Lord Touhig
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will introduce legislation to compel the BBC to open its books for audit by the National Audit Office.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, the Government are committed to allowing the National Audit Office full access to the BBC’s accounts for the purpose of undertaking value-for-money investigations. Her Majesty’s Government did consider, but disregarded, the use of legislation to secure full access. The objective will be achieved by amending the BBC agreement. The Government are not seeking to appoint the NAO as the BBC’s auditor, as we do not see this as central to delivering the coalition commitment.
Lord Touhig
I thank the Minister for her reply, and I very much agree with the Government—I do not believe that legislation is the way to resolve this matter. However, the fact remains that the BBC is the only publicly funded body that will not allow the National Audit Office to do value-for-money audits except on terms dictated by the BBC. That cannot be right—and the Culture Secretary agrees with me. Eight months ago, he said that there was an agreement for the NAO to audit the BBC. Two weeks ago, he said that the NAO should have unfettered access to audit the BBC. Can the Minister tell us when the Government will actually make this happen?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, for asking this Question, as it provides me with the opportunity to clarify the present situation. The talks with the BBC that he mentioned have not broken down; indeed, the Secretary of State discussed the matter with my noble friend Lord Patten when he met him just this Monday. The details of the new arrangements have still to be finalised. However, the Government’s commitment to the target date of November 2011 will be met and an announcement will be made at the appropriate time.
Baroness Deech
Does the Minister not agree that talk of compulsion in this field is entirely inappropriate given the independence of the BBC and its ownership by the licence fee payers; that services such as the World Service are expensive to provide but priceless to receive; and that number-crunching is not necessarily the answer?
Baroness Rawlings
The noble Baroness is absolutely right. The Secretary of State, in Question Time in the other place, has announced that he will allow full access to the BBC World Service, S4C and all the accounts.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the public feel a need for transparency in these things? As she said, there will be no compulsion, but the National Audit Office will publish something for the public to see. What will be published? Will there be enough information to give the public an idea of what is happening? How will this be managed without conflicting with the lack of legislation? Personally I agree with her—I would prefer there to be no legislation on this subject.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Gardner brings up a very good point. It is essential for the public to have all the knowledge possible regarding the accounts of the BBC, and the NAO will have access to all the information that it considers relevant. However, publication of information by the NAO will, of course, need to be consistent with the existing legislation on privacy and data protection.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, does the Minister agree with the noble Lord, Lord Patten, in his evidence to the Lords Communications Committee this week that the BBC should be transparent and accountable, but also that the NAO’s programme of inquiry should be properly planned and not just a random exercise or simply responsive to the whims of the media?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I am sure that I agree with the Secretary of State—and you would not expect differently. Her Majesty’s Government are not seeking to appoint the NAO as the BBC’s auditor as we do not see that as central to delivering the coalition commitment. However, we are aware that the BBC Trust is happy for the NAO to compete for this role when the current contract expires in 2012.
Lord Addington
My Lords, will my noble friend take this opportunity to assure us that no matter how the BBC is audited, it should not be at the whim of people—particularly politicians—to accuse it of bias; and also that there is a recognised process to go through, because the BBC has shown a remarkable capacity to annoy Governments of all colours?
Baroness Rawlings
My noble friend Lord Addington makes a valid point. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport announced in its structural reform plan of July 2010 that the National Audit Office would be allowed full access to the BBC’s accounts for the purpose of value-for-money investigations. This will be achieved by November 2011. It is more important to clarify the details, rather than rushing into implementing the new arrangements before the scheduled date. We are confident that this target will be met.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
My Lords, as the BBC is owned by the licence payers, when can they be told how much the BBC presenters and stars are being paid?
Baroness Rawlings
I am sure that, when the time is right, the Secretary of State will announce—
Lord Inglewood
Does my noble friend agree that while it is proper that there is appropriate transparency and accountability in the books of the BBC, it is of overriding importance that, as an institution, it remains independent of any form of political control or direction?
Baroness Rawlings
I am sure that we would all agree with my noble friend Lord Inglewood. The most important thing is for the BBC to remain independent and to keep its very high standards, which we all respect.
Lord Ryder of Wensum
My Lords, does my noble friend not agree—as indeed the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, suggested in his initial question—that we are making a mountain out of a molehill? No legislation is required. The BBC is already subject to external auditors. Its books are published in an extensive report and accounts each year. The governors have to appear before the Select Committee. Ofcom actually has enormous powers over the BBC which very few people know about and which cost the BBC—and therefore the licence payer—a huge amount of money. All that is required in this case is an agreement between the Secretary of State, as my noble friend stated, and the new chairman of the BBC for this extra transparency to come about.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Ryder, with all his long experience in this area, is absolutely right. It does need only a little tweak. As I said earlier, the Government did consider, but disregarded, the use of legislation to secure NAO access. Implementation of legislation to override the BBC agreement would run counter to the principles on which the BBC is established and its relationship with government.