Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Wyld Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wyld (Con)]

My Lords, first, I am delighted to see my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham back in his place. I found his historical perspective, and that of my noble friend Lord Moylan, incredibly interesting and helpful. I know that he will not mind me pointing out that I spotted a few of us noble Lords who were not born when my noble friend Lord Young was on his original committee. I point that out not to be mischievous but because I find it shocking to think that we are still standing here today, in many cases walking through the same issues and trying to get a better understanding. But here we are, and I am delighted to be here.

I warmly welcome the scope and ambition of the Bill, and add my thanks to all those campaigners who have, in many cases, revisited the most harrowing time of their lives in their determination to help others. They may have done it publicly or privately, but we owe each one our gratitude.

We are all aware, particularly today, that for too many, the words “Stay at home” mean far more than boredom, inconvenience or even strain. For too many—clearly it is not every family; many families are loving and happy—those words will evoke terror. The voices we should worry most about are often the ones we do not hear, and I know that the Government are acutely aware of this when they take these terribly hard decisions in the face of the pandemic.

The Government have shown admirable determination to improve the Bill at every opportunity and listen to constructive challenge. I think the debate has been 100% constructive tonight. I particularly welcome the recognition that children who witness domestic abuse are also its victims. I realise that we are at the stage of the evening when we are repeating ourselves on the issues, but I do not care tonight, because these things need to be said over and over again.

My noble friends Lady Bertin and Lord Polak, and many others, have spoken compellingly on this. For my part, I vividly remember working as a Samaritan volunteer, some years ago, when we used to hear first-hand the effects of growing up witnessing domestic abuse—sometimes from children and sometimes many years later. We know that we need to break cycles, and I strongly believe that we need to send a message to young people in particular that cycles can be broken. It is with this in mind that I share the concerns that have been expressed about the need to ensure that specialist services are available across communities, including taking an evidence-based approach to perpetrator programmes. I will listen very carefully to the Minister’s comments on that.

I put on record that I am hugely grateful to all who have sent me briefings, and I am so sorry that time does not allow me to address every issue. However, I would like to shine a light on one other overlooked group, which is the elderly. Other noble Lords have referred to this issue. Many elderly people are now in an impossible situation: they are in danger outside and they are in danger at home. I know my noble friend is well aware of the issues surrounding data collection, and on wider strategy, the Government have had lots of constructive suggestions, including named GPs for those identified as frail. I just ask whether any progress has been made on that.

Finally, my noble friend Lady Newlove made an outstanding speech and has demonstrated with clarity and precision why the law as it stands does not deal adequately with the appalling offence of non-fatal strangulation. Others far more expert than I have commented on this but the depth and breadth of the support that she has gained and the fact that people have really thought about it leaves me with no hesitation in giving her my support. I very much hope that the Government will do the same.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Wyld Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

I look forward to participating in a later group on the impact of the internet on perpetuating misogynistic attitudes. But, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bertin, said, it is time that the perpetrator, not the victim, was expected to change their behaviour.

[Baroness Wyld (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I wish to speak briefly in support of Amendment 167, in the names of my noble friend Lady Bertin and others. Given that we are discussing multiagency strategies, I declare my interests as a non-executive member of the board of Ofsted and a non-executive director of DCMS.

My noble friend gave a powerful and comprehensive speech. It is quite right to push us to change the narrative from “Why doesn’t she leave?” to “Why doesn’t he stop?” What has really come across today is the need for urgency here. My noble friend is right to urge the Government to take a definitive step to help this happen and for it to be reflected in lived experience.

As we have heard, it is completely unacceptable for perpetrators to move from one victim to another when evidence exists that they can be stopped with early intervention. We have a huge bank of evidence showing what works, and I am grateful to all those who briefed me—in particular, the Drive initiative—and to those in your Lordships’ House who have brought their own examples to the Floor. Seeing who follows me in the list, I am sure that we will hear more of those today.

We have heard consistent calls for a national approach to quality assurance, from better-tailored information on data sharing to workforce training, long-term funding and campaigning. The Government have, rightly, emphasised the need for an evidence-based and precise approach to a perpetrator strategy, but let us not drag our heels. The concern that has come across today is that we do not want to end up with the situation where everyone agrees with each other but nobody takes the lead and gets this done. On that note, I very much look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to be able to support all these amendments but particularly Amendments 167 and 177B. I too pay tribute to all those who have written to me and have frankly explained not only their policy approach but, in the case of individuals, the personal tragedies that they have experienced. I may not have replied to them all, but I have been deeply moved by many of them. My sense is that we all want the same things with this Bill, but some take a more binary approach than others. I try to avoid that in order to look at what I hope is the larger picture and wider criteria, but I apologise in advance if I fail.

My starting point is that with domestic abuse there is already a relationship in which the parties to it mostly come together voluntarily and often remain so in a sufficiently close and prolonged arrangement for children to arrive on the scene. Whatever happens thereafter, there are thus emotional and psychological bonds, some of which remain very important and for children are often formational, even when the original adult relationship has started to go wrong or failed altogether.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, set out very many points—too many for me to say, on each individual one, how much I agreed with him. But, however justified in any given case, simply providing for some variant of justice in which perpetrators are branded as intrinsically evil or criminal and resource is focused primarily on due process and the support and protection of victims and survivors does not, in my view, amount to a comprehensive policy response. So I was very glad to learn both from my local police and crime commissioner and again from the Minister herself in a briefing last month about the £7 million provided last year to police and crime commissioners for perpetrator programmes.

The PCC, in particular, was enthusiastic in her explanation of the hugely beneficial effect that even a relatively modest allocation of £150,000 or so could have in pressing forward with a perpetrator programme and the disproportionate advantage that would flow from this intervention as compared with what I might term the “picking up the pieces after the relationship” debacle. Of course, with the largest force areas, the available sum might be a drop in the ocean but, for all that, it is welcome. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bertin, said in speaking to her amendment, it is not ongoing but a one-off. That needs to be addressed.

In all this, I have in mind that every perpetrator may cast a shadow over the lives of maybe six victims—at least, that is the factor that I most frequently hear. But, beyond that, it is the pain, the dislocation of lives and the damaging effects on adults and particularly children that concern me, plus the potential for abused partners to fall into some other similarly abusive relationship, just as unaddressed abusive behaviour might simply be allowed to repeat itself in an endless cycle of wretchedness. We know that these things have social and emotional costs—they lurk behind crime statistics, in judicial activities, in the all-too-limited resources of the voluntary and charitable sector, in the workplace, in health outcomes and in children’s long-term attainment.

To intervene and break this cycle, the Bill must now provide for a national framework for perpetrator programmes; it seems to me that the Long Title readily admits it. The Government clearly readily admit it to the tune of £7 million as an admission of need. We have heard much about the architecture of the Bill and I agree that it needs to keep focused, but all the focus in the world will be of little help if it is so narrow that the principal facet of what is, after all, a process involving human relationships of the most complex kind is overlooked. In the Bill we have motive, opportunity and the means to effect change. We should do it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bertin, referred to current programmes, such as MAPPA, and their success. I suggest that a carrot and stick approach may be better than simply stigmatising perpetrators. I agree with other noble Lords that this is very much a two-way street that we need to look at. She also referred to the need for coherence—for sustainable and reliable funding and the wins all round in the effects on society for perpetrators, victims, victims’ families and survivors that would flow from that. I fundamentally agree.

At the end of the day, we have a relationship, usually between two people, each of whom makes a personal investment in that. Were we to be successful in making perpetrator programmes not only universal according to some sort of coherent framework and leadership referred to by the noble Baroness, but also part of the normal, non-criminalised mainstream service provision, then more relationships might remain functional and a significant proportion of perpetrators might cease to abuse. That would have implications for the frequency and severity of victimhood and victim and survivor experiences.

Amendments 167 and 177B propose in their various ways what is fundamentally the right way forward. This needs to be co-ordinated and driven as a national strategy by Government. I trust that the Minister will see the merits of this and accept that there is now an unanswerable case for adopting the principles behind these amendments.