The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to what has been a very insightful debate. I will try to respond to most of the points raised and, in the usual manner, will extend courtesies on any specific questions that I am not able to answer in the time allocated. I join others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, for tabling this debate.
Before I go any further into what is in front of me, I want to reflect on points made by my noble friends Lord Ranger and Lady Verma. A nation’s rich diversity reflects its strength—a point alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Collins—and our country is reflective of exactly that quality. At a time when we celebrate our first Prime Minister of the Hindu faith, it is amusing for me—as someone of the Muslim faith whose heritage extends to India on my paternal and maternal sides—that in the case of our Prime Minister, who is Hindu by faith, his maternal and paternal sides extend to modern-day Pakistan, in Gujranwala. That shows the rich diversity but also the hope and opportunity that lie in the relationships and the importance of bridge building between communities, not just here in the United Kingdom but across the Indian subcontinent—an area I know well, both through my personal links and, importantly, as the Minister responsible for that region.
I agree totally with the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that here in the UK we pride ourselves on speaking out whenever we see a violation of human rights, anywhere in the world and on whatever issue. The greatest challenge we all face is when we stand up on human rights violations that are reflective not of our own values, personal beliefs or religion but those of others. That is the real test. I often say that being the Minister for Human Rights for the United Kingdom is the proudest part of my brief but also, arguably, the most challenging.
My noble friend Lady Verma talked of her strong advocacy for human rights. On a personal level, I have experienced that for well over 25 years. She has been a guardian of my personal human rights in all aspects of my life. Examples in all noble Lords’ contributions demonstrate how live we are to these important issues. I therefore align myself with the principles and values that have been a thread—a human rights golden thread, if I can put it that way—through every contribution.
As we have made clear time and again, including in our integrated review, open societies and human rights should and do remain a priority for the United Kingdom, as the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Collins, rightly pointed out. Our security and prosperity are best served by a world in which democratic societies flourish and fundamental human rights are protected and, indeed, strengthened.
I turn to India. Many are rightly proud of their country’s inclusive institutions, Governments, rich history and constitution. That is important. I have always said that when we approach the issue of human rights and seek to raise it, wherever that may be in the world, we must apply the lens of the challenges and where a country is on its human rights journey at that point in time. As we heard earlier from my noble friend Lord Ranger, who would have been in this Room 105 years ago? There would be no women and arguably no people of other faiths or people openly professing their sexuality. That shows that our own country has been on a journey when it comes to human rights. Therefore, it is right that we look at a country’s journey but also its institutions and constitutions and the protections it affords. Just as we are proud of our democracy and institutions here in the UK, I know from direct engagement with the Government of India, including on the issue of human rights, how proud they are of their constitutions and institutions as protectors and guardians of human rights.
Our values and our vibrant democracies sit at the heart of the UK-India comprehensive strategic partnership and our 2030 road map for future relations. The road map, which several noble Lords alluded to, guides our co-operation and covers all aspects of our multifaceted relationship. We set out our shared belief in the importance of democratic norms and principles, and respect for universal human rights. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has underlined the importance of protecting human rights.
I assure the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, that we do raise human rights issues and the consular cases he referred to, including the case of Mr Johal. I know on how many occasions I raised that during my time as Minister for India. We need to ensure that we raise the rights of British citizens who are held. Equally, when we raise human rights we do so in a constructive and candid manner. The strength of our relationship with India allows us to do so.
We know that India is the world’s largest democracy and has long traditions, but we look to India to uphold all freedoms and rights guaranteed in its constitution, as with all democracies including ours. Indeed, that is the analysis and the point that I expect to be put about our own values and human rights here in the United Kingdom.
The United Kingdom engages with India on a range of human rights issues. Of course, we recognise the nature of the human rights situation across India. As my noble friend Lady Verma pointed out, India is not a homogenous country. It has so many religions and cultures. I will stand corrected if I am wrong, but I think there are still more Muslims in India than there are in either Pakistan or Bangladesh. That shows the rich diversity of the nation when it comes to religion. There are constitutional protections for places of worship. Indeed, the 1989 constitutional protection for places of worship stands very strongly. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, that we have a wide network through our high commission, Ministers and our network of deputy high commissions because of the nature and breadth of India. Indeed, we recently heard that India will become the most populous country in the world.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, spoke about strengthening ties with civil society. The noble Lord, Lord Hussain, mentioned Amnesty International and other human rights groups. Only earlier this week I met with human rights groups as part of my regular engagement with them to ensure that their concerns, which are sometimes aired privately on specific issues, can be highlighted so that we can take them up constructively with Governments around the world, including the Indian Government. Recently I spoke with the high commissioner of India; human rights form a regular part of that dialogue.
As today’s debate has shown, it is clear that Kashmir is a topic close to the hearts of many. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, spoke very personally about his ties across the line of control. We are lucky to have 1.7 million British citizens of Indian heritage living here in the UK, and a similar number with Pakistani heritage. There is sometimes even an argument about who qualifies under which category, which perhaps shows the strong, binding nature of cultural ties between the two countries. India and Pakistan are long-standing and important friends of the United Kingdom, and we have significant links with both countries, particularly through the diaspora communities.
The Government take the situation, and the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, very seriously. He talked about resolutions, as did the noble Lord, Lord Collins. Our position remains exactly as before: it is for India and Pakistan to find a lasting political resolution, taking into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. It is not for the United Kingdom to prescribe a solution or to act as a mediator. This position is not new; it has been the consistent position of successive British Governments.
We welcomed the renewal of the ceasefire along the line of control in February last year, and we encourage both sides to find lasting diplomatic solutions to maintain regional stability. At a time when people often talk about problems, I always look at the challenges we face and the role that the United Kingdom can play in terms of opportunity and hope. I know that my noble friend Lord Ranger has visited and knows this quite directly. The Kartarpur corridor provides a profound example of what can be achieved with the right intent between two Governments doing something for the right reasons.
Human rights concerns in India-administered Kashmir are raised with me, as they are about Pakistan-administered Kashmir. As I said, we raise these directly with the respective Governments of India and Pakistan. I assure noble Lords that these form part of our bilateral relationships as well.
The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Hussain, talked about human rights in negotiations and the trade agreement with India. The Government’s international obligations and commitments, including on human rights, will remain paramount when we make decisions on all trading relations. We are also clear that more trade will not come at the expense of workers or the environment.
While trade discussions continue, I assure noble Lords that as we discuss the importance of strengthening our road map, whether on trade, investment, technological co-operation or improving lives and livelihoods in India and the UK, the issue of lives and livelihoods is intrinsically tied to the whole concept of human rights. We continue to engage on an ambitious free trade agreement.
The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, talked about the Diwali agreement. There is good progress on many chapters and we will continue to discuss these issues directly. Indeed, my right honourable friend did so with External Affairs Minister Jaishankar during his recent visit to India.
There have been other areas of partnership with India over recent years, including co-operation over Covid-19 and the co-operation we have had on trade, education partnerships and climate change. Those areas will continue to be raised.
The noble Lord, Lord Hussain, raised some specific issues on the human rights report. I am proud that we produce reports on this issue. The noble Lord asked about other countries, including India. The decision on whether a country is designated in that report is based on the trajectory of change, the UK’s potential work on human rights and where we have influence. At this time, we judge that it is not appropriate to designate India in the human rights report. However, as I said—I emphasise this point—where we have concerns, we will raise them.
My noble friend Lord Ranger raised the issue of the Kashmiri Pandits. Of course, that is important. As we look at human rights issues, we need to be consistent across the piece. I assure my noble friend that those issues form part and parcel of our engagement.
This is extremely important. I am sure we will return to issues of human rights across the world—including very shortly in our next debate. I welcome our continued engagement on this issue. India matters to the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom matters to India. Our relationship with India, as democracies and friends, is built on important pillars, such as strengthening trade. We are two key democracies where the rule of law matters and we will continue to have candid, constructive exchanges on issues of human rights. That will remain an important pillar in our relationships. This matters to me and to all noble Lords who have expressed their views today. It matters to the United Kingdom and, from my engagement with our partners and friends in India, I can assure noble Lords that it matters to India as well.
The Earl of Sandwich (CB)
As we have a minute or two in reserve, can I just ask a factual question? The Minister cannot answer for the Department for International Trade, clearly, but it would be interesting to know how often on the present trade deal the Foreign Office has intervened. Have there been formal occasions or is it just in chance meetings through the year?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
I assure the noble Earl that on every FTA we have a very integrated approach with our colleagues in DIT. When we need to raise these issues directly, these are not chance meetings. We are quite structured in our approach, whether through diplomacy or trade.