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Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak before you this afternoon, Mrs Main. I join others in congratulating the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) on securing this debate. I also congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) on actually getting this practice on to the statute book in 2016.
I will just add, very briefly, to what has been said so far. It is great that there is consensus this afternoon across the parties, and that kind of consensus is what I have encountered in many of the discussions that I have had on these issues. I hope that the Government will listen and act on that consensus in a way that would win support among the vast majority of Members of this House and outside this House. My only quarrel with the hon. Member for Amber Valley is that I do not think that would be taking unilateral action; I think we would be showing bold leadership if we were the first to act in this area.
I want to make three brief points. First, one issue arising from the Paradise papers that has not been raised, and for which country-by-country reporting would be an important part of the answer, is that corporations and companies were revealed to be seeking locations for their business in a way that would create artificial financial structures that existed simply for the purpose of avoiding tax. Apple received some coverage in the papers, but it is utterly awful that all Apple’s activity outside the USA is now housed, I think, in Jersey and is worth, according to what we can uncover, £252 billion. It is very difficult to find what Apple’s rate of tax is, but one of its companies—according to the European Union, I think; no doubt my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds) will make this clear from the Front Bench—ended up paying a rate of tax of 0.005% on its earnings here.
It is clear from the Paradise papers that Apple sought to find a financial structure that would allow it to avoid paying tax in those jurisdictions outside America where it carried out its economic activity and secured its profits. One of the purposes of transparency in country-by-country reporting would be to see where Apple was undertaking its economic activity and therefore where it should be taxed. Over half of Apple’s business is outside the USA; it is simply not getting taxed in the places that it should be.
The other company is Nike. Anyone who buys a pair of Nike trainers in any UK shop would think that the tax was paid here, but it is not. It used to go to Holland and it then ended up, in a complicated way, in Bermuda. Since then, a new structure has been invented: Nike Innovate C.V. It is a virtual entity; it does not have a location. It is not based anywhere. That structure enables Nike to avoid paying the tax that it should in the jurisdictions where it carries out its business and makes its profits. The big corporations would not be able to carry out their business in the way they currently do, as revealed most recently through the Paradise papers, if we had transparent, open, public country-by-country reporting.
The second thing I want to talk about is collecting money from tax avoidance. I hope the Minister will give us a bit of information in his response, as I am rather tired of hearing from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Minister about how brilliantly this Government are doing at collecting that money.
Dame Margaret Hodge
The Minister is nodding his head, but the Government should be honest with us. The figure of £160 billion that is currently used—I have heard it used time and time again—is simply an HMRC estimate of the money due from tax avoidance that it has uncovered. It does not tell us how much has been collected or how much has been added to the coffers.
Since the Minister used the figure in a debate last week, I have tried to identify how much we have actually got in. I have asked everybody. I have asked the National Audit Office and the Library. I have tabled questions to the Minister, to which he has yet to reply—perhaps he will reply this afternoon. No one actually tells one how much has been collected in tax avoidance. My guess is that it is a tiny, minute amount of that £160 billion that the Government claim they have got in. Please be honest with us. A little bit of honesty will enable us to have a proper debate.
The final point I want to make, adding to what others have said, is that if the Minister showed the bold leadership we want him to show by having public registers of beneficial ownership, he would be incredibly popular. I would have thought that there could not be a better time than now for Conservative Members to try to gain some popularity. I will give three examples of what has happened recently. After the release of the Paradise papers, the Tax Justice Network launched a petition that gained more than 200,000 signatures. It has now presented that petition to Downing Street. Oxfam did some polling that showed that eight out of 10 members of the public think that multinationals with UK headquarters should publish information publicly about the size of their profits, where they are made, what taxes are paid and the countries in which they operate. Some 70% of Conservative voters believe that the Government should be more active in tackling tax avoidance by companies. Some 80% of Conservative voters are in favour of tougher transparency rules for companies.
The final survey I wanted to refer to was of the FTSE 100. Four out of every five of the top 100 FTSE companies would not oppose the introduction of a legal requirement to make their country-by-country reports public. In fact, a large number would support it. The hon. Member for Amber Valley eloquently made the point that the reporting requirements in other legislation to date are pretty open. Why not put this requirement into the mix? It is supported by the analysis.
This is the fourth debate on these issues in the past month that I have participated in, and I will carry on holding such debates time and time again. I am sorry if the Minister feels it is not the best use of his time, but we will carry on doing this. This is a campaign we are absolutely determined to win, and part of that campaign is public country-by-country reporting.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) for having secured what I think we all accept is an extremely important debate. I also thank him for the advice he has been able to give me over the months and years on matters as exciting as corporate taxation.
I also welcome my hon. Friend’s support for some of the measures in today’s Budget—this is not an area of Government policy that we are going to be neglecting anytime soon; we are going to be all over this space in a very significant manner. He specifically raised measures relating to VAT and the collection of VAT from those who use digital platforms. We are indeed introducing joint and several liability to make sure that we step up the clampdown on, in that instance, VAT fraud.
The right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge) suggested that our figures were not durable and questioned the veracity of our numbers. We have secured £160 billion through clamping down on tax evasion and non-compliance, and that figure appears in HMRC’s annual report and accounts, which are of course audited by the National Audit Office.
Dame Margaret Hodge
That is not secured money; it is money to which HMRC feels it is entitled but has yet to secure. My experience from the Falciani Swiss leak suggests that intentions do not become reality.
Mel Stride
I do not think the right hon. Lady and I are going to agree on that particular point. One point we might agree on is the tax gap, which is 6%—the lowest in our history. That is the difference between that which we should be collecting and that which we are collecting. It is a world-beating figure, also audited by the NAO. According to the International Monetary Fund, it sets a world standard in terms of robustness.
As you will know, Mrs Main, we have done a great deal over the years in clamping down on tax avoidance and evasion. In the Finance (No. 2) Act 2017, which has just gone through Parliament, we introduced corporate interest restrictions to stop companies shifting profits around by the ingenious use of intra-company loans. We had the diverted profits tax in 2015, which addresses a number of the examples we heard in the debate today. We have been in the vanguard of the base erosion and profit shifting project at the OECD. We are benefiting now from the common reporting standards across 50 countries—rising to 100—so account information is available to HMRC in real time. We are engaged with the EU on mandatory disclosure rules to make sure that we can clamp down on schemes, through those who are party to them.
The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) raised the issue of the information required from the extraction sector and the financial sector in comparison with the ask on country-by-country reporting. Those are of course different sets of information. In the case of the extraction sector and the financial sector, the information required is significantly less exhaustive than would be the case in country-by-country reporting.
The right hon. Lady also asked a very important and pertinent question about how many countries would need to say yes for us to feel that we could go ahead on a multilateral basis. I suppose that gives rise to other questions, such as which countries and what mix of countries. She can rest assured that as and when, as we hope, we reach the point when sufficient countries say they will sign up, we will be pleased to do so. I add my congratulations to her for the hard work that she did, particularly on the Finance Act 2016, to ensure that her amendment reached the statute book.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) spoke about the importance of international standards. He also raised the issue of intangible assets, which is one of the common threads running through the issues of companies shifting profits around. If there is clearly economic activity in a particular place, it is much easier to pin the profits to where that activity is occurring than if there are, for example, digital companies that are selling substantially into the United Kingdom but basing their operations elsewhere. That can be through royalty payments on intellectual property charges between companies; it is quite possible to avoid tax as a consequence. That is why we announced in the Budget today that we will be looking at introducing the withholding of taxes in respect of royalty payments for IP, where they relate to movements of income between ourselves and very low-tax jurisdictions. We will be looking into that whole area by way of consultation.
I was tickled by the suggestion from the right hon. Member for Barking that she could feed me ideas that would make me more popular within my own party. I look forward to hearing as many of those as she cares to pass my way, because I am very interested in being so popular.
The hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) raised the issue of registers of beneficial ownership across, particularly, Crown dependencies and overseas territories. We have those; they are not public, but they are accessible in real time by HMRC and we have a good record in tracking down people who try to stash money away in, for example, overseas trusts. We have raised £2.8 billion in that respect since 2010. I was pleased that the hon. Lady welcomed the measures in today’s Budget that extend to 12 years the time period in which we can go after individuals who have been involved in just that kind of activity.
In my final couple of minutes, I want to focus on the principal arguments. We are not against country-by-country reporting. We welcome the opportunity to move to exactly that situation, but to do so unilaterally will not work, for at least three reasons. It would certainly make the UK less competitive than other tax jurisdictions. I see no reason why any particular business should want to go to a country with that in place as strongly as they would want to go where it is not in place. If it were just us alone, we would also be in the position of not being able to get public disclosure if a UK company had associated non-UK companies in other jurisdictions and not under that company’s control. The big advantage of going multilaterally is the standardisation of the standards that we set and the rules and regulations around each particular step.
The Government will continue to work towards bringing in not just country-by-country reporting as we have at the moment, but public country-by-country reporting. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley and all those who have contributed to the debate for helping to inform that discussion.