Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Lord Fox Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 6th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hacking (Lab)]

My Lords, I have been given permission to speak in the gap, which I will do very briefly. I will start with how I come into this issue. When I first arrived in the House of Lords in 1972, there was the European Communities Act. I served on the European Community Committee, which later changed its name to the European Union Committee. Your Lordships will remember the brief intervention at the beginning of this debate by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, when the Minister was speaking. He might find it more awkward, now that he is on the Woolsack, to intervene when the Minister speaks again. However, his intervention drew attention to the work of the European committees, in this place and the other place.

What did we do? We were given drafts from the European Union of directives and regulations. We were then given the opportunity to comment. We called evidence, we wrote a report, we sent it back to the Commission in Brussels and surprisingly, you may think, a lot of our recommendations were accepted. Therefore, when the Minister said that the European committees had no power to veto the drafting—I have forgotten his exact words—that got missed out, because we did have a good opportunity to do so in looking at the drafts.

Where are we now? I have heard every speech except one. I begin by giving the score. Only 10 speakers have spoken permanently pro Bill. One or two others have hesitantly spoken pro Bill, out of a total of 58 speakers. That gives a message, does it not? My noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone said that we should not pass this Bill. I suggested to my Front Bench that we should oppose the Bill—that we should not allow it to go any further. I am afraid that I was told that this was not the policy. I then moved towards the Liberal Democrat Benches. I got more favourable noises but certainly not “We should not pass this Bill”.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

The noble Lord did not talk to the Front Bench.

[Lord Hacking (Lab)]

I am sorry. I was tempted then to move over to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and his flock, the Cross Benches. He did not say that to me, but I am a former Cross-Bencher and I think that his answer was, “I have no control over the Cross Benches”. I even thought that, under the generalship of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, there might be a cohort from the Government Benches to move that this Bill do not pass. I am afraid that I failed in all those endeavours, but that is clearly my wish.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, it has been an absorbing and long debate and I will not extend it more than a few seconds. I did not expect the Minister to embrace my regret amendment and I am pretty sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, did not expect him to embrace hers either; however, noble Lords around the House picked up on all the issues set out in both amendments and amplified them in a very strong way. The scale of the disquiet over the Bill has really been emphasised in this debate, and if the Minister was in any doubt as to the level of disquiet the Bill is generating, then that has been dispelled. But the extent of this concern is itself an opportunity for all of us to work across the Chamber to produce the amendments and the changes that the Bill needs to make it fit for purpose. We on these Benches undertake to work with everybody, across parties and across Benches, to try to make sure that in Committee and particularly on Report, those changes are brought forward to your Lordships’ House. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Lord Fox’s amendment to the Motion withdrawn.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Lord Fox Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 6th February 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Fox]

At end insert “but regrets that the Bill (1) weakens the scrutiny role of Parliament and proposes unparalleled delegated powers be given to Ministers of the Crown, (2) does not respect the constitutional role of the devolved administrations, (3) sets an arbitrary deadline for the revocation of many hundreds of laws protecting the United Kingdom’s high environmental standards, as well as employment and consumer rights and safety standards, with no indication of the rules that will replace them, and (4) imposes a cliff-edge at the end of 2023 that will create uncertainty for people and businesses”.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my non-pecuniary interests as a vice-president of the German-British Chamber of Commerce and a director of the German British Forum. I associate my thoughts with the Minister in anticipation of the two maiden speeches by the noble Baronesses.

As we have heard, the Bill seeks to make major changes to the body of retained EU law in UK domestic law. It aims to automatically revoke, or sunset, most retained EU law at the end of 2023. Any retained EU law that still applies after the end of 2023 would be renamed as assimilated law. At this point, I stop agreeing with the Minister, because this Bill hands huge powers to Ministers at the expense of elected MPs.

Your Lordships might have become immune to the Henry VIII clauses that have been propagated by Bill after Bill coming before this House, but this Bill represents a new, unprecedented level of transfer of power from Parliament to the Executive. It gives Ministers powers to legislate in areas that affect every aspect of our daily lives without any meaningful democratic input. Far from creating new high standards, as has been promised by Minister after Minister, the replacement legislation cannot increase standards: it can only keep them the same or make them lower. Moreover, the impractical timetable imposed by the sunset clause indicates clearly that this Government know that their race is run.

The reaction across key communities and committees across Parliament is very clear—I have never received so much comment from civil society as I have on this Bill. It is not only anti-democratic; it is ill thought through and badly drafted. For example, the impact assessment was roundly criticised by the Regulatory Policy Committee. Then, just last week, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee issued its verdict, which is damning. I am sure your Lordships will refer to it in more detail, but crucially, to my mind, the DPRRC highlights the false dichotomy epitomised by the Bill.

As the committee explains, the Government create such a dichotomy by saying that replacing all retained EU law purely through sector-specific primary legislation would take decades. That might be so, but the committee also notes that this is a false choice between replacing all such legislation with primary legislation and replacing all of it with regulations made by Ministers. There is another way. The choice is not all primary legislation or all ministerial edict. The advice of the Bar Council is a useful suggestion for the way we should go forward. It says of the legislation under review

“the question should be whether it remains fit for purpose: would alternative UK regulation achieve different and preferable goals, be better or more cost-effective in achieving its goals, or more certain in its application?”


In other words, this approach is to improve legislation where appropriate, which reflects the thinking on these Benches.

The Bar Council also outlines two overarching concerns regarding the Bill. First, it says, as do many others, that it is anti-democratic, noting:

“Important changes to our law should be made by Parliament after proper consultation, public debate, and scrutiny.”


This echoes many of the comments that we have heard. Secondly, the Bar Council says:

“The Bill and the attendant legal uncertainty that will follow its adoption as currently drafted will damage the UK’s reputation for regulatory stability, predictability, and competence, on which growth-promoting investment in critical sectors of our economy depends.”


I will be interested to hear what the lawyers in your Lordships’ House have to say about the need to establish brand-new case law right across the piece. For my part, I note that the Bill also grabs back power from the devolved authorities. I am sure my noble friend Lady Randerson will expand on that theme later today.

However you look at it, this is an unprecedented upheaval of the nation’s laws, yet when I listen to the Minister and his colleagues across Parliament, somehow it is depicted as a sort of tidying-up process. Indeed, Jacob Rees-Mogg described it as a “technical tidying up operation”. I do not know what tidying up looks like in the Rees-Mogg household, but this is not light dusting. To stretch a metaphor, it is the equivalent of tidying up the family nursery by completely dismantling Casa Mogg brick by brick and then putting it back together again. That is quite a task, and there is no guarantee of what comes out at the end.

In this case, what is rebuilt is up to Secretaries of State and them alone, and we all know how such grand designs end: in cost overruns, changes, delays and unexpected problems, but, unlike with the TV programme, there is no guarantee that this real and present story has any pleasing outcome—none whatever.

The tidy-up story would perhaps have a shred of credibility if Ministers were not at the same time pandering to the likes of Sir Bill Cash, who expressed the views of the ultras very well when he said that retained EU law is

“a massive ball and chain”,—[Official Report, Commons, 18/1/23; col. 419.]

implying that the UK must remove this regulation. Only last month, we also heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer talking up the need to remove, reform and take away regulations. This Bill makes all that possible without Parliament and elected MPs getting in the way, which is music to the ears of Sir Bill and his deregulating colleagues.

Of course, this process also effectively does away with much of the legislation delivered by thousands of statutory instruments passing through your Lordships’ House. As your Lordships no doubt recall, these incorporated retained EU law into British law to avoid what was then described as a chaotic bonfire of regulation as we left the EU, but it seems we delayed that bonfire a few years because a bonfire is what is now proposed in this Bill. This fire will impact a vast range of areas, including consumer rights, safety regulations of all kinds, protecting the environment and, of course, employment rights. No doubt many noble Lords will have detailed examples of these issues as we debate the Bill today.

As well as a power grab and a deregulator’s paradise, this Bill is also likely to deliver something that this Government have excelled at, which is chaos. The Bill, say Ministers, is designed to support business interests—indeed, we heard the Minister say that just now—but we hear from business that it will create chaos and poor governance, rather than stability. This will undermine confidence and will be likely to have a negative impact on business investment in the economy, something I am sure the Minister would prefer to be going in the opposite direction.

Speaking last month, Tony Danker, the director-general of the CBI, argued that scrapping these 4,000 or so EU-derived laws by the end of 2023, as facilitated by the Bill, was

“creating huge uncertainty for UK firms”.

As he put it:

“Do we really want to subject the public—and industry—to another round of mass confusion and disruption, just when we’re trying to exit recession?”


In his view, and ours, EU laws should be reviewed and, where needed, repealed as part of a wider strategy to deliver smart and better regulation. He noted that the Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, is currently reviewing how the UK can better regulate emerging technologies—for example, some of those that the Minister reeled off. The sensible thing, said Danker, would be to wait for that review and act on it systematically. We see the same attitude and response across business. The Federation of Small Businesses, the car makers and most of UK manufacturing do not want the confusion that this Bill will deliver.

Your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has worked fast, and should be credited for that, to ensure that its extensive report is available to inform this debate. The committee focuses on the sunset provisions and the lack of effective scrutiny of secondary legislation, but in a broader sense, its view is important and something I would like your Lordships to take on board. It said:

“Amending the Bill so that the shift in power between Parliament and the executive is reversed will require a great deal of thought and creativity, and commitment to the overarching aim of redressing the current imbalance of power.”


In other words, there is a lot to do to this Bill to make it acceptable. We agree that this going to be a difficult job, but we commit to doing it, because we feel it is vital to ensure that MPs maintain a grip on the legislative process rather than, as the Bill commands, hand decisions solely to Ministers.

This amendment highlights why this Bill is wrong. It is wrong because it weakens the scrutiny role of Parliament and gives unparalleled delegated powers to Ministers. It is wrong because it does not respect the constitutional role of the devolved Administrations. It is wrong because it sets an arbitrary deadline for the repeal of numerous laws that protect the UK’s environmental standards, safety standards, employment rights and consumer rights, and it is wrong because it creates uncertainty for businesses and individuals. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howard of Rising (Con)]

My Lords, Monsieur Barnier recently warned Britain not to tear up EU laws—well, he would, wouldn’t he? This should come as no surprise. For all its trumpeted advantages, the EU is performing worse than Britain. Whatever way you look at it, Britain is doing better. As Britain escapes the cloying and destructive stranglehold of EU regulations and red tape, we will leave the EU trailing even further behind. It is no wonder that Monsieur Barnier is nervous.

Many claim that Britain has suffered economically from leaving the European Union. That is nonsense, driven by those who wish for us to rejoin the European Union. Last year, Britain’s GDP grew faster than those of Germany, France and Italy. Our economy has grown by 5.7% since 2016—the same as that of Germany, the financial powerhouse of the EU. Yet, in 2022, real wages fell further in Germany than they did in the UK. While food prices are up by 19.9% in Britain, they have risen by 21.1% in the eurozone and 24.1% across the whole of Europe.

However badly the British economy might be faring in these challenging times, the European Union is doing worse. That is in relation not only to economics; our Covid vaccine development, procurement and rollout is a good example of what can be achieved free from EU restrictions. It was such a success that the EU tried to keep it for itself and to block shipments to Britain. By March 2021, Britain had vaccinated 40% of its population, while the EU had vaccinated only 12% to 14%. Just think how much more the rest of our life sciences sector and other industries can achieve when they are fully freed from the EU’s shackles.

We must support the Bill; it will help to remove the remaining EU bureaucracy from our statute book that continues to impede our economy and society. Some noble Lords may complain, as indeed they have today, that too much discretion is being given to Ministers, but we should remember that the retained EU laws only exist because edict after edict was imposed on the UK without this country being able to alter so much as a comma. Noble Lords have far more scrutiny now, and under the Bill, than they ever did when the legislation was created.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Nonsense.

[Lord Howard of Rising (Con)]

It is not nonsense; it is true.

Above all, we should celebrate that our country is a sovereign nation and be grateful that we are not subject to the 25,163 new EU laws created since we left. I urge noble Lords to support the Bill, which recognises that our country is now governed from Westminster and not by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels.

Manufacturing Post Brexit

Lord Fox Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes an important point. The Inflation Reduction Act in the US is clearly going to have big effects on the UK and Europe. We need to work together with our friends and partners in engaging with the US to try and convince them that a rise in global protectionism is really not the way to go.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, if you talk to the trade associations—Make UK for example—they will also tell you that their members and the manufacturing industry are facing massive headwinds: increased costs, broken supply chains, increased paperwork when they try to export to the EU, a shortage of skilled people and a rising cost of capital. They look over the fence to other countries: they see Governments in the European Union and in the US that are seeking to work out plans to help their industries. Then they look here and see empty words and press releases, but nothing behind them. So when are we going to have actual plans, real road maps and proper support?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord obviously wrote his question before I gave the earlier answer, because the figures that I quoted on increased manufacturing investment—more than half of manufacturers plan to increase investment in people and industry—were from Make UK, so the noble Lord is painting an unnecessarily gloomy picture.

Electric Vehicle Battery Production

Lord Fox Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know that my noble friend has personal experience of problems with his keys, and I hope they are resolved. That is not intended as an obscure comment—his is a genuine complaint, and I know it will be resolved. Of course, it is always regrettable if manufacturing is outsourced overseas, but the UK car industry has been successful in the past, and we have one of the biggest car industries in Europe. A massive programme of transformation is required in the industry as we move towards more electric vehicles, but I am sure that the industry will rise to the challenge.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister, given his intimate knowledge of the trade and co-operation agreement, will know that there is an important clause relevant to this. In 2024, the rules of origin for electric vehicles change, increasing the need for local content. Because batteries make up so much of electric cars, we cannot achieve that local content without batteries being built in this country. Will the Minister tell the House whether his department speaking to the other relevant departments in government to reopen this negotiation? Is it this Government’s intention to push back the commencement date of this clause, because without doing so, we have a really serious problem here?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Like the noble Lord, I am familiar with the rules of origin provisions of the TCA. There was a lot of debate about this at the time, and we continue to keep an eye on it. Of course, there are discussions across government. One of the reasons for setting up the automotive transformation fund was to attempt to get more of these gigafactories into the UK, and we stand ready to talk to any other prospective investors to do that.

REUL Bill: Trade Unions and Workers’ Rights

Lord Fox Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are of course continuing to do detailed work on this matter. There will be an opportunity to debate that in full in the House in the near future, and I am sure that the noble Earl will want to make his contribution on that. We will update the dashboard shortly.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I will follow on from the question from the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. How many members of the Minister’s team are currently out there working on this Bill? How many of them are looking for the lost legislation that seems to be appearing every day? How many members of his department are being used for that purpose rather than working on industrial strategy, which is what it is there to do?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not have a precise number but there are of course a number of civil servants working on the legislation that is before Parliament and has been discussed extensively in the House of Commons. Every department is engaged in looking through its EU legislation to see what is there. Obviously most of the main pieces have been identified, but sometimes there are obscure Acts and regulations that they are still discovering.

Industrial Action

Lord Fox Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I begin with a statement of the blindingly obvious—that this is an issue of the Government’s own making. Yesterday the Minister kindly wrote to me to update me on the Government’s proposals to legislate for minimum service levels, or “minimum safety levels”, as the Statement said a couple of times. I wonder what it is. Is it “service level” or “safety level”, and is there a difference between the two?

In his letter, the Minister said that:

“The Government also has a duty to the public to ensure their safety, protect their access to vital public services and to help them go about their daily lives.”


We can all agree on that, but the Government are failing in that duty. In November, close to 40,000 patients waited more than 12 hours in A&E for a decision to be admitted to a hospital department, an increase of 350% over the previous November. In the last week of 2022, more than one-quarter of ambulance patients in England queued in the back of ambulances to be admitted to A&E—that is almost 19,000 people. A week ago, the president of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine said that up to 500 people a week could be dying because of delays to emergency care, the worst he has ever seen. Yesterday an emergency medic described to the Independent newspaper how he had declared a man dead on the waiting room floor in front of his wife and members of the public after he collapsed, as the hospital had run out of beds and trolleys. These are not examples of the public’s safety being ensured, of access to vital public services being protected, or of people being helped to go about their daily lives; these are examples of the Government failing in their duty.

Strikes did not cause these situations, but the Government’s failure to prevent them are making these situations even worse. That is why this is not about public safety but about the Government playing politics to try to distract from the real issues—the economic situation that they have caused and the NHS staffing shortages. Excess deaths are at their highest levels since the pandemic peak, and the public is being put at risk every day due to the NHS crisis that the Government have presided over. The Government know that their plans will not work. What assessment have they made of the effectiveness of minimum service levels to reduce the number of strikes and disruption? The impact assessment for the Transport Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill stated that imposing minimum service levels could “increase … frequency of strikes”. Is this no longer the case? Does the Minister accept that firing highly skilled employees in essential public services would be counterproductive and would exacerbate the problems that already exist?

The Government have also been disingenuous in their arguments about bringing in these provisions. The letter that I received from the Minister also said, as has been repeated on a number of occasions by the Government, that

“this package of measures will see the UK align with many countries across the world such as France and Spain that already have minimum service levels in place, to prevent large swathes of their economies being ground to a halt by industrial action.”

While it is true that western European countries, including France, Spain and Italy, require some essential public services to keep a level of activity, in practice, when there are strikes, these levels are most often due to mutual agreements between employers and unions. In Italy, for instance, employers often defer to unions in deciding these levels. On the Paris transport network, levels are the result of voluntary agreements. The last two occasions when the French Government used their powers to force striking workers to return to work were 12 years apart. But most of all, those countries, with the laws that the Government are bringing in in this country to solve strikes, lose vastly more strike days than does Britain. Is that what the Government are really trying to achieve?

As well as referring to other countries, the Statement referred to the International Labour Organization, yet the ILO requires compensatory measures and an independent arbitrator, as well as saying that minimum service levels can happen only in services when

“the safety of individuals or their health is at stake”.

Yet the Bill that the Government have introduced does not contain those measures and allows regulations to be made in relation to transport, education services and the Border Force.

If the Government know that they cannot make these regulations without breaching ILO rules, what is this other than performative politics? What the Government should be doing is sitting down at the negotiating table and hashing out long-overdue deals that are needed to maintain our vital public services. Does the Minister accept that the Government’s failure to negotiate with workers is worsening, and will continue to worsen, the performance of public services, including adding to waiting times in the NHS? When will they return to the negotiating table to try to clear up the mess they have made?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for taking questions on the Statement and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, on his contribution. I will try to focus my questions and comments on how the Minister expects this to work.

The coming Bill is interesting because it introduces the concept of a minimum service level. Of course, in the Bill, the actual levels of service are not defined—true to form, this Government will come back with secondary legislation to do that. Can the Minister give your Lordships’ House at least an idea of what criteria will be used to come up with the minimum service levels? Will they be the same right across the country or will, for example, rural and urban areas have different minimum service levels? These are important issues.

There is, however, a wider issue around service levels. Taking yesterday as an example—when there were no strikes, as far as I am aware—can the Minister tell your Lordships’ House whether the tens of thousands of people waiting weeks to see their GP were getting a minimum service level? Were the people across Britain waiting sometimes tens of hours for ambulances getting a minimum service level? Were the people trying desperately to travel by train from Manchester to London experiencing a minimum service level? This is the baseline from which this legislation is working, and it is clearly not good enough. The public expect and deserve higher minimum standards than they are getting today, and on every day when there are no strikes.

Instead of addressing this issue, which I would define as the Government’s duty of care, the Bill passes the onus on to individual workers in these sectors. It is not the Ministers, the bosses or indeed the union leaders who will be sacked if the Government’s standards are not met; it is individual workers. I want briefly to illustrate this. If the Bill is enacted, the Secretary of State will impose a minimum service level. In the event of a strike, employers will be required to identify named employees who will be mandated to work via a work notice. At that point, these individuals are deprived of their right to strike on pain of probable dismissal. That does not square with the Secretary of State’s statement that this does not infringe the right to strike.

I know the Minister, and I am sure that, in his heart, he knows that a different approach is needed to deliver the service levels we need in this country. First, as was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, we need to plug the huge hole in our public sector workforce. We literally need hundreds of thousands of new people in order to deliver the basic service levels we require. A serious Government would be working with everyone in every part of these vital sectors. Can the minister tell your Lordships’ House one thing in this legislation that will help to build a bigger, better workforce in this country? Of course, a necessary first step is sorting out the pay disputes.

Turning to the NHS, the Government have absented themselves from negotiating the pay round, citing the inviolability of the pay review body. This position would have more credibility had not the Government suspended the body as recently as 2018, instead negotiating directly to deliver the 2018-21 pay agreement. What has changed since 2018 that means the Government will no longer directly negotiate with workers on this issue?

The original Bill, over the summer, targeted only rail. As we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, the impact assessment identifies more than a dozen risks and unintended consequences—not least, I hasten to add, the proliferation of sub-strike action such as overtime bans, which would cripple the NHS and is already crippling our rail services. The current Bill steps beyond the Government’s manifesto commitment and adds five more sectors. Given the differences between the two Bills, when will the Government publish an updated impact assessment?

Finally, I am sure it is extremely frustrating running a public service in the United Kingdom, but can the Minister tell us how many bosses actually asked His Majesty’s Government for this legislation? Can he point to any appetite for this beyond the Back Benches of his own party? As I said, we will take a practical approach to scrutinising this legislation when it comes to your Lordships’ House.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Lennie and Lord Fox, for their contributions. I start by placing on record the Government’s thanks to public sector workers, especially those working in the NHS. Their work is greatly valued and I know that all noble Lords here today are very grateful for the work they do.

Let me say in response to the noble Lords that while the pressure on the public sector is of course recognised—there are unprecedented strains, particularly on the health service at the moment—it is regrettable that multiple unions have taken the decision to strike. The public are understandably worried about access to emergency care and they are tired of the ongoing chaos on many parts of our public transport network. The Government want to resolve these disputes where that is possible and Ministers across government have been meeting union representatives this week to find meaningful ways forward that are fair and reasonable to the taxpayer. While these conversations continue, it is sensible and reasonable for the Government to take steps to reduce the disproportionate impact that strikes can have on the wider public and on our economy, and that is why we have taken the decision to introduce this legislation.

Let me be clear: we hope that in many cases we will not have to use the powers the Bill gives us. Where unions reach voluntary agreements—as is the case with the nursing unions at the moment—to provide adequate minimum levels of service that keep people safe and help the economy and society to function, we will not regulate those sectors. However, it is absolutely right that the Government have the power to act in key services where that does not happen.

The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, raised the issue of international compatibility, particularly with the ILO. I can reassure noble Lords that as part of the introduction of this legislation, the Secretary of State signed a statement of compatibility with the ECHR, and a memorandum to this effect has been published. I will place a copy of that memorandum, in addition to the delegated powers memorandum, in the Libraries of the House. Since the noble Lord quoted the ILO, let me quote the ILO back to him. The ILO itself states that minimum service levels can be a proportionate way of balancing the right to strike with the right to protect the wider public, and that is exactly what we are doing.

Let me address head on the issue raised by both noble Lords, Lord Lennie and Lord Fox, with their fairly alarmist statements about it somehow being the Government’s policy to sack workers as part of this legislation. I clarify for the record and for noble Lords that that is not the case. It is a ridiculous exaggeration. When it comes to the position of this Government on the number of key workers, we are in favour of increasing them, not sacking them.

Both noble Lords referred to other European countries. There is a certain irony in this, because normally, both noble Lords press me to adopt what other European countries are already doing—they normally quote it, particularly the Liberal Democrats, as an example of what we should be doing in this country. It is the case, although noble Lords might not like it, that many European countries and other global democracies have minimum service levels. They are facing precisely the same challenges and protecting the wider public from disproportionate impacts of strikes. In fact, many of those countries ban strikes completely in blue light and border security areas. Of course, we are not proposing to do that. This legislation does not ban the right to strike. The Government will always defend workers’ ability to withdraw their labour, but in line with what the Liberal Democrats normally ask us to do, this legislation actually brings us into line with what many other modern European countries already do.

Both noble Lords asked me about implementation and the detail of how these would work in practice. We will consult on how they will be applied to rail, ambulances and the services. These consultations will outline the proposed approaches for MSLs in each service—they will differ across different services, of course—and I will endeavour to have published during the passage of this legislation each consultation expected to be published. I look forward to engaging with noble Lords on this issue in more detail during the passage of the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, suggested that the Government should focus on resolving the disputes with the unions and do away with this legislation. As the Prime Minister promised last week, we are building a better future for the country by halving inflation this year, growing the economy and getting our national debt down. If we met all the inflation-busting demands of the unions, we would be shooting the economy in the foot and making life harder for other workers up and down the country. The answer to his point is that we are doing both. Of course, we will continue to talk and negotiate with the unions, but it is right that we take action to make sure that the public are protected where necessary.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I welcome the noble Lord saying that he regrets the strike action—I think that is the first time I have heard anybody from the Opposition say that they regret the inconvenience that has been caused to the public. I take in good heart his other comments; of course we will proceed with care and caution, and with full consultation. However, we are very clear that this action needs to be taken in some sectors, because the public are getting tired of the disruption caused by the actions of one or two unions to their ability to go about their daily business.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I will follow up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clarke. It is quite clear that the Government will not be setting the personnel levels that companies will need to deliver the service levels that the Government are setting. It will be up to local management to decide how many people they need. The point that the noble Lord made was not addressed by the Minister; perhaps Second Reading will be a chance to go through that in more detail.

The Minister will have to address the point about sanctions. What happens if named individuals on work orders refuse to work? He says, “We have no intention to sack people” but essentially, if someone refuses to do something, that is grounds for sacking. There are two sides to this, and when we come to Second Reading, the Minister will have to be able to answer these sorts of questions on the operational detail that I was talking about. Can he undertake to come back on Second Reading with that level of detail so that we can move forward sensibly on this legislation?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said in my short remarks, the overall minimum service level will be determined in regulations approved by Parliament, and the noble Lord is right that the implementation of that—in other words, how many workers will need to turn up to deliver that service level, plus, presumably, a few for reserve, et cetera, for those who might be sick on the day—will need to be set by individual employers on the ground in response to the different circumstances that will apply. The ultimate sanction is the same as for anybody who does not turn up to work now: they are in breach of their contracts and they will lose their right to unfair dismissal protection.

Prime Minister: Trade Unions

Lord Fox Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It will not surprise the noble Lord to know that I do not agree with him. The reason we have independent pay review bodies is to try to take the politics out of these settlements. The Government have said that we will accept those recommendations in full. Frankly, some of the increases that are being asked for are unaffordable.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, over the weekend several senior government spokespeople have justified not increasing the offer on public sector pay because it would fuel inflation. I believe that the Minister here is more economically literate than those spokesmen, because he knows well that public sector pay does not fuel inflation, neither is it driving private sector pay—you have only to look at the discontinuity now. Will the Minister please disabuse his colleagues of this specious argument? Will he urge them to sit down with the nurses and settle this dispute?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course we want to see the action ended and the dispute brought to an end, but it remains the case that, if above-inflation pay rises are accepted, that will mean less money for the services that everybody wants to see expanded. There is a limited pot of money that can go only so far.

Employment Policies

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Tuesday 6th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord will be unsurprised to know that I completely disagree with him. The Government are confident that all our measures are in full compliance with our international obligations. We remain in full compliance with ILO conventions. We are trying to balance the understandable right to strike, which I know that the noble Lord is very proud of—but I also want to support the right of people to go to work, if they wish to do so.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, there is another area that the Minister could address for your Lordships’ House. I had a meeting this morning with about 20 representatives of manufacturing businesses, and one thing that they were anxious to highlight was the failure of the apprenticeship levy. When the levy was brought in, 150,000 young people were going in to become apprentices; that number is now below 50,000. The first way in which to solve a problem is to admit that you have a problem. Will the Minister admit that there is a problem, and will he undertake to solve it?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. It is slightly unrelated to the point under discussion, but I would be happy to get back to him in writing.

Newport Wafer Fab

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Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, obviously, there is a limit to what I can say about this, but I will endeavour to be as helpful to the House as possible. I certainly can confirm to the noble Lord that the review did take place and was one of the factors that the Secretary of State took into consideration when he made his decision. It was made in a quasi-judicial manner and the Secretary of State considered that a risk to national security had arisen from the trigger event, which is why he made the order that he has.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I think we welcome this decision. When it comes to the National Security and Investment Act, the Minister is the best authority because, while Secretaries of State have come and gone, the Minister took it through this House and he is still here. Perhaps he can add some perspective, because at the outset of this case the Minister stood up and said that the technology in Newport Wafer Fab was not worthy of being called in through the National Security and Investment Act. Over time, that has evolved, so what has changed? Is it the Government’s view of Newport Wafer Fab or the Government’s view of China?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not sure that I said that, but I will certainly look back through the record. This has been going on for a long period. The Secretary of State has taken into account all the relevant factors, as he is obliged to do under the legislation. The noble Lord is right; we debated it extensively, but this decision has been taken purely on the grounds of national security. That is what the Secretary of State is required to do. That is what he has done, taking all the relevant factors into consideration, and he has made a final order in this case.

Government Departments: Communication with Industry and Commerce

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Monday 14th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am happy to agree with the noble Lord. The CBI was one of the organisations that my right honourable friend the Business Secretary met only last week.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, in his Answer, the Minister used “consistent”. However, if you talk to businesses, that is not a word that they use. They use “inconsistent”. There has been a rotating door of Business Secretaries, a rotating door of Prime Ministers, and an ever-changing policy landscape. How does the Minister expect businesses to know where to invest and how to invest when there is no consistent policy from the Government?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is wrong. There is consistent policy from the Government. In a whole range of areas of policy, life continues as it did. There are of course unique challenges facing us at the moment—the headwinds of Covid, the energy crisis, et cetera—but this Government have the solutions and will carry on implementing them.