and I know he is talked about the challenges of rural communities that he represents and I was glad to get his particular intervention, and I think his intervention is on that, and I hope we can have some conversations with honourable friends about that as well.
And here is the other one. Scottish Labour manifesto. We will work with the Scottish Government for different sectors. They will ensure migration and skills policy
**** Possible New Speaker ****
work for every part of the UK. I am struck by his interest in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am struck by his interest in making sure that young people get making sure that young people get the opportunities they deserve because in a place like East Thanet, far away from Scotland, we are far away from Scotland, we are deeply concerned that we have one in 10 young people out of education and training, but I wonder what he has training, but I wonder what he has to say about the SNP's record on this when there are one in six young
**** Possible New Speaker ****
people out of education in Scotland. The honourable lady made a good point. She will know that right now, we are providing fewer opportunities for young people. In terms of positive destination, we are doing great work by skills development Scotland, but again, this speaks of the migration debate that we have had in recent years. Migration has driven our policies and economic growth for centuries, and yet we lean in to this reform agenda that is so poisonous to our political rhetoric.
We talk about separate issues. She will be aware of the small boats issue, a tragic issue, and one that we talk about at length when we do not talk about migration as a whole. And I want us to have a sensible debate, and I very much look forward to the honourable ladies contribution because I think she will have a valuable contribution. I thing there will be a valuable contribution to be had from that part of the United Kingdom and the effect that Brexit has had in the area.
I know they are not here, but the Liberal Democrats have traditionally talked about greater decentralisation of government. It is something that we stand on, and I would love to take an intervention from them today, but of course, they are not here. We all said the leader of the Liberal Democrats in Scotland accepts immigration as essential for maintaining growth, but also for sustainability of services, and I will talk about that in a moment. We need both governments to work together on migration to ensure that rules are sensitive to the skills that are needed in every corner of these islands and every sector of the economy.
That is something we can definitely pick up at Committee stage if we can work together. Liberal Democrats also talk about special visas for those fleeing Donald Trump as well. I'm not sure what representations we have made for the government but there are always opportunities to be had, so if I can move on to a point of common ground. We are not all on the same ground. This is something where there are differences, but that is the whole point in parliament, the point in us coming together to find solutions, I do think that sometimes the majority nature of this place does not help.
I can see that Scottish Labour won the election and I congratulate them for that. And I congratulate the prime minister on that. They won the election. But they won the election on a small number of votes, a small percentage of the votes. That is the system that they have, but I would ask them not to make the same mistakes at the Conservative made thinking that gaining 3435% of the vote is not a majority. It might give you a majority seat but they need to listen to other parties, different parts of the countries, and that is crucial, and that is the point that I want to return to with the other sectors.
We can debate and discuss. Even the Conservatives as well. But actually, we all have a responsibility to try to listen to these sectors who are doing such valuable work, and I know we all try to do so in different ways, and attic and stitchery level as well. I was just outside place where I spoke to a farmer and I know other members will be doing something similar about the value that migration has brought to the industry. A number of us will have enjoyed this over our breakfast.
Even Aberdeenshire. All of this depending on migration and I know that members will try wherever they possibly can to engage with local constituents and to listen so that they can do their work in here better. I'm not asking us to come to the same conclusion that it is in that engagement that we seek to do our work better. The tourism sector, The hospitality and tourism industry, vital for rural remote communities, vital for every sector in Scotland and in the UK.
Hospitality and tourism industry across Scotland has been calling for a Scotland visa for some time. We believe it is one of the ways in which we can help address the skills in the workforce shortage that we have in the industry. The Scottish Tourism Alliance says, " A failure to find a tailored solution risks a detrimental impact on the economy and opportunities for economic growth. Staff shortages are leading to tourism and hospitality businesses needing to close for longer outside the summer season, reduced opening hours and shut down certain services such as hotels.
" Regardless of what our thoughts are, you'll see straight away the impact that has on growth. We see the impact it has on the sustainability of our services as well. The Scottish Tourism Alliance also said, "Introducing a Scottish Visa scheme would not only match immigration to demand for certain skills but would also encourage more people to live and work in Scotland particularly in rural and island communities that are expecting a drain in people of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
working age and families. " I will give way. This debate is interesting if
**** Possible New Speaker ****
This debate is interesting if nothing else. If we are encouraging nothing else. If we are encouraging people to live in Scotland or rural Scotland in particular, how does the SNP suggest it is going to be SNP suggest it is going to be achieved? When anyone earning over £28,000 as condos pay more income tax. Local governments have a big shortfall which will impact rural shortfall which will impact rural communities more given the way that money is spent over large areas.
We have a housing crisis announced in Scotland. How will this attract people to Scotland especially rural areas?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm not sure she has been reading
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm not sure she has been reading leaf labour briefings. She makes available point on rural areas I available point on rural areas I know her own fitment to her constituency. I commend her on that and the way she conducts herself in and the way she conducts herself in this place. We think there's a challenge with bringing workers to rural areas, we know that. It is not new. It is why so many rural new. It is why so many rural industries have been crying out for Scottish visa system to plug the gap.
We don't have enough challenge in terms of the threshold, high threshold for bringing people into the country. In terms of the Scottish government policy, I would not expect the Conservative party given the ideological reasons, but we have talked to the Labour Party but having a more progressive tax system whereby those who are earning less pay less, those who are earning more pay more. I'm not going to criticise her because she stood on a manifesto and won her election.
But I'm surprised the Labour Party don't take the opportunity to endorse that more strongly. It is also acknowledged that 70% of the Scottish government's budget still comes in the form of a block grant from Westminster. That is a huge amount. All the talk we have heard of decentralisation of empowerment and other areas, why don't we have a more sensible approach to that? Let me move on to other sectors. I want to talk about two or sectors. I will give way.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The honourable gentleman mentions
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The honourable gentleman mentions rightly the block grant. It is not entirely correct to state is the largest part of the Scottish Government that he voted against it
**** Possible New Speaker ****
when it gave the Scottish Government £4.9 billion extra. What I find striking about that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
What I find striking about that is that the Scottish Government has not just had to take its block not just had to take its block grant, receive it rather than making these decisions for ourselves which is something that those of us on these benches would like to do. But also spent years with Tory austerity staring down the barrel of cuts elsewhere as well. And the Secretary of State might be correct in terms of the cash but we know after years of the Tory government, not helped by the Labour Party, not helped by the cuts as a result of Brexit that they now endorse, the Winter Fuel Allowance, and that the Scottish Government actually brought in an offset to that Winter Fuel Allowance, the bedroom tax, and in response to the Secretary of State chuntering from a sedentary position, which I have always wanted to say.
All these areas that the Scottish Government is offsetting the damage of Westminster policies. For how long do we have to put up with damaging Westminster policies? This bill today if I come back to this bill today, this bill today is a way of offsetting some of the damage that has been done by a hostile environment, by Brexit which I'm astonished daily that the Scottish Labour Party continue to endorse. Let me talk about the Scottish care system. The current UK immigration system and all of us will benefit from the care system at some point, all of us and we all have loved ones to have benefited.
So I think their voice is particularly pertinent. The current UK immigration system is failing Scotland, and the recent rule changes and the incompatible increase in minimum salary threshold exacerbate existing recruitment challenges and poses significant risks to the sustainability and delivery of the care services. If I go on and I talked about one bit to my constituency and I will talk about another bit. The secretary of state and I had an exchange about this. We know the issue of dependence in the care sector has had a significant impact on the higher education sector as well.
I'm glad to see in view of the higher education minister in his place. I refer to my Register of Interests, and we know of the damage that has been done from that dependence perspective and bringing dependence. I will give way before I make
**** Possible New Speaker ****
progress. Carers have written to me, but
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Carers have written to me, but the problem with care is not that we are getting labour from elsewhere it is that we are not paying carers is that we are not paying carers enough. Can I ask the honourable enough. Can I ask the honourable gentleman why the SNP wasted so much money on their failed service, and money on their failed service, and why they spent £28 million rather than working across the house in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
than working across the house in good faith to deliver the care that people need? Order. Can I remind all members that the bill is why Scotland should have devolved powers for immigration.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Chair. I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Chair. I am always struck that the Labour Party never seem to be that keen to Party never seem to be that keen to talk about areas for which they have responsibility. They talk about the responsibility. They talk about the Scottish Government an awful lot were not areas for which they are responsible. This speaks to a specific Scottish solution that can specific Scottish solution that can be brought in to meet Scottish be brought in to meet Scottish particular needs.
And one that's to be fair Scottish Labour have talked about. Let me move on to talk about think tanks and other organisations as well. The Law Society of Scotland have talked about how this would
**** Possible New Speaker ****
work or not. I will give way to the Secretary of State one more time then will move on to these other organisations. I'm grateful because your
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm grateful because your gentlemen has been very generous in giving way. On the bill, on the giving way. On the bill, on the exact bill, all the things he said are not included in the bill. This are not included in the bill. This bill is a simple one line bill which says to devolve the entire says to devolve the entire immigration system to Scotland. For a member who might not know how it a member who might not know how it operates, the Scotland act in schedule five says if it is in schedule five is reserved and if it is not it is deemed to be devolved.
This is devolving the entire
**** Possible New Speaker ****
immigration system so the issue of visas he's talking about are irrelevant. I will thank the secretary of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I will thank the secretary of state for his intervention. I think it was valuable. He raises a good point and I'm glad he is paying point and I'm glad he is paying attention. This is the point I raised at the start of the debate when I said this is not ideal, it is when I said this is not ideal, it is a short bill that was proposed some time ago. And I have said I'm very open to this being amended.
I'm hoping we will vote on this today and I would ask the Secretary of State to meet with me ; sit down with his officials and Home Office officials, and I hope the Secretary of State will make that commitment to meet with me so we get that works for his party, that can work for others and hopefully work for the sector as well. I will take that as a Yes. Thank you for being so productive on this. The honourable
**** Possible New Speaker ****
gentleman Your gentlemen has to be clear
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Your gentlemen has to be clear with the house. The purpose of the with the house. The purpose of the bill, if this bill passes it will Millie move immigration from schedule five of the Scotland act schedule five of the Scotland act 1998, and will devolve immigration to the Scottish Government. Yes or no?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
no? I will answer his point. First of all, the right honourable Member has all, the right honourable Member has been here for longer than me. This is a second reading today, and I said to the media this morning and said it in the letter to Anas Sarwar, and I copied the Secretary of State into that letter as well. I wanted to do that to make sure my letter to the Scottish leader, I'm not sure how often they talk, but I wanted to make sure he had see that as well which talked about us coming together talking to each other and on that point I will give way to the member.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am grateful. I know I am new to Parliament and procedures but he will know from experience when it will know from experience when it comes to Private Members' Bill that they are practically rewritten and they are practically rewritten and drafting committee. If we get to take this to committee, it will be take this to committee, it will be worked out. He has been here since 2010 and understands surely how this works?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Before I call him back in, can I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
remind him interventions are on the person speaking. Now we have clarified that point
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Now we have clarified that point of reference, and I look forward to the vote today that the Secretary of State has committed to. I look State has committed to. I look forward to meeting with him; work together because I think that is the together because I think that is the right thing to do. When he talks about what we want to see, of course we want to see devolution of immigration. We want to see immigration. We want to see independence. We differ from other members in this chamber, we are voted onto different manifestoes.
It voted onto different manifestoes. It is not beyond the wit of man, and to be fair to something that the member has a ready reference, it is not beyond the wit of man to find some common ground. Let me talk about some of the think tanks and other organisations and what they have said. I'm keen to let other members have the opportunity to speak today. Bespoke Visa schemes for Scotland, Madam Deputy Speaker I think that is most effective heckle I've had all day.
It is not where I expect it to come from. The Law Society of Scotland said that bespoke Visa schemes for Scotland combined with expanding activities in relation to immigration, to advertise these new arrangements would be an effective way of ensuring that immigration policy meets Scotland's needs. The SETI supports great effects abilities on Scotland to respond to its distinct demographic and employment needs. Other countries, and this is something that the member has worked on hard, successfully operate regional migration schemes which target specific needs of economies and the SETI means there is a workable option for needs in the UK system.
I option for needs in the UK system. I agree with that. Finally, I want to sit on this, a former Labour councillor, says there is a strong unified voice across all sectors in Scotland in favour of a flexible immigration system that can meet a particular economic workforce population needs. For many years, population needs. For many years, the organisation has been calling for an immigration system that is responsive to local as well as national needs and that recognises and addresses the challenge that we face.
Finally I will go to Reform Scotland because they have done a huge amount of work on this. And I commend them for it. They have said that there is no reason why Westminster cannot create an immigration system which takes Scotland's situation into account. It is important to remember that this has been done before through the fresh talent initiative which in fairness Lord McConnell the Labour executive has worked with the government to do that. I would not be unique in the sense that there are other decentralised approaches elsewhere in the world.
I will pay tribute to the member for Perthshire South who works with other members and they looked into that and I notice something that he will want to talk about. Canada, Australia, Belgium elsewhere have a decentralised approach, so this is The government to talk about devolution, it was a process, not a final destination. This strikes me as being the next process that has happened elsewhere. I want to go to different conversations on migration as well, and I think a number of members want to come in, but I'm
**** Possible New Speaker ****
glad to take an hour. This is an important case about
**** Possible New Speaker ****
This is an important case about the unique needs that there are in Scotland, and the way that things differ, but just going back to the differ, but just going back to the economic point, it is all about growing the economy. Can the member growing the economy. Can the member explained to us that if you explain migration, what is the impact on the migration, what is the impact on the economy and bringing more people in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
jobs in the economy? I'm not an economist, but any economist will tell you that the impact is growth. In the aftermath of leaving the EU, we saw a surge in migration under Boris Johnson's government, and this is something that these members have talked about to criticise Conservative government and what struck me in terms of this debate was that, at the same time we saw a surge in migration, we were seeing a reduction in the rates that we enjoyed as UK citizens.
I may no longer wish to keyhole this but it is devaluation which has impacted on each and every one of us in terms of the loss of those rights, and on that point, before I finalise, I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
know he has been trying to get in. I was interested to hear what was said about experts talking about regional migration policies. My constituency suffered from a regional migration policy in living memory and the Isle of Sheppey was separated from mainland migration during both wars in the last during both wars in the last century. It has left lasting impact century. It has left lasting impact on Sheppey. Deep, profound damage because it was managed in a way that because it was managed in a way that meant that people can get on and off the island.
It has left a deep legacy of mistrust because of the rest of Great Britain. This is something which not want to replicate, and I think this is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
something where I oppose this bill. I know Kent very well. It is the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I know Kent very well. It is the garden of England. The kingdom of garden of England. The kingdom of Kent. It is a fine county. And I know the Isle of Sheppey and some of the challenges that the honourable member talks to Anne's right to raise them, and he is representing raise them, and he is representing constituents very well. I am grateful for raising this issue and the way in which he is raising this the way in which he is raising this issue.
Kent is a fine place. I'm trying to answer your colleagues point. Kent is not Scotland, and this is another point. We have got islands, some fine islands. But they are not the same. To compare them is a false comparison. I take his point that this is the value of these kinds of debates that we can have these exchanges, but the reason why when through all the think tanks, all the experts, but there is such a body of evidence in Scotland around this, and that is why the evidence had such a serious reading from every single party in Scotland as well, and on that point, I will give way.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Does he not agree that it is that strength of agreement across sector in Scotland which leaves so many people disappointed in the fact there are expectations and hopes there are expectations and hopes raised that a change of government in this place would leave to a change of government in migration policy. Does that not make it essential that we are served by powers in relation to this?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I want to see these in Hollywood. We absolutely agree on it, but you can amend, you can change, but this is something that we can do, and I look forward to working with the Secretary of State. I think we can find common ground, but I will finish on a conversation on
**** Possible New Speaker ****
point. I thank the member for giving
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the member for giving way, and he says there is a body of evidence in favour of his bill, but evidence in favour of his bill, but I want to point him to another body of evidence, and that is the fact that you have 100,000 children in Scotland who do not have a home to Scotland who do not have a home to call their own, and at the same time, we have children in schools in Scotland where we have got the widest poverty -related attainment gap ever.
That is the body of evidence that we need to look to, and does he agree that his party would be better off looking at addressing these issues to attract workers to Scotland rather than creating more red tape for businesses.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I am a bit struck that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I am a bit struck that when bringing in bit of growth that will push more children in Scotland into poverty, a Westminster policy that is driving Scottish child property at the same time when you property at the same time when you have UN reports talking about the benefits of the Scottish child payment, if the Scottish child payment, if the Scottish child payment was bought in across the UK, it would take tens of thousands of children including those out of children including those out of poverty.
We know that, and again, I am glad that as a final point because it talks to me of that positive ambition that we have seen from the Labour Party, one that I find disappointing. One that will drive through the cuts to disabled children into poverty whereas if they simply replicated what we did in Scotland with the Scottish payment, there could be benefits throughout the United Kingdom. Now, I look at the countries around us that have taken a more positive approach to European integration and working with other countries, and look at Ireland and the benefits that has had from independence.
The benefits of European integration. Under previous governments, we are now seeing that Being reduced because of the wide-ranging powers that they have had. The country that previously suffered from emigration now benefiting from emigration. That is ambition. That is the benefits that these things can bring, they are right on our doorstep, and it talks to me about the conversation that we have about this. Can we pull out the poison on the immigration debate? Nobody is talking about uncontrolled immigration, and we need to distinguish between immigration and refugees, and maybe on the eve of his funeral, we can reflect on Pope Francis's legacy, something we could all do well to reflect upon, and especially the conversations I have had the have been heartbreaking around those desperate enough to get into small homes to try to cross the channel.
I want to talk about the Scottish Trades Union Congress, and members might do well to listen to the contract. The first Minister is right to highlight the negative effects of pandering to anti- immigration sentiment and the need for a separate Scottish approach. We support additional powers on migration for the Scottish Parliament, serve members opposite won't listen to us or reform Scotland, won't listen to the higher education sector, maybe they will listen to the Trades Union Congress instead. The first Minister was right to push back on the hard right and how we conduct ourselves in office.
We must challenge reform and I'm disappointed they are not here today because I have been generous in taking interventions from different parties who are here. I wish reform were here today. I wish reform were here so we could push back on the rhetoric that too many in this house to offer lean into. This was initially proposed by Michael Gove. This was said to offset Brexit and this is what we got from Michael Gove. We have fewer rights, more isolated, young people with fewer opportunities, hitting public finances, hitting our rights, leaving the UK isolated and vulnerable, more isolated than any other time since the Second World War.
I want to see countries calling and sharing sovereignty. I want to see a European Union that provides a model in the modern age, a European Union that we lean into. The sense of British exceptionalism that this is the only thing out there. It is so small in its outlook, and that is how I describe it, isolated, lonely in its outlook. I want a CS rejoin the European Union. Ireland and England have never had a better relationship in their history than they do now.
Our relationship which is one of partnership, of equals, and previously, within that union that built that, Labour were elected on a small minority. I would say to them that it is time to listen. This bill isn't perfect. I can see that it will not be one for everybody, let's approve this in principle. Let's get it through and then work together on a commitment being made by our party and a commitment by the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Scottish Labour Party. Thank you. The question is that the Bill be now read a second time.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
now read a second time. Thank you. I was just thinking my
10:42
Mr Richard Quigley MP (Isle of Wight West, Labour)
-
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I was just thinking my speech. I think the member. That is 50 minutes we are never going to get 50 minutes we are never going to get back. Even though I rise today, 488 back. Even though I rise today, 488 miles from Scotland, much of what I hear from Scottish colleagues on both sides of this house resonates both sides of this house resonates deeply with me as part of the deeply with me as part of the constituency.
We reflect on fair memories of Scotland with a memories of Scotland with a searching for dolphins, visiting Edinburgh, nuclear submarines, and I have a fund memory of my visit to work with the Scottish office as part of the Cancer trust, an organisation that is fantastic and vital work to rebuild confidence after the battle. It is a powerful reminder that we share common challenges and often share solutions. During these visits, I have always been struck by the warmth and generosity of the people I have met or smaller towns in between.
It is a hospitality that reflects something deeper than just kindness. It speaks to a strong sense of community. Openness, pride, welcoming others. It is that spirit that should be at the heart of any conversation about immigration. Immigration, when done right, should strengthen communities, not divide them. It should reflect the same values I have seen across Scotland in my own community on the Isle of Wight. A desire to offer opportunity, build belonging and contribute to something greater than ourselves.
When I speak to my friends, I hear echoes of my own community on the Isle of Wight, despite the geographical separation. Like them, we are bound with challenges, very services, get to work or school, to receive vital goods and supplies and to access healthcare and essential public services, and like them, we have been let down by broken promises and poor planning. Members in this house will know that I have had many thoughts about the Isle of Wight, but I must admit that when compared to the so-called special ferry fiasco, the situation seems slightly less dire.
For those unfamiliar, back in 2015, the Scottish government awarded a contract to focus on the marine. These were meant to modernise the fleet, improve reliability and serve island routes like the Western Isles.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Isn't what he is listing an example of the incompetence by the example of the incompetence by the SNP that motions like this are SNP that motions like this are simply designed to disguise the people of Scotland? people of Scotland?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am coming to that point. I will give way and I will make some give way and I will make some Here we are in 2025 and now the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
ferry has set sail. Would he care to explain why, if
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Would he care to explain why, if the ferries are such a catastrophe, if they are so bad, why I'd, as a Member of Parliament with more ferries probably than any other constituency in the UK groups constituency in the UK groups together, have been re-elected in together, have been re-elected in 2017, 2019, and 2024 with the largest SNP majority in Scotland? If largest SNP majority in Scotland? If they are that bad, why do the people
**** Possible New Speaker ****
who use the ferries vote SNP? I think I thank the honourable gentleman for his intervention. I'm gentleman for his intervention. I'm sure his constituents will be able to explain why. The project has been to explain why. The project has been to explain why. The project has been plagued by delay after delay at the cost of £360 million and islanders have been left without reliable transport. One vessel is years behind schedule and the other may not set sail until 2026.
And that is not set sail until 2026. And that is the year not the 24 hour clock. This is not just the failure of infrastructure, this is a failure of leadership, accountability, and most of all, a failure of respect for island communities who rely on these lifeline services. And now the SNP asks us to entrust with even greater powers over immigration. Never once while scanning the horizon did I think Scotland should have its separate immigration laws that would
**** Possible New Speaker ****
solve everything. I thank the member. Somehow you
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the member. Somehow you managed to bring ferries into a debate about the Scottish Visa. That is beyond me. Can I ask the member, instead of focusing on the issues that he sees in Scotland with regard that he sees in Scotland with regard to capital projects, why doesn't he talk about some of the capital
**** Possible New Speaker ****
project failures in England as well? Before I call the Ottawa gentlemen, I remind all members this is a debate about why Scotland should have devolved powers for
**** Possible New Speaker ****
immigration. Again I thank the other woman
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Again I thank the other woman before his intervention. I think Madam Deputy Speaker is quite right Madam Deputy Speaker is quite right to keep us on track. The bill fails to account for its impact on the broader internal market. If Scotland is granted the power to admit is granted the power to admit migrants, we are left with a host of unanswered questions. I will give unanswered questions. I will give way shortly. What is the mechanism for managing the flow of people across borders? How would we defend across borders? How would we defend people moving to the UK without
**** Possible New Speaker ****
proper oversight? I thank the member who until two minutes ago was one of the few here minutes ago was one of the few here that I had any time for. He talks that I had any time for. He talks about what a catastrophe it would be if Scotland could control who came to work on our shores, who came to invest in our economy if we could do that unilaterally. Ironically that unilaterally. Ironically forgetting, that is exactly the encumbrance that Scotland exists under now.
We give what England says we can get. It is a disgrace. Defend it now.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I would thank him for his calm and measured intervention, I do believe there is a referendum that believe there is a referendum that we are all aware of. I'm sure I will enjoy chatting to him in the future.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
enjoy chatting to him in the future. On the point my honourable friend
**** Possible New Speaker ****
On the point my honourable friend made earlier, he talked about the flow of people across the border. flow of people across the border. And what this bill has not set out are any controls or mechanisms by which that could be measured. I'd, there was mention, I have a fear that this turns into a debate on a soft and hard border and what this
**** Possible New Speaker ****
means for the UK. And I found this very divisive full stop does he agree with me? I thank him four is intervention.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank him four is intervention. I do, will there be immigration checks at the border? What happens when someone granted immigration when someone granted immigration status in Scotland seeks to work in Newcastle? And who will be verifying Newcastle? And who will be verifying whether someone is subject to Scotland immigration will? These are real logistical and administrative real logistical and administrative challenges. I will make progress and challenges. I will make progress and come back. These are not theoretical concerns, they are real logistical and administrative challenges.
Without clarity and coordination, businesses across the UK could be forced to navigate a confusing patchwork of immigration adds unnecessary complexity and cost to the workforce.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the woman before giving way. He talks about the challenges way. He talks about the challenges of putting a system across Scotland of putting a system across Scotland England border. This is not difficult with technology. With the difficult with technology. With the honourable Member agree that it can honourable Member agree that it can be quite easily achieved. If we can achieve the arrangers we have with Ireland at the moment with the Ireland at the moment with the Common Travel Area, how could that possibly not work in terms of a regional immigration system?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
You are asking us to take a leap of faith. The bill is one line. If you have the answers to those you have the answers to those already referendum result may well already referendum result may well have been different. It could create uncertainty for employers particularly in sectors that rely on a flexible and diverse labour a flexible and diverse labour markets. Like construction, healthcare, and agriculture. I have similarities with my own similarities with my own constituency, but if I suggested the Isle of Wight and its own Isle of Wight and its own immigration laws, they would beg me to talk more about ferries.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank my honourable friend for his excellent speech. He makes a his excellent speech. He makes a very pertinent point, there are parts of the United Kingdom outside of Scotland that also are suffering of Scotland that also are suffering with demographic challenges. One is Stoke-on-Trent but to suggest it Stoke-on-Trent but to suggest it should have its own Visa immigration policy to solve that is for the birds. Given that the last government left record high numbers of inward migration into this of inward migration into this country, as he agree with me that part of this is about how you make
**** Possible New Speaker ****
it more attractive to work in the spaces not simply rewriting the system for your benefit? I agree with him entirely. While
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I agree with him entirely. While this bill clearly seeks to help and support employers in Scotland with workforce issues, consideration must workforce issues, consideration must also be given to employers in also be given to employers in England who don't want an extra layer of bureaucracy added to their recruitment processes. This bill does not explain how a devolved system would integrate with existing national framework. It is one thing to talk about devolving powers but where is the clarity on how this new system would coexist with the broader UK immigration process? Without these answers the risk creating more confusion than solutions.
Businesses, local
**** Possible New Speaker ****
governments, and migrants alike. Does he agree with me, given that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Does he agree with me, given that the SNP have failed to deal with services in Scotland that we should be able to control it?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
be able to control it? I agree. Let's be clear setting up a separate immigration system in Scotland would not come free or Scotland would not come free or cheap. We are talking about creating entirely new departments, new staff, new infrastructure, IT systems, and new infrastructure, IT systems, and likely new border controls. All of which will need to be designed, staff, and maintain. Who is footing the bill of this bureaucratic expansion? Ordinary working people across the whole of the UK. Let's not forget that immigration is already a complex and resource intensive process with a single UK
Mr Richard Quigley MP (Isle of Wight West, Labour)
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I was just thinking my speech. I think the member. That is 50 minutes we are never going to get 50 minutes we are never going to get back. Even though I rise today, 488 back. Even though I rise today, 488 miles from Scotland, much of what I hear from Scottish colleagues on both sides of this house resonates both sides of this house resonates deeply with me as part of the deeply with me as part of the constituency.
We reflect on fair memories of Scotland with a memories of Scotland with a searching for dolphins, visiting Edinburgh, nuclear submarines, and I have a fund memory of my visit to work with the Scottish office as part of the Cancer trust, an organisation that is fantastic and vital work to rebuild confidence after the battle. It is a powerful reminder that we share common challenges and often share solutions. During these visits, I have always been struck by the warmth and generosity of the people I have met or smaller towns in between.
It is a hospitality that reflects something deeper than just kindness. It speaks to a strong sense of community. Openness, pride, welcoming others. It is that spirit that should be at the heart of any conversation about immigration. Immigration, when done right, should strengthen communities, not divide them. It should reflect the same values I have seen across Scotland in my own community on the Isle of Wight. A desire to offer opportunity, build belonging and contribute to something greater than ourselves.
When I speak to my friends, I hear echoes of my own community on the Isle of Wight, despite the geographical separation. Like them, we are bound with challenges, very services, get to work or school, to receive vital goods and supplies and to access healthcare and essential public services, and like them, we have been let down by broken promises and poor planning. Members in this house will know that I have had many thoughts about the Isle of Wight, but I must admit that when compared to the so-called special ferry fiasco, the situation seems slightly less dire.
For those unfamiliar, back in 2015, the Scottish government awarded a contract to focus on the marine. These were meant to modernise the fleet, improve reliability and serve island routes like the Western Isles.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Isn't what he is listing an example of the incompetence by the example of the incompetence by the SNP that motions like this are SNP that motions like this are simply designed to disguise the people of Scotland? people of Scotland?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am coming to that point. I will give way and I will make some give way and I will make some Here we are in 2025 and now the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
ferry has set sail. Would he care to explain why, if
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Would he care to explain why, if the ferries are such a catastrophe, if they are so bad, why I'd, as a Member of Parliament with more ferries probably than any other constituency in the UK groups constituency in the UK groups together, have been re-elected in together, have been re-elected in 2017, 2019, and 2024 with the largest SNP majority in Scotland? If largest SNP majority in Scotland? If they are that bad, why do the people
**** Possible New Speaker ****
who use the ferries vote SNP? I think I thank the honourable gentleman for his intervention. I'm gentleman for his intervention. I'm sure his constituents will be able to explain why. The project has been to explain why. The project has been to explain why. The project has been plagued by delay after delay at the cost of £360 million and islanders have been left without reliable transport. One vessel is years behind schedule and the other may not set sail until 2026.
And that is not set sail until 2026. And that is the year not the 24 hour clock. This is not just the failure of infrastructure, this is a failure of leadership, accountability, and most of all, a failure of respect for island communities who rely on these lifeline services. And now the SNP asks us to entrust with even greater powers over immigration. Never once while scanning the horizon did I think Scotland should have its separate immigration laws that would
**** Possible New Speaker ****
solve everything. I thank the member. Somehow you
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the member. Somehow you managed to bring ferries into a debate about the Scottish Visa. That is beyond me. Can I ask the member, instead of focusing on the issues that he sees in Scotland with regard that he sees in Scotland with regard to capital projects, why doesn't he talk about some of the capital
**** Possible New Speaker ****
project failures in England as well? Before I call the Ottawa gentlemen, I remind all members this is a debate about why Scotland should have devolved powers for
**** Possible New Speaker ****
immigration. Again I thank the other woman
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Again I thank the other woman before his intervention. I think Madam Deputy Speaker is quite right Madam Deputy Speaker is quite right to keep us on track. The bill fails to account for its impact on the broader internal market. If Scotland is granted the power to admit is granted the power to admit migrants, we are left with a host of unanswered questions. I will give unanswered questions. I will give way shortly. What is the mechanism for managing the flow of people across borders? How would we defend across borders? How would we defend people moving to the UK without
**** Possible New Speaker ****
proper oversight? I thank the member who until two minutes ago was one of the few here minutes ago was one of the few here that I had any time for. He talks that I had any time for. He talks about what a catastrophe it would be if Scotland could control who came to work on our shores, who came to invest in our economy if we could do that unilaterally. Ironically that unilaterally. Ironically forgetting, that is exactly the encumbrance that Scotland exists under now.
We give what England says we can get. It is a disgrace. Defend it now.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I would thank him for his calm and measured intervention, I do believe there is a referendum that believe there is a referendum that we are all aware of. I'm sure I will enjoy chatting to him in the future.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
enjoy chatting to him in the future. On the point my honourable friend
**** Possible New Speaker ****
On the point my honourable friend made earlier, he talked about the flow of people across the border. flow of people across the border. And what this bill has not set out are any controls or mechanisms by which that could be measured. I'd, there was mention, I have a fear that this turns into a debate on a soft and hard border and what this
**** Possible New Speaker ****
means for the UK. And I found this very divisive full stop does he agree with me? I thank him four is intervention.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank him four is intervention. I do, will there be immigration checks at the border? What happens when someone granted immigration when someone granted immigration status in Scotland seeks to work in Newcastle? And who will be verifying Newcastle? And who will be verifying whether someone is subject to Scotland immigration will? These are real logistical and administrative real logistical and administrative challenges. I will make progress and challenges. I will make progress and come back. These are not theoretical concerns, they are real logistical and administrative challenges.
Without clarity and coordination, businesses across the UK could be forced to navigate a confusing patchwork of immigration adds unnecessary complexity and cost to the workforce.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the woman before giving way. He talks about the challenges way. He talks about the challenges of putting a system across Scotland of putting a system across Scotland England border. This is not difficult with technology. With the difficult with technology. With the honourable Member agree that it can honourable Member agree that it can be quite easily achieved. If we can achieve the arrangers we have with Ireland at the moment with the Ireland at the moment with the Common Travel Area, how could that possibly not work in terms of a regional immigration system?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
You are asking us to take a leap of faith. The bill is one line. If you have the answers to those you have the answers to those already referendum result may well already referendum result may well have been different. It could create uncertainty for employers particularly in sectors that rely on a flexible and diverse labour a flexible and diverse labour markets. Like construction, healthcare, and agriculture. I have similarities with my own similarities with my own constituency, but if I suggested the Isle of Wight and its own Isle of Wight and its own immigration laws, they would beg me to talk more about ferries.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank my honourable friend for his excellent speech. He makes a his excellent speech. He makes a very pertinent point, there are parts of the United Kingdom outside of Scotland that also are suffering of Scotland that also are suffering with demographic challenges. One is Stoke-on-Trent but to suggest it Stoke-on-Trent but to suggest it should have its own Visa immigration policy to solve that is for the birds. Given that the last government left record high numbers of inward migration into this of inward migration into this country, as he agree with me that part of this is about how you make
**** Possible New Speaker ****
it more attractive to work in the spaces not simply rewriting the system for your benefit? I agree with him entirely. While
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I agree with him entirely. While this bill clearly seeks to help and support employers in Scotland with workforce issues, consideration must workforce issues, consideration must also be given to employers in also be given to employers in England who don't want an extra layer of bureaucracy added to their recruitment processes. This bill does not explain how a devolved system would integrate with existing national framework. It is one thing to talk about devolving powers but where is the clarity on how this new system would coexist with the broader UK immigration process? Without these answers the risk creating more confusion than solutions.
Businesses, local
**** Possible New Speaker ****
governments, and migrants alike. Does he agree with me, given that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Does he agree with me, given that the SNP have failed to deal with services in Scotland that we should be able to control it?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
be able to control it? I agree. Let's be clear setting up a separate immigration system in Scotland would not come free or Scotland would not come free or cheap. We are talking about creating entirely new departments, new staff, new infrastructure, IT systems, and new infrastructure, IT systems, and likely new border controls. All of which will need to be designed, staff, and maintain. Who is footing the bill of this bureaucratic expansion? Ordinary working people across the whole of the UK. Let's not forget that immigration is already a complex and resource intensive process with a single UK