Electronic Trade Documents Bill [HL]

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1 to 6.

1: Clause 5, page 3, line 24, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “appropriate authority”

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6: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—
“Regulations under section 5
(1) Any power to make regulations under section 5, so far as exercisable by the Secretary of State acting alone or by the Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers acting jointly, is exercisable by statutory instrument.
(2) For regulations made under section 5 by the Scottish Ministers acting alone, see section 27 of the 2010 Act (Scottish statutory instruments).
(3) A statutory instrument containing regulations made under section 5 by the Secretary of State acting alone, or by the Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers acting jointly, may not be made unless a draft of the instrument containing the regulations has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
(4) Regulations made under section 5 by the Scottish Ministers acting alone, or by the Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers acting jointly, are subject to the affirmative procedure (see section 29 of the 2010 Act).
(5) Where regulations are made under section 5 by the Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers acting jointly—
(a) section 29 of the 2010 Act (affirmative procedure) applies in relation to the regulations as it applies in relation to devolved subordinate legislation (within the meaning of Part 2 of that Act) which is subject to the affirmative procedure, but as if references to a Scottish statutory instrument were to a statutory instrument, and
(b) section 32 of the 2010 Act (laying) applies in relation to the laying before the Scottish Parliament of the statutory instrument containing the regulations as it applies in relation to the laying before that Parliament of a Scottish statutory instrument (within the meaning of Part 2 of that Act).
(6) In this section “the 2010 Act” means the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 (asp 10).”

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s intention has always been that this Bill should apply UK-wide. In the process of delivering this ambition, we were able to confirm that legislative consent was not required from Northern Ireland or Wales. However, in the case of Scotland, private property law, as affected by this Bill, is a devolved matter and therefore legislative consent is necessary. As a result of amendments made to the Bill in the other place, we have received legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament.

The Bill has been amended to the effect that it now confers the delegated power in Clause 5(2)(b) additionally on Scottish Ministers both to exercise the power alone within areas of devolved competence and to act jointly with the Secretary of State. By including the option for Scottish Ministers to act alone and also to act jointly with the Secretary of State, the delegated powers can be exercised in a flexible manner that best suits the prevailing need for secondary legislation. Moreover, it avoids any future uncertainty as to whether matters are within the devolved competence of Scottish Ministers, particularly if they cut across devolved and reserved matters. The requirement in Clause 5(4) for the Secretary of State to consult Scottish Ministers before exercising the power in Clause 5(2)(b) will be disapplied in circumstances where the Secretary of State and Scottish Ministers act jointly to make regulations.

As noted earlier, while the Bill is unlikely to need future amendment, we believe that such changes are best delivered through concurrent delegated powers, which will allow both the Secretary of State and Scottish Ministers to make those changes. The amendments will therefore enable Scottish Ministers to make such regulations in a case in which all the provision made by the regulations is within Scottish devolved competence, and to act jointly with, or be consulted by, the Secretary of State in other cases.

The delegated powers previously afforded to the Secretary of State by the Bill are not substantively affected by this amendment. In view of this, Amendment 6 provides for regulations under Clause 5 to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure at Westminster and in the Scottish Parliament.

In addition to these two substantive amendments, we have also had to include four consequential amendments to update and correct cross-references within the Bill. I hope noble Lords will acknowledge the requirement for the amendment to Clause 5 to change the delegated power and the consequential amendments that allow this new clause to be inserted into the Bill.

I reiterate the thanks that my noble friend Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay gave at Third Reading to all those involved in the passage of this transformational Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I have studied the amendments closely and I can see the beneficial net effect of them. I guess that Amendment 4 is probably the most crucial to the package, and I think the noble Viscount was right to introduce them together in the way he did. I do not have much to say other than that, except to congratulate the Government on having the foresight to bring this legislation forward, and to thank the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, for the work he did both in the Special Public Bill Committee and on the Floor of the House in considering the legislation.

I have a question for the noble Viscount, which I asked the last time we considered the Bill. This is a very important and significant piece of legislation that will go a long way to making the passage of international trade much easier, considering the impact that it could have. It will make it much easier to trade across international boundaries, and the volume of trade is such that removing the constraint on the use of electronic communication is extremely important. It is estimated that it could save as much as 15% of current transaction costs. That would be a considerable net benefit to the UK economy.

The one thing that worried and troubled me during our consideration was that there did not seem to be an implementation plan. When I quizzed the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, on this, I was less than convinced by his response; I hope he was more convinced than I was. I do not see a plan yet. There is a role for one of the government departments involved in this to take a lead. It is really important that it does so in a way that works well with business, and consults business and all other interests to ensure that we get the maximum from this legislation; otherwise, I suspect it will lie unused.

We are one of only two jurisdictions that have made advances and progress on this. I know that others are looking at our work in the field and, if we can make a success of it, others will undoubtedly follow—but it needs leadership at the top to make this useful piece of legislation workable in future and to enhance our credentials as an international trading country.

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[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments as set out. In doing so, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register.

This is the most important Bill that no one has ever heard of. It demonstrates what we can do when we combine the potential of these new technologies with the great good fortune of common law that we have in this country. I particularly support the comments made by the noble Lords, Lord Bassam and Lord Clement-Jones, about the Government’s plan for implementation. Although it is obviously critical that we get Royal Assent to this Bill as soon as possible, that is really where the work begins. As my noble friend the Minister knows, the Bill is rightly permissive in nature; it cannot be that, having done all the work through both Houses of Parliament, the Bill is then just left on the shelf. There needs to be an active plan for implementation, communicating to all the sectors and all the organisations, institutions and brilliant businesses in this space to seize the opportunity that comes from electronic trade documents. Does my noble friend the Minister agree— and will he fill out some more detail on what that implementation plan is?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank all three noble Lords who have commented. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and others have rightly raised the issue of how we implement the provision, and I could not agree more strongly that the prospect of such a brilliant and transformational Bill gathering dust on a shelf is rather depressing; it would be a great waste.

Industry is very keen to implement this itself, but it is on us to track how that is going and ensure that it does. On how exactly industry goes about it, I would like to write to noble Lords to explain that, because I very much recognise the importance of the question.

With respect to any actions envisaged in Clause 5, nothing is currently envisaged.

Motion agreed.

Counter Disinformation Unit

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strasburger (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In so doing, I draw the House’s attention to the fact that I chair Big Brother Watch, which recently reported on the Counter Disinformation Unit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

The role of the Counter Disinformation Unit—CDU—is to understand disinformation narratives and attempts to manipulate the information environment. This has included disinformation threats relating to the Covid pandemic and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Freedom of speech and expression are important principles that underpin the work of the CDU, including the fact that it does not monitor individuals or political debate, or refer content from politicians, political parties or journalists to social media companies.

[Lord Strasburger (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Research by Big Brother Watch has revealed that Members of both Houses of Parliament, including prominent Conservatives, have been included in the dossiers of the Counter Disinformation Unit and the rapid response unit for doing nothing more than criticising the Government and their policies. Does the Minister agree that the CDU’s monitoring of political dissent, under the cover of countering disinformation, has serious ramifications for freedom of expression and our democracy more broadly?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question but do not accept the characterisation that he gives. I am indeed familiar with the Big Brother Watch report that he refers to. The CDU does not monitor individuals or politicians. It does not refer politicians, journalists or elected officials to social media companies. It looks instead for overall narratives that attempt to interfere with or pollute our information environment.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, as I understand it, the Orwellian-sounding Counter Disinformation Unit was set up to counter disinformation threats to our democratic way of life. Can this unlikely-sounding unit—if it really exists—be used to counter the Government’s appeal to latent racism, with their suggestion that hordes of refugees are coming to our shores in small boats, threatening our way of life, when in reality they constitute less than 5% of annual immigration?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The CDU has not been deployed on any side of the small boats debate.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I accept the point made that the Counter Disinformation Unit sounds rather suspicious. The unit tracks narratives and trends using publicly available information. We all like a good story, so where can we find these narratives and trends. Are they published? Where is the unit established, and what is its budget and its staffing level?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The unit is established within the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. Its existence and mission, and indeed the legal basis for its activities, are posted on GOV.UK. Because the great majority of its activities are now directed at overseas state actors hostile to our interests, we do not share in a public forum any operational details pertaining to its activity, simply for fear of giving an advantage to our overseas adversaries. However, I recognise the importance and seriousness of the question. To that end, while I cannot in a public forum provide operational details, if the noble Lord or any other noble Lords would like an operational briefing, I would be happy to arrange that.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the CDU outsources its surveillance activities to opaque companies such as Logically and Faculty. It does not respond to Freedom of Information Act requests. Its budget is not public. Is it not quite unacceptable that there is no parliamentary oversight by any Select Committee, and is the place for that not the Intelligence and Security Committee?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I am delighted to reassure the noble Lord that it is subject to parliamentary oversight. The DSIT Secretary of State is accountable to Parliament, and indeed to the relevant parliamentary Select Committee.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as someone who featured in that Big Brother Watch report as a result of Freedom of Information requests. I seem to have been—goodness knows why—a subject of investigation by this unit, despite having played no role in pro-Russian or anti-vaccine activity. I am a little nervous about this. Perhaps I could take up the noble Viscount on his offer, with a group of any others who feel a little uncomfortable about what we are hearing.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

As I say, the work of the CDU does not target any individual, and specifically it does not refer to any social media company the publications and writings of any Member of Parliament or any journalist. It does not go after political debate in any way. Inevitably, we are blessed in this House to have a number of prominent thinkers and writers, and their thinking and writing would end up in all kinds of departmental media summaries, as you would expect. Any subject access request would necessarily pick those up. That is not to suggest that the noble Baroness or any other Member of this House have been targeted individually by the CDU.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, is the Minister able to assure us that the Counter Disinformation Unit never pressurised anyone in big tech to censor by proxy? The public are owed that explanation, not just parliamentarians. Can the Minister comment on the danger of weaponising phrases such as misinformation and disinformation to discredit inconvenient truths and to silence dissent? These are serious concerns that members of the public have, and the Minister should answer the Freedom of Information requests when they are given to him, as requested.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the concern— I really do. I suggest that the greatest threat to our freedom of speech and freedom of expression is in fact disinformation itself, because however good or true a post might be, if nobody believes it, it is absolutely useless. To answer the first part of the noble Baroness’s question, the CDU does not place pressure on social media organisations and cannot oblige social media organisations of any kind to remove posts. What it can do is advise them that certain bits of content might or might not adhere to their terms of service.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, surely it is the job of politicians to put forward the truth and dispute what they consider to be unreasonable or disinformation with facts, reason, logic and ridicule, not to have a secret institution—which should be closed down.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not accept the characterisation of the institution as secret.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Well, its existence is being debated here. I have lost the thread of my answer but I will provide a more satisfactory answer to my noble friend.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, a moment ago the Minister talked about the relevant Select Committee. Could he tell us what the relevant Select Committee is for this unit and when it last conducted an investigation into its work?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The DSIT Select Committee —or, formerly, before the machinery of government changed, the DCMS Select Committee—keeps the unit’s performance under constant review, as with any group or team in government.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister forgot—I think inadvertently—to answer the request from my noble friend. Would he be prepared to meet a delegation, as she would like him to?

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[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I apologise to the noble Baroness. Yes, of course I would.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, we went through considerable consideration of foreign state threats during the passage of the National Security Act, during which the Government did not present any information about this unit. We now have an independent reviewer of national security legislation for foreign state threats. Why is this unity not within the remit of the independent reviewer?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The purpose of this unit is to monitor information threats, whether state-backed or otherwise. While it would certainly engage with all the necessary other parts of government, its work is not necessarily seen as a part of that body.

Advanced Research and Innovation Agency

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper—especially as it is the first time there has ever been a Question about ARIA in this Chamber.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

ARIA’s initial focus has been on attracting world-class talent to create transformative programmes and on developing the organisation’s investment strategy. The Government have made a long-term commitment to ARIA, and I am confident that its creation will help cement the UK as a science and technology superpower, attracting top talent to our shores to grow the economy, boost prosperity and develop ground-breaking discoveries that could transform people’s lives for the better.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. As I hope the House knows, this is a really new and exciting part of our scientific landscape, and I hope that the whole House wishes it well. Nevertheless, we still have some obligation to keep an eye on it. Could the Minister outline a little more about its early stages. How often does the board meet? How much money has been spent so far on premises and staff? How many programme managers have been appointed? Have areas where they will operate been identified, or is ARIA still in the business of encouraging outside suggestions that they will continue?

In short—

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

In short, I think that the House would like to keep an eye on how things are going, and we wish it well.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Let me start by thanking the noble Viscount for raising the Question about this exciting organisation and for helpfully expressing his enthusiasm for it. He asked a range of questions, which I shall answer with one overarching point—that ARIA has been set up with complete strategic and operational autonomy away from government, so the more that government tries to interfere or find out about its day-to-day ongoings, the less autonomously it can behave, and that would introduce a system that would end up being antithetical to its existence.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, I was a strong supporter of ARIA when the legislation went through to establish it and I remain a strong supporter of it. It is too early to know how it is performing because it is a long-term strategy of a high-risk, high-reward enterprise. However, I have absolute faith in Ilan Gur, its chief executive, and the board of directors, who are the guardians of the funds it is given. I have some information, but I too am not in a position to reveal it—but I am confident that ARIA will succeed.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his vote of confidence. It is a new kind of organisation that will invest with a high-risk appetite to shoot for outcomes that are bold, substantive and deeply impactful.

[Lord Hintze (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my philanthropic interests in this area. Specifically, what I would like to ask the Minister is again to echo the points on timing and the amount of effect we will have through this effort.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. As far as the timing goes, ARIA was legally established on 25 January. The focus has been on recruiting the right people. It is a small organisation, designed to be lean and agile. That means it is absolutely dependent on the quality of the small team it has working for it. That is the focus for now. We look forward to the first announcements of programme directors. I hope that will be in the autumn.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is participating remotely.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, will this organisation, with its £800 million potential budget, much of it public money, be subject to fully accountable FoI applications? If not, why not? The public interest is best served in conditions of transparency.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Uniquely for a partnering organisation with the Government, ARIA is not subject to FoI because it is designed to be a small organisation. Laying on it the burden of FoI administration would, I fear, be antithetical to its purpose. However, that is not to suggest that there is an absence of transparency. It has statutory requirements to publish audited accounts and an annual report, both of which will be laid before Parliament.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, there is some concern that there are no mechanisms in place to plug in the appropriate humanities and social science areas right from the beginning of projects. What reassurance can the Minister give that social sciences and humanities will be plugged in right at the beginning of projects?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Decisions about what areas to investigate, what projects to finance and what activities to conduct sit wholly within the management and directorship of ARIA. That is the way the organisation is designed, so it would not be appropriate for government to dictate any emphasis in any particular area.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister can gather, the establishment of ARIA received widespread support from all sides of the House. However, ARIA benefits from £800 million a year of public money and the wider research community, as well as the public, should be entitled to know something about how that money is spent. I note what the Minister said about accounts and annual reports, but it is my understanding that ARIA has also promised to provide a three-year strategy and corporate plan, which will be presented. Can he confirm that that will also be publicly available? While we have the Minister’s attention, could he please update the House on progress on negotiating UK participation in the Horizon programme?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Quickly on Horizon, which we debated quite fully yesterday, I am unable, since yesterday, to provide any further information, I am afraid. Where appropriate, reports from ARIA will be laid before Parliament and available for public scrutiny. I stress that we really want to avoid a situation in which we create an administrative burden on top of ARIA because, for it to succeed in the way we envisage it succeeding, it must remain a lean, agile and, ideally, small organisation.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, this country has never been short of inventors with good ideas, but it has been much less good at putting those ideas through into marketable products, the economic benefits of which have all too often gone elsewhere. What emphasis is being placed in this programme on pulling sufficient private sector capital into these initiatives at a sufficiently early stage—initiatives which of course in some cases are bound to fail.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I very much accept the thrust of the noble Lord’s point, which is that nationally we perhaps have more of a tendency to invent than to commercialise. As much as anything else, ARIA is in place to help address that.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, what is the potential relationship between ARIA and the Pioneer programme, which as we heard yesterday might replace Horizon if there is no agreement with the EU?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Whether we reassociate to Horizon or go down the Pioneer alternative, ARIA is designed to be complementary to those programmes. It has a higher tolerance of risk and seeks more long-shot opportunities, one advantage of that being that rapid lessons learned can quickly be transmitted to organisations with a necessarily lower tolerance of risk, thereby allowing everybody to benefit from its learnings.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, there is clear logic in protecting big and bold thinking from the constraints of bureaucracy, but it would be a mistake to think that there are two types of invention: the big ideas and the day-to-day research that goes on in our institutes and universities. Big ideas often start small. How can the Government ensure that the ring-fence is permeable so that the investment in ARIA benefits the entire research ecosystem?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed—again, the point is well taken. We cannot have these types of organisations existing in separate universes and not talking to each other. It is crucial that they exploit their complementarity in this way.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, we are all very supportive of ARIA, but the important issue is the innovation principle and embedding that principle across government in all departments. Defra published five environmental principles—integration, prevention, rectification, polluter pays and precautionary—but there was no innovation principle. It is essential that we see the innovation principle right across government.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. As set out in the ARIA Act, ARIA is required to observe three principles that come under the broad heading of innovation: contributing to the economic growth of the UK; promoting scientific innovation in the UK; and improving quality of life of everyone in the UK.

Horizon Europe

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what financial assessment they have made of the benefits to the United Kingdom’s economy arising from scientific discoveries or advances achieved as a result of the United Kingdom’s former participation in Horizon Europe.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

We are moving forward with discussions on the UK’s involvement in Horizon Europe. That is our preference, but our participation must work for UK researchers, businesses and taxpayers. If we are not able to secure association on fair and appropriate terms, we will implement Pioneer, our bold and ambitious alternative. Our participation in previous European programmes had positive employment and commercial effects, hence our position on Horizon Europe and our development of Pioneer as an alternative.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

Since my noble friend is obviously struggling to answer the question and quantify the benefits to the economy of our former participation in Horizon Europe, can he explain why the Government appear to be so keen to rejoin? If they are going to rejoin, will he consider at least getting an opt-out from clusters 2 and 3 of Pillar 2, which fund social sciences research, from which I really cannot see any advantage at all to the working people of this country, who are being expected to pay for them?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the question. The Government really do see benefit in our past and, I hope, future association to Horizon and its predecessor programmes. Analysis of our participation as a member state in the previous framework programmes found that UK participants received approximately €7 billion in framework programme 7. That represented 15.4% of the total awarded, which exceeded by 16% what would have been anticipated on the basis purely of our GDP share. As regards the pillars we would join, I note that under the terms of the TCA, we opted out from the Pillar 3 equity fund but otherwise elected to join all the remaining pillars, and those are the terms under which we continue to seek association today.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that the main benefit that universities see in Horizon is the potential to build close and lasting partnerships with institutions on the continent, for which there can be no domestic substitute? It is from those partnerships that the benefits about which the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, inquired flow in great measure.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed, and the Government recognise very strongly the benefits of collaboration not merely with the EU 27 but globally. The range of benefits includes not just academic benefits but the ability to build our R&D capacity; employment effects; commercial benefits, of course; and leveraging in additional investments as a result of the research.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, do His Majesty’s Government have any other metric of assessing the benefits of membership of Horizon Europe beyond the purely financial that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, is looking at? Already, we have heard about patterns of co-operation. At this point, I was going to declare my interests as stated in the register, but I might just point out that I am a professor of European politics, which fits into social sciences, so I do believe that co-operation can be very beneficial.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. As the specific analysis for association to the Horizon Europe programme is currently being negotiated, I cannot comment on what the analysis is there. I can say that, going back to framework programme 7, the predecessor programme to Horizon, almost 91% of UK participants stated that their project would not have gone ahead had they not participated in FP7. That equates to roughly 41,000 partnerships at risk of never having happened and 29,000 collaborations with non-UK participants potentially lost.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, Horizon framework programmes and Horizon 2020 programmes contributed enormously, as the Minister just said, to research and development in the United Kingdom. But coming back to social sciences and humanities, the figure quoted was over £600 million of EU funding, particularly to Oxford University. So it does have economic benefits.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I take the point, but I am not sure there was a question there for me to answer.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

The benefits of Horizon are frequently asserted but very rarely demonstrated. Often those assertions come from those who have a vested interest, having been recipients under the old system, as indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, was just honest enough to admit in the form in which she put her question. Will my noble friend the Minister tell me whether the Government have done any cost-benefit analysis of Britain joining on the terms the EU is demanding?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. As all noble Lords would expect, a very detailed and comprehensive value analysis has taken place as part of the current ongoing negotiations to associate with the Horizon programme. In the words of the Chancellor yesterday, the negotiations have reached a point that is “crunchy”, and for that reason, I cannot discuss any of the details of our negotiating position, not least our evaluation of various outcomes.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, if we are going to quote important people in relation to this debate—and I commend the noble Lord for asking this Question, although I disagree with him—can I point out that the president of the Royal Society, Sir Adrian Smith, is on record as saying that people are leaving Britain to do research elsewhere or not coming to Britain because we are not members of Horizon Europe? The Nobel Prize-winning scientist, Sir Paul Nurse, head of the Francis Crick Institute, has said that every month that goes by without an agreement is deeply damaging both to science and to the country. Does the Minister agree, and if so, what are the Government doing about it and when will they make a decision?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

As I have said, the Government’s preferred position is to associate to the Horizon programme. As to what we are doing about it, we are negotiating purposefully with the EU to bring that about. However, that association has to take place on fair and appropriate terms. Should we not be able to secure those fair and appropriate terms, we will implement Pioneer, our bold and ambitious alternative.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Can my noble friend the Minister reassure us that the Government see that there is a world beyond white Europe—that there is much innovation across the world, not just in the EU? While of course we want to be members of the Horizon scheme, we should not enter at any price. An example I would give is that when I was an academic, we got money from the Jean Monnet fund, and it insisted that we rename our international business course “European business”—a small European view of the world, when we should be looking globally.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for making that important point. When talking about Horizon, we often slip into the language of concerning ourselves only with collaborations with the universities of Europe. Nothing could be further from good scientific practice or, indeed, from anybody’s intention.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

We recognise the Government’s ongoing safety net for researchers in the absence of the Horizon programme. It is welcome. However, it is the continuing uncertainty that has led to the drop-off in participation and, as we have heard, projects moving overseas. As a member between 2014 and 2020, the UK received a disproportionately beneficial amount of funding, leading to ready-made routes and established funding streams into a range of projects, covering heritage, AIDS vaccines, autonomous vehicles, aerospace manufacturing, and noise pollution. This is urgent. When can we end this uncertainty? Can we have a clear route to the decision-making process that is needed?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I would like nothing more than to give a definitive date by which a decision will be made one way or the other. The negotiations are ongoing and at a mature stage, with purpose on both sides. More than that I cannot say for fear of prejudicing their outcome.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, it is now four months and a day. The urgency has been rather absent in the various remarks of the Government. I support the comment made by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake. This is a straight argument about money, and if one tries to amortise this amount of money over one or one-and-a-bit Horizons, you come up with a difficult analysis, where it looks very expensive. If you try to amortise it over several Horizons, you suddenly realise—this applies to both parties in this negotiation—that one is arguing about a row of beans. Can the Minister give us some comfort at least that the British side is seeking to amortise the costs involved over a number of Horizons and therefore is beginning to see that this is not a very large amount of money?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Yes, I very much take the point that scientific research does not take place over intervals of seven years but is a long-term undertaking and an important endeavour. Certainly, the Government’s thinking is very much aligned with that. I hope that my words can convey some of our sense of urgency but in these negotiations, we cannot set firm deadlines.

Animal Torture: Online Videos

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of (1) the availability of animal torture videos on the internet, and (2) whether existing legislation is sufficient to punish people in the United Kingdom who are involved in the creation or promotion of such content.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

We are aware of the prevalence of appalling animal cruelty videos online and take this issue very seriously. The Animal Welfare Act 2006 is commonly used to tackle domestic animal cruelty and it is an offence under the Communications Act 2003, which can be used to address offensive material being circulated online, be it from the UK or not.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, the recent reports about the global network to encourage and film the torture of baby monkeys for profit were harrowing. Internet users wanted to see animals hurt with pliers and hammers and set on fire, and then they were paying to watch the results. My noble friend Lord Stevenson’s amendment to the Online Safety Bill sought to add such severe animal cruelty to the list of priority offences, but it was rejected by the Government. I have read the Hansard, and it seems to me it was rejected because it was too difficult. Does the Minister agree that if an offence is illegal offline, it should be illegal online? If the Government are not prepared to include this in that Bill, will he commit to work with Defra to bring in the necessary animal welfare legislation?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The debate on this matter in Committee on the Online Safety Bill was well attended and certainly well received. The purpose of the Online Safety Bill is to intervene between the platforms on which the distressing images are published and the users who see those platforms. It is, first, for human beings and, secondly, for their experiences online. The appalling instances that the noble Baroness referenced, particularly in the BBC documentary, would themselves be covered by either the Animal Welfare Act or the Communications Act, both of which make those criminal offences without the need for recourse to the Online Safety Bill.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, these offences are bad enough by themselves, but does the Minister accept that there is a direct connection between animal cruelty and violence towards humans? If so, is this not yet another reason why the Government should use the Online Safety Bill to combat animal cruelty offences and make this a priority offence under the Bill?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I join the whole House in absolutely deploring these behaviours. The concern about adding animal cruelty offences to the Online Safety Bill is that it is a Bill built around the experiences online of human beings. To rearchitect the Bill around actions perpetrated or commissioned on animals runs the risk of diminishing the effectiveness of the Bill.

[Lord Trees (CB)]

My Lords, needless to say, the behaviour referred to in this Question shows indescribable cruelty to animals. It is extremely concerning that anybody should do these things or, indeed, want to view them. It urgently emphasises the need for better regulation of the internet to reduce the danger of copying behaviour. Is the Minister aware—I fear that the noble Lord has just made him aware—of the increasing evidence that malicious cruelty to animals is a precursor, and can lead, to violent and abusive behaviour towards humans? Is this not another indication, were it needed, of why we need to better regulate the internet with regard to cruelty to animals?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the argument that increased cruelty to animals promotes further bad behaviour, including violence between humans, but I stress the point that the purpose of the Online Safety Bill is to bring into law a range of limitations on what can be published and what can be seen online by human beings. There are laws that effectively criminalise cruel behaviour to animals and the action of publishing evidence of cruelty to animals online; those laws just happen not to be the Online Safety Bill.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister says that the Government are against cruelty to animals, yet we have just heard that the present legislation does not stop it. Is it not the case that we need regulation that will prosecute and convict people involved in these practices? Can he tell us how many people have been prosecuted so far this year for animal cruelty?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I have the numbers prosecuted for animal cruelty in my notes somewhere; I will happily write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, at the moment the law we have been talking about has been preventing those who are perpetrating the harm and publishing it, but is there any merit in going after the people who are watching it and paying for it and have it on their computers—the consumers who ultimately are generating the harm at the end?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. I stress that laws preventing these behaviours are already in existence, and the Online Safety Bill supports those laws in some sense. If content is illegal, platforms are obliged to take it down. If content creates a risk of harm to children, again, platforms are obliged to take it down. In the case of the largest platforms, the so-called category 1 platforms, if content violates their terms of service, they are obliged to take it down.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Minister’s central argument is that we do not need any amendments to the current Bill because these offences already exist, surely the response is that they are clearly not working because, from all the evidence we have heard, this cruelty is continuing. If the existing legislation simply is not working, surely the option of providing new legislation is precisely what is required.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not accept either that the existing legislation is not working or that, if it is not, the way to fix it is to make an amendment that redirects the Online Safety Bill in such a dramatic and fundamental way.

[Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl)]

Does the Minister not agree that, on the basis of what has been said in the House today, there is clearly a problem? There appears to be some disagreement over exactly how that problem is to be solved, but does he agree that if there is a problem, it needs to be solved sooner rather than later?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I certainly agree that there is a problem. I am afraid that over the course of a year, the Social Media Animal Cruelty Coalition documented about 5,500 individual links to videos containing animal cruelty on the major platforms—YouTube, Facebook and TikTok—but globally the number of views of those incidents exceeded 5 billion. So I agree that there is a problem but I do not accept that the solution to it is a radical change to the Online Safety Bill, as was debated in Committee. I am open to working with my colleagues in Defra on what a more effective solution might be.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Is the Minister aware that he is very lucky that my almost namesake, the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, is not in the House today, otherwise he would be in dead trouble?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I am grateful for it.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

Would it be of help to my noble friend to consider that what we have heard today clearly sets out a difference between a crime of being cruel to an animal and what he proposes to bring forward in the Online Safety Bill? If in the Bill he simply added at the appropriate point—I am not familiar enough with it to know at exactly what point, but he will know—the words “and all sentient beings”, would that not include some of the animals we are talking about? It would not cover them all since there are other living creatures that would not be regarded as sentient, but certainly primates would be, and they have been mentioned today. Would that help my noble friend? Clearly there is a difference. I say this as someone who had ministerial responsibility many years ago for the welfare of farm animals. Would that not solve the problem? Could he at least explore it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I am happy to explore all creative and inventive solutions to the very real problem of reducing not only cruelty to animals but people’s deplorable enjoyment of that cruelty.

Deafblindness: Emerging Technologies

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of Cradley]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the possibilities of emerging technologies to create new opportunities for people who are deafblind.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

The Government are continually reviewing and assessing the possibilities afforded by new and emerging technologies, particularly to support disabled people or anyone with specific access requirements. We believe we can achieve this by promoting bold discoveries, growing the economy, and being at the cutting edge of assistive and accessible technology—ATech. Our ambition is to make the UK the most accessible place in the world to live and work with technology.

[Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, today is Helen Keller’s birthday. Born in 1880, she was both deaf and blind, and was one of the most well-known deafblind people in history, as she campaigned tirelessly. That is why this week, the week of her birthday, is when Deafblind Awareness Week takes place.

I thank the Minister for his reply. There are more than 450,000 deafblind people in the UK, and Sense predicts that, by 2030, that number will increase to more than 600,000. Will the Government commit to increasing their work with major technology companies such as Google, which is actively co-creating assistive technology with and for people with complex disabilities? In particular, will the Government support those people with complex disabilities who are looking for work with the equipment that they need by the introduction of a fund to ensure that adequate assistive technology is available in all jobcentres?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising her Question this week, which is, of course, Deafblind Awareness Week. I take this opportunity to pass my very best wishes to those who suffer from the affliction and those who work with them.

The Government are working with providers of technology of all different sizes in this space. The noble Baroness referred to Google’s new centre for technology for disabled people, which highlights its recognition that the UK is the right place for it to operate in this market. I could point to a number of fascinating new innovations by smaller organisations, but I will restrict myself to just one: BrightSign has created a life-changing AI-based smart glove, giving voice to the voiceless by enabling sign language users to communicate without an interpreter.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister rightly identified that there are many excellent technologies using smartphones and tablets that are designed to help those who are deafblind achieve greater independence. I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, on raising this Question during Deafblind Awareness Week. What co-ordination role does the new department, DSIT, have in this respect—there are many departments, and a couple have been mentioned already—and what resources does it have to help with training and information on these vital technologies?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

As the noble Lord rightly points out, identifying the appropriate technologies by scanning the horizon for those that will be of most impact and use is, and must be, a cross-governmental matter. I take every opportunity to urge my fellow Ministers to fight the good fight in this respect. DSIT’s role is as the provider and exemplar of technology use to all of government and the public sector, and indeed all of the UK, but all government departments recognise their responsibility to continuously identify ways to use technology and to make technology in the United Kingdom as accessible as it can possibly be.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I support the points that the noble Baroness made and note the staggering figure of 450,000. Would it be possible for the Minister to extend the review to include work undertaken at universities? There may well be scope for co-ordinating that work to help not only them and deafblind people but those in the commercial sector who are looking for new ideas.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

DSIT works extensively across universities on this and other programmes. In addition, the Government commission a range of research, particularly in the area of deafblindness, not least, for instance, into the procurement of hearing aids by the NHS.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, we on our Benches very much welcome the research and development that is taking place, and the pretty unprecedented pace at which new technologies become available. However, this poses a challenge, not just for government departments, charities and individuals but for wider society. To pursue the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I would like to pin the Minister down a bit more on what he sees as his department’s role, and that of the Department of Health and Social Care, in accrediting and procuring these emerging technologies. He seems to suggest that departments should just get on and do it themselves, without any plan or strategy. That cannot be right.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. I certainly hope my remarks did not come across as me asking other ministries to merely improvise in this space. DSIT can contribute in three very important ways under the structure of the science and technology framework, the ambition of which is to make us a science and tech superpower by 2030. We can make three distinction contributions: first, by growing the economy overall through the use of science and technology; secondly, by driving innovation in all areas; and, thirdly, and most pertinently to this Question, by ensuring that the technology developed in this space is always as inclusive and accessible as it can possibly be.

[Lord Borwick (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a trustee of the Ewing Foundation for deaf children. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that the progress of most children with sensory disabilities has been excellent, mainly due to dedicated teachers and modern electronics, such as cochlear implants, hearing aids and sound fields? However, these have to be maintained. Would it be a good idea for schools regularly to test their electronic equipment provided for the pupils to make sure it is working?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the question and pay tribute to his ongoing work in this space. Supporting deaf children through the use of audiological equipment involves a range of government agencies, including the NHS, schools and local authorities’ social care teams. If a child is deaf, NHS audiology services work with multidisciplinary teams, which include teachers for the deaf, paediatricians, speech and language therapists, and cochlear implant teams, as well as the parents and guardians, and between them they agree individual management plans. Children who use audiological equipment based on this plan should of course be offered regular appointments with their audiology team to check their hearing and ears and to ensure that their audiological equipment is working and adjusted as necessary.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister is right in recognising that smaller companies are developing technologies for the deafblind, without using the internet, combining spectacles and hearing aids. The important point is that, when these technologies reach maturity, they are available to people who are deafblind. Digital technologies for the deaf, for instance, are currently not available on the NHS and are quite expensive on the private market. We must make sure they are available on the NHS when these technologies mature.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I suppose the structural problem overall is that those who find themselves disabled, with whatever disability, are in a very small group, and the smaller the group, the more difficult it is for manufacturers of equipment to provide for them in a commercially viable way. The Government have a number of levers they can pull in this space: first, by commissioning research directly; secondly, by the public sector procurement programme—we spend on average £1.5 billion every year on procuring ATech; and, finally, by working with partner organisations, such as UKRI and Innovate UK, to seed and fund emerging technology in the ATech space.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Is the Minister aware that the excellent “Strictly Come Dancing” winner, Rose Ayling-Ellis, who is herself deaf, has proposed that BSL lessons be given to everyone freely? What is the Government’s response?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I very much enjoyed the interview on the radio today to which the noble Lord refers. The British Sign Language Advisory Board has been established to help advise the Government on the implementation of the British Sign Language Act 2022, which legally recognises BSL as a language of England, Wales and Scotland. It is important to note here that the BSL board has a reserved place for a deafblind person, and an additional member of the board is deaf- blind. We look forward to receiving and acting on its advice in this space.

Emergency Communications

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent]

To ask His Majesty’s Government (1) when they became aware of yesterday’s fault with the 999 emergency system and (2) what action they are taking to ensure the resilience of emergency communications.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

A technical issue with the 999 public emergency call system was reported to us at 9.20 am on Sunday 25 June 2023. This issue has now been fully resolved and the service is running as normal. A full investigation is under way to understand what caused this problem. Ofcom has formally requested information from BT, using its existing powers as the independent regulator. The Government are conducting a post-incident report to identify actions that will strengthen the resilience of the 999 public emergency call service.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, this is an incredibly disconcerting event. We all rely on the 999 emergency number as our ultimate safety net at times of distress and vulnerability. Any failure in the system will undermine faith in our emergency provision. We are seemingly very fortunate that there was no major incident yesterday morning. Can the Minister inform the House whether this eventuality—the loss of the main 999 capacity—has been tested in any training exercise for major incidents? Are the Government clear on what the potential risks associated with the use of the back-up system are, and what risk there might be to public safety as a result of the system’s failure?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Following the failure of the system, three strands of investigation have been put in place. First, BT is performing its own internal investigation. Secondly, Ofcom is engaging directly with BT, which it is required to regulate. Thirdly, based on the findings of those two, there will be the Government’s lessons learned approach. The combination of all those will allow us to learn lessons to improve future resilience of the system.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, one of the worrying things about this incident is not the failure of the main 999 service itself—although that is bad enough—but the failure of the back-up as well. The Minister will know that I have raised the issue of the changeover from analogue to digital on a consistent basis, particularly BT’s digital voice changeover. This changeover from analogue to digital creates huge risks. Will the Minister say whether the incident report will also include a wider look at the changeover from analogue to digital? There are huge risks involved in this. This is critical infrastructure, and in the case of emergency, it is even more important that we have an analogue back-up to our digital services.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I pay tribute to the noble Lord’s frequent correspondence with me on this subject and recognise the importance of what he says. I do not want to prejudge the findings of the deep root-cause analysis that will now be going on at both BT and Ofcom level, but I will make sure that that question is at least asked, and asked forcefully.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

The Minister must be deeply troubled that not one but two critical technology platforms in our national security infrastructure have failed in a very short space of time—the Border Force as well as 999—and, in each case, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has just said, with no immediate back-up coming into play. Will the Government ascertain whether any deep common causes underlie these failures and, therefore, what other parts of our national technology structure, not just our national technology security infrastructure, may be at risk?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed, I recognise the risk that the noble Lord describes. One of the absolute priorities must be to identify whether there is a broader systemic risk of which the unfortunate events yesterday were a symptom or whether this is isolated; the ongoing investigation will absolutely establish that.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register, in particular that I chair the National Preparedness Commission. As we understand it, this was a failure of the 999 system itself. What consideration have the Government given to circumstances in which there is an interruption in electrical power? That could mean, first, that there will need to be reliance on analogue systems—as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones referred to—but also that most domestic landlines will cease to function and, within a couple of hours, so too will most mobile phones, because masts will no longer have power.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

It will be an area covered by the report. I stress that, from the information that I have so far, BT was able to implement its disaster recovery planning and system and return, albeit at a slightly slower pace, to the ability to answer 999 calls. I very much take the point that the wrong combination of catastrophic failures would indeed create a very serious and broad situation.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, people dealing with a health crisis may call either 111 or 999 and each of those services will refer people on to the other as appropriate. Can the Minister confirm that there are protocols in place such that the operators of each service are informed as soon as one of them goes down so that they can stop referring people on, and whether there are protocols in place for each service to handle the overload if one has gone down?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

It is an excellent question; I am afraid the truth is that I do not know the answer at this point, but I will be happy to write to the noble Lord.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister would be the first to agree that an event of this kind is really serious. He has told the House when the Government were informed. When did British Telecom first know that there was a problem, how was it communicated to Ministers and—once the inquiry that has now been indicated happens—in what way, and when, will the House be informed of the outcome of it so that we can discuss any of the consequences as a result of what we find went wrong?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I accept the great seriousness of the situation. The event that caused the platform to go down occurred at 6.30 am on Sunday. The Government were advised of the event at 9.20 am, so just under three hours later. I understand that the Government were informed as quickly as was practically possible. One area that the inquiry will look into is whether that should or could have been faster. As regards when and how the findings will be presented to the House, let me think about the best way of doing so; I will commit to sharing that in the most appropriate way.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, the major response seemed to be to continue to dial 101. What worries about me about that is that at the moment the average waiting time for people to get through on 101 is five minutes, which is already hugely too long. If other calls go into that system, then the call time can only get longer, and it cannot discriminate between emergency and non-emergency calls.

I have some worries in relation to announcements. First, there was no announcement that the script that the call handlers were using had been changed. Often people were trying to problem-solve on the phone rather than just finding out what needed to happen and then despatching resources if necessary. Secondly, I heard nothing about officers or ambulance people getting out of offices so that people could go to find them, if that was possible. That is what happens with paramedics at the moment: they park up in certain places, provided that those places are identified for people to go to.

Thirdly, is it not time that we started having joint call handling? At the moment we have three separate forces, and the only reason why BT needs to take the call is that the ambulance service, the fire service and the police have to take them independently. You have to make a call to BT to declare which service you require, often at a time when you do not actually know which one you need. Why do we not answer them together? Why do we not remove the cost that BT imposes on the whole system, since it appears that it has not worked very well on this occasion?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

There are a range of important questions there. First, BT provides the service of call handling directly to the communications providers. The CPs then act as they are required to, as regulated by Ofcom.

On the question of the script, call handlers were required to update their script because, once the disaster recovery system had kicked in, it no longer provided geographical information and therefore the script required them to ascertain the location of the caller, which is normally done automatically. I forget some other parts of the noble Lord’s question, but if he would like to contact me for follow-up then I will be happy to answer them.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, given the serious nature and the longevity of the system failure, was there a COBRA meeting about this incident? If so, when did it meet? If it did not, is that because it was a Sunday?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

To my knowledge, there was no COBRA meeting—I imagine because the disaster recovery system kicked in and was able to meet the emergency requirements.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure that specific recommendations will come out of the inquiry, but there should also be systematic ones that apply to other areas of national infrastructure. This is not the only single strand of infrastructure that is put in the hands of one private sector company that keeps people’s services alive. Will the Minister undertake that those systematic lessons are applied across the piece and across government?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not want to prejudge the outcome of the inquiries. If they determine that there are systemic issues that need to be addressed, then we will put in place a plan to address them.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, I ask this question as an ex-police and crime commissioner. What assurances have Ministers sought from the emergency services that there were no serious issues as a result of the failure of the 999 system? Secondly, have they asked for confirmation of that from both BT and the relevant emergency services?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Those questions will rightly be the focus of the ongoing inquiries.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, a number of noble Lords have already warned about potential failures of other technology and a lack of resilience. I shall add one more, referring particularly to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about the switchover from analogue to digital. There is concern in some quarters about the impact that will have on monitoring devices, especially for people receiving social care or healthcare in their home. Could the Minister update us on the conversations going on within government to make sure that, when that switchover comes, either the devices that no longer work will be replaced or a way will be found to use those devices on the digital network?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the importance of those questions, particularly with respect to our ambition to provide technology that is available to all at all times. The questions will also quite rightly be an important part of the ongoing inquiries.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, yesterday the northern part of the UK experienced very heavy, intense thunderstorms. Communities rely on the emergency services; they also rely on access to the 999 telephone service to access those emergency services when there is flooding and other, associated incidents. Will that level of resistance be built into the inquiry to ensure that future systems operate in the best possible way to achieve the best possible outcomes for all communities throughout the UK?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the value of what the noble Baroness is bringing out. The scope of the inquiry must remain: what went wrong, what were the impacts and what do we therefore need to fix? Questions about the future improvement of the overall telecommunications network in the country are also, no doubt, critical, but I do not believe that they are part of the scope of this investigation.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, what protocols are in place to test the resilience of such systems before they go down?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the question, but we are entering an area of technicality that is, I am afraid, slightly beyond my knowledge. I am happy to write to the noble Baroness on that point.

[Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us whether BT, a private company, has been subject to a minimum service level requirement? If it has been deemed to fail that minimum service level requirement, what sanction will it face?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not want to prejudge the investigation—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

How can I? BT is required by Ofcom to answer 95% of calls in five seconds or less. As to how many of those have been missed at this point, subject to the ongoing inquiry, I do not know.

Artificial Intelligence

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking in co-operation with international partners to reach a global agreement on the regulation of advanced forms of artificial intelligence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

The Government are co-operating with international partners both bilaterally and multilaterally to address advanced AI’s regulatory challenges, including via our autumn global AI safety summit. The AI regulation White Paper recognises the importance of such co-operation, as we cannot tackle these issues alone. As per the G7 leaders’ communiqué, we are committed to advancing international discussions on inclusive AI governance and interoperability to achieve our common vision and goal of trustworthy AI aligned with shared democratic values.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer and commend the Prime Minister for his initiatives in this area. Clearly, advanced AI is epoch-making for the future of humanity and international co-operation is essential. Can the Minister say, first, whether there has been any response from China to the Prime Minister’s initiatives? Secondly, would he agree that one possible role model is the International Atomic Energy Agency as a way of monitoring future developments?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

We must recognise that China is ranked number two in AI capabilities globally, and we would not therefore envisage excluding China from any such discussions on how to deal best with the frontier risks of AI. That said, in the way we approach China and involve it in this, we need to take full cognisance of the associated risks. Therefore, we will engage effectively with our partners to assess the best way forward.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, in a recent speech the Minister rightly said that AI regulation clarity is critical. How on earth, in trying to achieve this, is he going to reconcile the AI White Paper’s tentative and voluntary sectoral approach to AI governance with the Prime Minister saying that unregulated AI poses an existential threat to humanity and with his desire to lead the world in AI safety and regulation? Does this mean that a screeching U-turn is in prospect?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. The starting point for the AI White Paper—of which I do not accept the characterisation of tentative—was, first, not to duplicate existing regulators’ work; secondly, not to go after specific technologies, because the technology space is changing so quickly; and, thirdly, to remain agile and adaptive. We are seeing the benefits of being agile and adapting to a very rapidly shifting landscape.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend the Minister and the Government on getting involved in international negotiations and discussions in this area. However, is this not an area where we have to be careful that we do not have a situation where there is nothing to fear but fear itself, and where we will lose out, if we are not careful, in having overregulation that prevents us using AI to the fullest extent for positive, excellent reasons on behalf of the people of this country?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right that the potential benefits of AI are extremely great, but so too are the risks. One of the functions of our recently announced Foundation Model Taskforce will be to scan the horizon on both sides of this—for the risks, which are considerable, and for the benefits, which are considerable too.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I differ from the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, who said that we must develop AI to the maximum extent. There are benefits, but does the Minister accept that we ignore the dangers of AI to the great peril of not only ourselves but the world? The problem is that, despite the advantages of artificial intelligence, within a very short period it will be more intelligent than human beings but it will lack one essential feature of humanity: empathy. Anybody or anything without empathy is, by definition, psychopathic. It will achieve its ends by any means. Therefore, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, is correct to say that, despite the difficulty of competition between states, such as the US and China, and within states, such as between Google, Microsoft and the rest, it is essential that we get an ethical regulatory framework before technology runs so far ahead of us that it becomes impossible to control this phenomenon.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The risks have indeed been well publicised and are broadly understood as to whether and when AI becomes more intelligent than humans. Opinions vary but the risk is there. Collectively and globally, we must take due account of the risks; if not, I am afraid that the scenario that the noble Lord paints will become reality. That is why bilateral and multilateral engagements globally are so important, so as to have a single interoperable regulatory and safety regime, and to have AI that the world can trust to produce some of the extraordinary benefits of which it would be capable.

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for raising this issue. I too believe that the best way for us to find the potential of AI is by paying great attention to regulation and ethics, building on what has just been said. What is best in us is beyond rationality—

“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends”


is not a rational decision. I have a simple question about the autumn summit, which I welcome. Because of the smorgasbord of ethical issues that AI raises, I am slightly concerned—although I may have got this wrong—that the summit will be gathering together business leaders. What about people from civil society? Will they be invited to the summit, and has this been given real consideration in helping us build an ethical framework for regulation?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The most reverend Primate is right to argue that we need a broad field of contributors to the difficult questions around AI ethics. As to the specific attendees and agenda of the AI global summit this autumn, those are to be determined, but we will have, if I may use the phrase, a broad church.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, it is easier to talk about ethical regulations, particularly internationally, than to address them. Innovations, particularly in advanced AI and generative AI, are occurring at a pace. Generative AI is already threatening some of our key industries. We need regulation that reduces that threat at the same time as allowing the economy to grow.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The White Paper set out the Government’s approach to regulation. The consultation on the White Paper closed on Wednesday; it has received a range of highly informed critiques, and praise from several surprising quarters. Once we have been through it and assessed the findings of that, we will take forward the approach to regulating AI, which, as the noble Lord quite rightly points out, is moving at a very fast pace.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, while we are told that the Online Safety Bill is both technology-neutral and future-proofed, concerns are being raised, with doubts that emerging AI-related threats are sufficiently covered. With the Bill finally approaching Report, do the Government intend to introduce any AI-focused protective measures? What if the Government realise after the Bill’s passage that more regulations are needed? How confident is the Minister that future legislation will not be subject to the same sorts of delays that we have experienced with the Online Safety Bill?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to point out that legislation must necessarily move more slowly than technology. As far as possible, the Online Safety Bill has been designed to be future-proof and not to specify or identify specific technologies and their effects. AI has been discussed as part of that, and those discussions continue.

Medical Research Charities

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Wednesday 21st June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

We are moving forward with discussions on the UK’s involvement in Horizon Europe; that is our preference. We will continue to engage with representatives across the sector, including medical research charities, as these discussions progress. We have engaged widely with the sector on association and Pioneer, including with medical research charities, and we continue to welcome thoughts on the proposals laid out in the Pioneer prospectus.

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply, and I am pleased that he recognises the vital contribution made by charity-funded medical research to the UK’s excellent R&D reputation. I am grateful for the briefings we have had from various charities, including the British Heart Foundation, which have all reinforced that. They point out the huge progress that has been made—for example, in cardiovascular research—in the past few years, which has been made possible because of the collaboration and recruitment of scientists, technicians and researchers, both within Europe and around the world. However, it is clear that there is still uncertainty about the degree to which the Government are communicating with or are at least involving those charities in the work they are doing and the negotiations. Surely the Minister accepts that it would be sensible—indeed, essential—for them to have a seat at the table in the negotiations and in looking at the opportunities available from both programmes.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

DSIT meets medical research charities on a quarterly basis through the DSIT charities forum. That brings together government representatives with a broad range of member charities from the Association of Medical Research Charities—AMRC—including the British Heart Foundation and Cancer Research UK, as well as smaller charities for topic-specific discussions, which includes the Horizon or Pioneer programmes. In addition, DSIT meets policy officials from AMRC on a monthly basis.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, if the UK is readmitted but participation in the programme falls to drastically low levels, provisions would allow the UK to withdraw. Can the Minister say what that level would be? Does he feel that there is any danger that this might happen due to the science sector’s lack of confidence in the Government’s long-term commitment to Horizon?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I cannot, of course, comment on ongoing negotiations for fear of affecting their outcome against us. I recognise the concern about the amount of time being taken, but the Government are, as the noble Baroness says, pursuing a policy of becoming a science and technology superpower by 2030. In the Government’s view, an excellent way to further that objective is to reassociate with the Horizon programme but on terms that are fair and appropriate for our sector stakeholders. Failing that, we will opt for our bold and ambitious alternative, Pioneer.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, it has now been 128 weeks of uncertainty, delay and broken promises since the Government took us out of the world’s biggest and most prestigious science fund, Horizon Europe. Will the Minister confirm or deny that part of the continued delay to the UK’s re-entry into the programme has been caused by a demand for a fee reduction? Does he agree that our continued exclusion from the scheme is damaging research and development collaborations across the EU that have benefited the UK in the past?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. The first thing to remind the House is that it was not a decision of the UK Government not to be associated with the Horizon programme. Following the trade and co-operation agreement—of which association to Horizon was a part—that association was withdrawn from the United Kingdom. Beyond that, as I say, I cannot comment on the forces at work behind individual negotiation points, but I recognise the frustration and concern that result from the lengthy period of negotiations.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, on 19 June, UKRI and DSIT launched a search for ideas that were “bold and ambitious”—a phrase the Minister used just now—and

“transformative ideas for moonshots across the research and innovation landscape”.

That would apparently be delivered by the Pioneer programme in the event that we do not sign up to Horizon. Can the Minister confirm how much will be invested in those moonshot programmes? Can he also confirm that in the event that we sign up to Horizon, those projects will still be funded?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The funding for the Pioneer programme would end up being the same as the funding that would be made available were we to join the Horizon programme, as is our preference. As to individual elements within the Pioneer programme, I cannot comment on their size right now because the programme continues to be based on huge input, which we greatly welcome, from all aspects of the sector.

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

My Lords, I draw the House’s attention to my registered interests. Is the Minister able to explain how the funding that had originally been allocated to the Horizon programme and has not been spent on that programme to date has been applied, and can he confirm that the residual funds that have not been applied will be applied to drive the science agenda in our country?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

As is normal practice in order to keep budgets taut and realistic, funding that was not spent on the Horizon programme due to our non-association was returned to the Treasury. However, should we—as is the Government’s preference—be able to associate with Horizon, those funds would contribute to Horizon.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, the trade and co-operation agreement has 24 committees, one of which is on the association with Union programmes. Perhaps the Minister could tell us whether that committee is actively involved in discussing Horizon. Secondly, the Horizon programme and our non-association with it is a matter of mutual harm to both sides, because there is a lack of things. A sense of urgency is important here, and I regret that I do not feel that a sense of urgency is coming from His Majesty’s Government. I remind everyone that the Windsor Framework surfaced on 27 February, which is jolly nearly four months ago. This is simply a discussion about money and about the premium being paid to join the Horizon programme. It seems to me that a one-issue discussion should take less than four months.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

As I say, I recognise the concern and frustration about the length of time. However, I do not recognise the characterisation that it is due purely to one participant in the negotiations foot-dragging. It is inevitably a complex negotiation with a number of moving parts, on which, I am afraid, I am unable to comment for fear of prejudicing the outcome of the negotiations.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister talks about, for example, Cancer Research UK, which is the biggest independent funder of research—I think that two years ago it was investing just under £450 million. It is on record as saying that joining Horizon Europe offers

“unparalleled opportunities for the UK to foster international collaborations”.

Will the Minister take that back to the department in the hope of incentivising the discussions, which we know are taking place and to which he just referred? The Government have to make a decision, and it is not in the best interests of science in the UK for them not to do so.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Yes, indeed, I will be very happy to take that back. As I say, for the Government, the preferred outcome of the negotiations is to associate with Horizon on fair and appropriate terms.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

In response to the question from my noble friend, the Minister was reasonably confident that we would move forward, but subject to “fair and appropriate terms”. Would he care to define to the House a little more clearly what those are?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

At the risk of testing the House’s patience, I cannot describe what our negotiating goals are for fear of prejudicing the outcome of the negotiations.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

In the light of comments from across the House, what progress does the Minister think we are making towards us becoming a global science superpower, and when does he think we might actually become such a thing? [Laughter.]

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I regret hearing the laughter at the question. We are a country with 1% of the world’s population, over 6% of the world’s published academic studies, and over 13% of the most highly cited academic studies in the world. I think I am right in saying that that makes us third globally, second in the OECD and first in Europe.

OFCOM (Duty regarding Prevention of Serious Self-harm and Suicide) Bill [HL]

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 16th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for tabling this Private Member’s Bill. Her knowledge and experience of these issues is highly regarded, rightly, on all sides of the House. I also thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this important debate so far. Like the noble Baroness, I call out the Samaritans for their ongoing brilliant work in this area.

As my noble friend Lord Parkinson set out at Second Reading and in Online Safety Bill Committee debates, the Government recognise the devastating impact of suicide and self-harm content, which has affected countless lives and families. We remain committed to addressing this material and giving vulnerable users the protection they deserve. While my department is leading this work, it is part of a cross-government approach which will go a long way to protecting people from suicide and self-harm content online.

I do not wish to repeat recent discussions, but I can assure the noble Baroness that the Online Safety Bill has been carefully designed to ensure that users are better protected from this content, with the strongest protections reserved for children. On top of this, we have tabled an amendment to the Bill to introduce a new self-harm offence, as has been mentioned, which noble Lords will have an opportunity to debate next week in Committee. Further, the powers granted to Ofcom via the legislation will protect users and negate the need for the noble Baroness’s Private Member’s Bill. Ofcom has the expertise to regulate and enforce the Bill’s provisions and implement its own research findings.

I thank the noble Baroness again for bringing her Bill to the House and facilitating this important debate, but I hope noble Lords are reassured of the Government’s extensive work in these areas and I hope that the noble Baroness will appreciate that, for the reasons set out, the Government cannot support this Private Member’s Bill.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the very generous words of the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, and for her understanding of the background to this. I am also grateful to the Government for the discussions we have had and recognise what has been said. We have more to debate. However, I emphasise that prevention of suicide and self-harm is essential and involves many different government departments and people across the whole of society. At the moment, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.