Lord Harries of Pentregarth
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of United Kingdom aid to India being phased out in 2015, and the high proportion of that aid being targeted at the Dalit or Scheduled Caste communities, what information they have about how those aid programmes will be replaced.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, faster and more inclusive development, including for Dalits, remains a priority for the Government of India. India’s own development efforts have lifted 60 million people out of extreme poverty in the past five years. After 2015, we will support India’s poverty reduction efforts through technical assistance and private sector programmes.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
I thank the Minister for her reply. As she knows, despite the growing wealth of the Indian middle class, poverty in India still exists on a horrendous scale. It is worse than all the African countries put together, with 500 million people living on less than $2 a day. One of the great advantages of DfID aid, as the Minister knows, is that it was focused on the poorest of the poor. Can she spell out—or, at least ask DfID to spell in more detail and set down on paper—what particular practical arrangements are being made for the continuation of these projects? On a government visit to these projects last year, of which I was a member, we saw the extraordinary and valuable work being done. Can we have something in writing about the practical arrangements to ensure that these projects will continue?
Baroness Northover
I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for his tribute to the work conducted by DfID in India. I am happy to write to him with a great deal of detail on what is happening. I think the noble and right reverend Lord saw the Odisha project for girls; boys are also being brought into secondary schools, initially supported by DfID. That is being taken over by the government there. DfID is in talks with both central and local government about how best to take forward the various projects in which it is involved, with the intention of carrying forward looking after the poorest and most vulnerable in India.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, to build on what the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, has just said, we own the only factory and brewery in Bihar. I work closely with the government there, and they appreciate so much the work that DfID does on the ground, helping the state to be more efficient, such as the Right to Public Service Act and the BLISS programme to help teachers learn and teach English. Will this work carry on? It is generally appreciated. This is not just aid, it is goodwill being generated. Do the Government agree?
Baroness Northover
I thank the noble Lord for his tribute. The British Council will continue to be supported in India, and some of the programmes the noble Lord mentioned may well fall under that. DfID will continue to be in India. It will have a hub of expertise there and is working closely with the Indian Government on the nature of that. It will be giving technical support. I remember visiting India and seeing how DfID acted as a lever for access to other funds, such as the Global Fund, and a great deal can happen in that regard.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, if I may suggest, my noble friend Lord Avebury was ready to go before, and then the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock. We will have some quick questions, and some quick answers from my noble friend, and we will get them both in.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, further to the Question of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, what discussions has DfID had with the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment in India, and with the state governments in Bihal, Madhya Pradesh and Orissa, about how they might be able to continue after 2015 with the projects that were undertaken by DfID, possibly with some transitional assistance from DfID? If it has not had these discussions, will it do so?
Baroness Northover
I can assure my noble friend that we are talking to partner state governments about sustaining the benefits of DfID support once UK financial aid ends. DfID projects in these states are already aligned to the large government schemes and in most cases will be taken forward by the Government of India. However, in spelling out the details I am very happy to write to both noble Lords.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead
My Lords, is it not clear that the decision to end aid to India, as well as to South Africa, neglects the reality that three-quarters of the world’s poorest people now live in middle-income countries? Thirty-nine per cent of South Africans live below the poverty line, while India is home to one-third of the world’s poorest people. Is it not time, therefore, to end the simplistic and misleading reliance on national averages, which so severely undermines efforts to eradicate poverty?
Baroness Northover
The noble Baroness needs to bear it in mind that it is through economic development that you lift people out of poverty and that India has lifted 60 million people out of poverty. The changes in the UK’s aid arrangements reflect India’s rapid growth and development process. We will continue to be involved with it in how this is taken forward.
Lord Tugendhat
Does the noble Baroness not agree that as India is one of the most rapidly growing economies in the world, with a very substantial space programme, a foreign aid programme of its own and an ambitious defence programme, the responsibility for dealing with its very considerable social problems rests with the Government of India? The purpose of British aid should be not only to help very poor people but to help very poor people in poor countries that do not have the means at their disposal which the Indian Government have. The Indian Government choose to spend money on space, foreign aid and defence, and that is their right, but it is not the responsibility of Britain to fill the gaps.
Baroness Northover
The two noble Lords may want to have a conversation in the margins of the Chamber. I would point out that the Government of India have been putting an increasing amount of money into education, higher education, access to finance, comprehensive village development, and so on. There is a range of areas where India is taking forward the kind of programmes that both noble Lords would wish to see.