Draft South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (Election of Mayor and Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Wednesday 6th March 2024 General Committees

[Chris Philp]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention but, as he will know, when a Government Department or other public body conducts a consultation, that is not done as a sort of referendum in which the responses are added up and the view with the biggest percentage of responses prevails.

First, it is worth saying that 3,000 responses is a small proportion of the population of South Yorkshire; it is a tiny fraction of 1%. But as I say, when a consultation is conducted—not just in this context, but in any across Government—it is not a case of adding up the results and whoever gets the most responses winning, as it were. The responses are considered substantively on their merits. The point is the quality of the argument, not simply the number. I am not saying that the number is disregarded, but it is not determinative. It is not a referendum, obviously.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

I have just looked at the consultation principles laid out in 2018, which say:

“Do not consult for the sake of it.”

If we do not take account of a majority of 65%, we are just consulting for the sake of it.

The Minister has just replied by saying that a consultation is about what the responses are and not just a numbers game, but many people expressed concerns about the breadth of the Mayor’s existing portfolio and whether one individual could devote the necessary time to it. A proportion of people felt that the transfer could divert resources away from policing and towards non-policing activities within the combined authority, and a significant number of respondents referred to the closure of Doncaster Sheffield airport. Additionally, some respondents expressed concerns that the Mayor devotes considerable time and interest to matters that primarily impact Sheffield.

[The Chair]

Order. The hon. Member is asking the Minister a question rather than making a statement, so can he bring his comments to a close, please?

[Nick Fletcher]

Thank you, Mr Dowd. The Mayor in Sheffield has a huge number of responsibilities at the moment, and, as far as many people who responded are concerned, he is not fulfilling those duties to the benefit of Sheffield. Adding even more responsibilities at this moment will be the wrong thing to do.

[Chris Philp]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I know that he is a steadfast champion for his constituents, always speaks his mind and says what he thinks is right for his neighbourhood, exactly as he should. I have every respect for him for doing so in such clear and forthright terms.

I will try to address the two points that my hon. Friend raised. First, the consultation was not done just for the sake of it; it was done, as all consultations are, to genuinely test the arguments. However, it is not the case that any Government Department—the Home Office or any other—is simply bound to take the majority response by number. It is about the quality of the arguments. That applies across all Departments. It is not a referendum.

On the number of responses, which was 3,000, I had the opportunity to look up the population of South Yorkshire while my hon. Friend was speaking. According to Wikipedia, to the extent that that can be considered reliable—I am sure my colleagues will correct me if this is wrong—the population is 1.4 million. Does that sound about right?

[Nick Fletcher]

Sounds about right.

[Chris Philp]

Three-thousand responses out of 1.4 million is 0.2%. I do not think it is possible to say that that is a representative sample; but even if it was, a consultation is not a referendum and we look at the substance of the arguments.

My hon. Friend’s second point was that the Mayor has a lot of responsibilities. Obviously, my colleagues are sceptical about whether the Mayor is doing a particularly good job in other areas; transport has been mentioned. As with any elected office—a Member of Parliament, a local council leader, a PCC on a stand-alone basis or a Mayor—it all comes down to the individual. Some Mayors are effective and others are not. I am sure we all agree that Andy Street and Ben Houchen do a fantastic—[Interruption.] Is the shadow Minister rolling his eyes? They do a fantastic job as directly elected Mayors. I am an MP in London where, unfortunately, Sadiq Khan does not, but that is about the individual, not the structure of the office. Our view is that structurally combining the powers—it is not about the individual—allows them to be exercised more effectively because the Mayor exercising them has access to multiple levers. Should the right person be elected, they will be more effective.

My hon. Friends the Members for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) and for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) have serious concerns about the incumbent Mayor, but the source of redress is the ballot box. That is why I was out in the rain in Croydon on Saturday delivering leaflets and exposing Sadiq Khan’s appalling record.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Fletcher]

I want to reiterate exactly what my hon. Friends the Members for Penistone and Stocksbridge and for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) have said. I note for the record that all MPs are welcome to join these meetings, yet there are only three here from South Yorkshire. That says something about the other Members of Parliament from South Yorkshire, who have taken the vote for granted for so long. That is why we live in what many people call the socialist state of South Yorkshire. That is why it is so dangerous to hand these powers over; we are pretty much handing them over to a dictatorship. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr said that we should not make this political, but these are political positions, and this is what it is for. People need to know and to look back at what has happened since we became a combined authority. One of the biggest problems that we have had is that money has been wasted hand over fist, and we have lost our airport. That has caused huge economic damage to South Yorkshire for the last two years, and it will continue to do so until that airport is open.

This is important because we are going to be handing over further, really important powers on police and crime commissioning. We all know the place that we are in at the moment, and the police need real backing behind this. Unfortunately, with the leadership that the current Mayor is showing at this moment in time, we have not got that. It is extremely dangerous to hand these powers over without really thinking about that. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley, I urge all Members to vote against this. This is not the right time for this to happen.

[Alexander Stafford]

Does my hon. Friend and the Committee realise that the current Mayor has responsibility for business growth and recovery; education, skills and employment; transport and active travel; housing, infrastructure and net zero; and health, as the chair of the integrated care partnership? Does my hon. Friend believe that giving even more powers to that very extensive brief will serve the people of South Yorkshire? I do not believe that it will.

[Nick Fletcher]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Doncaster, Barnsley and Rotherham will all be left behind. We have seen the way in which moneys have been given to the Mayor—it is literally hundreds of millions of pounds, running into billions of pounds. That is not being divided up equally between the four councils. Unfortunately, because all the council leaders are Labour, no one is actually challenging it. We continually see videos of what is actually happening at those council meetings, and the Doncaster Mayor never sits up and actually challenges any decision that is made. The scrutiny panels are extremely small and they are again filled with people from his own party. Unfortunately, if we continue on this trajectory, South Yorkshire is going to be left behind. Other combined authorities, where we have Conservative members and Mayors, continue to move forward.

[Mrs Elphicke]

I have to say, my Yorkshire colleagues are making a very compelling case for their concerns. Would my hon. Friend expand on how the structure should be changed to sort out the functions going forward?

[Nick Fletcher]

At this moment in time, considering the place that South Yorkshire is in, if we are going to have PCCs and Mayors, which is not serving South Yorkshire well, both of those positions should continue to be elected separately, rather than giving all the power to a Mayor who can then appoint somebody who, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley has said, will not be elected. The measure gives too much power to an individual whose record so far has been appalling for South Yorkshire. As I have said, I urge all Members to vote against this, because it is not the right thing to do. Once again, we have three Members of Parliament here who have given up the time of day to attend, as opposed to those Opposition Members who have failed to turn up, and we need to ensure that our voice is heard.

[Keir Mather]

We have heard a lot from Government Members about democratic accountability, even the risk of dictatorship, and how nobody wants this and the will of the people needs to be respected. This provision was in the manifesto for the current South Yorkshire Mayor who, I remind Government Members, received 71% of the vote in his mayoral election. Does that not equal democratic accountability?

[Nick Fletcher]

This is why we are living in a dictatorship. I need to take this moment to encourage all the people in South Yorkshire, if this goes forward today—[Interruption.]

[The Chair]

Order. I completely understand how passionately Members feel, but can we get the febrile tone down a little bit?

[Nick Fletcher]

Thank you, Mr Dowd. I feel extremely passionately, because the people of Doncaster, Rotherham, Barnsley and Sheffield have suffered long enough. The people need to know that they can actually bring about change. If this goes forward, the Conservative candidate who has just been put up today, Nick Allen, is definitely where that vote needs to go.

[Sir Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend think that his constituents in South Yorkshire might want to have a close look at what is happening in Tees Valley, an area that was once totally dominated by Labour, but where Ben Houchen is now delivering for the people there? He got a similar level of support in his election, and has saved the airport at Tees Valley.

[Nick Fletcher]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. That is the same message that I have been giving out for the last 19 months. The Conservative Mayor in Teesside, Ben Houchen, used the gainshare powers, which the Mayor of Sheffield unfortunately said he could not use—but now, all of a sudden, he can use them. Ben Houchen bought the airport with half the gainshare money available to our Mayor, and is making a real success of it.

[Alexander Stafford]

My hon. Friend once again mentions the key point, which is that the Mayor of South Yorkshire keeps saying he cannot do something, and then suddenly it turns out that he can. My hon. Friend mentioned Doncaster Sheffield Airport—suddenly our Mayor can save it, when he had claimed he could not. The same thing happened for my bus routes in Rother Valley. The Mayor said he could not change the bus routes or make things work, and suddenly he has changed them a little bit. The Mayor clearly does not understand what powers he already has. If we give him even more powers, what faith can we have that he will exercise them responsibly for the people of South Yorkshire?

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Fletcher]

I could not agree more. I just want to reference something that was said about working together to move forward. I have to mention one more time that not one single Labour South Yorkshire Member of Parliament has turned up to this debate. With the way the combined authorities are being put out at this time, there is a huge amount of power, money and responsibility there, and I would have thought that Labour Members would have at least been able to turn up to this Committee.

I think we have all said enough, and I know that colleagues obviously have busy days as well. However, I encourage everybody to vote against this order, because it is the wrong thing for South Yorkshire.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Philp]

That brings me to the matter of accountability and blaming the Government, which I was going to mention. When a Mayor exercises police and crime commissioner powers, as Sadiq Khan does in London, they set the element of the precept that funds the police in the same way as a police and crime commissioner. That is a decision for the Mayor when they exercise PCC powers, in the same way that Sadiq Khan—I use that example because I am a London MP—sets the police precept in London. In Kent, of course, it will be Matthew Scott, my hon. Friend’s police and crime commissioner. If this change is agreed, the Mayor of South Yorkshire would set the police precept in South Yorkshire, the money raised from which would be strictly and legally ringfenced to be spent on policing purposes.

Mayors are entitled to appoint a deputy Mayor for policing—Sadiq Khan does that in London—but the Mayor is still ultimately responsible. For example, the Mayor personally sets the precept and exercises the power to hire and fire the chief constable. The Mayor personally exercises a number of powers, and they can appoint a deputy Mayor for policing, as Sadiq Khan has in London—he has appointed Sophie Linden. However, the Mayor ultimately takes the key decisions. The Mayor is accountable at the ballot box, and ultimately the people—the public—can kick out the Mayor if they think they are doing a bad job.

Some slightly contradictory arguments have been advanced about election turnouts. On the one hand, it has been said that the 19% turnout for the PCC election and the 24% turnout for the mayoral election were low. On the other hand, the Committee is being invited to give significant weight to 0.2% in the consultation. Obviously it is internally contradictory to say that 0.2% is significant but 24% is not significant.

[Nick Fletcher]

Can the Minister tell me how widely advertised the consultation was? Unfortunately, I genuinely do not believe that it was. As a Member of Parliament, I put a lot of effort into letting people know. Everybody knows that there will be an election in May, because the country and the Government will be putting it out there, so it is slightly unfair to compare those two.

[Chris Philp]

My hon. Friend has made his point.

In a sense, the fact that the turnout in the PCC election was lower than the turnout in the mayoral election by five percentage points suggests that combining the two would give the person who exercises those powers the highest possible profile and real authority over these issues, such as transport, housing and policing in London. Indeed, that is why it is done across the country, in London and Manchester, and why we are in the process of seeking to do it in the West Midlands. No one would dispute that, for example, the Mayor of London, the Mayor of the West Midlands or the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, have a significant profile, because they exercise significant powers.

If we are concerned, as my hon. Friends are—and as I am, to some extent—that the turnout in PCC elections is not as high as we would like, then giving the person who holds those powers, in this case the Mayor, as many powers as possible would give them a higher public profile and motivate more people to turn out and vote. The turnout in the mayoral election in London is likely to be getting on for 50%, or maybe 40%—who knows exactly, but it will be quite high—because the Mayor of London exercises such significant powers, and I think that improves democratic accountability.

My last point is that Members have been very decent in not being too personal to the current incumbent of the South Yorkshire mayoralty, and I will not be either. I know that there are some concerns about the way in which that individual has done their job, and I understand that people have strong feelings about that, but we need to legislate for the right structure—a structure that makes sense—and not vote one way or the other because there is an individual who might not be doing a very good job. Where Mayors do a good job, such as Ben Houchen or Andy Street—there might also be some Labour ones, although I cannot immediately think of one; the hon. Member for Nottingham North is free to intervene and suggest one—we know that they can be really effective.

As parliamentarians, we have to legislate for the right structures—ones that are right in perpetuity, regardless of the individual—and trust the electorate to make the right choice. It is our view, and my view, that this is the right structure. Consolidating the role, so that the Mayor can exercise a wide range of powers and co-ordinate with partners, is the right structure. That is why we have done it in London and Greater Manchester, and why we are in the process of doing it in the West Midlands, which covers Birmingham as well. Obviously the four local authorities, the current PCC and the current Mayor agree with this. Taking a sober step back, I just think that this structure is one that works, regardless of some of the problems that might exist with the current personality.

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 12th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

I have said it before and I will say it again: Doncaster is full. [Interruption.] I often get challenged, as I just was from the Opposition Benches, when I say as a Christian that Doncaster is full, but I do not think it is very Christian to put people in boats who will, sadly, sometimes fall. I do not think it is Christian to promise people a life in this country when we do not have the services for them. I do not think it is Christian to take the best people from developing countries because we do not train our own in this country. I do not think it is Christian when my constituents have to put up with immigration at the level it is at.

We have heard the lawyers in this House speak so eloquently, as they often do. We hear the left-wing lawyers do the same, but at least the lawyers in this place are probably trying to help—at least those on the Government side of the House. Unfortunately, outside, we have left-wing lawyers making six-figure salaries calling me and people like me awful. We have TV pundits on seven-figure salaries, paid by my constituents through TV licences, again calling me awful. Well, I ask the people on those huge salaries to sell everything they have and give it all away, and come and get a job in Doncaster, probably on £25,000 or £30,000 a year. I ask them to find themselves a partner and then go and buy their dream house.

Those people buy that dream house—a three-bedroom semi or mid-terrace—and they make the garden nice so their kids can play in the garden. There is a couple next door who have kids themselves, and everything is rosy. Then all of a sudden the neighbour decides to move on—he gets a different job or moves somewhere else—and that house is turned into a house in multiple occupation. Then we have nine people who do not speak English bedhopping—[Interruption.] That is what is happening. It is no good saying it is not happening; it is happening. [Interruption.] If anyone wants to come and have a look, then please come and have a look, because I am sorry, but you are burying your head in the sand trying to make yourselves look good in front of people to get votes. This is happening. It is happening in Doncaster and in places throughout the country. We are turning parts of our community into a ghetto. This is what is happening.

All of a sudden, you are living next door to an HMO and there are comings and goings at 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning, with people outside smoking. The grass does not get cut any more, the windows do not get cleaned any more and, unfortunately, you feel too scared to let your child play out in the garden any more. There are no gated communities here to make people feel safe, because, remember, you are not on a seven-figure salary now; you are earning £30,000 a year. The only protection is a lock on the door. The council might introduce a public spaces protection order, but would probably not enforce it. This is what is happening.

You cannot sell your house, or if you can, you have to sell it at a discount. Your little child falls over in the street and you have to go to A&E, and there is a 12-hour waiting list. The reason the waiting lists are so long is that people do not speak English in these places any more. [Interruption.] This is what is happening! In the schools, the classes are all oversized—[Interruption.] This is what is happening. Members can shout me down. They can say what they want—I really do not care—but this is what is happening.

We have to tackle immigration, including illegal immigration, because it is not fair. The couple I am talking about are paying their taxes week in, week out. They expect to live in a nice street, and to benefit from the services that they pay for week in, week out. They do not expect to be called racist or xenophobic for saying, “We liked it as it was.” If we are going to have immigration, which I do not completely believe is a bad thing, it needs to be controlled, and that is what I was sent down here to do.

I am only here because of Brexit. The people of Doncaster have had enough. They wanted control of their borders, and I say to Ministers that unless we get control of our borders, I will not be coming back down here again. [Hon. Members: “Hurray!”] Members may cheer, but the people of Doncaster are not cheering. This is the first time they have had a Conservative MP to hold to account one of the socialist Labour councils that have been left to get away with murder for the last 60 years. It is absolutely atrocious.

I will back the Bill today, but I have friends on this side of the House who want it to be stronger, and I am going to work with them, and hopefully with Ministers, because we must make this work. We have to stop the boats: that is what the Prime Minister has said, and I will back him until we do. We must stop the boats.

Illegal Immigration

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Wednesday 15th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[James Cleverly]

I am not going to set out all the plans for how we will put this in place. We have already started the process for turning the MOU into a treaty. We are focused on addressing the specific issues raised by their lordships.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

In addition to voting against the Government 70 times on stopping the boats, the Opposition speak about natural dispersal when dealing with economic migrants. This means they often end up in Doncaster, where property is cheaper, rather than in the leafy suburbs of the liberal elites, but Doncaster is full. So will the Home Secretary do everything he can to put through the Rwanda treaty as soon as possible?

[James Cleverly]

I welcome the point raised by my hon. Friend. It is often the least well-off communities who feel the burden most heavily, and it is our duty to them to address these issues. I give him that commitment—on my recent trip to just outside his constituency, I got his name wrong, for which I apologise—and I will do exactly that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Monday 18th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

We do acknowledge that, and it may well be that posthumous awards are made. We obviously do not comment on individual cases and potential awards prior to their being made, but if I say that I strongly sympathise with what the hon. Lady just said, I think she will understand what I mean.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

7. What steps she is taking to reduce crime.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

23. What steps she is taking to reduce crime.

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Suella Braverman)]

Our communities are safer than in 2010, with overall crime on a like-for-like basis down by 54%. We have put 20,000 more police officers on our streets—a record number—which is enabling us to take action across the board to bring more offenders to justice, to better protect victims and to equip our police with the powers they need to prevent crimes.

[Nick Fletcher]

The fall in crime is welcome, but does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the police would deter and solve even more crimes, such as burglaries, the use of quad bikes and general antisocial behaviour in places such as Hatfield, Doncaster, Rossington and Thorne in my constituency, if they started putting more bobbies on the beat and stopped promoting unscientific ideologies?

[Suella Braverman]

My hon. Friend is quite right. We pay the police to fight crime. Whether that is to focus on the antisocial behaviour, the nuisance bikers or the burglaries he mentioned, they are there to keep people safe. We do not pay them to wave flags at parades, to dance with drag queens or to campaign. That is why I finally ended all association with Stonewall at the Home Office and why I expect all police and crime commissioners and chief constables to focus on cutting crime and rebuilding confidence, not playing politics.

Illegal Migration Update

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Robert Jenrick]

I would be very happy to take a look at that, and I completely understand and appreciate the unique pressures that Kent faces.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

In my last communication with Doncaster Council, there were 6,710 people on the housing waiting list and we have hotels that are full, too. So will my right hon. Friend continue his great work, and make sure that we stop these illegal boats and reduce immigration to a sizeable level?

[Robert Jenrick]

I strongly support the view of my hon. Friend. He is right to say that illegal migration places immense pressures on public services, housing supply and community cohesion. That is what we on this side of the House understand and that is why we are taking the action that we are to stop the boats.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Suella Braverman]

The recent reports on the Stephen Lawrence case are an operational matter for the police, which I cannot get involved in, nor should I. That is a judgment for the police on operational and casework decisions, within which we do not interfere. We have a good track record on the Met turning around performance. Mark Rowley’s turnaround plan and leadership efforts to restore confidence and rebuild trust with London are working. We need to back him to get the best results possible in London.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

There is a tweet going around regarding a man who identifies as a trans woman. The tweet reads that the trans-identified man who

“appeared in an @itvnews report about ‘mothers’ has posted an image ‘breastfeeding’ a baby. Do you think it’s ok to mock women like this?”

I think that is a valid question, but I am also extremely concerned for the welfare of the child. Will the Home Secretary’s Department look into that for me, please?

Stop and Search

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Monday 19th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Suella Braverman]

We know that the use of body-worn video has increased dramatically throughout police forces, and it is now a significant element in the transparency and accountability. Several layers of scrutiny and challenge are injected into the system these days, whether that is internal supervision, internal feedback, the stop-and-search scrutiny panels, or various other inspections. Body-worn video footage can inform the training and accountability, and that is one reason why there are greater levels of public confidence in stop and search and a lower number of complaints.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for her statement. Suspicionless stop and search must be used responsibly, but does she agree that any Members who think that that tactic is wrong should speak with officers who have had to deliver the news to a mum or a dad that their son has been stabbed?

[Suella Braverman]

My hon. Friend puts it very well. The police—our frontline partners who are dealing with this issue day in, day out; who have to break that tragic news to parents, every parent’s worst nightmare—report back that stop and search, when used lawfully, proportionately and reasonably, is a vital tool in the fight against crime and is fundamentally very effective in saving lives.

Illegal Migration Bill

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Tuesday 7th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Suella Braverman]

Regarding Operation Pitting, we have received 20,000 people from Afghanistan—fleeing the Taliban, fleeing conflict and fleeing persecution. I am very proud of Britain’s track record. That is one among many safe routes through which people have come to the UK.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

The people of Doncaster and Don Valley have welcomed people from all around the world, including recently through the Ukraine scheme, but they also now realise that we are full. Will the Home Secretary confirm to the House and to the people of Doncaster whether an illegal immigrant who arrives on our shores would ever be granted leave to remain?

[Suella Braverman]

My hon. Friend is right. We are at unsustainable levels of people coming here illegally. It is putting unsustainable pressure on our accommodation, our public services and our resources. That cannot continue. That is why we need to adopt a different approach when it comes to dealing with asylum cases.

Public Order Bill

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Consideration of Lords amendments
Tuesday 7th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Wendy Chamberlain]

I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification, but the point I made while he was not in his place still stands: this is confusing. We are presenting confusing legislation to police officers to apply and potentially to take away people’s liberty accordingly.

Policing needs to be done with consent. This is knee-jerk legislation, as I have said throughout, to replace powers that already exist and that the police say they can utilise now. It also prevents the important discussions that take place between protest groups and police officers; we are going to create a chilling effect not only on the right to protest, but on the relationships that help us to enable legitimate protest. I think that is why the Lords rejected these clauses outright in their previous guise in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. The Lords have attempted to ameliorate the worst excesses of this Bill, and I will certainly vote in support of keeping the Lords amendments in place.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

I rise to speak to Lords amendment 5 and the amendments to it put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer).

Buffer zones are basically public spaces protection orders, extending a distance of 150 m. PSPOs, as they are called, are generally used for antisocial behaviour. We have three in Doncaster, apparently, and I have personally applied for one in Conisbrough in my constituency. We have a set of seating in the middle of town where we have people under the influence of drugs and alcohol, and beggars, and they make a nuisance of themselves with antisocial behaviour. They are killing the town centre. I have been refused a PSPO there, but I will continue, because I think it is the right thing to do.

Lords amendment 5 will put a mandatory buffer zone, a PSPO, around every single clinic in the country. Regardless of what we think about that, I want to tell people in this House and in my constituency what that will look like. The drunks and the people under the influence of drugs in Conisbrough are going to continue to be able to make a nuisance of themselves, damage the local economy and scare old and young people who want to go to the shops; yet a lady or a gentleman who has a real strong faith and believes they can help the people coming in to a clinic is not going to be able to do that.

The hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) talked about people praying and standing in front of people, and my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) asked why they have to do it there. Well, if that is the worst day of a woman’s life, and I accept that it probably is one of the worst days of a woman’s life, if she saw somebody there who was praying respectfully, who was there to help, and she knew they were there, she could ignore that lady or gentleman who was praying and just walk in—but, if it was the worst day of her life, she might want somebody just to turn to for that second. Also, if somebody is being coerced into going into one of those places to have a forced abortion, that lady or gentleman could be somebody who is there to help.

I agree with everybody else in this House that shouting, screaming and holding up placards is an awful thing to do and should not happen, but silent prayer and consensual conversations should not be banned. The papers will get hold of this in a year’s time: we are the party of law and order, but we will be arresting people for prayer and for conversations, while letting the people who are harassing the public in our towns and our shops continue to do so.

I ask all Conservative Members in this House to think about amendment (a) to Lords amendment 5, which my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South has put forward. It simply asks for people to be allowed to pray and to have those consensual conversations. Amendment (b) provides that, before we put this law in place, we carry out a review on it. That is what I am asking for.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have immense respect for many people who have spoken in the debate. I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) is no longer in his place. He and I might be in different political parties, but on issues of civil liberties, we often find common cause. I am not sure that my 15-year-old self would have thought that possible, but it is certainly true—for example, we are working, as Back-Bench Members of Parliament, to raise concerns about the restrictions on parliamentary sovereignty in the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill.

I have been very struck by the debate, which I believe crosses party political lines. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin), who I knew as the hon. Member for Colchester back when I was that 15-year-old who could not conceive of points on which I might find common ground with Government Members. But there are such points, and this—speaking up for freedoms—is one.

I am very struck that the concept of freedom that has been articulated in the Chamber so far is a myopic one. That myopic freedom comes from a blind spot that I believe most of the Members in this Chamber must recognise when talking about access to abortion, which is exactly what we are talking about. By definition of who they are, they will never have been in the position of the women for whom those buffer zones make a difference, so their experience of the human rights at stake in the legislation, and of the issues that we face, is inevitably tempered by their own understanding, in which they focus on the idea that this is purely an issue of freedom of speech and fail to recognise that other, much-cherished right in this country: the right to privacy. My remarks will be very much about that and about how we cannot be a free society if women, just as much as men, are not able to exercise those rights equally.

I am very taken by the fact that it is International Women’s Day tomorrow. I have to say that I have become increasingly cynical about that day. It deflates me. We spend a year talking about how we are going to celebrate women, but precious little time working on advancing their rights. Well, I see Lords amendment 5 and opposition to amendment (a) as being about advancing women’s rights and doing what the suffragettes told us to do: “Deeds, not words”. Why do I see that? I see that because I think we must start by clarifying some of the myths that have been presented to the Chamber.

I listened respectfully to the hon. Member for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer) because this is the time and place for him to exercise that most important democratic right of freedom of speech. I have listened to many speakers talk about how we are somehow criminalising prayer. Let us be very clear for the avoidance of doubt: no prayer is being criminalised. Nothing in the Bill will do that, except, perhaps, for a gardener who is carrying a spade because they are praying that their carrots or green-sprouting broccoli will grow but who is stopped by the police—as clause 2 will allow—who argue that the gardener’s intent in carrying the spade is to dig a tunnel. The gardener’s prayer for the vegetables is secondary when they explain to the police why they were carrying a spade.

Let us be very clear: nothing in Lords amendment 5 criminalises prayer. It says what most people would recognise: that there is a time and a place for everything and a balance in those rights—in the freedom of speech to tell a woman that you do not think she has a right to make a choice over her own body, and her right to privacy. When she has made her choice, she should not be impeded.

Let us be honest about this: the people praying outside abortion clinics are not finding the right time and place for it. That is not just what I think; it is what the vast majority of the British public think because they recognise that when a woman has made that choice, she should not face someone trying to change her mind right up to the wire. She should be respected for her choice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Jones]

The hon. Member is completely right. The amendment also risks driving a coach and horses through all the protests legislation. If I am standing outside Parliament protesting and being annoying and loud, the police may want to intervene, but I might say, “Actually, I’m silently praying. Are you going to tell me I’m not?” How far does the amendment ride roughshod over all our definitions of protest? That is a question that the hon. Members who support it have not considered.

[Nick Fletcher]

What the hon. Lady just said is completely and utterly wrong—the chuntering on the Government Benches proves that. We are banning people from praying—silently—in a Christian country. Can we let that sink in? This is ridiculous. I want all colleagues on the Government Benches to think about this: within a 150-metre zone of a clinic, people will not be allowed to silently pray. Regardless of the reasons behind that, we need to think carefully about what we are doing.

[Sarah Jones]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that we have voted in this House and the other place for the safe access zones. As someone who prays, I understand why we need to introduce that legislation. However, the amendment mentions not just silent prayer but “consensual communication”. How on earth do we define consensual communication? There is no definition.

Migration and Economic Development

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Suella Braverman]

I really disagree with the moral high ground that the hon. Member seems to be taking, in the light of Scotland’s paltry record on taking asylum seekers. It has refused to take anybody who has come here on a small boat, and that is unacceptable.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

I welcome the statement today and the judgment, but will the Secretary of State confirm to the House that she will continue to use every tool in her power to stop these boats? As we can see, the Opposition and the human rights lawyers will try to stop the good work that the Secretary of State is doing, but the people of Doncaster are tired of been taken advantage of by these illegal immigrants. Will she confirm that she will continue to use every power that she has?

[Suella Braverman]

My hon. Friend speaks not only for the people of Doncaster but for the people of Britain in expressing the sentiment that the British people are tired and want this problem to be fixed. It is only this Government who are going to do it.