Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 22nd February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

9. What steps the Church is taking to support Anglican churches in countries listed in the World Watch List 2024.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

Through the sister Churches of our communion and our linked missionary societies, the Church of England continues to provide both prayerful support and practical assistance to all parts of the Anglican communion where freedom of religion or belief is threatened or impaired. The Church works with our Government, other Governments around the world, and multilateral bodies such as the United Nations to advocate forcefully for freedom of religion or belief.

[Fiona Bruce]

Following the implementation of much of the groundbreaking Truro review, the UK is now seen as a global leader on religious freedom. However, sadly, persecution is exponentially increasing across the world, so we need to embed that work. Does my hon. Friend agree that, like Governments, religious leaders need to commit to strategic thinking, structural change and the provision of additional resources if together we are to effectively tackle this global scourge?

[Andrew Selous]

Indeed I do. On embedding that work, it is good news that my hon. Friend’s International Freedom of Religion or Belief Bill had a successful Second Reading in this House on 26 January, and that it goes to Committee in April. I am glad that the Bill is strongly supported by the Foreign Secretary, and that the Bishop of Winchester has offered to take it forward in the other place; of course, he was the person who wrote the original report. However, my hon. Friend’s challenge is fair. As our Government step up on this global challenge, the Church of England and the Anglican communion need to as well. I will pass her remarks back to Lambeth Palace.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 11th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I think the whole House is very sorry to learn what has happened to my hon. Friend’s local churches. A theft during the mass is really quite extraordinary. I will make sure that the Church of England nationally gets in touch with the Metropolitan police to pass on his concerns about that case. On general security advice, alarm sensors and attaching safes securely to the building will help, as will making sure that there is an accurate record, and pictures of valuables can help to secure their return. We certainly do not want a repeat of what my hon. Friend has experienced.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

8. What steps the Church is taking to support Christians in Cuba.

[Andrew Selous]

I commend the Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion or belief for yet again bringing this issue before the House. It is extremely concerning that the Cuban Government continue to control religious activity so tightly by using surveillance, harassment, forced exile, fines and ill-treatment of prisoners. The Church of England works multilaterally through the United Nations, the World Council of Churches and other bodies to advocate vigorously for freedom of religion or belief for everyone in Cuba.

[Fiona Bruce]

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. The Open Doors 2024 world watchlist will be launched in the Palace of Westminster on 17 January, and I urge all colleagues to attend. I anticipate that once again it will, sadly, indicate a deteriorating picture of freedom for Christians around the world as autocratic regimes seek to suppress dissenting voices.

On Cuba, I thank the Church Commissioner for sharing my concerns about reports on the worsening situation, particularly for religious leaders there. As he mentioned, many are subject to harassment, fines, forced exile, detention and ill-treatment in prison. Will he join me in calling for the release of religious prisoner of conscience Pastor Lorenzo Rosales Fajardo?

[Andrew Selous]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that the case of Pastor Lorenzo is all too indicative of a worsening climate of freedom of religion or belief in Cuba. The Church of England calls on the Cuban Government to release Pastor Lorenzo immediately, along with all those others detained in relation to the 11 July protests. The international community must continue to follow this case closely and hold Cuba to account bilaterally and multilaterally. My hon. Friend has put Pastor Lorenzo’s name on the record in this House. I also endorse everything she said about the Open Doors event in the House next Wednesday.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 16th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful, as always, to the Father of the House for his wise reflections on these matters. He is right that this has been a difficult and painful period across the Church. I very much regret that, as he does. I hope we can move forward together in love, truth and unity on these matters.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

6. Whether the Church of England has taken steps to raise awareness of recent attacks on churches and Christian communities in Manipur.

[Andrew Selous]

I am extremely grateful to the Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion or belief for again bringing the situation in Manipur to the House’s attention. Archbishop Justin has spoken about it publicly, other bishops have contacted the Indian high commissioner, and I will shortly be visiting the high commissioner myself to talk about issues in Manipur with another hon. Member, both of us being great friends of India.

[Fiona Bruce]

There have been months of violence in Manipur, and that violence continues, with Christians of different ethnicities targeted—such as the mother crying after four family members were tortured, killed, mutilated and cut to pieces on 7 November. Hundreds of churches and homes have been burnt, women have been sexually abused and organised mobs attack with impunity, allegedly using looted Government weapons. International news media from abroad find access hard. Will the Church continue to do all that it can to draw the world’s attention to this situation so that those responsible can be brought to account, the violence does not spread further, and practical help can be provided in the form of security, rehabilitation, reconstruction, and compensation for those who have suffered so much?

[Andrew Selous]

Reflecting on those awful remarks, I would suggest that it is pretty shocking to realise what our news media do not tell us much of the time. However, I can tell my hon. Friend that the Church of England is in regular contact with the Church of North India to offer all the support we can, and that we are supporting Anglicans here in the UK who have connections with Manipur. Those who suffer in Manipur are not alone, and we will continue to walk alongside them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 20th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I have very clearly heard what my hon. Friend the Father of the House and indeed the very respected Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) have just said. The Church will have heard that as well and we are of course available for meetings at any time.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

8. What recent steps the Church of England has taken to help protect freedom of religion and belief in other countries.

[Andrew Selous]

I am pleased to tell my hon. Friend, who serves with distinction as the Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion or belief, that the United Nations Security Council has recently adopted a resolution to produce an annual report on freedom of religion and belief. It was sponsored by the United Kingdom and the United Arab Emirates, and the resolution was based on the Bishop of Truro’s review and incorporates many of his original recommendations.

[Fiona Bruce]

That is indeed a very positive development. My hon. Friend will have seen another report, produced by former BBC reporter David Campanale and other FORB experts for the International Religious Freedom or Belief Alliance, which I chair, on the ongoing major violence in Manipur, India. It indicates that since early May alone hundreds of churches there have been destroyed, many burnt to the ground; more than 100 people have been killed and over 50,000 displaced; and schools and seminaries have been targeted in what looks like systematic and premeditated attacks with religion a key factor. There has been very little reporting about this. People there are calling out for help; what can the Church do to draw more attention to their cries?

[Andrew Selous]

My hon. Friend has done a great service by putting this matter on the record in the House. I am sure that she, like me, would like to see much greater reporting of these issues by the BBC and others. What she has told us is truly shocking, and I know that the Archbishop of Canterbury, who visited India in 2019 to see the challenges at first hand, remains extremely concerned that such attacks have been worsening and spreading to other minority faith communities, so I will bring my hon. Friend’s report on Manipur directly to the Archbishop’s attention.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 27th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

As always, my right hon. Friend makes an important point. He may have seen that over Easter the Latin Patriarch said:

“The frequency of these attacks, the aggressions, has become something new. These people feel they are protected…that the cultural and political atmosphere now can justify, or tolerate, actions against Christians.”

Attacks are simply not acceptable, whether against Christians or people of any other faith or no faith. I hope that what my right hon. Friend has said, as a distinguished former International Development Minister, will be heard loudly and clearly at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

2. What discussions the Church of England has had with the Church of Nigeria on the killing and abduction of Christians in that country.

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is also the Prime Minister’s special envoy on freedom of religion or belief, for the service she does in bringing this appalling issue back before the House. Since the matter was last raised with me on 9 March there have been further atrocities against Christians in Nigeria, and the issue does not get enough attention in our media, which is why I am extremely grateful to her for raising it. The Archbishop of Canterbury met the candidates in the presidential election, and stressed the need to prioritise ending inter-community and inter-religious violence, and we will continue to speak out.

[Fiona Bruce]

Open Doors reports that on Good Friday

“32 Christians were killed…in an attack by suspected Fulani militants on an IDP camp in Benue State…while people were asleep”,

and that the camp

“houses nearly 30,000…mostly Christians, mainly women and children, who…fled their villages because of Fulani militant attacks.”

Open Doors described this as part of a number of “widespread attacks” across the state, including an attack on a church in Akenawe village on Palm Sunday, when a boy was killed and three people, including the pastor, kidnapped. Does my hon. Friend agree that stronger measures are needed to protect such vulnerable communities in Nigeria? What can the Church do to call this out?

[Andrew Selous]

Frankly, words are a rather inadequate response to what we have just heard, but we must not tire of raising our voices with Nigeria, which is, after all, a Commonwealth country with which we have very good relations. As a good friend to Nigeria, I would expect our distress to be heard loudly and clearly. The Foreign Office obviously needs to keep on passing on the message.

Equal Marriage: Church of England

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Tuesday 24th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I hear what the hon. Lady says. I just repeat the apology made by the bishops and the fact that the bishops welcome same-sex couples unreservedly and joyfully. Perhaps you will allow me, Madam Deputy Speaker, to quote briefly from something the Archbishop of York said. He said that the Church expresses its

“deep sorrow and grief at the way LGBTQI+ and those they love have been treated by the Church which, most of all, ought to recognise everyone as precious and created in the image of God. We are deeply sorry and ashamed and want to take this opportunity to begin again in the spirit of repentance which our faith teaches us.”

I know that that does not go far enough, but I ask the hon. Lady to recognise the spirit in which that statement was made and the fact that it was a big change, albeit not far enough for some, that the Church made last week.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

I commend the exemplary way in which the Second Church Estates Commissioner is responding today and, indeed, the dedicated way in which he fulfils his role more widely. I also thank him for reassuring Members that he will convey the varying views of colleagues here on this issue, and I know that he knows my view on the issue. Again, more widely, I say to him that there are many here and outside this House who have invested a great deal in promoting freedom of religion or belief across the world and challenging abuses of it. In all conscience, we cannot do that in other countries if we do not also honour freedom of religion or belief at home. Does he agree?

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend and thank her for her kind words about me. May I warmly reciprocate by recognising what she does in her incredibly important role as the Prime Minister’s envoy for freedom of religion and belief around the world? She is right that freedom of conscience is universal. I get the issue when that rubs up against the centrality of the issue we are discussing today for so many people. There is and will always be a tension, but I think that her words are wise and should be listened to by the House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 8th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) for her question and my hon. Friend the Second Church Estates Commissioner for his answer. The recent independent review of progress on Truro has confirmed that there is more to be done before FORB becomes firmly embedded in the work of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. One area that was highlighted is the need for better engagement with stakeholders, among which the Church is key. Would the Second Church Estates Commissioner be willing to join me to discuss the matter at a meeting with an FCDO Minister, which has been agreed?

[Andrew Selous]

I should be delighted, and I would like to bring our bishops who lead in the area and senior officials from Church House to that important meeting.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 23rd June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

The Church Commissioners and our pensions board were some of the first institutions to take all practical steps to withdraw from their direct investments in Russia. The Church of England remains committed to a ministry of reconciliation based on love and truth, and will continue to reach out—for example, through the chaplain of St Andrew’s Anglican Church in Moscow, who is the Archbishop of Canterbury’s representative to the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

The conflict in Ukraine has highlighted the importance of many freedoms, including the freedom of religion or belief. I am very pleased that Ukraine will be represented at the conference on freedom of religion or belief here in July. What, in my hon. Friend’s opinion, would be a successful outcome to the conference for delegates such as those from Ukraine and elsewhere, where freedom of religion or belief is being violated or denied?

[Andrew Selous]

It is a really important question. The bottom line must be a reduction in global persecution, which is going up, not down. Presidents and Prime Ministers need to prioritise this issue. We need better co-ordination with civil society. We need freedom of religion or belief in education and we want young freedom of religion or belief ambassadors.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 28th April 2022 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. He will know that many churches are now eco-churches and there is a methodology to ensure that they are doing it properly. I can also tell him that the Church Commissioners have embarked on a major regenerative agriculture programme. He is absolutely right that we need to talk more about the subject to encourage young people in particular into the Church.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

2. To ask the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the Church of England is taking to promote the freedom of religion and belief globally.

[Andrew Selous]

In addition to the involvement that the Church will have with the international ministerial conference on freedom of religion and belief that my hon. Friend is helping to organise in July, we will equip bishops from across the world to respond as effectively as possible to violations of freedom of religion at the Lambeth conference later that month. The Church also continues to work with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office on the implementation of the Truro review.

[Fiona Bruce]

Does my hon. Friend agree that people may not be aware that freedom of religion or belief is one of the fundamental rights for which people in Ukraine are fighting? In areas of Ukraine such as Luhansk, where pro-Russian separatists have taken areas in the past few years, churches are now required to register to meet. All the Baptist, Seventh-day Adventist, Pentecostal and other Protestant churches have been refused registration, so they meet in a climate of fear.

[Andrew Selous]

My hon. Friend has done the House a great service in putting the matter on the record, because I do not think that it was widely known that in the areas that Russia had previously occupied in Ukraine, freedom of religion had been restricted in such a serious way. I am sure that she agrees with the Archbishop of York, who wrote in The Yorkshire Post on Good Friday that we

“must all rise up to make sure Putin does not win”,

so that what she is talking about does not continue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 27th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I agree with the hon. Lady that the Church has not done well enough in this area in the past, but I am sure that she will be pleased to learn that, on Tuesday this week, two UK minority ethnic bishops were consecrated at St Paul’s Cathedral. There are plans for more UK minority ethnic clergy to take part in House of Bishops meetings. I am sure that, like me, she will also be encouraged by the work of the Peter Stream in several dioceses, which has had great results in broadening both the ethnic and social diversity of those seeking ordination.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

3. What steps the Church of England is taking to promote freedom of religion or belief.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

It gives me very great pleasure, on behalf of the whole of the Church of England, to thank my hon. Friend for her hard work as the Prime Minister’s special envoy for freedom of religion or belief, and also to congratulate our mutual friend, David Burrows, on his appointment as her deputy. The Church looks forward to working with her over the coming months to deliver a successful international ministerial meeting in London in July, which will make a real difference to those who suffer because of their faith or belief.

[Fiona Bruce]

I thank my hon. Friend for those words and welcome the international opportunities to champion freedom of religion or belief at the ministerial conference in London in July, which I am very proud that the UK is hosting, and at the Lambeth conference. Will my hon. Friend join me in commending the motion of the diocese of Lichfield at the forthcoming General Synod that the Church of England not only prays for the persecuted Church, but that its dioceses offer support to link dioceses in parts of the world where the Church is facing persecution, and that the next Lambeth conference addresses the issues of the persecution of Christians?

[Andrew Selous]

I am only sorry that, unusually, our hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) is not in his place to hear my hon. Friend’s praise for his diocese. She is absolutely right that the Church of England’s diocesan links around the globe or Anglican Communion enable that practical help to flow to those who are suffering because of their faith while also developing a greater awareness of this horrendous persecution. I also hope that she will engage directly with the bishops from areas of persecution at the Lambeth conference later this year.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 4th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

7. What representations the Church of England is making to countries where people are persecuted for their faith or belief.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The Church of England has regular meetings with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office about countries where people are persecuted for their faith or belief, so that our Government can raise these vital issues with the Governments of the countries concerned. The Church also engages with our heads of mission, civil society groups and, where possible, with the foreign Governments in question.

[Andrew Selous]

The Church of North India and the Church of South India seek to comply with Indian law in this respect. Pressure from outside India may make the situation worse for those who receive funds. The Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office should make the Indian Government aware of the impact of such restrictions on Indian citizens. In the past, I have visited the Indian high commissioner in London with a cross-party group of MPs, all of us friends of India, to successfully raise a similar issue; my hon. Friend might like to consider such a visit.

[Fiona Bruce [V]]

Some 83% of the world’s population live in countries where freedom of religion or belief is not adequately respected. This freedom is essential for societies to secure democratic freedoms, economic development and peace, yet many people, including young people, are unaware of its importance. What is the Church of England doing to help to educate young people about the importance of freedom of religion or belief for all?

[Andrew Selous]

It is a great pleasure to reply to my hon. Friend, the Prime Minister’s new envoy for freedom of religion or belief. The Church of England strongly supports educating young people to advocate for freedom of religion or belief for everyone globally. We are working with schools in the Gambia and, indeed, in Pakistan and Bangladesh to do exactly that, to help young people be advocates for freedom of religion or belief in their schools, families and communities.

Covid-19: Freedom of Religion or Belief

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Thursday 26th November 2020 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak in these debates, but it is pretty grim that we have to keep having them. The bad news is that the situation continues to get worse and not better, which is why it is so important that we, who have the immense privilege of being able to speak out in the freedom that we enjoy in this country, do speak up for others around the world who do not enjoy the freedoms that we do.

I speak as a Christian myself, but I am here this afternoon to stick up for the Uyghurs in China and all people of the Muslim faith who are suffering persecution. In her excellent speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) spoke about the persecution suffered by Dalits, which is absolutely unacceptable. We have heard of Hindus not being treated well in Pakistan, in terms of distribution of aid and so on.

This debate is about freedom of religion or belief, which of course includes the right not to believe in God. A very good Christian friend of mine, Ben Rogers, went to visit an atheist in prison in Indonesia a few years ago—a Christian going to the support of an atheist whose rights not to believe in God were being taken away. I seem to remember they had a very interesting conversation about Mark’s gospel—I do not know whether the atheist ever came to faith, as I never caught up with the end of the story. That just makes the point that, regardless of whether someone is of faith or no faith, this debate is for them. The right to freedom of religion or belief is universal and should be applicable all the way around the world.

Having said that, I note that—as the former envoy on this issue, my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), said in the main Chamber only this morning—Christians are the most persecuted group in the world. That is something that we just need to say, because we should speak as the facts dictate. In the more privileged west, we sometimes do not realise that most Christians in the world are quite poor and disadvantaged; they are not wealthy, privileged people. They are often at the margins and not in the mainstream, and it is easier to take advantage of them. Although I think, noting our manifesto, that yesterday’s decision on aid was unfortunately a regrettable one, I am grateful that combating persecution against people on the grounds of religion or belief remains a Foreign Office priority, which is very important indeed.

It is necessary to understand the context of the debate, because we will all mention some countries, which is absolutely right. I will read out the top 20 countries on the Open Doors 2020 world watch list, because they need to be named so that people are aware. No. 1 is no surprise, because it has been there for a long time: North Korea. Following that is Afghanistan, a country where there has been significant UK involvement for many years, then Somalia, Libya, Pakistan—a major recipient of UK aid spending and a Commonwealth country to boot—Eritrea, Sudan, Yemen and Iran. India, a proud member of the British Commonwealth and a great friend to this country, is at No. 10. I am a huge friend of India, but sometimes friends have the conversations that they need to have but do not always want to have. That is certainly the case with India, as a fellow Commonwealth member. No. 11 on the list is Syria. Then there is Nigeria, which is another Commonwealth country, followed by Saudi Arabia, the Maldives, Iraq, Egypt, Algeria, Uzbekistan, Myanmar and Laos. They are the top 20, which gives an idea of the geographical spread of this issue.

As I say, things are getting worse. Some 260 million Christians live in the world watch list’s top 50 countries—that figure has increased from 2019, when it was 245 million. In countries such as Sri Lanka, where there used to be a degree of stability, an increase in destabilising violence has led to much greater difficulties for Christians. In Burkina Faso, we saw a relentless rise in violence throughout 2019, and Islamic militancy has taken a hold within the country.

The situation continues to get worse in China, which has risen hugely in the world watch list, to No. 23. More than 5,500 churches have been destroyed, closed down or confiscated during the reporting period. In 2018, China was ranked at 43, so that is a huge increase. Many people were upset not to be able to get into our own churches earlier this year and in the last month or so, but what we have had to “suffer” is simply of a different order from 5,500 churches being destroyed, closed down or confiscated.

[Fiona Bruce]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech and highlighting that churches have been closed. Even where they are open, however, Government laws restrict who can attend them. For example, it is now illegal to take a child under 18 into a church and people in certain occupations, such as the military, cannot attend. In just the last few years, the restrictions in China have been incredible. I thank him for highlighting that again in this place.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fiona Bruce and Andrew Selous

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend about the physical presence of churches, but while our buildings may be closed, the Church is very much alive and has been astonishingly present in the midst of suffering and need, providing comfort, inspiration and a great deal of practical help. Those who allege that we have done nothing or vacated the field are not correct.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

What representations the Church of England has received on the adaptation of its buildings, liturgy and worship prior to their reopening after the covid-19 lockdown.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The House of Bishops guidance issued on 5 May shows that the Church of England is committed to reopening buildings in a phased and measured manner, in accordance with the legal position. We are working with the Government and representatives of the heritage planning sector to assess the need for building adaptations related to public health.

[Fiona Bruce [V]]

Polling shows that during the current crisis, one in four adults, and one in three of 16 to 30-year-olds, have joined a religious service remotely. Does my hon. Friend welcome that, and what is the Church doing to ensure that this continues more widely, even after lockdown?

[Andrew Selous]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing those figures to the House’s attention and I welcome them very warmly, particularly the large viewing figures among younger people. She is absolutely right that the Church will need to keep up a significant online presence well after lockdown has finished.