The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for winding up for the Liberal Democrats and the noble Lord, Lord Benyon, for winding up for His Majesty’s Opposition.
Before we begin, I will say that we will all have been shocked to learn of the soldier who was attacked in uniform earlier this week in Kent. Our thoughts are with him and his family at this time. My department is working closely with Kent Police to support their investigations, and I am sure we all send our best wishes to the soldier and his family.
Today’s debate concludes six days of debate on His Majesty’s gracious Speech. I have not read every word, but most of what I have read has been informed by the insight and wisdom of your Lordships’ House.
I apologise if I do not respond to every single question today. Obviously, I will write where appropriate, as I have already said to one noble Baroness, but it might be appropriate if in September I hold a meeting where people can come and see where we have got to on particular points they have made that they feel may not have been taken forward as much as possible—and, indeed, where sometimes I may have to go to find further information out. If we do that, we have had a good debate but we have also seen how we can more effectively inform government policy, even perhaps sometimes where we obviously disagree. That is an offer that I make to noble Lords as we go forward.
I also thank my predecessors. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, is here and spoke with customary wisdom and insight. It has been a privilege working with her and I know we will continue working together in different ways. Will she pass on my best wishes to the noble Earl, Lord Minto, who cannot be with us today? In the work I am doing in the department, I am building on the foundations that they laid, in the very office that they were in. Certainly, I will build on that.
To answer one of the noble Baroness’s questions on international development and the White Paper she referred to, it is our intention to take that forward and we are looking at how we might do that. On the clean power alliance, we will bring together a coalition of countries at the cutting edge of climate action. Again, we will ensure that we are doing everything we can to take that forward.
I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for her customary courtesy and the remarks she made, in particular about SMEs and opportunity. I say to her that SMEs have every possibility of contributing to the SDR with my noble friend Lord Robertson. I hope that she could put that to her contacts.
I hope that noble Lords opposite can pass on my thanks to the noble Lords, Lord Cameron and Lord Ahmad, who was here earlier in the debate. He was a template for how to operate in your Lordships’ House. I know he will contribute in other ways, but I think it would be appropriate if that was passed on. I will endeavour to replicate his openness and courtesy.
Today’s debate shows that we have some differences, but we are all united in the defence of freedom, democracy, human rights and the international rules-based order. We will defend that, with our allies in Europe and across the globe. One thing that should come from this debate today is that, whatever questions we have about government policy with respect to particular regions or aspects of defence, the world and our allies should know, in Europe and beyond, that this country stands firm in the defence of those values and we will work with others to defend them, as we should.
Our country has demonstrated this just recently. Sometimes in our debates, we forget the fact that our democracy is shown as an example of how power changes hands through a vote, with one Government being replaced by another. For all we have discussed in this House today, we should be thankful for that democracy, often won through war and through the defence of those freedoms, as many noble Lords will know better than me. We should reflect on that today and be proud of the example we set across the world.
I say to the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, that that should not be lost. One of the things we stand for is religious freedom across the world—the Archbishop reminded us of this in his remarks—not just for a Church of England or a Christian faith, but for faiths united across the world. That was a very important contribution that the most reverend Primate made to the debate, supported of course by his colleague, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester, who worked on earlier reports as Bishop of Truro and now as Bishop of Winchester. They both made really significant contributions, and it is important we remember all of that.
I will also just say to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester, who made his valedictory speech, that the contributions he has made have been welcomed by all in your Lordships’ House. I wish him well in whatever comes. In his contribution—and a number of other noble Lords mentioned this, including the noble Lord, Lord Purvis—he mentioned the importance of spending 0.7% on international development. He will know, as others will, that this Government have an objective of getting back to 0.7% as soon as we fiscally can. That is the aim of this Government.
The first duty of any Government is to keep the country safe. I pay tribute to the brave men and women of our Armed Forces, our veterans, and the families who support them. Theirs is the ultimate public service. As noble Lords have debated on many occasions, and as the Defence Secretary set out in the Commons last week, these are serious and challenging times. This Parliament meets at a moment when there is war in Europe, conflict in the Middle East, growing Russian aggression and increasing global threats. The conventional and hybrid threats we face from hostile states have continued to grow and morph. Our institutions, public services, businesses and universities, and our very democracy, have faced a growing barrage of cyberattacks and disinformation. The darkening global landscape requires us to be focused and determined as a Government, and it requires Britain to stay strong and connected.
We started by talking about the SDR. Last week, the Prime Minister launched a root and branch strategic defence review to make Britain secure at home and strong abroad. It will be overseen by the Defence Secretary and led, as we have heard, by the former NATO Secretary-General, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, a Member of this House, supported by General Sir Richard Barrons and Dr Fiona Hill. It will be delivered at pace, reporting in the first half of 2025, with work starting immediately, in recognition of the urgency of the threats facing the UK. We have tasked it to consider those threats—the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised this—as well as the capabilities we need to address them and the state of our Armed Forces and the resources available.
This is to be Britain’s review, not just the Government’s. We will consult widely across the defence community and are keen that everyone who wants to, including every Member of this House, can contribute should they wish. It would be nonsense for us not to draw on the expertise and experience of this House. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, reminded us, this review gives us a real opportunity to move forward, to take stock of where we are, to look at the threats that have emerged from Ukraine and elsewhere, and to move on from that.
As the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, we need to address the changing face of warfare—to address not last the last war but the next war. We need to be strong and determined in finding a way to meet those threats; that is in all our interests. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Peach—I know he had to apologise for leaving—pointed out that we need to learn the lessons of Ukraine now. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, mentioned the technologies of the future, artificial intelligence and where that will take us. We need to understand all of that. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, said that we need to protect that, in an appropriate way, from those who would look at it and do us harm. But that should not stop us trying to take that forward.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith—although this was raised by a number of other noble Lords—that the nuclear deterrent remains sacrosanct within that review, and we and those who listen to our debates should remember that. The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, mentioned AUKUS, which remains sacrosanct within that. It is an important alliance for us and we will take it forward, as well, obviously, as our support for Ukraine. We also mentioned the global combat aircraft, and I repeated the Government’s position that we continue to progress on that. But, alongside all these programmes, my noble friend’s strategic defence review will take place. That gives us the opportunity to move forward.
We talked about defence spending, and in his excellent speech, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, rightly challenged the Government. So did the noble Baronesses, Lady Goldie and Lady Smith, my noble friend Lord West, the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Robathan, and many others. But we are determined, and it is a tough choice to say, “We will do what is fiscally responsible. We will do what we think we are able to do”. So, we have made a cast-iron commitment to move to 2.5% of GDP. I know everyone will then say, “Why don’t you make it 3%? Why not 3.2%?” We are being fiscally responsible, saying we will operate on the basis of 2.5% of GDP. But the crucial point is that we want the SDR to tell us where that money should be spent and what capabilities we should use to meet the threats as we go forward.
It seems to me to be common sense that if you have a review that is telling you what you need to develop and what you need to spend your money on to meet those threats, you wait for that review to start to tell you the answers to those questions rather than your Lordships coming to me in a year, two years, three years or four years, asking, “Why have you spent money on a project that doesn’t meet the threats that this country faces?” That is the argument that the Government are making. It is not trying to delay or fudge; it is not trying to pull the wool over anybody’s eyes. It is simply saying that we want to move forward in way that is acceptable.
Many of your Lordships have raised Ukraine and NATO. Again, we have laid out our position time and again, and we are grateful for the support from His Majesty’s Opposition with respect to Ukraine. As many noble Lords have pointed out, the front line of our defence of freedom as it stands is what is happening with respect to Ukraine. That is why the Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary and so many senior members of government and senior politicians from across this Parliament have gone to Ukraine, spoken to Ukrainians and supported them with respect to the war that they are fighting. It needs to be said again and again to the British people—not just to the British politicians but to the people of this country and Europe and freedom-loving peoples across the world—that the defence of what they enjoy is taking place in Ukraine. That is why the announcement of £3 billion every year to continue to support them is very important.
A number of your Lordships, including the noble Lords, Lord Jay and Lord Jopling, and many others, talked about the importance of the United States and NATO. The United States is crucial to us. Whoever the American President is, we will need to try to work with them in the defence of the things that are important to us. That is the history that we have, and it will be the history that we need to take forward. It is a matter for the American people who that person is, but we will need to work with them, whoever it is. The one calculation that Putin made when he attacked Ukraine was that NATO would fracture, splinter and disappear, but he got it wrong, because rather than it weakening NATO, it strengthened it. Who would have predicted Sweden and Finland joining? But they did. They did it not as an aggressive act—NATO is not an aggressive alliance; it is a defensive one, and we should be proud that NATO is standing tall for the freedoms and liberties that we all stand for.
NATO is really effective. It highlights many of the defensive alliances that we have across the world. Many of your Lordships have raised alliances, including the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and the noble Lords, Lord Stone, Lord Newby, Lord St John, Lord Swire and Lord Bilimoria. We cannot defend those alliances and the freedoms that I have been speaking about without our allies, not just in Europe but across the world, or tackle issues in the Indo-Pacific and with respect to China, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on many occasions.
I say to the noble Lord that I do not know fully exactly what the Government are now doing with respect to Hikvision. I will have a look at that and write to him. I will find that out and put it in the Library, because the noble Lord has raised it on numerous occasions. He will know that the Government’s policy is to co-operate, to challenge and to—I have forgotten the third one; whatever the third one is. My noble friend cannot remember either. I shall have a look and tell you before the end.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
It is to compete. To co-operate with, challenge and compete with China is essential. The important point that I want to make to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is that obviously we will compete with them, and obviously we will co-operate, but we will challenge and we will stand up to China where necessary with respect to freedoms in Hong Kong and calling for the release of people as appropriate. I say that to him, because I know that he cares deeply and represents an opinion. But the “challenge” bit is really important.
With respect to the Middle East, which is of incredible importance to all of that, within a fortnight of being appointed, our Foreign Secretary travelled to Israel and to the Occupied Palestinian Territories to play our part in efforts towards long-term peace and security in the Middle East. We are calling for an immediate ceasefire, the immediate release of all hostages and the protection of civilians, as well as the unfettered access that is needed to increase humanitarian aid into Gaza rapidly. The Foreign Secretary met families of hostages, including those with links to the UK, and he announced a further £5.5 million this year to fund the charity UK-Med’s life-saving work.
UNRWA has been fully funded, or the funding has been restored. I will just say to the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, that we have been assured by the UN that the concerns that were raised, and the very serious matters raised with respect to employees’ involvement in the attacks on 7 October, have been dealt with.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, that there is no equivalence between Hamas and the Israeli Government. That is our position, as it was the position of the last Government. I know that the noble Lord is, rightly, extremely exercised about that—but I say clearly again, because I know that it is of immense importance to him and to lots of other Members of your Lordships’ House, that there is no equivalence. I am sorry for repeating that, but it is really important. There is no equivalence between Hamas and the Israeli Government, and I hope that that reassures him and reassures many of the people he speaks to with respect to that.
As I said, we need a further meeting. There are many other points of principle that need to be discussed, not least the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, about women, the work that she has been doing in Brazil and our attendance at the summit. That point about violence against women and girls is absolutely fundamental to everything that we do. Other noble Lords made points about the importance of the Commonwealth, and the various conferences coming up with respect to that are really important as well.
I conclude by saying that our debate reflects a startling global landscape and many complex and urgent challenges. We are living in an increasingly volatile and dangerous age, with rapidly evolving technology, which is simultaneously being used to undermine us and make us stronger. While the landscape is dark, the future is bright. I know that the wisdom in this House will be a valuable asset to the Government as we reconnect with our allies, forge new partnerships and advance our progressive values, upholding human rights and international law at home and abroad and delivering security and prosperity for Britain and its allies. That is something that we have done throughout our history, of which we are all proud and in which we are all united. That is the message that is to be heard from this Chamber today—so let it ring out to freedom-loving peoples across Europe and the rest of the world. We will never stand idly by as those treasured freedoms are challenged. With our allies across the globe, we will defend them and deter aggression. In that effort, all of us from every corner of this Chamber are united, and that should be heard loud and clear.