Business of the House

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Thursday 29th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

I agree with my hon. Friend’s comments —that is a duty on us all. He may wish to know that I have also asked for a meeting with the Government’s envoy for freedom of religion or belief, my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), and the Minister responsible to look at what more we parliamentarians can do to ensure that all communities and faith groups feel properly supported in these times. I will make sure that the relevant Department hears what my hon. Friend has said today.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I had no intention of coming to ask the Leader of the House a question, but earlier she mentioned the exclusion of Members of Parliament. Just to be clear about the language, what we are talking about is people who have been arrested for sexual crimes being excluded from this estate. She said that we cannot have that debate, and that Members need to trust the process—well, staff also need to trust what happens here. She said that we cannot have the debate because of what happened last week. I have absolutely no idea how what happened last week has anything to do with keeping this building safe; could the Leader of the House elaborate on why what happened last week has got anything to do with something we have been fighting for for five years?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. It is because this relies on the trust and confidence that Members have in other Members in this place, but also in the House authorities. The hon. Lady will know that I am part of the Commission. We have brought forward and tabled these proposals, but we also have a duty to listen to hon. and right hon. Members in this place, otherwise such motions will fail. I have to say that there is a very small set of circumstances—I cannot actually think of a set—where this would ever be used, because what would happen, if the House authorities were notified of any issues of concern, is that bail conditions would be applied to that individual, and therefore the process would not be triggered. We are talking about a set of circumstances where there would be some other kind of risk.

It is not an immediate emergency. It is important that we debate these things. It is particularly important to Mr Speaker, upon whom the responsibility for these issues currently falls. Clearly, a process is being proposed that would take that responsibility away from him. I am telling all hon. and right hon. Members that we need to debate these matters, taking seriously the concerns of our colleagues. Just coming to this place, and implying that Members on the Government Benches do not care about these issues is not helpful.

Privilege: Conduct of Right Hon. Boris Johnson

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Monday 19th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Lia Nici]

I do not agree. I am from Grimsby and I can only say it as I see it. I saw on the day that the report was published that Boris Johnson had not been aware of the parties that had been going on.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I am from Birmingham and I say it as I see it. Does the hon. Lady think that there is any chance that Boris Johnson could also have lied to her?

[Lia Nici]

No, I do not believe that he did. I think I am a very good person who can see character, and I saw what was going on in and around No. 10 on that day. Sadly, I believe that some unelected officials—many are very good and professional—made a choice not to inform the then Prime Minister because they wanted to cover their own backs. I am very sad to say that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I will very much focus on the report. To comment on the last two speakers, not necessarily the wildly tangential line that they went down, but the idea that everybody is a bit sick of this and they do not want to be talking about it, quite a lot of people have been in touch with me while the debate has been going on and they are watching the debate. One of the people who got in touch with me is a brilliant woman called Mina Smallman, whose daughters, Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman, were killed during the period when our country was in lockdown, in a double murder. She said to me:

“Please mention our story and Bibaa and Nicole. Had they broken the rules they would still be alive.”

They went to a picnic in a park, and they staggered it so that there would not be too many people, because they understood the regulations. Because of that, they were murdered. Mina Smallman also said that Sarah Everard was so frightened of the covid regulations that she ended up dead. So there were people in our country who listened to Boris Johnson talking on television, they took away from him what the rules were, as the primary message giver in the pandemic, they understood the rules, and it cost them their lives in a completely different way from that which has been discussed so far.

The idea that Boris Johnson did not understand the regulations—it is a cracking defence on his part because it basically means that he is too stupid. He’s either lying or he’s thick. Somebody said earlier they were not mutually exclusive. I think that is the case in this instance. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

I did not come to this place as a big cheerleader of it. I felt that I was going to think that parliamentary procedure was silly in a lot of regards, and all the Northstead bailiffing has not disavowed me of that in the last couple of weeks. What I found, however, was that I became a total cheerleader for parliamentary democracy. I had not expected to. It has really been quite a shock to me that I became such a cheerleader of parliamentary democracy, but it is because it matters. People in our country putting trust in us to do the right thing really matters. Since I have been here, I have seen the fragility of that, with lies, misdirection and constantly feeling like you are never getting an answer.

Our constituents say over and over again, “Oh my God, just answer the question.” That is the most pressing thing for most people in our country: “Oh my God, just get someone to answer the bloody question”—excuse my language, I am quoting the public. They said it worse; it could have been much worse. So it really matters that the institution of this place be protected, and that it is considered to be truthful and honest.

The only people who are served by the public hating politicians and the institution of Parliament are the people who already hold power. It is so important for the people to feel empowered in the thing that represents them and is there to drive them. If they opt out and say, “You’re all the same: you’re all liars and cheats”, the same people who have always ruled always will rule. They do not mind that people say that.

This is about the importance of telling the truth in this place, and respecting the systems that we all have to live by and that we all vote through; like this Committee, we all voted for that and passed it through this building. It matters so much. That is why I stand here to say that I have watched that degrade and, for the first time, with this Privileges Committee report, I have felt like it has a chance to come back. I have felt that there is a lock on the system and a valve to release the pressure. I have seen for the past five years people—specifically Boris Johnson—lying and deceiving. I have felt, “Oh gosh, it’s okay. The system is bigger than this demagogue. It is bigger than that man who thinks he is bigger and more important than the world.” The system fought back with honour and I thank the members of the Committee for their hard work.

Boris Johnson’s demagoguery in receipt of the report should surprise absolutely no one. It is to be laughed at, frankly, and the public are laughing at it. It looks really desperate. Some of the defences that I have heard today on behalf of Members trying to stick up for Boris Johnson look a little like people dancing on the head of a pin. Frankly, they were laughable and people are watching. I feel very bad that that will be represented as if it is the Conservative party’s view, when there are very decent Members who absolutely will do the right thing and stick up for democracy.

It is a crying shame that, in this moment of release valve, the Prime Minister of our country cannot even express how he would vote if he were to turn up today. In my view, that is a dereliction of duty. Democracy has been degraded. It is important to fight for it. I cannot believe that he could not take five seconds out of parroting his pledges to tell us what he thinks should happen. I praise the Leader of the House today for showing leadership in that regard. I cannot believe that the Prime Minister cannot even express what his view is one way or another.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

Interestingly enough, he did not express a view on Owen Paterson either.

[Jess Phillips]

There are many things that are matters of conscience in this place. When I look back on the record and see the Prime Minister of the day has not expressed a view on them, I think it is weak—it is quite a lot of unparliamentary words that I am probably not allowed to say, so I will not say them. I can now say that Boris Johnson is a liar and I believe my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler), who will be speaking after me, has been completely vindicated by the fact that we can all say that Boris Johnson is a liar. I just wish there had been a united front today. I understand that it is a matter of conscience, and there will always be some people who feel a different way, and I totally respect that. It is a real shame if the House cannot express today how important democracy is to us because of the failure of one leader leading to the weakness of the next.

Standards: Code of Conduct and Guide to the Rules

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

It will not, but we can move to that system. At the moment Departments can produce this information only on a quarterly basis, and by March that will still be the case.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

Imagine I am a layman: may I ask why? This does not seem beyond the wit of man; we all have to do it as Members of Parliament. There are considerably more staff in Whitehall than I have in my office. So I simply ask: really?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I am afraid so, and if the hon. Lady would like to know more I can bore her for hours on this. I have been through literally every single Department’s processes and returns, and some of the information takes a while to extract, such as that from the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. That is not an acceptable situation and it needs to change. I have set out how we will do that and by when I think we will have been able to do so, but I cannot stand at the Dispatch Box today and say that by March we will have a system where Labour Members of Parliament and Members of Parliament on the Government side of the House, if they are envoys or Ministers, will be able to report on a monthly basis. We can move to that system, and I think for the sake of a few months we should do this properly and get Whitehall in the place it needs to be in.

Replacement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I find it absolutely incredible that the Leader of the House is incredulous that people might want to hear from the Prime Minister, as if it is a political game to ask questions of the leader of our country. That is an embarrassing thing to assert. She so wants to hear from the Chancellor but, in the national interest, can I ask her to be completely honest, because nothing we have seen has been honest—[Interruption.] I apologise.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. It was not about an individual, and the comment has been withdrawn. Carry on.

[Jess Phillips]

Oh yes, it was not about an individual.

We had the statement at 11 o’clock, when I was on the train—I could actually get on a train—so why was it that the markets needed reassuring?

[Penny Mordaunt]

First, I fully appreciate the optics of my appearing at the Dispatch Box, but there is a very genuine reason why the Prime Minister is not here. I understand that people will wish to make political hay out of it. She would wish to be here, but she is unable to be here at the moment. The Chancellor will be along shortly to answer these questions.

Committee on Standards

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Tuesday 16th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I normally have to say that thing—there are all these things we have to say—“It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope)”. I am actually going to defend his position, and critique what he has said. My first critique is that I found the tone in which he spoke to one of his colleagues to be slightly unacceptable as a woman in these proceedings. However, as a woman in these proceedings, I have had call to find some of his tone problematic in the past, so nothing new there.

I love to turn up to these debates and have it out once again, but where I am going to defend the hon. Gentleman is that he is standing in this Chamber defending a position and being barracked for that position—I can understand why; I get it: people want this to go away and I can see why people in this House would want that—when it was the Government’s position 13 days ago. So it is slightly unusual, notwithstanding the fact that he would not take an intervention from the right hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) while saying that he liked debate. To be fair, it would never have been his position. It is all well and good barracking him and saying we should not be talking about it, but this was the Government’s position just weeks ago, and I think that is important to remember.

I want to go over a couple of things. The idea of natural justice seems to be incredibly in the eye of the beholder. As somebody who has worked in the justice sector for nearly two decades now, I find it something that is never ever said about victims. Victims are never asking for natural justice, one notes. Natural justice is terminology that always gets pulled out when people do not like the result of something that has happened, I find.

I feel that what happened in this case absolutely was natural justice. The right hon. Gentleman—sorry, Owen Paterson—was entitled all the way through to defend his case. The Leader of the House spoke earlier about his mind being clouded by the tragedy that had occurred. I have some sympathy for that, except that is not a mitigation ever offered to any of my constituents in immigration tribunals or welfare tribunals. Dreadful things that have happened to them would never be taken into account. It is difficult when the Government’s policy is to mitigate against only some people and to cloud their minds against only some people.

In this case, all the way through the Member was entitled to defend himself, and defend himself he did, considerably better than lots of Members in this House who do not have £100,000 contracts would have been able to do. Let’s not even get started on access to justice outside this House—welcome to almost every family court in the land, where people are defending themselves—but he was able to access legal representation all the way through. That is undeniable, and it was not just legal access. Let’s face it, Owen Paterson will have had considerably better access to law, silks and fancier lawyers than most people in this House, so let us not pretend that he was completely and utterly blindsided by this process and that it was not handled fairly, because it absolutely was.

I have some sympathy with the argument about appeals, and I am more than happy to take part in any debate about how that appeal system might work. My personal view is that the system used by the sexual harassment process that we set up, with judges sitting over it, is one that I would not mind seeing in place, although I have to say that people should be wary: the judges are very robust, they are very detailed and they cross-examine the evidence. In those cases, I have never once seen it come down on the side of the Member. In fact, there are former Members of the House who are no longer sitting here because of what the appeal said. Unfortunately, following the appeal in one of the cases, the Member still sits in here, regardless of the loss of members of staff from this place—that is the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts).

I want to say a tiny thing for the public about transparency and how these things work. I feel a little bit for the right hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Dame Andrea Leadsom). The way that these things work in this House usually is that the Government find a Back Bencher who has credibility and make her take a measure through—it is often a “her”—on behalf of the Executive, and that is what happened last time. She has been totally sold down the river and her credibility, which was good on these issues, has unfortunately been damaged by the Executive.

Committee on Standards

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The Committee on Standards is clearly not an appeal process, because it is the Committee’s report, not the commissioner’s report, that comes before us. The commissioner is the adviser to the Committee and is supervised by the Committee.

I wish this Chamber, as my hon. Friend suggests, were the court of appeal, but as this matter has been discussed we have seen how quickly what happens in this Chamber becomes partisan. [Laughter.] Opposition Members cackle and crow, and they have made my point. It is a sadness to me that this Chamber is not, as one would hope it could be, the apolitical court of appeal for standards cases, but the Opposition have absolutely no desire to do that. We therefore need to consider an independent appeals process, as we have with the Independent Expert Panel.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I simply ask the Leader of the House a question that I ask of all Conservative Members. Does he think he would be standing here today and making these changes if it were a Labour MP?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I think the hon. Lady knows me well enough to know that the answer is yes. I would have no hesitation in doing exactly the same if I thought a Labour Member had not had a proper process and had representations of that kind.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jess Phillips]

With much respect, and having worked with the right hon. Lady for many months on the ICGS process, it is only fair, in the light of that, that I raise that today two of the people who went through that process have contacted me. They are victims of sexual harassment or assault, and they say that what is happening in Parliament today is very unedifying and makes them certain that victims will find it difficult to understand that we will not just overturn things and make it very hard for anyone to come forward about anything.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. We have worked together on this for many years. I must make clear to her that the amendment is not looking at the independent complaints and grievance scheme. As I have set out, that was established under a cross-party review, and it had all the laws of natural justice taken carefully into account in its establishment.

Today’s amendment is an opportunity to review the process for fairness, natural justice and impartiality in the system that oversees Members of Parliament. The review is proposed to take place within three months from today, at which time the specific case can be brought back to the House for reconsideration.

Independent Expert Panel Recommendations for Sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act 2015

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I wish to say from the get-go that had the case that has been discussed involved a Labour Member I would say exactly the same thing as I am about to say.

On the substantive motion, I echo the words of many about the progress that has been made on closing the loophole but only wish, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said, that it had been made sooner, because we find ourselves in a difficult position today. I very much hope we do not end up voting on party political lines, however. We cannot be whipped on these issues, and I am sure that standard has been maintained across the House. It will be a shame if we vote on party political lines on these issues rather think about the consequences of for and against. I will be voting for the amendment on retrospectivity, and many of my constituents—[Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) have something to say?

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

I said to the hon. Lady—not sufficiently sotto voce, apparently—“No doubt you’ll be voting on party political lines for the Labour amendment?”

[Jess Phillips]

Absolutely not. We have just heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda, who is highly respected on this issue, that that will not be the case, and I have not been whipped to vote for the amendment, nor has any other Labour Member. So I would welcome my hon. Friend from Lichfield—we can be friends; his home is slightly north of mine—listening to what I am about to say and to what others have said and making a decision based on that.

I heard what the Leader of the House said about making this retrospective being bad for the people who come forward, and I take it in good faith that he says that with all meaning, but I have spoken to almost every single complainant in every single case in this House from the Conservative party, the Labour party—the Greens have got off lightly in this House; I have never had a complaint against the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas)—the Scottish National party and the Liberal Democrats, and I have never heard that echoed by any of them. In fact the exact opposite is the case: there is the appalling feeling among those who have come forward that people just get away with it. I have read through every single word of any report released by the ICGS; it is a brilliant panel whose members are learned, capable, thoughtful and absolutely without question fair, but anyone who thinks they would send one of their most vulnerable constituents into a surgery in Delyn tonight has not read the report.

In the last few weeks I have repeatedly had to meet with one of my constituents, a 19-year-old girl who is going through a serious rape trial, and she needs me to tell her it is going to be okay; she needs me to say, “I’ll call you next week.” I hope no one in this House would think it acceptable for her to go and sit in front of a Member of Parliament who has been found, when a member of their staff sent them a text message to say they were struggling with mental distress, to have asked them if they wanted “fun times”.

It is unacceptable that we do not take a safeguarding role. There is nothing in any piece of legislation, whether perfect or not—and much of it is not—that allows me to safeguard that 19-year-old rape victim in north Wales. That is the fundamental point here, and I agree that the amendment is not perfect—although my constituents who pay the bedroom tax will be delighted to hear that people do not think retrospective legislation should apply to them.

[Michael Fabricant]

I am listening to my hon. Friend with great interest, but it is a little unfair to start drawing a comparison with rape, because whatever we might think of the individual concerned no one has accused him of rape.

[Jess Phillips]

Nobody made that connection until the hon. Gentleman just stood up. What I said was that it is unacceptable because that person would have nowhere to go. The reality is that someone who is vulnerable is not going to come forward to somebody who has used vulnerabilities for their own ends. I am simply using an example; I could use any example, but that is a case I have been dealing with and I would not be able to say that that person should go to a surgery in Delyn.

I do not necessarily particularly like the retrospective nature of this—actually, I do not mind, because it was a loophole that should never have existed and we are all about to vote to say that it should not have existed, apart from in this instance. I do not believe that many people could stand here and say they would feel the same way if it involved their political party, and the vote today is not a political decision for me. I understand the concerns of the ICGS chairs, but it is not a political complaint that I am making: it is a moral one, and a safeguarding one that is needed to protect our House and our reputations, and to protect our constituents.

As we walk through the Lobby we have to ask ourselves if we are comfortable with how we are voting. Young women work in my offices here—and there are, by the way, people who were expelled because of this case: the two people who felt they could not work here anymore. People get expelled because of sexual harassment in this building all the time, but those people are the staff who can no longer go on because it is just not worth it. Then they cannot get a job with another Member of Parliament because they are told, “I’ll lean on your references”. I have heard that a few times from complainants in this place.

The truth is that the system was never perfect before and it still will not be perfect. As we go through and test it, we are going to find other things. Lots of us—I can see the faces of those who have been involved in this debate for the entire time that it has been going on—want to make it so that people feel confident and comfortable coming forward. The complainants, most of whom I have spoken to, do not like that we have left this as unfinished business. They want it finished, and retrospectivity will enable that to happen. For me, it is nothing to do with politics; it is to do with what is the right thing to do—what we would want for our children working anywhere, and what we would want for our constituents.

Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

Worry not, Madam Deputy Speaker; I can say it in two minutes.

I very much welcome the Leader of the House’s comments. I do not think he expected at the beginning of his career that he would be changing the constitution quite so much; it must be a tiny bit painful. I simply want to say that a debate in the House, even with the constraints that the right hon. Gentleman has attempted to introduce, will stop people coming forward. That is what the victims, the staff and Dame Laura Cox are saying. It will simply stop people feeling confident.

As a slight rebuttal to the interveners in this debate, it is a delight to see people so concerned about MPs having employment law, but I do not remember the same voices speaking up for maternity leave, for example. In this instance, they are right there with us on the employment law issue.

On the idea that our constituents’ rights would be taken away, because they have voted for us, we are talking about the most severe cases, which will have gone through a process. Does any hon. Member honestly think that their constituents would complain if this House takes action on something that is abhorrent enough to mean expulsion? Good luck selling that on the doorstep—“I’ve been found completely wanting, but you voted for me so you should carry on getting your say.” It is nonsense, and it is not what our constituents are calling for. No constituent has been in touch with anyone in this House to say, “Do you know what? I really want my right to keep my slightly wrong ’un MP in place”—not a single one. I will be supporting my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) because that is what the victims have asked me to do.

Business of the House

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The UK recognises the right to manifest religious belief as one of fundamental importance, and the hon. Gentleman knows how much I share his concerns in this area. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech are vital and interconnected rights. Exercising those rights requires civility, restraint and judgment from everyone. The UK is committed to defending freedom of religion or belief and promoting respect between communities of different religions and those of no religion. Freedom of religion or belief is a universal human right, which intersects with many other human rights.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House is the person in charge of policies on bullying and harassment in this House, and under him and the new Speaker, we do seem to be making progress. I wondered whether he wanted to send a message today to all those who may wish to come forward to the inquiry into the current Home Secretary that they should do so without fear or favour, without any fear of their jobs, and without anything being predetermined by those on the Government Benches? They need to feel that they can trust in those on the Treasury Benches actually being able to hear them.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme within this House is of great importance, and I encourage all members of staff and hon. and right hon. Members to use it if they have complaints, because it can do things at a variety of levels. With regard to my right hon. Friend, she is one of the most brilliant Home Secretaries that this country could possibly have. She is a most determined, capable and forthright person. I should like to make it clear that she rejects the allegations that have been made against her. She is a dynamic and effective Minister. As a Back Bencher, I found that if you wanted something done, she was one of those people who simply got things done. She is a superb Minister and does a wonderful job. The Prime Minister has asked the Cabinet Office to establish the facts relating to allegations, but we in this country believe that people are innocent until there is any evidence of guilt. Although I have full support in my right hon. Friend who denies these allegations, an inquiry has been set up, and the Prime Minister has asked for the facts to be established.