Lord Donoughue
My Lords, this is clearly an important and so far fascinating debate. There are many fine speakers to come, and I shall try not to delay noble Lords too long.
First, I should declare some ancient interests. Long ago, I worked as a journalist for four newspapers, including one owned by Rupert Murdoch. I was sacked by him, an experience of which I am unequivocally proud. I was also sacked by Robert Maxwell, but I shall not go into that here.
The Leveson report, which we are here to debate, is immensely impressive. I basically support its approach, especially on the need for a fine, delicate layer of statutory underpinning. I support all that was said by my noble friend Lady Jones and by the right reverend Prelate about the value of the local press, the remaining, though fast disappearing, jewel in our media.
The report, of course, has deficiencies and omissions, which is inevitable with such a vast subject to cover in such a little time. It has been and will be comprehensively covered today, so I shall try not to repeat much of what has been said—and I am sure will be said—on the body of the report.
I wish to make just two points. The first, which has been stressed to me by old journalist friends, is that the fact that present proprietors, editors and journalists sadly include some thugs, bullies and, in the case of the Murdoch gang, some alleged—I stress alleged—criminals, does not in itself justify eliminating the basic freedom of the press. I agree with that. However, I do not believe that the Leveson report, if read carefully and fairly, does anything like that. It is careful and subtle in deliberately setting out not to do so. Only the recent ridiculous campaign by some parts of the press to denigrate Leveson by proposing that its aim is for the Government to control what journalists do and do not say suggests that it might do so. The Prime Minister, who is perhaps historically too close to the Murdoch camp—he and his party are not alone in that—is wrong in apparently believing that that is the danger in Leveson, and in seeking to appease the press rather than its victims. I trust that the Minister, when he replies to the debate, will demonstrate that that is not so by accepting the need for some statutory underpinning. However, I confess that I am not too optimistic about that. He should acknowledge that on many previous occasions when the press has been under the scrutiny of previous commissions of inquiry into newspaper behaviour—I think that there have been six in my lifetime—it has always promised to perform more responsibly in order, of course, to avoid closer regulation, but has always broken its word. In recent times it has behaved worse than ever, as the evidence to Leveson and recent actions by the police have proved. It does have form, my Lords. The fact is that it cannot be trusted to operate complete self-regulation.
My second and main point concerns one of the crucial factors which is understandably given little analysis in this hasty report: that is, the excessive concentration of ownership power in the media, which has shaped the culture of the media, to which the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, rightly referred, in particular the concentration of power in Murdoch’s media empire which stems from the 1981 decision to allow him to take over the Sunday Times and the Times. That concentration led to his newspapers having the power to intimidate politicians as well as ordinary members of the public and, over time, led to some—I stress “some”—of his newspapers and journalists feeling that they were above the law and unaccountable. Indeed, it apparently led some of them to feel that they were above all normal standards of moral behaviour, thus leading to the appalling episodes of behaviour which Leveson exposed.
The events of 1981—the takeovers by Murdoch of the Times and the Sunday Times—were central to this process of decline and corruption. The politicians, led by Prime Minister Thatcher, for whom I have great admiration in other fields, behaved outrageously in conniving with Murdoch for him to acquire this excessive power: a bigger concentration of newspaper ownership and power than was ever held by notorious newspaper barons such as Northcliffe and Beaverbrook in the United Kingdom and Hearst in America. Murdoch’s acquisitions were characterised by deceit, misrepresentation of facts to Parliament and the public and contempt for company law—all to avoid reference of these takeovers to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission and to allow Murdoch to avoid the official guidelines of a 30% maximum share of newspaper ownership. These events were all set out in meticulous detail by Sir Harold Evans in his inside story, Good Times, Bad Times, which I recommend noble Lords to read, and have never been challenged or disputed. They show how the Prime Minister had a secret meeting in No. 10 to plan these developments. The Prime Minister and Murdoch both later denied that meeting to Parliament and it was never reported to Cabinet although it was minuted by her press secretary. No other competing bidder was given that privileged access. When the deal was done, Parliament was reassured by Murdoch giving five statutory undertakings, backed by criminal sanctions, which mainly referred to guarantees of editorial independence. All these guarantees were subsequently breached without action being taken against Murdoch.
In seeking to avoid a referral to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission, the device was used of claiming that the Sunday Times, which in the past and in the future is one of the most profitable British newspapers in history, was “not a going concern” and therefore needed Murdoch’s immediate financial rescue. In fact, the financial statistics on the performance and prospects of the Sunday Times were distorted and misrepresented to Parliament. The paper’s finance director, who knew the true figures, was not called to brief the Department of Trade, whose Secretary of State was handling the issue on behalf of the Prime Minister. It was later reported to me by an official from the No. 10 private office, who I knew, that Mrs Thatcher was heard to say, “Rupert supported me in the election, and I must support him now”. That is an understandable political reaction.
That excessive concentration of power given to Murdoch by dubious methods was, and still is, inimical to the workings of a healthy democracy. It is indicative of the bad effects of such a concentration of media power that the later alleged criminal activities of journalists were concentrated in, though not exclusive to, Murdoch’s empire. When the alleged criminalities were first exposed in the brave Guardian newspaper, that paper was exposed to derision in the mass media, much of it owned by Murdoch. The same patterns of behaviour began to be observed as Murdoch moved towards increasing ownership and power in television through seeking control of BSkyB. If that proceeds, he will probably offer guarantees, but we should remember that he once said the guarantees he gave over the Times were “not worth the paper they were written on”. He has the virtue of honesty.
Concentration of media power enables a proprietor to intimidate or reward politicians, as Murdoch rewarded Mrs Thatcher with future electoral support in his papers, although, of course, that was his natural inclination anyway. Politicians naturally need media support, hence they are tempted to return favours to supporting media. As we know, the police—
Lord Donoughue
I am concluding. It is a potentially corrupting game. All power corrupts and excessive media power corrupts excessively. The Leveson inquiry was an impressive enterprise but it will fail if it does not ensure that such a concentration of media power, and the corruption which follows it, never happens again.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I know that the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, missed my remarks at the beginning of today’s debate, but it might be helpful for me from time to time to give noble Lords a sense of how we are doing as regards time. I remind everybody that we have suggested—this is just guidance—that speeches should last for around seven minutes if we are to rise at around five o’clock this afternoon. We are starting to run a little behind schedule.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, for that summing-up of the debate and for his contribution, which goes with all the others that have informed this debate. It is nearly seven hours since my noble friend Lord Younger of Leckie opened this debate, which asks us to take note. I am sure that we all have been taking note during this time. I remember that when we postponed this debate, all having sat here expecting it that evening, the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, wondered whether perhaps it would all happen before we got to talk about it again. Well, it has not all happened and this debate has provided a really good forum for us in this House to inform future discussions and give our points of view. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, referred to the circumstances of our debate, but I was focused on her view of the high level of consensus that had been generated by the time that she spoke, and it has continued in noble Lords’ contributions since then.
My noble friend Lord Younger referred to the honour that I had to reply to this debate. I laughed at the time, but actually it has been an honour to be involved in it in any way. This is a serious issue, and the debate has had very thoughtful contributions—indeed, it has been the House of Lords at its best.
It was a particular pleasure to hear the fine maiden speech from the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and I join all other noble Lords in welcoming him to the House. Indeed, just as my noble friend Lord Fowler wished him long life, so do we. The noble Lord and I know each other, and his expertise in the veterinary profession will greatly assist the House in its consideration of many debates concerning animal health and welfare and, as we have learnt today, many other matters too.
Before I go on to the substance of the debate, I think that we as a House should thank Lord Justice Leveson for his work in examining so thoroughly and with such integrity such a complex set of circumstances and issues. The shameless, distasteful and blatantly illegal hacking of mobile telephones of victims of crime and their families, and the intrusions into people’s privacy at the most distressing time of their lives, shocked us all. These events have led to a change in the public’s attitude to the press, and the Government have responded to the public’s concern by setting up Lord Justice Leveson’s inquiry. His report goes to the heart of some of our country’s most important institutions, including the press and the police. He rightly praises the freedom of speech that has enabled countless examples of truly exemplary investigative journalism in this country and continues to enable the Government and the police to be held to account by the media. It is vital that we protect that freedom as a cornerstone of our democracy, and the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, made a very thoughtful speech about the nature of that freedom.
However, Lord Justice Leveson strongly criticises a culture of severe wrongdoing on the part of certain elements of the press that seriously undermines public confidence in the way that that freedom has been exercised. There are serious issues, and the Government recognise the strength of feeling within this House, among the victims of phone hacking and among the public more generally. Lord Justice Leveson called the havoc that was wreaked on the lives of innocent people “outrageous”. Noble Lords have strongly reinforced that description, perhaps most graphically my noble friend Lord Fowler, while “horrific” was the word used by my noble friend Lord Lamont. We heard directly from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, and my noble friend Lord Caithness. That is why we have been considering this issue here today, and I am grateful that so many noble Lords have made a contribution to this discussion.
How we achieve success has been widely debated. We have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, about the Irish system, and we have been told by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, of its shortcomings. We have been informed of the optimism of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral that a solution may be found that is compatible with Lord Justice Leveson’s ideas. I suspect that many others share that hope. I thank him for his determination and wish him well. My noble friend Lord Stoneham has a clear insight into these issues, and the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, summed up the position of many who support the endeavour of achieving it without legislation. However, even those speakers who doubted the chances of success without a statutory underpinning recognise the value of the structure that my noble friend Lord Hunt envisages.
I start by going through the central issue of media regulation as we see it. We have made it clear since the report was published that we completely accept the central principles of Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations: that an independent regulatory body should be established; that it should be independent in terms of who is appointed to it and its funding; that it should set out a code of standards with which the press must comply; that it should provide an accessible arbitration service for dispute resolution; that it should ensure a mechanism for rapid complaints handling; and that it should have the power to impose significant fines for breaches of the code.
Of course, this has taken place against a background of meetings. The Government are working to come up with the best possible solution for implementation of the new press recognition body required under Leveson. The Government have drawn up a draft Bill to examine the implementation of Lord Justice Leveson’s legislative recommendations, and this is alongside other Bills drawn up by the Opposition, by my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill—who is not in his place, as he has not been feeling well this afternoon—and by the campaign group Hacked Off. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, that there have been five meetings with Hacked Off; in fact, yesterday, the Secretary of State met with Hacked Off again. There have also been five meetings between DCMS Ministers and the press since the report. I reassure my noble friend Lady Buscombe that press proprietors have been included in these discussions. However, it is the output of the papers, not the ownership, that is really at the bottom of all this. I will go on to talk about plurality, because that issue came up and it is important that we have a chance to factor it in.
However, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has expressed serious concerns about introducing a statutory element to regulation. The Government are also exploring a number of ways to ensure rigorous and independent oversight of the new regulatory system without the need for statute. This includes consideration of the proposal to verify a new system via a royal charter to ensure the independence of that verification from Parliament. It can be said that a royal charter has many virtues. It provides a body with the requisite independence. It can also be supported by safeguards so that the purpose of the body cannot change over time without scrutiny. However, as my noble friend Lord Astor pointed out, there are some weaknesses; the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, went into these in some detail.
The Government are continuing discussions with all sides, including, crucially, looking at ways in which Parliament can be involved without interfering with the independence of the press. I also note that the press has suggested the idea of a charitable trust—or a trust of some description—in order to set up the new recognition body. The Government will consider this suggestion carefully; however, we are clear that whatever solution is eventually agreed, it must be compliant with those principles with which I started the substance of my speech, enunciated by Lord Justice Leveson in his report.
Most importantly, as Lord Justice Leveson himself recommends, the press must put its own house in order. A series of meetings between the press and the Government have already taken place and we are confident that that work is progressing positively. Cross-party discussions are continuing, with the aim of reaching a consensus on the way forward. We all agree that our solution must strike the right balance between protection of the rights and privacy of individuals and the freedom of the press, which is central to our democracy and must be defended vigorously. For this reason, I am sure that the usual channels will ensure that these issues return to the House once those discussions have concluded.
Let me be clear: there is no government position on these issues. We are supporting all attempts to achieve a consensus. We are working on cross-party agreement, which I think all noble Lords would like to see underlie the solution.
Perhaps I may take noble Lords through some particular aspects. I will start with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich who, along with the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, and other noble Lords, mentioned the importance of the regional and local press as part of our press media. They were at pains to emphasise that we should recognise that any solution should not impede that section of the press. I can say that, despite a rapid decline a few years ago in local papers and the regional press, the signs are that that sector is recovering. I tend to take the view of the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, about the future of the British press. He took a fairly robust view and I agree with him that the demand for information and entertainment is such in this country that the advent of new media does not necessarily mean that the print press will disappear. It is not a zero-sum game. The truth is that the press will need to change and not just in terms of its standards but also in terms of how it presents itself.
This is a good point at which to talk about plurality because that is something which a number of noble Lords said had not been mentioned in Leveson as a key element. The noble Lords, Lord Sharkey, Lord Stoneham of Droxford, Lord Donoughue and Lord Whitty, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland of Asthal, all talked about this issue. It rumbled on as a key area of concern. We need to agree that we should consider how we deal with change in growth within the press and how we get the mechanism right. An effective media ownership regime must strike the right balance between securing plurality and allowing growth. We want carefully to consider Ofcom’s constructive suggestions for strengthening the media ownership regime. We agree that online media should be considered in any assessment of plurality and recognise the complexity of doing so. It was the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, who talked about the complexity of measuring and dealing with these things. It is complex. In some ways, the solution lies in trying to find a way to make complexity simple, because the noble Lord also pointed out that any regime needs to be understandable and capable of being seen to be proper. Making the complex simple might be a theme for today and our discussions in general as we try to tackle this problem.
The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, asked what would happen if there were a fire sale down at News International. I hesitate to suggest that such a thing might happen, but of course it would be dealt with as any other change of ownership is dealt with within the press. The authorities would deal with it in the usual way. It is a hypothetical question, but we have mechanisms for dealing with these problems.
Perhaps I may now deal with data protection issues. Lord Justice Leveson has considered issues of data protection and investigative journalism, including the role of the Information Commissioner to investigate and rule on public interest. As the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport made clear in another place, we need to give careful consideration to these proposals. As Lord Justice Leveson himself acknowledges, their implementation would go to the very heart of the balance between the freedom of the press and every individual’s right to a private life. It was interesting to hear the views of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, on that particular issue.
On the press and the politicians, Lord Justice Leveson finds that the relationship between politicians of all parties and the press has, over the past 30 to 35 years, become too close, to the point where it is perhaps not in the public interest. This Government have introduced greater transparency to these relationships. However, the Prime Minister has made it clear that the Government accept the recommendation that these interactions should be more open still. It clearly is in all our interests that the public should trust their representatives and legislators and that they are not engaged in self-serving relationships behind closed doors. I think that this House would agree with that.
Lord Justice Leveson makes clear that he has not seen any evidence that corruption is endemic in the police nor that there is a widespread problem of corrupt relationships between the police and the press. We should welcome those conclusions. The noble Lord, Lord Alli, was right to draw attention to this issue and my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury was right to draw attention to the need to enforce the laws that we have.
We broadly welcome Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations on policing and my right honourable friend the Home Secretary will be announcing a number of measures designed to strengthen integrity and transparency in policing further, including measures to implement recommendations made by Lord Justice Leveson.
The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, made a point about the growing media outside the press. As I have said, I do not believe that the print press is threatened by such media but it is clear that any future solution for press regulation must be future-proofed and sufficiently flexible to take account of the challenges and opportunities that digital media present. I see that I am running out of time, but that is not entirely surprising given the length of the debate.
I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, that we do not favour Ofcom as the recognition body proposed by Lord Justice Leveson. My noble friend Lord Phillips asked about prosecutions against the media. The Director of Public Prosecutions recently introduced new guidelines on prosecutions involving the media, including considerations of public interest. I cannot comment on individual cases.
In summary, we come back to where my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral was in presenting what he was trying to achieve. My noble friend Lord Wakeham reiterated his view that the new regulatory regime would need to be substantially tougher than the current arrangements. He saw the new regime as having real teeth but perhaps being overseen by a lay-dominated board. My noble friend Lord Trimble came to a similar conclusion, along with the noble Lord, Lord Soley. However, many noble Lords felt that oversight would require statutory underpinning.
There is that difference perhaps, but there is much common ground, which is why I am encouraged from this debate that a solution based on consensus is possible. That has been the value of this debate and I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have participated. As my noble friend moved the Motion earlier, I hope that the House will take note of it.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
It would be helpful for the House if, in closing, the Minister could sketch out the timescale for these debates. I appreciate that it is not entirely in his hands and that other factors may be going on. I think that everyone thought that this process would move reasonably fast. There are difficulties. There is a lot to learn, a lot to listen to and a lot to discuss, but frustration will build up if nothing is going to happen. Perhaps a word on the timetable would be helpful.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I cannot give a timetable, because it is not in my gift, of course. There are a number of different bodies involved. But I think it would be helpful, after such a productive debate today, for the usual channels to take notice of it—and we will have time to debate this issue as it progresses. I suspect that this is not going to be a Moses-like event, with tablets of stone coming down. I think that we will work our way towards the truth. I hope that it is the sentiment of Members of this House that we all feel that we have played some part towards getting a solution. I am sure that the usual channels would be quite happy to enable us to talk further about it. I am sorry that I cannot give a timetable.