Football Stadiums (Safer Seating)
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
I am delighted to have the opportunity this evening to discuss the issue of safer seating at football grounds. I say “safer seating” because we often have debates in Parliament about the desire of fans to see the reintroduction of safe standing at football grounds, but tonight I would like to turn the debate on its head and argue that the solution is the introduction of some seating at football grounds that will be safer for spectators, and that will recognise and accommodate those fans who continue, and will continue, to stand while watching football.
Since August 1994, clubs in the premiership and championship have been required to provide all-seated accommodation. This followed Lord Justice Taylor’s report into the Hillsborough disaster of April 1989. In the report, Lord Justice Taylor said:
“There is no panacea which will achieve total safety and cure all problems of behaviour and crowd control. But I am satisfied that seating does more to achieve those objectives than any other single measure.”
He went on to say:
“It is obvious that sitting for the duration of the match is more comfortable than standing. It is also safer. When a spectator is seated he has his own small piece of territory in which he can feel reasonably secure. He will not be in close physical contact with those around him. He will not be jostled or moved about by swaying or surging. Small, infirm or elderly men and women as well as young children are not buffeted, smothered or un-sighted by large and more robust people, as on the terraces. The seated spectator is not subject to pressure of numbers behind, nor around, him during the match. He will not be painfully bent double over a crush barrier. Those monitoring numbers will know exactly how many there are without having to count them in, or assess the density by visual impression. There will still, of course, be scope for crowd pressure on standing whilst entering and, especially, when leaving but involuntary and uncontrolled crowd movements occasioned by incidents at the game are effectively eliminated…Apart from comfort and safety, seating has distinct advantages in achieving crowd control. It is possible to have disturbances in a seated area and they have occurred, but with the assistance of CCTV the police can immediately zoom in with a camera and pinpoint the seats occupied by the trouble-makers as well as the trouble-makers themselves”.
I cannot disagree with any of those observations. They were made at a time when football grounds were very different from the grounds of today, but at the same time I do not think that anyone who advocates the reintroduction of official standing areas at football grounds is seriously suggesting a return to vast terraces such as the Kippax at Maine Road or the Holte End at Villa Park.
Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (Ind)
Is my hon. Friend, like me, in favour of the return of standing to at least some sections of a stadium? With the undoubted improvement in behaviour inside stadiums, should we not aspire to having some safe standing areas and work to achieve that over the next couple of years?
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
The hon. Gentleman referred to the 1994 implementation of premiership and championship clubs not being able to have standing areas, but of course an exception was made for clubs that had been promoted rapidly. Is he aware that between 1999 and 2002, Fulham, a club that had been promoted through the divisions, had standing in three of its four stands for two seasons in the championship and one season in the premiership, and there were no safety problems during that period?
Mr Leech
I am absolutely aware of that, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. I was one of the people who stood at Fulham as an away supporter, many years ago now.
Where Lord Justice Taylor got it wrong was the assumption that everyone would get used to sitting at football. At every all-seater ground, up and down the country, persistent standing remains a part of the game every week. That is why there have been continued calls for the introduction of “safe standing” areas, and in March 2011 the Football Supporters Federation launched a campaign, including an online petition, arguing that supporters should have the choice to stand. The campaign has gained significant momentum, so much so that at the Football League’s annual general meeting on 7 June, more than two thirds of the 72 clubs voted in favour of a motion to explore safe standing trials. There is overwhelming support from supporters for the campaign; in the FSF national supporter survey in 2009, almost 90% of respondents believed that supporters should have the choice of sitting or standing, with more than 50% preferring to stand. By 2012, 92% of respondents wanted the choice, including 82% of women, even though opponents often argue that they have been attracted to football by the alleged additional comfort of all-seater stadiums.
I recognise that support for this approach is not universal among fans. Margaret Aspinall, chair of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, opposes the proposals and has argued:
“Standing should never, ever come back. I do not think there is anything safe about standing.”
But the reality is that standing has never gone away. Thousands of fans at premier league grounds up and down the country were standing at matches at the weekend— from the Saturday lunchtime game I attended at the Etihad between City and Arsenal to the late game at White Hart Lane on Sunday afternoon between Spurs and Liverpool. There has been abject failure on the part of the authorities to persuade fans to sit down in some sections.
A joint statement was made last month by the Sports Grounds Safety Authority, the premier league, the Football League, the Football Association, the Core Cities Group, the Football Safety Officers Association and the Association of Chief Police Officers. It highlighted their 2002 paper, which examined the nature and causes of spectators standing in seated areas at premier league and Football League grounds. It concluded that a number of safety, crowd management and customer care issues were presented by persistent standing, and that it should be eradicated as far as reasonably practicable. Some 11 years later their November statement admits that
“such measures alone have not always achieved the desired results”.
That is the biggest understatement of the authorities’ abject failure at persuading people to sit down.
So what is the outcome of this systematic failure, and what is the solution? We have whole sections of grounds designed for sitting being occupied by people who choose to stand, or who are forced to stand by other people standing. That is particularly problematic in away sections, where it is very common for away fans either to choose to stand or be forced to stand by others for the entire duration of the match. But this is not confined to specific sections of grounds where the majority of people want to stand; it often ends up being a problem in areas where most people would choose to sit but are forced to stand in order to see.
The problem is twofold: First, thousands of fans standing in areas designed for sitting down is not as safe as it should be. I stood on the Kippax for about 20 years without ever being injured. The only time I have been injured at a football match was at Borussia Dortmund last season. Having been forced to stand in an area that had been converted to seating for the champions league, with no safety barriers, I was knocked forward, injuring my leg on the seat in front. If there had been barriers in front of each row—behind and in front of me—that would not have happened, because I would not have been knocked forwards. It might be argued that it was my own fault for standing up, but I would not have been able to see any of the game had I been sitting down. Nobody had the choice to sit down and see the game.
Secondly, we seem to have forgotten the need for football grounds to be accessible for all. Some people, while not confined to a wheelchair and not considered to be disabled, are still not able to stand for a whole game and need to sit down. Fans in that position have found it increasingly difficult to attend away games, where there is a consistent problem with persistent standing. Anecdotally, I am aware of a number of people who no longer attend any away games, because they either cannot see the game or they struggle to stand up for 90 minutes. Given how much work has taken place to encourage disabled fans to access football, how can we possibly allow this situation to continue?
What is the solution? In two words, it is rail seating, which is basically a seat that is attached to a rail or barrier. Rail seats are used in many football grounds across Europe, in countries that allow standing for domestic matches, and then convert the standing areas to seating for European games in line with UEFA rules on all-seater stadiums for European matches. For domestic games, those rail seats are permanently locked in the upright position, and everyone stands, which increases incapacity. For European games, the seats are permanently locked in the seat position, and the number of fans allowed into an area is one for each seat. That system works well. It is safe and creates a great footballing atmosphere, cheaper tickets and ensures that other areas of the ground with standard seating are occupied by people who want to sit down, and do not stand up and block the view of others. Such a system was evident at Borussia Dortmund, where the area usually designated for standing fans had everyone standing, even though it had been converted to seating, while the areas that are permanently seated had fans remaining seated. That is the ideal solution. It ensures the safety of standing fans who currently stand in areas that are not designed for standing. Unfortunately, that solution fails to address concerns from the police about crowd control and the perception that a football match can be more easily policed when each spectator has a designated seat.
Andy Holt, the ACPO lead on football policing, has voiced opposition to standing areas because he believes it could contribute to unruly behaviour and hooliganism. I do not accept that assessment, and it was also disputed by Superintendent Steven Graham of West Midlands police who has backed the call of the Football Supporters Federation for safe standing areas to be trialled. I would argue that unruly behaviour at grounds is often a direct result of attempts to force fans to sit down.
The easy solution is to designate each spectator a specific seat-cum-standing position in the rail-seating area, in the same way as they are currently allocated a seat. My proposal is that rail seating should be allowed to be introduced at clubs, without the seats being locked in either the open or closed position. That creates a seat for each spectator in exactly the same way as any other seat in the ground. The difference is that as well as being a seat, the rail seating provides a safety barrier in front of each row. That means that when people are standing up, they are safer than they currently are when standing in existing seats. Does the Minister accept that that is the case? I hope and assume that she does, as it is an indisputable fact that a seat that has a safety barrier in front cannot possibly be less safe than the current configuration with no barrier, and a barrier between each row must make it more difficult for a spectator to be pushed forward and over into the next row of seats.
Having established that that configuration must be safer, my next question is whether the Minister believes that rail seating is currently legal, or does she think that a change of law is required to introduce rail seating? When I met Ruth Shaw of the Sports Grounds Safety Authority, she tried to argue that rail seating was not allowed under the current legislation because it provided not only a seat but a place to stand, even if the seat is not fixed in the open or closed position. I disagree. It is clearly no different from the seats currently used at all football grounds that flip up and down but still provide a place to stand if the spectator chooses not to sit down. If the Minister disagrees with me, perhaps she could explain the difference between the two types of seat. Of course, there is none. The only distinction is that the rail seat is safer because it has the safety barrier in front, so will the Minister explain to me why the SGSA is arguing against seating that would make stadiums safer? I challenge her this evening to admit at the Dispatch Box that there is no justification for the SGSA to take such a view, and ask her to give the green light to willing clubs to introduce rail seating with a seat for every spectator.
My final point is about whether there is a groundswell of opinion in favour of introducing safer seating and making it safer for people who continue to stand. I believe that there is. In January, in response to my oral question, the former Sports Minister, the right hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), for whom I have great respect, argued that there was no support from the football authorities, the police or those involved in the safety of the game for any change. Unfortunately, that fails to recognise that the authorities all take their lead from the politicians. Privately, most people involved in all areas of the game from the FA to the police support safe standing but stick to the official line because they believe that there is no political will for change.
This is not an issue of safety. I have already outlined why safety would be enhanced rather than compromised by rail seating. It is about political will. Politicians must wake up to the fact that standing will continue and rail seating is the solution that will improve safety and enhance choice for fans. That is why it is Liberal Democrat policy and why the other parties need to recognise that the status quo cannot be allowed to continue.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)
I thank the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) for securing the debate and the hon. Members for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) and for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) for their important interventions.
As the House knows, the current safety requirements at football grounds followed devastating losses of life at stadium disasters during the ’70s and ’80s. After the Ibrox stadium disaster in 1971, legislation made it a requirement for large designated sports grounds to be issued with a safety certificate from the relevant local authority. Those safety requirements were extended further after the Bradford stadium fire of 1985.
Following the Hillsborough disaster, the Football Licensing Authority was established through the Football Spectators Act 1989. Its role was to implement the Government’s policies on ensuring the reasonable safety and management of spectators at football grounds in England and Wales. The Football Licensing Authority became the Sports Grounds Safety Authority in 2011 and carries out that important role by overseeing how local authorities discharge their safety duties at designated football grounds. It works with football clubs and local authorities to provide advice and help to maintain appropriate safety standards. The framework that is now in place for football grounds is designed to ensure that serious shortcomings, such as those at Hillsborough in 1989, should never occur again.
In addition to the SGSA’s safety advisory and oversight roles, it is required to issue licences for the grounds of clubs in the premier league and football league, as well as the international grounds at Wembley and the Millennium stadium in Cardiff. As the House is aware, following recommendations made by Lord Justice Taylor in his report on the Hillsborough disaster, it has been a long-standing policy of successive Governments that the football grounds of clubs in the top two divisions of football should be all-seater. We appreciate, of course, that some fans miss the tradition and character of some of our former grounds and would like to see a return to standing areas. It is the case also that some clubs have expressed support for flexibility over whether to provide standing or seating areas. However, the Government believe that all-seater stadiums are the best means to ensure the safety and security of fans at football in England and Wales.
Mrs Grant
I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making. If he bears with me, I will come on to the point about rail seating, but safety and security must be paramount. With rail seating, there are still a number of issues.
Some clubs have expressed support for flexibility over whether to provide standing areas or seating areas, and rail seating has been looked at and debated. However, the Government believe that all-seater stadiums are still the very best means to ensure the safety and security of fans at football in England and Wales. Those responsible for safety at football grounds also generally consider that the introduction of all-seater stadiums in the top two divisions must improve public safety, and has also improved crowd management, crowd behaviour and security. We believe that all-seater stadiums are important in helping to provide much better and more comfortable facilities for people to enjoy football matches. They have improved customer care and helped encourage a more modern, inclusive and diverse environment for all those attending.
In 2010, my predecessor as Minister for Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), asked the football authorities, the police and the Sports Grounds Safety Authority for their views on the Government’s all-seater stadiums policy and whether they believed that a change in policy to allow for standing merited further consideration. The responses made it very clear indeed that they would not support a change to the current policy.
The hon. Gentleman raises concerns about the difficulty for some clubs in keeping certain sections of spectators seated and the possible impact of this on safety. He suggests that it might be easier to allow clubs to choose to introduce areas specifically designed for standing, instead of people continuing to stand in seated areas. I recognise that persistent standing by sections of crowds can be an issue at some football matches. Football clubs will have ground regulations which prohibit persistent standing in seated areas, and it is primarily the responsibility of football clubs to ensure that effective crowd management and seating in designated areas are enforced. Again, I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about rail seating, but I do not believe that that is the answer.
Mr Leech
I am not sure the Minister listened to everything I said. Standing happens at every single premier league ground and championship ground week in, week out. We have systematically failed to deal with the issue of persistent standing at football grounds. By the nature of the game, people want to stand. We need to allow them to stand in a safer environment than we currently have, and the only way we can do that and still provide seating is with rail seating. I have not heard any arguments on what is the problem with rail seating is .
Mrs Grant
I assure the hon. Gentleman that I listened very carefully to everything he said; I simply do not necessarily agree with him. The football authorities still think that seating is the best method for making people safe, secure and comfortable when they go to matches. That is not to say that the issue cannot be debated at some point in the future, but currently the football authorities and others agree that seating is one of the safest methods, if not the safest, for ensuring that people enjoy the game.
In 2002 the football authorities, club safety officers, local and national licensing authorities, the police and the SGSA together produced a joint statement on the matter, setting out possible measures to address the problem of people standing up in seating areas, which I know the hon. Gentleman is concerned about. Those bodies recently considered the joint statement yet again and an update was published by the SGSA on 1 December. It clarifies the responsibilities of those involved and includes helpful case studies and best practice and shows how some clubs are dealing with the issue.
I know that no one is suggesting that we should return to the arrangements that were in place 15 or 20 years ago. I also appreciate that some supporters have genuine concerns about the seating requirements. It is clear that the arguments for and against the return of standing in top-flight football have developed over recent years. It is therefore important that we continue to engage in an informed and constructive debate about the issues that have been raised today. However, before any changes to the policy could even be considered, it would be necessary to ensure that they would not only mean a safer environment for football spectators, but build on the improvements made over the past 20 years in security, comfort and inclusivity. On that basis, I am not convinced that a compelling case has been made today.
Question put and agreed to.