Lord Howarth of Newport
I add with great pleasure my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack—I can hardly restrain myself from calling him my noble friend—for providing us with this opportunity to reflect on the contribution that cathedrals make to our national life and how it can be sustained. For me, personally, it is axiomatic that it is a very important question. I grew up in the cathedral city of Winchester and was educated at the cathedral choir school. I now live in the cathedral city of Norwich, where we have two great cathedrals. Not only do we have the magnificent historic Anglican cathedral, where the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield was dean before his translation, but we are also blessed with the presence of the great Roman Catholic cathedral of St John the Baptist. Canon Duckett wrote to the 15th Duke of Norfolk to tell him of,
“our present great need of a new church”,
and ventured the exclamation and prayer:
“Oh, that God would inspire your grace to build one for us”.
And that is exactly what happened. George Gilbert Scott Jr was the architect—he was the son of George Gilbert Scott Sr, the architect of St Pancras station, which many people also believe to be a cathedral. The great church in Norwich was constructed between 1884 and 1910 in a consistently pure and beautiful early English gothic style, and was finally consecrated as a cathedral in 1976.
Between my beginning and my end, I had the privilege to represent another cathedral city, Newport in Monmouthshire. We were in the diocese of Monmouthshire, and St Woolos is the cathedral of that diocese.
For centuries, the cathedrals have shaped and expressed the spiritual, cultural and civic life of our country. They continue to do so and, as has been noted, they also contribute to our economy in attracting very large numbers of tourists. I am not a religious person, and it is hardly for me to talk of the spiritual value of our cathedrals, but non-believers also value the continuity, calm and beauty that the cathedrals afford us. The magnificence of the King James Bible and the cadences of Cranmer’s collects—on which the most reverend Prelate the Archbishop of Canterbury made some very illuminating remarks in a recent talk—are all part of the ceremony of our national life and our private solace. Of course, there are other vernacular versions, which no doubt rightly have their place.
Forty of the cathedrals of the Church of England are grade 1 listed buildings. Canterbury and Durham Cathedrals are world heritage sites. Our cathedrals are a fountainhead of music. After 60 years, I am still haunted by the extraordinarily beautiful anthem “Remember Now Thy Creator”—the words of Ecclesiastes set to music by Charles Steggall and sung by the choir in Winchester Cathedral—and uplifted when I remember the sounds of Stanford in B flat. When I was Minister for the Arts and Heritage, a brace of deans came to see me from Hereford and Southwark to share with me their anxieties about the cathedral choir schools and the problems of maintaining them. Sadly the Arts Council was deeply uninterested in their problem but the cathedrals found other ways and I understand that now, every week, more than 1,000 boys and 800 girls sing choral services. My successors did better than I did. I am pleased to say that the Government contributed £1 million a year, over four years, from 2008, towards the chorister outreach programme to enable choirmasters and choristers to visit schools. Some 60,000 children have had that benefit and around 1,600 teachers have been trained in how to teach choral singing. It would be good if, even in these straightened times, public funds could be found for a number of scholarships to enable children from poor families to attend cathedral choir schools.
The libraries and archives of our cathedrals are great repositories of the national memory. In Norwich, Camberwell College of Arts students have the opportunity of a placement in which they survey the bindings of the books in the great cathedral library. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, drew attention to the importance of cathedrals in sustaining heritage and traditional skills in this country and I pay tribute to him personally for all that he has done to support the maintaining of these skills.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham drew our attention to the impressive statistic that 300,000 children attended educational events at cathedrals in 2011. There is, I would think, no subject in the national curriculum that it is not possible to teach by using the resources that cathedrals provide. Of course many of our cathedrals—in fact I would imagine all of them—are engaged in outreach and Christian care work. I mention simply one example: the day centre for homeless and vulnerable people within the precincts of Sheffield Cathedral. We use the phrase “cathedral cities”. Cathedrals of this country engage and express the civic and the public realm. Again, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham told us that no fewer than an estimated £1.84 million people attended civic and public events in cathedrals in 2011. It is interesting that the Occupy movement decided that it would base its protests at four English cathedrals—not perhaps a very happy experience for all concerned; the jubilee celebrations more recently were a much better one.
In Britain, as the noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Tyler, reminded us, it is not our practice to nationalise our sacred and historic buildings—at any rate, not since the time of Thomas Cromwell. The cathedrals are independent ecclesiastical corporations and take responsibility for themselves. However, there are also responsibilities that should properly fall upon the community and the state. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, told us of the 2009 cathedral fabric needs survey, which found that more than £100 million-worth of repairs needed to be planned for over the next 10 years. I understand that the buildings division of the Church of England is only able to contribute around £750,000 towards those needs, so there is a decanal cash flow problem of formidable proportions in a country that is not getting any richer.
The cathedrals, as we have all acknowledged, provide immense benefits to the secular realm. What is the reciprocal responsibility of the secular realm? The communities, of which Cathedrals are at the heart, rise to this responsibility. Congregations and wider circles of local people are very happy to contribute what they can. I pay a tribute to the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market, who leads the fundraising campaign for Norwich Cathedral. He very much regrets that he cannot be here today because he is engaged in another public duty. The capacities of local communities to raise money to support their cathedrals of course vary. There is an inescapable responsibility on the state.
Over 19 years, English Heritage’s grants for cathedrals scheme contributed, I believe, £52 million towards this very important purpose, latterly supported, with its customary imagination and generosity, by the Wolfson Foundation. English Heritage has now been placed in a position in which it cannot afford to continue with a fund dedicated for this purpose. The Heritage Lottery Fund has also contributed £44.5 million to help the cathedrals since 1995. As our compatriots in these desolate times are consoling themselves by playing the lottery in some considerable numbers, we can anticipate that heritage lottery funding will be quite buoyant, so that is a source of hope.
However, it is not enough for the Government to rely upon the lottery to fulfil the public obligation. The Public Accounts Committee in 2009 urged that the Government should provide core funding for our cathedrals, on the analogy of the grant in aid that the Government provide for the national museums. If we think about it, it is strange to reflect that the National Railway Museum in York is subsidised by the Government to enable it to maintain free entry, whereas York Minster, without public support, has felt it necessary to charge. I admire the National Railway Museum in York but which of these institutions is of greater cultural importance to our country?
No doubt the Minister will say to me that we have a terrible problem with the deficit and that we have to cut it. But I would say that, when there is such a radical recasting of public expenditure, we need to think deeply about the proper responsibilities of the state. I hope that the state will accept that it has an inescapable responsibility to ensure that there is a decent public contribution to support our cathedrals. The public assume that there is. They would be shocked to know that there was not.
I do not want to overrun my time so I will not add to what other noble Lords have said about VAT. However, I hope that the Government will strenuously renew negotiations with the European Union to enable the anomaly between VAT on repairs and VAT on alterations to be removed. As the Government have graciously reconsidered some aspects of their recent Budget, I hope that they will also reconsider their very lamentable decision to increase VAT on alterations to 20 per cent because that will hurt cathedrals very badly, particularly when they come to develop educational or visitor facilities within their listed buildings. I look forward, therefore, to a fully considered statement of the Government’s view of their responsibilities towards our cathedrals when the Minister replies.
Lord Newby
For the benefit of the House, I remind your Lordships that this is a strictly time-limited debate and that when the clock says “10” that means that the time limit is up.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friend Lord Cormack for securing this debate on the important issue of the future of English cathedrals. His background in this area, as others have noted, is formidable. We have also heard from many other noble Lords with great expertise, including the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, the chair of English Heritage, and from those with long personal involvement with cathedrals. That was shown in the outstanding maiden speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester and by many others. We have also heard from two former choristers, as they identified themselves: the noble Lords, Lord Howarth and Lord Rowe-Beddoe. There is a huge debt to acknowledge.
Cathedrals represent part of our most important cultural heritage. Our ancient cathedrals hark back to an earlier age of achievement and are an example of the rich architectural treasure that we must safeguard as well as enjoy. For centuries, cathedrals have been very visible signs of our Christian heritage. One need only travel towards Chichester or Salisbury to get some idea of how extraordinary the distant spires must have been in earlier, less mechanised times or industrialised eras, or to see Durham from the train. I am not going to get into a debate as to which of these amazing cathedrals should be at the head of a league table because they all have their wonders and they are all astonishing.
In medieval times they were centres of learning as well as a source of inspiration through art and architecture, and of course they were frequently the goal for pilgrims. Their ravaging at the time of the Reformation must have been traumatising for those around. Their architecture is undoubtedly some of the greatest work this country has ever produced and their impact should not be underestimated. It was excellent to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, about the continuity of craftsmanship that helps to support our cathedrals. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, mentioned the Venerable Bede. His Ecclesiastical History of the English People, which I read in Latin during my history degree, shows that the cathedral’s role as a home for items of historical significance has hardly declined over the centuries.
Cathedrals are still at the centre of Christian life, serving their local communities and visitors, as several noble Lords said. They help visitors make sense of one strand of our history. Cathedrals work closely with local schools, offering visits and courses. They are also a natural focal point for their surrounding areas and those working in them today often reach out to the wider society around them, seeking to support mothers with young children, homeless people and the local economy. Many noble Lords, particularly my noble friend Lady Byford and the right reverend Prelates the Bishops of Birmingham, Worcester and Wakefield, outlined the social impact of cathedrals today.
Preserving and maintaining such massive and outstanding buildings, most of which date back hundreds of years, is clearly a significant challenge. I have noted the different way of funding in France that was mentioned by several noble Lords. Speakers said that they did not want religious buildings to be vested in the state. There seems to be general agreement that that is not the way to do this, and therefore we must ask how best the state can engage. Recently, a number of important restoration projects were undertaken. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, referred to the York Minster Revealed project, which secured the conservation of the Great East Window. The Heritage Lottery Fund has already committed £10.5 million to the project. Earlier this year the fund gave a “first round pass” of more than £10 million to Winchester Cathedral for urgent works. From a total figure of more than £44.5 million of funding to cathedral projects since 1995, more than £25 million has been directed by the Heritage Lottery Fund towards the conservation of physical fabric—external stonework, stained glass, internal floors, monuments and screens. Cathedrals are encouraged to apply for funding through the fund’s open programmes, where grants of between £10,000 and £5 million can be obtained.
We have heard quite a bit about what English Heritage has been doing. In 1991 it established a dedicated grant scheme for cathedrals. We heard about how that came about and its amazing effect as it ran through to 2010. It offered £48.6 million, together with an additional £2.9 million from the Wolfson Foundation, which has also been referred to, towards the cost of repairs. Subsequently, English Heritage stopped the dedicated scheme as its 2009 cathedral fabric survey indicated that the overall state of repair of our cathedrals had improved dramatically. It is extremely encouraging to know that. Lincoln remains the only cathedral on the at-risk register, and English Heritage is supporting it. It is therefore important to note that we can be reassured that when the problems were flagged up, Governments of different persuasions took them seriously. English Heritage took forward the work. The position of cathedrals, and to a lesser degree parish churches, has been stabilised, and the debate can be set in that context. This is a very important issue, but at least the situation is more stable than it was at the beginning of the 1990s.
DCMS has a number of schemes that cathedrals can access. This year the department has allocated a one-off £1.1 million capital grant for listed places of worship. This has been allocated to the Church of England and the National Churches Trust to distribute to buildings of all denominations and faiths across the UK. The Heritage Lottery Fund focuses funding on the non-fabric aspects of buildings. For example, a £475,000 grant was awarded to the partnership between Lincoln Cathedral and Lincolnshire County Council to ensure sufficient trainees to conserve the built heritage in the area. That is extremely important.
I will move on to VAT, to which noble Lords referred. In the 2012 Budget, the Government announced that from 1 October of this year the current zero VAT rate for approved alterations to listed buildings would be replaced by the standard rate of VAT. When this was announced, the Government also committed to extending the DCMS listed places of worship grant scheme to cover any resulting VAT costs incurred by listed places of worship for alterations following the change. Listed places of worship, including cathedrals, were already eligible for grants towards VAT costs on repairs and maintenance through the scheme. It was therefore logical to extend the grant scheme to cover alterations in time for when the VAT treatment of alterations and repairs is put on the same footing. The Church of England, on behalf of all faith groups, provided evidence to the Government that further funding was needed to enable the scheme to offset successfully the impact of the VAT change. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London led the discussions with the Treasury, and I thank him for doing so.
Following those discussions, the Government announced that they would provide an additional £30 million of funding per year for the duration of this Parliament for the scheme. This brings the total annual funding available up to £42 million per year and will come into effect when the VAT rate applied to alterations to listed buildings changes. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and others, we are confident that this additional funding will fully cover the additional costs borne by listed places of worship following the VAT change. The additional resources will also enable full compensation for repair and maintenance costs eligible under the current listed places of worship grant scheme from the beginning of this financial year. Cathedrals of all denominations across the country will be able to benefit from this funding.
Baroness Northover
I think it is best if I proceed because this is a time-limited debate, and I hope that I will cover most of the issues. If I am not able to do so, I will write to noble Lords.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. Will she remind her right honourable friend the Chancellor that if he increases the rate of VAT on alterations to listed buildings from zero to 20%, it will be an irrevocable step? Under European Union law, future Chancellors will not be able to roll back on that. While we are all immensely appreciative of the £100 million that was previously provided to help listed places of worship through the listed places of worship grant scheme, along with the additional £30 million that has now been promised, the continuation of a stop-gap remedy on a time-limited basis is no substitute for a proper policy.
Baroness Northover
As I mentioned to the noble Lord, this is a time-limited debate. I am coming on to other issues in a minute. I will make sure that all the issues raised in the debate are flagged up not only with DCMS—which I am temporarily covering for in the debate; it is a great pleasure to do so—but also with the Treasury. He can be reassured about that. If there are any issues that I do not pick up in my answers, I will respond to them after the debate.
I want to pick up some of the issues that noble Lords raised in the debate. Music was a key theme in various speeches, if noble Lords will excuse the mixed metaphor. It is probably rare for one to get goose bumps in debates in the House of Lords but as the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, mentioned the specific pieces of music that we can hear in cathedrals I am afraid that that is what I got. We all recognise the importance of music in cathedrals. My noble friend Lord Black made the case that great buildings need great music. They certainly have it and we recognise the importance of making sure that it is sustained. As I mentioned, we heard from two choristers. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and my noble friend Lord Black urged support for music.
I emphasise that the Department for Education’s music and dance scheme will this year provide just over £200,000 for around 100 bursary schemes at independent choir schools through the choir schools’ scholarship scheme established in 1991. I hope that noble Lords will be pleased to hear that. Last year the scheme provided funding for choristers at a range of cathedrals including Westminster Cathedral, York Minster, Canterbury, Lincoln and Christ Church, Oxford. I need not say that choristers are a valued part of the music and dance scheme. The Department for Education will continue to support that scheme.
It was also striking to hear what is happening with education in cathedrals. I knew something of this and of course we know of their long history and significance in the medieval period. It was encouraging to hear from my noble friend Lady Byford, the right reverend prelate the Bishop of Worcester, the noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Warwick, and others how important cathedrals are in terms of education for today’s children.
We also recognise how important the cathedrals are for our tourism industry. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, emphasised the significance of that and we are acutely aware of it: we value it greatly. I mentioned but will reiterate, particularly to my noble friend Lord Cormack, that I will flag up the concerns expressed today both to DCMS and the Treasury. My noble friend mentioned a £50 million endowment fund for the care of cathedrals which should be given to English Heritage. I noticed the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, welcomed that notion, which did not surprise me. As I mentioned before, the Government have committed an additional £30 million a year to the listed places of worship scheme and £500 million to heritage organisations over this spending period.
My noble friend Lord Cormack and others asked whether the listed places of worship scheme would come to an end in 2015. It is not limited in that way and does not need to end then. It is guaranteed to the end of this Parliament. We have a fixed term and so we know that that will be until 2015, but the scheme may continue after that. I am sure that what noble Lords have said today will feed into the discussions that any future Government may have.
My noble friend Lord Tyler flagged up that he felt that the details of the listed places of worship scheme were not as clear as they might be. DCMS and HMT are currently carrying out a consultation with stakeholders on the details of that extended scheme. It is extremely important that that is happening so that we can make sure that everything is covered as it should be. As one would expect, the Church of England has been closely involved in discussions and the design of the scheme so far.
The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and others asked how confident we were that the £30 million would be sufficient. The Church of England provided the Government with evidence on the impact of the VAT changes. DCMS, the Treasury and the Church have expressed confidence that this will cover the additional costs following the VAT change and will enable 100% compensation for the repair and maintenance costs currently eligible under the scheme.
In summary, I again affirm that the Government are very much committed to supporting the preservation of cathedrals, just as we are committed to preserving the rest of our historic environment. We offer support for cathedrals through English Heritage, the Heritage Lottery Fund, the listed places of worship scheme and the DCMS capital grant, as well as schemes run by other departments. DCMS has committed more than £500 million to heritage organisations across the spending period and recently secured an extension to the listed places of worship scheme. The Government agree that it is important that cathedrals are looked after properly and provide a great deal of support for this.
This has been a stunning debate. It has taken us out of the amazing building of the House of Lords and, in our imaginations, around these cathedrals—even if they compete with each other over which is the most stunning. That was an unusual feature for a debate but made this a very important and enjoyable one. There can be no doubting the commitment to our cathedrals of those in the Chamber or of the Government.